this is cnn's special live coverage of an historic vote on capitol hill. i'm jake tapper. this has not happened in more than 100 years. but facing a revolt from a small but powerful group of republican

hard-liners, mccarthy says he will bring up a motion to vacate in the first series of votes today that is just minutes away. >> i truly believe, though, the institution of the house, at the end of the day if you throw a speaker out that has 99% of their conference, that kept government open and paid the troops, i think we're in a really bad place for how we're going to run congress. >> speaker mccarthy says he thinks he will survive the vote and that he will not make a deal with democrats to keep his job but that may not even be an option anyway. here's the speaker earlier today. democrats have been huddling today. democrats are signaling they will not be coming to speaker mccarthy's rescue. let's get right to the action on capitol hill. cnn's manu raju and lauren fox join me now. manu, i'll start with you. what are republican lawmakers telling you about this vote?

>> i don't have tolerance for some pseudo psychopolitical fetish. >> when you see disunity -- >> i think it's sending a terrible signal to the electorate in advance of the '24 election that this republican majority cannot govern itself and we need to change that. >> do you worry it could cost you the majority? could it cost you the majority? >> it could. sure could. >> reporter: now, i asked speaker mccarthy about whether he's open to any sort of dealmaking with democrats in order to get some democratic support to stave off this rebellion among the small number of members in his conference who have the votes at the moment to push him out. he indicated he is not open to any sort of power-sharing agreement, suggesting that this would be akin to surrender on conservative ideals. where this is heading, democrats are ready to sink him. republicans are furious about matt gaetz, but at the moment

matt gaetz is holding the power with a handful of members ready to send this house into something we have never seen before, the speaker being ejected. and we'll see what kevin mccarthy will do at that moment. will he put himself up for speaker again? if he does that we could be in for a long haul of many rounds and ballots until they elect a new speaker. jake. >> and lauren, if you gave sodium pentothal to house democrats, they would probably admit they find matt gaetz more distasteful than they find kevin mccarthy. but they sure don't seem ready to save kevin mccarthy either. >> reporter: yeah, absolutely. that was certainly the decision coming out of the democratic caucus meeting. democrat after democrat after democrat that we spoke with made clear that there just isn't trust for house speaker kevin mccarthy, that even if he was willing to make a deal with them, which he has made clear he is not, the democrats just don't trust that he would stick to any agreement that they made. in fact, behind closed doors i'm

told that hakeem jeffries spoke briefly, the democratic leader, at the top of that caucus meeting but then he really said he wanted to listen to his members, and dozens of them spoke at the mikes, and i'm told it was a broad coalition of the conference from progressive to swing state democrats who one after another said they just don't believe that kevin mccarthy is the right person for this job, that they don't think that they can trust him, that they don't think they can work with him and a lot of them pointed to a budget agreement that was made with the president back in may that then kevin mccarthy backtracked on, marking up a series of spending bills at far lower levels than what was agreed to. that was a determining factor. also a determining factor, the fact that on saturday despite the fact that for weeks democrats had been wanting to negotiate on a way to keep the government open mccarthy at the last minute put on the floor a 45-day short-term spending bill and didn't give democrats much time to read it. in fact, democrats had to use delay tactics in order to just

find time to go through the bill to make sure there weren't any poison pills. that didn't build trust. democrats who were in that room told me. and that is part of the reason why today you can expect they are going to vote with some of those hard-line republicans potentially to end the speakership of kevin mccarthy this afternoon. >> all right. lauren and manu, thanks so much. with us now to discuss, republican congressman mark alford of missouri. congressman, thanks so much for joining us. you've called this vote to vacate, essentially a vote to remove mccarthy as speaker, you've called it a distraction. do you expect kevin mccarthy will survive this historic challenge to his leadership? i mean, if he doesn't have any democratic votes and if he loses, you know, a handful of republicans, i don't see how he survives. >> well, jake, you're absolutely right. it's going to come down to probably four or five individuals who never liked kevin mccarthy from the beginning, who fought him at our conference when i was a

