>> the supreme court issuing a clear message to the state of alabama today that essentially boil down to we're not doing this again. the court rejecting requests from state officials and their attempt to sidestep tweeting a second black majority congressional district in the state, which the court ruled back in june that they must do. the justices denying that request for intervention from the state, just a single

sentence, no recorded vote, no dissent. alabama has been ordered to come up with two majority black districts, or something quite close to, that better represent the states 27% black population. the map that republicans offered still only had one majority black district. but with this decision today, alabama will now have be on its way to having any map and have the 2024 election, something that could have national implications. thank you so much for joining us for this busy news hour tonight. cnn prime time with abby phillip starts right now. ♪ ♪ ♪ tonight, we are going to play for you, jake tapper's entire interview with cassidy hutchinson. she is the former trump aide, whose testimony may end up leading to his conviction. she discusses her tumultuous

time in the white house, her biggest fear about the trump's second term, and her message to anyone who is still loyal to the former president. but first, we have two breaking stories that are unfolding right now. good evening, everyone abby philip. and, the very first one that impacts all americans tonight, the united states government is just days away from a crippling government shutdown, and a collision course is a merging. the senate has cut a bipartisan deal, to keep the government open until november. and that includes more than six billion dollars in aid to ukraine. but, it does appear that that bill is dead on arrival in the house. as you know now, republicans have been fighting with each other. hard-liners want drastic cuts to spending, which includes more money for border security, and less for ukraine. and house speaker kevin mccarthy, who is by the way, fighting for his job, says that the houses counter offer will include a border security package. but for some, including congressman matt gaetz, that is not enough. now remember, if the government shuts down, key agencies and national parks will all be closed. servicemen and women will be at

risk of not being paid, and every day life will be impacted for all americans, from food inspections to lines at the airport. and joining me now is congressman ralph norman, he is a republican from south carolina. congressman, thank you for joining us tonight. speaker mccarthy, just a few moments ago in a presser, said that it was a mistake for the senate to include even more funding for ukraine. he is dismissing that stopgap measure that they put on the table. he says that he is going to put forward a republican bill with border provisions, likely as soon as friday. and he is daring hard-liners to vote against it. what do you say to mccarthy tonight? >> well, i agree with what the senate put forward, with 6.5 billion for ukraine, 5.2 billion, from what i understand, for disaster relief. and then, the same spending through november 15th of this year, which is totally unacceptable. and along with all of the other spending, that has been in place.

so that is a complete, dead on arrival, i hope in the house. as far as what speaker mccarthy had, we will see with the final numbers are, and on what level he -- but we will see. >> but do you support a stopgap measure to keep the government funded for a shorter period time, until they have more time to consider some of these other, longer term spending bills? >> well there's got to be, what we're going to agree to, and what amount. we are going to learn more about that tomorrow, but look, this is all about, we are doing this the right way. -- we are debating the individual appropriation a bills, as we should be. this is all about getting this country back on track. you hear a lot of different things, that the democrats are saying. they don't mind spending this country into oblivion, and we just have a basic disagreement on that. >> you said a few days ago that the chances of a shutdown were

100 percent. today, where do you think things stand? >> well, we will find out this week. >> we only have about four or five more days now, it's not a lot of time. >> no it's not, but the fact is we are debating bills and we've got them on the floor. we've got 400 amendments, which has really been unheard of, in the previous reign of miss pelosi. but we will see, it's. when the shutdown, we have to remember that the government shutdown, they shut businesses down, back during the covid virus, for a year and a half, and shut children all schools. so now, if we shut the government down, the pressure has still, has to be on the passage of these appropriation bills, in a conservative way, and one that gets this country back on a firm financial footing, which we are not on right. now >> so, your colleague, congressman matt gaetz, he is once again today threatening to oust speaker mccarthy. listen to what he said.

