good evening everyone i'm lurk coats here with audrey philip, this is a special edition of cnn tonight. kevin mccarthy obvious house speaker. he has said he's not going to run again. now the house will be assessed for a week, and they won't even return until next tuesday night for a conference meeting, before they're a potential vote later that week on electing a new speaker. that means the house will be closed for business, meanwhile mccartney who lost that speakership gavel today, he said this tonight. >> these are the same people that never voted for me, but after we went through 15 rounds, i'm not sure those individuals

are looking to be productive. >> well this is certainly a moment in american history, in a string of number moments, i've never seen anything like this before. never before has the speaker lost the job in a vote on the house floor. it happened with with the pounding of a gavel. >> the office of speaker of the house, of the united states house of representatives is hereby declared vacant. but >> it started pretty much from the moment kevin mccarthy was elected speaker in early morning hours of january 7th, after 15 rounds of voting. i know i was up for it all. hard-liners in his own party had been threatening to dump him ever since. the gop civil war while it all came to bite the head today. >> we need a speaker who will fight for something, anything, besides just staying are

becoming speaker. >> they're willing to plunge this buddy into chaos, and this country into uncertain for reasons only they understand. i certainly. don't >> chaos is speaker mccarthy, chaos is somebody who we cannot trust with their word. >> now it is time to stand together stronger than ever so we can get back to the work our majority was elected to do. i'm proud to support the -- speaker >> kevin mccarthy has been rock-solid, we passed the bills we told the american people we would pass. >> well now the house will be characterized and have to elect a new speaker. you will remember how long that will took them last. time there's a lot of words we have been to describe what you been watching all day, chaos, disruption, insanity. but i think dysfunction may describe it best. the house of representatives, the people's house is not functioning the way it was designed to. can we all agree on that?

there is so much at stake when it does not. so many huge challenges our countries facing. so many things the house is not doing right now. there is aid for ukraine. fighting to keep its own democracy alive. there is defending the united states government, the last-minute deal that was hammered out saturday night, only funds the government through november 17th. there is the crisis at our borders. the epidemic a gun violence killing thousands and thousands of us every single year. the climate crisis fueling wide files, floods, monster storms. none of that is being addressed right now. just a sliver of the things. but to the hard-liners have a point of some kind? they are talking about the data which is reaching unimaginable levels. but the question is, how much of all of what we're seeing is politics? how much is principle? is it all really about the

attention economy and spotlight, are they standing up for what they believe? maybe the answer might lie somewhere in the middle. >> joining me now republican congressman, dan -- he voted against removing mccarthy as house speaker. thank you for joining us tonight. i spoke to you tomorrow into a radio. the book ends of a long conversation. who do, who should take the mantle of leadership? next >> great to be with you laura, appreciate it. announcer to question, i want to support as our next speaker, yes very unfortunately today it was a historic day. not for the right reasons. it was historic in that we created a situation where we really have a setback for our party. and for this body and for our nation. we were weren't constructive, in many ways we were

destructive. to answer your question, we need a new speaker about first of all can do the job. who has the capability and experience to do the job. secondly, that has the character moral fortitude that we can trust in, because we saw today that there were a lot of activities antics taking place, that i think were questionable. maybe we're selfish, and we're based upon a vendetta. thirdly, we need a individual that can win. win over all the portions of our republican party, which is pretty diverse as we are seeing. and can in the and lead. i know we've got that individual, i will see who turns out. you mentioned chaos, chaos today i'll grant that. but within a couple days we will be back, working on truly the priorities of the american pisa sent us here for. >> hopefully that is in the case. many people are watching this

wondering how deep that bench really is. when it came to kevin mccarthy being sworn in the first time, getting that gavel. i remember there is a lot of different rounds, as you well know. there were names being thrown around. they did not have the 218 votes. it didn't seem like anyone is raising their hand immediately to, say take me. put me in coach, i'm ready to play. and play they must congressman. in 40 some days the next scheduled government shutdown we will be here again another potential crisis. anna moment for potential chaos. how long will this process of trying to find that person that you say is ready, actually set back those discussions? >> well patrick mchenry is of course this beaker pro tem, that's a great choice. extremely intelligent capable member. he will guide us through the next several days. we will be voting, come wednesday. we'll be reconvening tuesday, and part of that is is the