member-elect and here for o orientation we were inside this conference. and from the very beginning they were on the attack. they wanted to present, you know, nancy pelosi did not have this in the house rules that there could be a motion to vacate. she did away with that. they came in, they wanted to have a motion to vacate. i proposed a majority of the majority. i advocated for that. it got whittled down. and for kevin mccarthy to get this leadership speaker role he basically gave in to these people, and it only takes one vote now, like matt gaetz did, to get before the u.s. house of representatives and call for a vacate of the chair. and that's exactly what happened. >> so one of the things that's interesting is we hear from these house democrats and they're not saying that they're not going to support kevin mccarthy because they disagree with him. obviously they disagree with him. what they're saying is they can't trust him. and i've been in this town for decades now, and i know that democrats have not liked the

politics of speaker ryan, they didn't like the politics of speaker boehner, but i think that they felt that they could trust them. they could deal with them. that their word was their bond in terms of how they governed. but they don't feel the same way about kevin mccarthy. they don't trust him. is that your sense as well? >> i don't know where that's coming from. i haven't known kevin mccarthy long, but as far as i know i have no reason not to trust kevin mccarthy. he has done nothing but show deference to the people who really are controlling our conference right now with their five votes. and they know that. even before he took the oath of office as speaker of the house he was listening to people, not just what was coming out of their mouths but trying to get down to their heart. we would be in conference saying wait a minute, what are you really trying to say? and every conference that we have he has listened to people.

we might not always get our way, but everyone has had their say. we have matriculated this ball down the field like a football game. and why with all the wins that we've had on border security, on parents' rights, on energy dominance, to get america back on track, why in the world would you change quarterbacks in the middle of the game? i think this is a -- >> well, that's -- >> -- fool's errand -- go ahead. >> no, please, finish. >> i think it's a fool's errand. i think it's sophomoric. and i don't think it's going to work. who are you going to get who can get 218 votes and hold this conference together like kevin mccarthy has? name them. i don't know who can do it. >> yeah, i was just going to say that i think the point that you're making about how much speaker mccarthy has deferred to these five or six members is correct. i think he has been very deferential to them and to the marjorie taylor greens of the conference.

i think that is what the house democrats would point out. he's supposed to be speaker of the house, not just speaker of the republican conference. that's what democrats would say. but i guess the big question i have is how worried are you that this speakership fight is going to drag out, it's going to affect house republicans' ability to govern, to pass spending bills -- >> jake. >> go ahead. >> this is the issue. i came here to get something done. >> right. >> our freshman brothers came here because we were this close to losing our nation. and we gave up everything we had in life to come here and serve the people of our district. and now we're dealing with these shenanigans. they're on the house floor right now debating the rules for energy and water. we have passed four appropriations bills, eight to go. we have 45 days to get this done for the american people. and this is gamemanship that is going to slow us down and prevent us from doing the work that our voters sent us here to do. it's unacceptable. >> do you worry that this fight will further demonstrate to

voters that house republicans have trouble governing? because frankly, every time there is -- house republicans take over there's a government shutdown. >> it worries me. jake, you know, we thought we were going to have this red wave, right? the red wave did not materialize. we ended up with a very slim majority. i don't know how kevin has done this. herding cats and juggling plates in the air trying to get everyone on the same page and make them happy. but americans are seeing that we need a marriage counselor basically in our conference and until we get this family settled and we get communication and trust back in the relationships i'm afraid we might lose our majority. we were sent here to do our job, and without that majority we cannot get it done. and with the slim majority that we've had so far kevin mccarthy has been a miracle worker and able to push the ball forward. and i sure hope by the end of the day he is still our speaker. >> surely there must be a marriage counselor among the 435

members of the house, somewhere in there there must be someone. >> i don't think there's -- we have pharmacists and doctors and -- >> you used to have a large animal veterinarian. there's got to be someone who's a marriage counselor. congressman mark alford -- >> i don't know. we need to get one up here quickly. >> as soon apossible. maybe next november. thanks so much, we appreciate it. we're waiting for the pivotal vote on the house floor. kevin mccarthy the speaker of the house at least as of this hour attempting to kill the resolution that aims to remove his as speaker. stay with cnn's live special coverage. stay with us.