>> the one thing i agree with my democrat colleagues on, is that for the last eight months, this house has been poorly led. and we own, that and we have to do something about it. and you know what, my democrat colleagues will have an opportunity to do something about that too. and we will see if they bail out, our failed speaker. >> do you agree with congressman gaetz there? >> well, here is what i agree with you on. i think, the september 30th date has always been there, october one has been the start of the new budget year, for 240 years, as far as i remember. and i don't remember that far back, but the bottom line, we should -- spending, and get the budget and the, priority has just not been a priority for the speaker, and i fault him for that. now he will have to decide where he wants to go from here. what is he going to take a stand on? and is he going to fight for what the senate sends back?

and we have a lot to fight for, and we control the purse strings, not the senate. >> do you think that this issue is enough to force a vote to help oust speaker mccarthy? >> well that depends on what he puts forward, tomorrow and what he wants to do, as far as -- >> and, we're going to have to have some honest discussions to see. and i don't know, because we don't know the numbers yet. that's what we've asked for since july 10th, when the free time caucus sent a letter, and that we still don't know with the degree man is going to be. we went to one point 47, they were talking a 5. 2 trillion. so, we will see. but what the senate has, is totally out of reality. and i hope the leadership will fight this tooth and, they'll and get them back something that is conservative, and far less than what they are proposing. >> well both sides, the senate and the house, still incredibly far apart tonight, as we speak here. congressman ralph norman, thank

you for joining us tonight. >> my pleasure. >> and our other big story tonight, donald trump's entire business and political career, has been built on the illusion of success. but tonight, his business empire is now at risk. a judge in new york, finding that the former president and his two adult sons are liable for fraud, and canceling the trump organization's business certification in the state of new york. the judge says that trump made false financial statements, for a decade, inflating there were, the flat defrauding pranks, and, interim receiving better loan terms in insurance costs. all of this, just days before the new york attorney general's suit is set to go to a trial. joining me now is someone who knows a lot about the trump organization, barbara raz. she's a former executive vice president at the trump organization, and she is also the author of tower of lies, what my 18 years working with donald trump reveals about him. barbara, can donald trump, and the trump organization, survive this ruling?

>> well, i've been asked that question so many times. logically no, it doesn't look like it. but somehow, he pulls things out of the air. i don't think, i don't think the trump organization is going to survive this one. but, -- >> you were in charge of the construction of trump tower, that iconic building in new york. the judge says that trump's triplex apartment in trump tower was overvalued by between 114 to 207 million, due to trump saying that the apartment was three times its size. does that surprise you at all? >> does that, no, no not not at all. because he says, everything about trump tower was a blown up, vick blown up, life sold the most, apartments got the highest lions. everything was correct, whatever he thought he could get away with. and you could get away with

anything, it seemed. >> did you see evidence -- >> so he -- >> did you see evidence of these kinds of deceptive practices when you were a part of the trump organization? >> yeah, yeah, i did. but it's kind of like a different -- it wasn't on the level of criminality or -- crimes if you want to call them, civil crimes, it was more like, something really didn't -- lives, but they were something that someone was going to sue him for. >> can you give us an example? >> well -- the materials in the building, in the apartments. he would say that he had these parquet wood floors. they were crap. i mean, i'm sorry to say this, they were glued down, you know, one foot by one foot tiles. he said the marble in the bathrooms was parody ceo, and it was a glamorous marble, made,

up not real marble. and that goes on and on and on. but who's going to call him up? in the beginning, most people changed or -- so it didn't really matter. >> that's really fascinating. >> as far as the value -- >> yeah. >> i just going to say, as far as the value, i mean, he tripled the value of everything. you know, he lied. we would sell uninformed dollars, he would say we sold it for three. >> there's also the issue of mar-a-lago and all of this, overvalued by 2300%. do you think, just taking a step back here, that were it not for these deceptive practices, would donald trump be where he is today in terms of his political standing, in terms of its financial wealth? >> it's not only these deceptive practices, it's lying on a very large scale. and you can see it in his presidency. he got away with this, so that

he moved on to this. and it was the same thing we're talking about now. he could get away with over valuing something by 20%, one hunted percent, 1000%, he just kept doing it. >> barbara reds, that's very interesting, thank you. you are someone who is inside this organization working closely with trump for all those years, appreciate you joining us tonight. >> my pleasure, thank you. >> and coming up next, jake tapper's entire interview with former trump aide cassidy hutchinson and her candid revelations about what she saw inside of the white house. what mark meadows did and why she says that trump is the single greatest threat to our democracy. that's next.