recess is due to i understand, senator diane feinstein's funeral. so we will be handling this come next week. there is a number of things that need to be done, organizational planning. as well as those members who are going to decide to, in this race. as and seek the votes. there are two or three that are on my short list. >> who is on that list? >> well, it's a little bit too early to say. >> it's early in the night congressman who is it? >> i do believe majority leave and steve -- is highly capable, a great human being knows the operation of this and certainly meets the criteria a mention. i think jim jordan is as a strong leader, who i respect very much. there are probably a couple of others. but i offered a couple names there. my guess is they may run. but i can't speak for them, i

haven't heard that for certain as of. yet >> we heard -- in the journey in the hallway asking jim jordan,? so perhaps his name is voting for number reasons. i heard gee i didn't hear you mention matt gaetz although his name is coming up for a number reasons cause a number of your colleagues were trying to expel him nothing can be done until speakers in place. what is your opinion of matt gaetz tonight. you mentioned antics and things you thought were disingenuous. would you vote for him to get out of congress? >> no that is up to his constituents. we had a long day it's been some frustration certainly. i really believe that this wasn't done for the right reasons i think it was very much, you mentioned if it was politics, policy your principle. i think a lot of it was politics, some of it was personal. the idea that, they really couldn't articulate. they talk a lot. let's face it, matt gaetz can talk a lot.

however, there is very little detail as to what the reasons were for this initiative. and in fact on the others. but what done is done. the eighth joint with all the democrats to overthrow our elected speaker. it took 15 rounds, but we did elect him. so 200 republicans in our caucus are favorable to kevin mccarthy myself included, in today we focused on something that the american people had no interest in it in on us focusing. on kevin was capable. we were working on border security. we were working on all the crises created by this white house, as well as far too many in the democrat conference. we have inflation that is rampant. we have border security issues. we have gasoline prices at the

highest levels. there are solutions to these problems. that is what we should be focusing on. this again as i started saying, was a setback. >> one administration can't take the blame for all that you mentioned, but i wonder whether if it will be assigned to this party right now, given what took place this week, and this day. >> congressman dan meuser thank you so much for joining us tonight. >> abby? >> thanks laura let's pick up where you left off, joining us now is john avlon, cnn senior political. and still with us coleman young, andrew lang. >> john what happens to republicans what happens to republicans next? >> not a return to highly productive governing. as the previous guest said. there is a week of jockeying, trying to figure out who can carry the mantle, and trump will pick his candidates. it'll be a big week of finger-pointing, and horse racing. i think steve police isn't poll

pollution cassis got widely respected. he has authority. he is the most qualify are the most potential folks in the least devices. but the end of the day the problem instruction. we saw history today, first week or taken out of office. because of the standing that he kept government open, and had temerity to do it democratic votes. that's a firing offense in washington. you add this the legacy of john boehner, leaving the speakership cause he couldn't corral the far-right. paul ryan doing effectively the same thing. eric cancer being florida, all the young guns are gone. because the structural party within the republican party. they cannot corral their far-right. it's not going to get better. >> i want to read what isa hutchinson, a red longtime republican and running for president as well he said what happened today on the house floor is a gift to democrats. it sets off alarm bells, as