a republican mutiny is brewing in the house of representatives. a bid to take the speaker's gavel out of kevin mccarthy's hands, a move launched by far right congressman matt gaetz who announced it at -- >> the first problem is these

five recalcitrant republicans. gaetz of florida, crane and biggs of arizona, good of virginia and burchett of tennessee. those are the big five. and he only has a margin of four. but also democrats. he has a big problem with democrats because they do not trust him, they do not like him, and one of the problems as you will report for us in one second is this interview he gave while matt gaetz was on "state of the union" talking about how he was going to make this motion to vacate. speaker mccarthy was on cbs blaming, pretty insanely and counterfactually the almost government shutdown on democrats. let's roll some of that tape. >> i wasn't sure it was going to pass. you want to know why? because the democrats tried to do everything they can not to let it pass. >> democrats were the ones who voted for this. in larger numbers than republicans. to keep the continuing resolution alive. >> did you watch the floor

yesterday? >> yes. 90 republicans voted against it. >> so let's walk through what actually happened. first of all, the democrats stood up and did dilatory actions, asked to adjourn. so was that supporting to adjourn? then they used the magic minute. they went as far as pulling the fire alarm not to try to get the bill to come up. >> so here's the thing. democrats saved his bacon on saturday. democrats kept the government open on saturday. >> yes. so my understanding is that that clip, perhaps others, was played at the beginning of the closed-door democratic caucus meeting this morning, making the point that you just made, saying really? is this the guy that we want to help bail out? this guy who -- and this is just one example of why democrats are absolutely furious with kevin mccarthy. it's not just run-of-the-mill partisanship. it's the fact that he went on

television after they saved his bacon and helped because republicans weren't going to keep the government running -- open. democrats did. and the fact that he went on and said that was -- and that i'm told set the tone for the conversation in this closed-door meeting this morning. and you saw democrats starting with the leader hakeem jeffries come out saying the feeling is they're on their own. if republicans want to save kevin mccarthy, he's going to have to find the votes inside the republican conference. i should note that is one example. it's the most recent example. it is certainly not the whole story. >> no, there's a long list. >> the whole story is very long, including richie torres was just here on "inside politics" saying the fact -- >> congressman from new york. democratic congressman. >> congressman from new york. thank you. saying by the way, they have a kangaroo court trying to -- starting to impeach joe biden over things that they don't have evidence for. that's just another example.

>> and we're hearing from our team on the hill that mccarthy allies are making last-minute pleas to house democrats. we should note that while house democrats were voting in greater numbers and greater proportion to keep the government open it was not only bigger numbers of house republicans voting to not keep the government open, it was republican leaders like the house judiciary committee chairman jim jordan that were voting against mccarthy's bill. >> yeah, absolutely. the problem that mccarthy has faced is what we've called -- and dana's dealt with this a lot. getting to 218. if you have the majority and you can get to 218 votes on your own, republican or democrat, you don't need the minority. obviously we're in a very different situation right now because there's a very real risk that he won't be able to get 218 republicans standing up for him. it's why we're seeing multiple house republican conference meetings within the same week. and when you do that, you're guaranteed to be in a bad position. during the 2013 shutdown we opened a meeting with john

boehner reading the serenity prayer and steve sutherland from florida singing "amazing grace" to his republican colleagues. not a good day. this is light years worse than that. >> but also, i mean, if you are relying on the minority to keep the government open and to do your bidding, it is probably wise to not then go on a sunday show and crap all over them. especially if you need their votes in the coming days because your leadership's going to be challenged. >> one would think that that would be the approach. but yet again, kevin mccarthy continues not to act in good faith. so democrats find themselves -- they want the house to function. they want the government to stay open. that's why they voted in favor of the bill last week. but at some point you have to say enough is enough and if you can't get your own caucus together, which a speaker is supposed to be able to do to get to 218, and then you go and bash me, you know, what kind of friend is that? >> can i just add one piece of context, which i think is important here. it seems as if a big reason why kevin mccarthy went on "face the