>> tonight, former white house aide cassidy hutchinson's warning in a new cnn interview that a second trump term beat more dangerous than the first, telling our own jake tapper that the former president is, quote, the gravest threat to american democracy. here is part one of our are sit down with cassidy hutchinson. >> cassidy, thanks so much for joining us. appreciate it. >> thanks for having me, jake. >> so a few years ago, donald trump, president trump, was a man you described in your book as adoring. and now, you are doing this book tour in what you tell the story from childhood to your greatest testimony. and you are basically warning the world that he shouldn't be president ever again.

a, that's quite a journey and b, why shouldn't he be president again? >> i'd like to start by saying i came for to testify because, one, that's what i was obligated to do. i swore an oath to protect and defend the united states. and that was what i was subpoenaed to do. and i was at a point where i had not been completely forthcoming with the committee charged with investigating the most grave attack on the united states in recent history. so i came forward not with the goal or anything other than providing people with the truth. i've seen how people are evading the truth and how people are not holding themselves accountable. and it was my duty as american, as it is every american's duty, to hold themselves to the oath that they swear. >> yeah. but right now, the american people are going through another election, or are about to, and we, donald trump is leading in the polls when it comes to the republican primaries, even in some polls

when it comes to a head to head matchup with president biden. the other day, trump suggested the chairman of the joint chiefs of staff, the outgoing chairman, general mark milley, committed treason. he suggested that capital punishment would be on the table, or should be on the table. when you see a message like that, how seriously do you take it? i mean, milley has suggested people, according to the atlantic magazine, that he expects that of donald trump's elected president again, that donald trump will try and go after him. when you see that, do you think he means that? or do you think that's just hot air. >> i do. >> i do, you think he means it? >> i do believe that he means it. but what i think i'd like to say to this is that for years we have not held donald trump accountable to the things that he says. and when he says those things and when he strikes, when you strokes those vitriolic --

in people who have had profound careers defending our democracy, like general milley, we need to take him seriously. people have been holding him accountable for the past few years, but obviously not accountable enough. because we are in a position right now where it's looking more likely that he could be the republican nominee. and he has also been indicted four times. to me, it is sad were in this place as a country when we're looking at somebody who has executed this horrible assault on our democracy and we're continuing to give this person a platform. that's not what we should stand for as americans. and i think donald trump is the most grave threat that we will face too our democracy in our lifetime, potentially in american history. >> when he says things like he wants to use the department of justice to go after his enemies, when he says things like he did on truth social the other day, that he wants to curtail freedom of the press for certain channels and that sort of thing, you take him literally, you think he

actually means it, in a second term, he would do that? >> i think donald trump in a second term does not have any, would not have guardrails. i think we saw that at the end of the first term with how things played out after he lost the election. he violated our constitution in multiple ways. it is completely fine to file lawsuits in the country, or in states. >> fine, of course. >> but what is not okay is when you threaten on salt to the constitution and our institutions of government. i would not put it past donald trump, jake, to put those institutions of government in a worse position than they were in during the first time. >> so as you noted, he's now facing 91 felony charges in four different investigations. he's been indicted four different times. you've testified in from the georgia grand jury. you are interviewed by federal investigators overseeing the january 6th investigation and indictment and the classified documents case and indictment. how do you feel about the charges he's facing?

i know you're not a lawyer, but i know that you also read these documents. when you look at the evidence and then when you hear his excuses or's defense, i mean, do you think he's guilty? >> i want to hold off on providing my personal opinions on that, and only because -- and with the platform that i think we should all look towards and the platform at least that i'm trying to adopt in this era of my life is it is sometimes -- what is going on behind closed doors at the justice department. i am confident in our system of government, and i think that we have to leave it to the investigators to be able to collect the facts. and that is why i came forward and testify truthfully to all investigations. i think that if he is convicted, then that is a conviction we need to accept as americans, and we need to trust our institutions of government. but i will say this too, jake, these are the people that are

running our government at the end of the trump administration. >> yeah, the most loyal of loyal trump people. >> the most loyal of loyal trump people, and who have also been indicted, some people, some of these individual have also been indicted. we have to think, what would a second trump term look like? but these be the people that are running the government, the people that currently facing indictments? who would work for donald trump in a second term? that's the question we need to be asking ourselves going into this election season. >> while, let's talk about mark meadows, who was the white house chief of staff. and you were basically the chief of staff to the chief of staff. you write in your book that in one of the first conversations you had with meadows in the white house, he said to you, cass, if i can get through this job and managed to keep him out of jail, meaning donald trump, i will have done a good job. a, when he said that, do you think he meant that literally? and b, do you think that your testimony might actually result in donald trump going to jail? >> in that moment when mark

said that to me, it was more of a wake up call, a moment where i sort of felt frightened for the first time, but also concerned about mark. you know, when you're in this job, and i think people, it's difficult to put that into words, -- forthcoming an honest about the positions you occupy in government. and especially in the trump administration, and 2020, every day was a hair on fire day. we are struggling to stay afloat but most of us were drowning. when mark said that that day,, i was alarmed. it was one those moments for me where i thought i had a grasp on what's going on, and i realized i didn't. but i did take mark seriously in that moment. and in that moment for me in my service to mark, i wanted to make sure that i did whatever i could to help mark achieved his goal. >> keep trump out of jail? >> correct, but that's also something i work through a lot in the book, which is it's not the staff the job to control a president who might end up in prison i think that's when the

more unfortunate things that we have sort of gravitated to as a society, where this is normal now. it's not normal, but it has been perceived as being normal now. >> well, the other question was do you think that your testimony might ultimately result in donald trump going to prison? >> i came forward to testify with the information that i knew, and most the information that i knew could be corroborated by other people. i hope that what i testify to would cause other people to come forward and testify truthfully. >> so you'd medals were close at one point, i know. and in the georgia case, as you noted, kind of, you alluded to, he is now facing criminal charges. he's pleaded not guilty. let's show the mug shot of mark meadows. when you see that -- i'm sure in some ways, for people who love mark meadows,

or who loved him at one time, that's a tragic photo, for other people who don't like mark meadows, it's not, i am sure. what goes to your mind when you look at that picture? >> i see someone that didn't have to be in that position. you know, i see that picture and i feel sorry for him in some ways. because he had a lot of opportunities to do the right thing and to come forward. he's a man that has a family, and to come forward. he's a man that has a family, and that's also a another in fortune impact of all this, when you are in donald trump's circle and you have that loyalty to him, it impacts more ways than one can imagine. and you know, i -- i hope that mark is doing the right thing, iffy hasn't already been doing the right thing, as what i define it the right thing.

>> hope that he is cooperating? >> i hope that he is cooperating, because he knows a lot more than i know, about what happened during the november 2020, through january 2021 period. >> yeah, it doesn't seem like he is cooperate with the georgia case, and we don't know if he is cooperating with federal investigators, that seems to be this unanswered question. looking at the republican party going forward, and whether or not the republican party nominates donald trump, he is clearly far and ahead in the lead in polls right now. but i want to play this moment from the first republican primary debate. >> if former president donald trump is convicted in a court of law, would you still support him as your party choice? please raise your hand if you would. [applause] >> that's the first debate. the second one is tomorrow. and basically, the only candidates that said they would not support donald trump, if he were a felon, a convicted felon,

were asa hutchinson and chris christie. asa hutchinson did not make the debate stage for tomorrow night, so chris christie will be the only republican candidate on the debate stage tomorrow night, who said he would not vote for donald trump if he were a convicted felon. and, he is also really, the only one who has been outspoken, in his criticism of donald trump, when it comes to january 6th. what does it say to you about donald trump's hold on the republican party? >> well i want to point out something that is really critical that you just said, jake, and that is that if donald trump is tried and convicted, that wasn't asking if he -- brett bayer did not ask if he is still going through the trial. >> right, exactly. if he is a convicted felon. >> and the counts that donald trump is currently facing, he is facing counts of obstructing the constitution. to me, that is disqualifying. donald trump should be disqualified for being the president of the united states. to me, that is not a question. when i watch that, and i

watched that debate, and i was hopeful about some of the candidates on that stage. i thought a lot of them had good, forward thinking answers, and in the beginning of the debate, i sort of saw the light at the end of the tunnel. >> who, besides your fellow new jersey resident chris christie? >> i had a lot of hope with nikki haley. even mike pence, i was really disappointed when i saw mike pence raise his hand. and you know, jake, i think that donald trump has such a grip on these people, and sometimes i can't quite put my finger on why. why is it so easy for these people to go along with this? why is it so easy for these people to say that what he is doing is okay? because to me in that moment, they are saying, they are conceding that they are okay with waging a war on our constitution. that is not a republican value, that is not an american value. those are the types of candidates that we are looking