nation" is because matt gaetz was sitting with you. >> right. >> earlier. and so the reason he was out there is he was trying to -- >> project strength? >> project strength. but also he was very -- understandably very nervous about where his own conference was. >> exactly. >> which led him to trash the democrats. which led him to not have the democrats to bail him out. >> let him trash the democrats to try to fortify the support within his conference. but notice what happened. obviously, it didn't go very well. and notice what happened immediately thereafter. he started making the institutional argument. right? instead of going on the attack on democrats that we've heard from kevin mccarthy the last couple of days has been this argument in favor of the institution and hoping that that would have some appeal. i just want to say, kevin mccarthy could have gone on sunday and thrown roses at democrats and i'm not sure he'd be in a very different position. i just -- in democrats i've talked to kevin mccarthy, in the aftermath of january 6th, when he first came out and seemed like he wanted to hold donald

trump accountable for his actions, for his repeated lies about the 2020 election that led up to the insurrection, and then flipped on that within days to go down on bended knee to mar-a-lago and keep donald trump in the fold and keep his conference loyal to donald trump, that is something many democrats i've spoken to do not -- are not going to forget. a. b, as richie torres told you, this notion that just weeks ago he launched this impeachment inquiry that the republicans' own witnesses suggest that there's not enough evidence for to be at the impeachment process yet, is another reason why i've heard from democrats that they have no interest in engaging in this conversation about kevin mccarthy. so yes, i don't think sunday helped matters, but i'm not sure we'd be in a different position. >> dana, i know you've covered kevin mccarthy for a lot of years before he was speaker. and i've talked to him in many different settings in public, off the record and other things. and i think the thing that really defines him as a person is that he is very, very good at telling the person sitting across the table from him at that moment what they want to hear. right? >> what do i need to do to get

you in the seat of this car to leave this lot today? >> exactly. i will tell you whatever that is. i will sell it to you. whether you're a reporter and he's trying to come across as in the trump years kind of the reasonable guy who really gets how crazy it all is. but you know, he understands. he's saying something else in public, sure, but that's because he's having a conversation in public with a different audience. and i think that's what you're seeing happen here in real time. until sunday his audience was the hard-liners. he was trying to tell them what they wanted to hear. and i think you saw a version of this on january 6th as well. he took in that information. i was at the capitol complex on january 6th. i had conversations with kevin mccarthy in the immediate aftermath where he repeated some of the initial things he had said on the floor and then just days later he turns around and realizes his audience is a different one and he has to sing a different tune and he starts doing that. and honestly, i think this worked really well for him before he was the guy with the gavel. this was something that allowed him to get where he is, but when you are the leader at the end of the day you have to make some harder decisions than he's been

forced to so far. >> let's go to lauren fox right now, who has some reporting on house democrats who are going to have at least two votes in front of them. one will be on a motion to table whether or not the resolution to remove mcccarthy, whether they cable that motion or not. and then assuming that is not tabled whether they vote to vacate kevin mccarthy. what do you have for us? >> reporter: yeah, jake. i mean, this was long expected right after democrats came out of their caucus meeting, it was very clear that the trust for kevin mccarthy was not there. but democratic leaders making it official in this letter to their colleagues saying, quote, it is now the responsibility of the gop members to end the house republican civil war. given their unwillingness to break from maga extremism in an authentic and comprehensive manner, house democratic leadership will vote yes on the pending republican motion to vacate the chair. that means they are not helping

kevin mccarthy. and time after time, member after member we spoke with earlier today made clear that that was the consensus in the democratic caucus meeting from pramila jayapal who came out and spoke with us to others who are members of the problem solvers caucus, which is a more moderate caucus of the democratic caucus. it was very clear that they have a problem with kevin mccarthy. and it isn't a problem that just happened today. it is not just democrats saying we don't like kevin mccarthy and we think he's vulnerable in this moment. it is because they feel like this is a pattern of behavior from the speaker of the house that despite the fact that they've come to the negotiating table with him on issues like the debt ceiling earlier this summer and spending levels earlier this year, that he did not stick to those deals. and that's part of the reason they're not bailing him out now. jake? >> all right, lauren, thank you so much. everyone, stand by. president biden's top advisers are closely monitoring the fast-moving events unfolding on

capitol hill. we're live at the white house next. we're going to squeeze in a quick break. we'll be right back.