at for 2024. >> i will ask about kevin mccarthy. you at one point were very close to him. in the book, you call him kevin, you are on a first name basis with him. he wasn't the speaker at the time, but he was the house majority leader, i'm sorry, minority leader for the republicans. but at the end of the book, you write about being disillusioned with mccarthy. you said, i started two sense a significant shift in kevin. what is this shift, what happened to mccarthy, in your view? >> i think that kevin had an opportunity after january 6th, as did mitch mcconnell, as did all of the elected officials in congress that are republicans, to denounce what happened on january 6th, and work against trump still having a stronghold on the republican party. kevin was fairly outspoken, in the days after january 6th, about how it was wrong. but then, after the former president left office, mccarthy went down to mar-a-lago. and to me, that was sort of the beginning of that transformation, that nothing was going to change.

you know, i still have a lot of respect for kevin. i hope for the best for him, as the speaker, especially as we see the chaos that is happening on capitol hill right now. but, i am not confident that he is a good leader for the republican party, because he is a talking head for donald trump. kevin hasn't taken a strong stand against him, i am confident that kevin knows all of this is wrong. >> you know, a few days after the election, and look, you were in the white house, and i'm sure you didn't see everything. but just a few days after the election. >> thankfully. >> he went on, kevin mccarthy went on fox, and said donald trump won in a landslide. i mean. >> but the day of the, the day of january 6th, he also. >> he voted to, yeah. >> pennsylvania, and arizona. he was part of the big lie, along with everybody else. >> no, you are not wrong on that, jake. but i think even if we look at the senate, with senator mcconnell, they brought an impeachment trial against the former president. if senator mcconnell had wanted

to get the ten votes, we would not be facing this issue right now. he could have likely gotten ten votes in the senate, to make sure that trump could never be president again. and this is just the plague that has, unfortunately, filtered throughout the republican party. and i am not confident of the republican party is going to continue to exist, at least the republican party that i have known, and the republican party that i have originally came to be a part of. >> so, let's talk about january 6th. because one of the things you really brought to everyone's attention, in your testimony, was how much donald trump wanted to go to the capitol, on january 6th, and demanded to go to the capitol on january 6th. and i think one of the big questions that i have this, why? what did he want to do at the capitol? >> well, i can't speculate. i heard several things -- >> you can't speculate, but you have more information. >> because i, i don't think that would be responsible. because definitively, i don't

know what he wanted. >> what are some ideas? >> what i would know is that there is a reason he wanted to go to the capitol, there is a reason he wanted to be with his supporters. and trmpu knows the impact that his words, has and he knows that the impact that his presence has on his supporters. he knows that he himself wild people up. so knowing donald trump, knowing what i knew inside the white house, that was not a mistake, he did not want to just go to the capitol to go there and make a little speech, and then go back to the white house. there was another reason he wanted to go there. and again, i would like to restate that donald trump knows the impact of his words. so on january 6th, when he wanted to go to the capitol, every thing, that was intentional. the mark milley tweet, that you earlier mention from this past weekend. he knows the impact those words will have, he knows that people will come out and be violent against these people. and that is what he wants. >> yeah, i mean there will be, if there are not already, death threats against milley, because.

>> absolutely. >> during the capitol attack, you heard meadows say that then president trump didn't want to do anything to stop it. we heard the chants, we heard hang mike, pence hang mike pence. and, what did meadows say, about hang mike pence, what did you overhear? >> this is when the former white house counsel came into our office, and -- pat had said that -- they needed to go down to the oval dining room, where the president was. the rioters had gotten into the capitol, and mark had relayed to pat -- something to the effect of, you heard him pat, he doesn't want to do anything. >> he doesn't want to do anything? >> he doesn't want to do anything. >> and still ahead, more of jake's interview with cassidy hutchinson, including how she turned up to work the day after january 6th. you we will be back, in a moment.