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a high-stakes drama playing out right this minute on capitol hill. at any moment now we will watch an historic vote on a motion aimed at removing the speaker of the house, kevin mccarthy of california. he's hoping to defeat the effort to oust him, an effort

spearheaded by republican hard-liner matt gaetz of florida, who announced his intention to do so on cnn's "state of the union" on sunday. but if mccarthy's unsuccessful in this key vote, he could be on his way to becoming the very first speaker of the house of representatives to have his gavel taken away in more than a cen century. as we await the vote on the house floor, let's check in on the view from the white house down the street. cnn's m.j. lee is there. m.j., what do we know about how president biden is reacting to these fast-moving events on capitol hill? >> reporter: well, jake, it is no surprise that white house officials and advisers to president biden, they are very closely monitoring everything that is unfolding on capitol hill right now, and it is safe to say there is recognition here at the white house that the white house soon could be dealing with a new speaker of the house and a new leader of an unruly house republican conference. now, i don't have to tell you that president biden and speaker mccarthy, they have a

complicated working relationship. at times this relationship has been outright contentious. but there is, again, a recognition that a new speaker will mean a whole new potentially political landscape for democrats and this white house to navigate. i think one urgent priority for this white house that is worth looking at is of course the question of ukraine funding. this is something that got left out of the government funding bill that passed over the weekend. but we heard president biden over the weekend seeming to suggest that he had received some new assurances from speaker mccarthy that he would eventually bring up the ukraine funding piece of this separately in the house. obviously in a scenario where he is no longer the house speaker all of those conversations, any potential assurances that the white house received, those all end up going out the window. i will also note, of course, publicly white house officials including the president himself, they have been very, very careful over the last couple of days to not publicly weigh in whenever they have been asked

about potential leadership changes, they have said look, all of this is for lawmakers on capitol hill to decide, this is not something that the white house is going to weigh in on. and there is just a general sense here at the white house, and we're seeing this play out among democrats on capitol hill that there certainly is no political upside for democrats to weigh in in a way that seems like they are helping out speaker kevin mccarthy. >> m.j. lee at the white house, thanks so much. let's go to manu raju on capitol hill right now. votes are going to start at any minute, manu. you're waiting for speaker mccarthy to walk by your camera. what are you going to ask him? >> reporter: yeah, i want to know what he will do if and when he loses these votes. that is really the big question at the moment. there seems to be no question that he does not have the votes to survive both the first procedural effort to stop matt gaetz's resolution to kick him out of the speakership. then it would actually go on to the underlying resolution to actually vacate the speakership.

something that's never been successfully executed on the house floor ever in american history. but at the moment kevin mccarthy does not have the votes, doesn't have democrats who will help him and has more than five republicans who will vote to kick him out. he can only afford to lose four republicans. so the big question right now is what happens next? because then it would go to a speaker's race. they'd have to elect a new speaker. someone needs to get a majority of votes in the house. if there's no elected speaker the house is in a state of paralysis, it can't move forward, it can't legislate, and they must elect a speaker. the question right now is will mccarthy put himself up as a candidate for speaker in that situation? he has indicated for some time he's ready to fight. he keeps saying that he's never going to quit. but does that mean that he won't quit and continue to be a candidate and put his name up over and over again as we saw back in january? those are major questions right now, jake, as the speaker is recognizing he knows full well where the votes lie, but what is his next step? that's what a lot of his allies

want to know, what he will do in the aftermath of this historic vote. jake. >> all right. manu raju, thank you so much. waiting on this key vote for speaker, kevin mccarthy. stay with cnn. we're going to squeeze in a quick break. we'll be right back. to duckduckgo on all your devie

duckduckgo comes with a built-n engine like google, but it's pi and doesn't spy on your searchs and duckduckgo lets you browse like chrome, but it blocks cooi and creepy ads that follow youa from google and other companie. and there's no catch. it's fre. we make money from ads, but they don't follow you aroud join the millions of people taking back their privacy by downloading duckduckgo on all your devices today. the u.s. house of representatives is bracing for a key vote soon over the fate of house speaker kevin mccarthy. as republican congressman matt gaetz of florida pushes for mccarthy to be fired. my panel's back with me. ashley allison, what do you make

of the democrats apparently deciding bye-bye? >> yeah. i mean, it's not like kevin mccarthy is really their friend. but also i think this is a really historic moment for hakeem jeffries. his position -- >> the democratic leader in the house. >> yeah. it's the first time an african american has had that role. and he's looking at what the outcome might be in 2024 where he could actually be the speaker of the house if democrats are able to get back the majority. and so this is a test of his leadership also. can he keep his caucus together? can he make sure that some democrats that might be more moderate don't actually support kevin mccarthy? and they came out it seems like as a democratic caucus to say we are going to vote as a unified bloc. the other thing is imagine some democrats in the caucus that might be primaried in 2024, what their -- their democratic opponent might do running an ad for someone who supported kevin mccarthy in a moment like this. it's not good politics for the dems to try to protect kevin mccarthy. leave it to the republicans to figure it out.

>> you know, it's also interesting because after that tumultuous house speaker vote in january there seemed to be this kind of nice moment between democratic leader jeffries and speaker mccarthy. there seemed to be this kind of oh, look, they're getting along and they're going to work together. i guess that's no longer. >> it was a very, very short honeymoon. shortest in history. you know, to go back to the marriage counselor analogy that was used earlier -- >> from congressman alford, yes. >> right now republicans are being mom and dad and they're having the fight in front of the kids. and it's every kid in america at this point. and part of why it's gotten so personal is i'd say two images that we saw yesterday. one was of matt gaetz on the capitol steps, surrounded by a bank of cameras. that's reason one. the other was an e-mail solicitation that matt gaetz sent out. join me in my fight to oust kevin mccarthy. click here to give me money. that's reason number two that it's happening. and if we're having this conversation a year ago on what's going on in the campaign, we're talking about bad candidates that republicans have

nominated. republicans have the small majority because mitch mcconnell was right. we nominated a lot of terrible candidates. a lot of them lost, which is why our majority's small. some of them won and they're clearly not being helpful actors for mccarthy or the republican majority. >> but -- go ahead. >> i was just going to say that, yes, hakeem jeffries and kevin mccarthy have almost nothing in common when it comes to policies. but they have an -- i would even argue still have a way better working relationship than most people would know. i guess now it's out that they text regularly. it's completely different than kevin mccarthy and nancy pelosi, who barely -- >> kevin mccarthy made quite clear b-- >> exactly. on speaking terms. >> what did he say? >> kevin mckarth i why was speaking to reporters and was talking about what you're saying and actually said he had no relationship with pelosi. that that relationship did not exist and would not be in any

position like he's in with jeffries today of even having a conversation. he couldn't have been more clear about how -- >> despite being from the same congressional delegation from california. >> that's true. or maybe because of that. so given that and given the fact that hakeem jeffries, it's not like he has this sort of love for kevin mccarthy. they have a working relationship. one of the questions, and this is why you're hearing kevin mccarthy use the word institution, one of the questions -- >> all of a sudden. >> -- that hakeem jeffries was grappling with is my understanding was what we're going to likely see this afternoon will do to the institution of the house of representatives. he decided, it seems, after the meeting this morning and what he said before the cameras that it's not up to democrats to worry about the institution. republicans were the ones elected in the majority. they have to deal with the institution. >> but can i just say, kasie, what i've heard from democrats about kevin mccarthy, what the institution of congress is, kevin mccarthy was out there

saying that donald trump won the election in a landslide. >> right. >> kevin mccarthy in addition to supporting the big lie about the 2020 election literally voted to disenfranchise the voters of pennsylvania and arizona after the insurrection, when bodies -- when dead bodies were still warm. he still voted that way. and i think a lot of people are like since when do you care about institutions? >> i think that's why there's such a credibility deficit. right? if mccarthy didn't have those issues that you ticked through -- i mean, perhaps he wouldn't be speaker today. but certainly there wouldn't -- i think the conversation around whether he was worth saving would be a more intensive one. i think dana's right. they do have a working relationship. they're from the same generation. they have kids around the same age. they get each other in a way that pelosi and mccarthy -- she barely deigned to speak to kevin mccarthy. let's be realistic about that. i think the question here big picture i have, jake, is at the end of the day we're talking a lot about what's best for everybody's political interests, what's best for kevin mccarthy. i kind of wonder what is best