despite what cassidy hutchinson witnessed on january 6th, she did show up to work the very next day. hutchinson tells jake tapper why she found it so difficult to ultimately break away from trump world. >> so, on the morning of january 7th, -- you still went to work. >> i did. >> and this is one of the things that i think some of your critics on the left, or never trumpers who are republicans say. you see your friend melissa griffin go on tv, she denounced denouncing january six. sarah matthews, secretary --

secretary -- others resigned that they. secretary mnuchin, you write in your book, was considering a vote in the 25th amendment. you continued to work there, tell me why you went back? because obviously, you feel very passionately about this, and you have been very brave in your testimony. but you still, on january 7th, went back to work. >> i did. and, i wish i had a glossy and short, cookie cutter answer for you, jake. but, it is something that i still struggle with to this day. but i will say, and i would like to also reference what alyssa did on that day, alyssa farah griffin. i remember sitting in the office, and i was very outspoken on january 6th, and every day after that, that i strongly disagreed. >> internally, yes. >> correct, internally. but when i saw alyssa on tv that day, it was this moment for me where i sort of felt, not split. because on one hand, i was very upset with her. you know, she was one of my closest friends, and i was upset over for a variety of reasons. but the one that i think is the most potent for this conversation is, i thought that she, what she did that day was

disloyal. and saying that now, with the hindsight and the experience that i've had, sounds ludicrous. >> well, but it's an honest answer. >> but it is, and i think that's the important part of this transformation period for me. because on the other hand, when i saw, there was a little bit of envy. you know, i was proud of her for doing what she felt that she had to be doing, and for using her voice. and i give alyssa a lot of credit. i came to her side, and she was the one that -- welcomed me, she was the first person actually welcome me, and how they get to this point. i had committed to moving to florida with the former president, and again it's that push pull inside of me, where on one hand i felt that january 6th happened because we, the staff, didn't do enough to stop it. that we, the staff, should have not let people around him, that

would have stroked this desire for him to overturn the election on january 6th. >> you say in the book that you felt complacent. >> correct, yes. but then there is this other side of me, where i was afraid to look disloyal, i was afraid to split from the world. because once you are in that environment, and have the access, and have the knowledge that you do, you sort of feel like there is a target on your back. so i, i did not move to florida with him, but i stayed on payroll with him for several months after the end of the administration. and i still had that, the moral dilemma inside of me, throughout that whole period. >> so it's a push pull of, one pull is doing the right thing. >> correct. >> and then the other pull's loyalty, and fear. >> correct. >> is that right? >> that's fairly accurate. i also would like to say though, before i was subpoenaed by the january 6th committee, i did work too slowly start to

separate. i wanted to start a new chapter in my career, because i disagreed with not only what happened on january 6th, but i saw the trajectory of republican politics. and i didn't want to be a direct part of that, for the most part. again, it was difficult, and i'm not trying to make excuses. i don't have a hero's complex, i know a lot of what i did was wrong. but, i got to where i am today, but it was an important year for me, because i was able to look back and reflect on things that, one that i was complicit in, but also understand the dangers of what we were doing at the white house. >> one of the other things that you overheard trump say is, when the supreme court refuses to hear that case from texas, that wild case from texas, with all of these lies and things from ken paxton, the attorney general of texas. and, trump is livid, and he starts yelling at meadows, we should have made more calls, we

should have done this, we should have done that. i don't know exactly what could have been done, it is the supreme court. but then trump says, i don't want people to know we lost. it's embarrassing. i mean, that's potentially, of significance legally, if he knows that he lost. >> correct. but, i elaborate on this in my testimony to, where i can't climb inside of the former president's mind, and know exactly what he was thinking. but it's not just me that has come forward with information like that. general milley has also said that he was in the former president's presence when he admitted that he lost. alyssa farah griffin as well. i can't speculate about his actual mindset, and his motivations behind this. but in that moment, it was clear to me that there was some concession. and i would also like to point out, jake, that the president directed mark to begin to declassify the crossfire

hurricane documents before january 6th happened. because he was worried that those documents would never get declassified, under a biden administration. so, there was a mentality in that era of justice, chaos, to be frank. and, it is happening, at the white house. it wasn't lost on people that joe biden had won the election, and it was a free and fair election. but yet, january 6th still happened. >> one of the things i wonder, because you talk about this, this journey. i don't want to belittle it, but it does sound like leaving a cult, i mean it really does. because it was difficult for you to leave, you are talking about loyalty, and you are talking about fear of what happens to you, if you leave. and, you are also talking about doing the right thing. and again, i am not trying to belittle it at all, but it does sound like when people leave a cult, it does sound like that. but then, there also is this inflection point, where you are