for the country. and i think there are two potential ways this could go. one is that republicans realize mccarthy is untenable, there's somebody else that steps up, a tom emmer or steve scalise or somebody else and they manage to get 218 and we kind of continue on and perhaps democrats regret that they have a more conservative speaker, somebody who has more power honestly than kevin mccarthy. or we see a situation where there's a prolonged fight over getting a speaker at all and instead we're talking about potential secret lists -- this person's in the presidential line of succession. they're critical to our government functioning. we are sending quite a message to the rest of the world in potentially having functionally a headless house that's incapable of doing anything. and i think if we get to that point there's going to have to be some real soul searching among everyone involved in this whole catastrophe about what to do to keep the country in the place it should be. >> but i guess the other question is with such a slim majority the republicans -- like these five rogue congressmen, i don't have a better term for

them, but the gaetz five let's call them for now, like who are they willing to support? i mean, are they willing to support tom emmer? are they willing to support tom cole? i don't know. >> which is why that first path is not clear. >> i don't know that they're willing to support steve scalise. i have no idea who they're willing to support. we're going to squeeze in another quick vote. we're waiting on this quick vote on speaker kevin mccarthy. stick with cnn. to duckduckgo on all your devie duckduckgo comes with a built-n engine like google, but it's pi and doesn't spy on your searchs and duckduckgo lets you browse like chrome, but it blocks cooi and creepy ads that follow youa from google and other companie. and there's no catch. it's fre. we make money from ads, but they don't follow you aroud

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♪ all right. i've just been informed that the gaetz five who are challenging speaker kevin mccarthy political future are now the gaetz six. let's get to cnn's chief congressional correspondent manu raju on capitol hill, standing with republican congressman ralph norman. he's not a member of the gaetz six, i should point out, manu. >> reporter: that's right, congressman norman a member of the caucus. something is keeping speaker from this moment. why? >> i don't think the timing is right. we got 43 days to get the appropriations bill over. let us do that. he can't surrender to the senate and cannot agree of the threat of shutdown but senate owns it. kevin deserves that. kevin caused this. that's the reason we're to this point, he didn't push it in june

or july. so, i think that's right. >> if he loses this, then he's going to be out of the speakership to vacate. do you continue to support him, if he goes to the floor, ballot after ballot after ballot? your support is unshakeable right now? >> yeah, the timing is wrong. look at the things we face in the country. look at the things on the line. it's a pivotal time. yeah, i did in january with the 15-15 votes. >> you were skeptical. at first you didn't support him. now, you're totally on the mccarthy team. >> i didn't support him, but he made some great concessions that helped the country. there weren't any earmarks for ralph norman. it wasn't anything for me. it was the fact we wanted 72 hours notice. we wanted single subject bills and amendments. so it was great. and i think most people agreed to that. >> you were part of those talks in january, matt gaetz said he

violated promises. and it's time for disagreement. do you disagree? and what did he do? >> well, matt -- kevin is in the shape because of things he didn't do. but the thing is, he deserves the time -- on the debt ceiling, he surrendered. he said, let us go to the corporations and he would pretty much make sure that the numbers that we wouldn't be sold down the river and just spinning it into oblivion. he's got it do that, he deserves the 30, 35 days to do that. >> how do you think it makes the party look right now. this is something we haven't seen on the floor for a hundred years. it's never happened in american history that the speaker was ejected from speakership. as we're going to see this afternoon, you guys heading into a very different election vierltd to keep the majority. how does this look? >> it shows that the republican party is eager to debate. it shows a republican party that people feel strongly, they use the voting card.

they're no longer controlled by anybody but their conscience. it's a great voting process. that's why we didn't do it in january. hasn't been done for 70 years. on this vote, same way, it hasn't happened, that's fine. i have no problem with this. it's a democratic process. i'm not voting to change the rule or motion to vacate. in the private sector, if you don't do the job you get fired. >> we'll see if he gets fired here, congressman ralph norman, thank you. back to you. stay with us, following the key vote on kevin mccarthy's future. the special coverage continued. we'll squeeze in one more quick break. stay with us.