basically told you are not coming down to florida. to join, to join the president's staff. >> the president thought i was insufficiently loyal. >> yet, because they thought maybe you were leaking stuff. and by the way, maybe you would've helped them avoid the classified documents scandal. >> and one of the things i wonder is, do you ever think that if they had let you go down to mar-a-lago, what would have happened? like, would you have testified? you would have boot subpoenaed, probably, but would history have turned out differently? with the push pull still have gone on, would you have still down the right thing if you were down in mar-a-lago? >> i guess asked for those answers, i don't know, because it is not what played out. >> no no, you're not belittling it. >> it's just. >> i haven't ever been.

i have not been in a cult. we can sit here and debate whether the maga movement is a cult. >> no no, i don't think it is, i don't think it is, but the way you describe it sounds like that. >> but, what i will say on that is, i would hope that i would have come forward to do the right thing, still. but when you are in that environment, it becomes a lot more difficult. and, i did get brought back into that environment, and for a short period of time, when i first began doing my deposition with the committee. but i didn't feel empowered to comply completely. and also jake, if i am being completely candid and frank, you know, i still felt that loyalty to him at the end of the administration. and, i worry that if i had gone down to florida, that that would have only grown, and i would not have come forward. and whether or not what i testify to changes the trajectory of any investigation, i fulfilled what i was obligated to do under the oath

that i swore to protect, and defend the constitution, and the country. and, i fulfill the obligations of my subpoena. so to me, this is not about what i did, and the impact that it has for me. it is more about that i was able to maintain my character, in my integrity, after i retained new legal counsel who empowered me, and showed me the importance of telling the whole truth. so anybody that finds themselves in a situation that, i would just encourage them to listen to your conscious, and this moment is so much bigger than us. >> so, i guess the question, the big question is this. what you did was the right thing, no question. but it was also, i think it's fair to say, more difficult, right? and there probably are other trump people, who want to do the right thing, but they have their own trump world lawyers, like you had, telling them to say i don't recall, i don't recall, i don't recall, even though they could recall. and they are stuck.

why would they do the right thing? do you regret doing the right thing ever? >> no, no. >> why not? >> i mean i'm glad you did the right thing, don't get me wrong. >> you don't have to, look i'm not asking for anything to-- >> look i, think it's important to acknowledge that you did the right, thing but that is not the easy thing. >> that's correct, and i also want to be clear, as i was writing the book with, my fantastic collaborator who work for john mccain and mark and i had -- this conversation a lot to about what it actually meant to break from trump world about this mentality they still had to break. i i did not write this book with the intention that i did the right thing. i wrote this book with the intention of the intention to show my journey, and i don't love the word journey, it

sounds a little bit like the bachelor. but the journey that i had, of being a trump world insider. i am not a democrat, i still consider myself a republican. but i don't consider myself part of the republican party largely identifies with, today. which is the trump republican party, in my opinion. i but in this period for me, i have never once dealt him a position to come forward and be truthful, to be honest. and i had a conversation with a member of congress, who is a republican member of congress that did not serve on the january 6th committee. >> this is the person with the pseudonym in your book? >> yes, sam. >> sam, right. >> i have been very open with, sam throughout this period, about how i was struggling. and, we were on the phone one night, and sam told me, he was like, go look in the mirror. i will stay on the phone. >> this is before you made your

big decision? >> correct, this is before i started backtracking to do it yes. >> and i'm looking in the mirror, and i'm on the phone with sam. and he said to me, do you like what you are looking at? you are the only person has to look at yourself, for the rest of your life. nobody else has to. do you like what you are looking at? i don't mean your appearance, cassidy? i mean do you like the person you are? >> and i hadn't like who i was, for a while. and, i knew in that moment that i had to correct course for myself, and come back to the person that i wanted to be. and the person that i thought i saw myself, becoming when i entered public service. >> the book is enough, the offer is cassidy hutchinson, thanks so much for talking to us, we really appreciate it. >> really fasting interview there with cassidy hutchinson. let's discuss with sara fisher. also with us is cnn senior

political analyst john avalon, and stewart c, senior advisor at the lincoln project who is a former republican strategist and author of the book, conspiracy to end america. john, that last chunk of the exchange dug deep into the psyche of someone who is coming out of someone. a deep fog perhaps. jake asked if there is something, she did think it was a cult, what did you think? >> i think that, that's a really important interview for people who are still under sway of trump to watch and take in, the process she is being told you understandably for someone who has worked in the white house and was confronting lies that had led to an take on the capitol, and witnessed the lies up close and their corrosive impact on her and the country.

she ultimately did move outside that hothouse that she lived in. but so many people are still in it. the fact that she is one of many trump officials that now say donald trump is the gravest threat to democracy in our lifetime, possibly in american history, that's striking. that calls coming from within the house. and people who are still with donald trump and can't bring themselves to separate should look at people like cassidy hutchinson and realize that that is the sign of coming attractions. >> she does have this clear message in all of her media appearances. she says the guard rails will not be there the second time around. do you think that's going to have an impact where we are in our political moment? >> yeah, absolutely. if you think about it, what she describes was so chaotic, so off the rails, if the guard rails that were there are not going to be around the second time around, and it was that chaotic, that's what we would expect in the next presidency. but i also think in terms of the wider impact.

what she represents is somebody who is speaking out in terms of the fear of what the maga community will do if you go out against donald trump. the fact that she had to weigh doing what she knew was right versus not because she was scared about how she was going to be perceived, how she was going to be bullied online, how other trump officials would label her, how they would talk about her in the media, that fear campaign speaks to a huge problem if other people in the trump world ever want to come forward, and if we as the public want to learn more. because we need people who were inside to come forward in order to get the full picture. >> stewart, this really seems to me in your wheel house here. what she is describing is what it feels like to be cast out. and what happens to people like cassidy hutchinson when all of the lights come down on this book tour. she really has only herself. as she said in that last part of the clip, the person sees when she looks back in the mirror.

what impresses me the most about this interview is her expressing responsibility. it's something i felt. i helped elect a lot of these people who then went, i never would have believed it, went and supported trump. and you know, one of the things that drew me to the republican party was the sense of personal responsibility, which turned out to be just a marketing slogan for the party. but i believed in it. when i wrote a book, i said blame me. because i helped elect these people. and i think that's something that all of us who help build this republican party have to ask. this isn't about donald trump. donald trump is just this weird guy from queens that ran for president. it's the republican party that accepted him and made him president. and all of these people that now come out and say well, what happened on january 6th is so terrible, i mean, trump was a terrible person before that.

and how many of these people would still be working for him if he was reelected? a lot of them. i don't think cassidy hutchinson would, but a lot of these political figures. and when you see where the party is, where the majority overwhelmingly of the party is where trump, it's not about donald trump. it's about some deep failure and corruption and collapse of a party, unlike anything we've seen in american history. >> just to add on to what stewart says, and he has been eloquent about this for a long time. it's about not just party over country, but power over principle. and what you witnessed i think in that interview was a process of deradicalization that cassidy went under, where this group identity is enforced by trying to keep people in the group. and when they step outside, you punish them. you try to turn them into examples to reinforce group cohesion. the fact that trump is where he

is in the republican party today, they're on the verge of renominating him, that's what is odangerous. when you see former trump acolytes, the people who know him best warning about the damage he could do our country. that's what so startling. >> the flag on that, it's not just the people in trump's inner circle that are going to make you feel like that. it's a broader community of people who have latched on to this movement. trolls online. people who don't know donald trump, who has never worked for him. that's to me is the scarier part about removing yourself. there is such a huge swarm of people that are going to come after you. it's not just the people you can name that you worked with at one point. >> it's not only about trump anymore or the trump movement. >> no. >> that lives beyond him. sara, john and stewart, thank you all for joining us. and that's it for me here on cnn prime time. "cnn tonight" with laura coates picks it up next, with a big

legal blow after a new york judge found him liable for fraud. stay with us.

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well, good evening, everyone. i'm laura coates. tonight a really bad day in court for donald trump. yes, he is the clear front-runner in the race for the white house. he is neck and neck with joe biden, according to polling, but now a new york judge says the candidate and his adult sons are also now liable for fraud, saying if they gave false financial statements for years, committing fraud over and over again by inflating the value of their assets. now news flash, this is the man who could be running the country if the election of course goes his way. and on top of, as you know, four criminal indictments as well. and just when you thought the circus on the hill could not get an