2024 approaches. >> absolutely, democrats must be feeling this. they must be feeling that the republican party looks like it cannot keep its own house clean right now. on the one hand, is a huge victory for democrats. on the other hand, i'm not sure this should be seen as a victory from anyone's perspective. ultimately, as the american citizens, the house governs all of us. you want to be willing to see people put governing the country over partisan politics. sometimes that means crossing, party lines. and joining a vote on the other side. whether that is to fund the government, or keep the speaker in power. we are seeing far too little of that on both sides, frankly. this is a loss for the country >> laura's list has you crane aid will number. one imagine is if you are one of the u.s.'s partners around the world, or ukraine itself. saying hey guys, we are fighting russia here. then you see that aid to your

military, falls into this abyss of american dysfunction. our debt got downgraded just the other day, if you think if you are ratings agency right now. you have confidence in americas credit moving forward? this is just a huge l for the country. i do sincerely wish our parties had those interests first and foremost, and instead of we're gonna look good relative to the other. guys it's a disease that's destroying the country. >> here's the problem, the democrats are so hard for them to do in a credible deal with the other side. because these guys really don't want to govern. they don't want to do anything, it's like they're trying to be fox famous. they are on tight television. what >> he was a leader in the house, to leave the congress to be a talk show host, he thought it is more important to be a talk show host than to be a leader in the congress. they are not a credible group. if you are democratic leader and you want to do a deal with a partner, you need someone on

the other side that you can trust to fill their end of it. >> i think this is a lost opportunity for democrats as well. i understand why they didn't throw him a lifeline they thought he would've been renominated, and it could've gotten better terms. something more bipartisan structural issues. but they chose not to do that. and now republicans are trying to play them what happened to mccarthy. no one should be fooled is that. this is about the far-right. we need a party that is consistently an adult in this party. it's not the republican party right now. i think that whatever the long game was for democrats? they could've risen above the partisan noise a little bit more and got some veritable turns to have general bipartisan govern going. for >> two jumanji on, you wouldn't you know who made the point that you're making here. here's republican congressman austin scott, he is not a household name that is okay take a listen to what he said. >> those eight people are anarchists, they are chaos

caucus members. they get their power from the 212 democrats voting with them all the time, the conference is gonna have to figure out how we deal with eight people that are interested in governing. they're more interested in grifting. >> the story has been up until today, always about these eight or ten or however many there are. the story tomorrow, and toward the end of the week will be what folks like that congressman do. he is angry. his face was red. the fury. because he's sick of this. they are gonna have some concessions that they want to. >> they must be sick of this, this is, don't make a too much of this analogy, the whole logic of not negotiating with terrorists because the crazy people can determine policy if they're stubborn enough, i'm not comparing a u.s. congressman to an actual terrorist, the logic is the same. the more seeing people in the

party you have to get sick of this. >> elections are choices between of the people you have, and other people. the idea that there's gonna be a magical, that someone shows up and makes everyone feel better. if you are in one hand, you've got joe biden, and kamala harris the president and vice president, who today we're dealing with lowering prescription drug prices for seniors, swearing in -- you had credible governing parting happen. and in congress you have ridiculousness. >> everybody gets the contrast, we had three bipartisan bills when democrats have the house control in the first two years of his term. but this is the point that andrew makes all the time. we actually need to see this center hold for our politics to work. those 18 republicans who are in districts that biden won, they should be exerting at least as much influence is not more than

the matt gaetz, and the extremists on the far-right who don't represent the party let alone the country. we need the center of both parties to hold and work together. structurally that's not getting done. >> we all know the nature of today's war in the republican party. the democrats and congress know the nature of today's republican party. so if you say look let's let them bring the country down, and ha, we're gonna look good relative to them. that is bad for the country. if you had had 20 democrats, that vote and, go to kevin cars and say we saved your banking, here is what you want. we're having a different conversation now. >> here's the reason that didn't happen, just as a reminder. we talked to ilhan omar about this mosque owe our. kevin mccarthy used democratic votes on saturday, then on sunday turns around and says they are the bad guys. it's >> political theater -- >> it's not just bad faith, but if you are democrat who do you go forward and say i have to work with this guy.

>> you can't let keeping this in mind, this person or that person nature, these democrats have going out and running campaigns, and they're gonna run campaigns against this chaos maga win and you might get a democratic house but. what time we had it democratic, we had infrastructure legislative, environmental laterally, child care for people for working people. we had all sorts of things that happened yet people nominated. what >> you're saying german, you can take a short term hit to the country because it'll be good for your party in the next cycle. >> it's good for the country the, country will have a governing coalition. >> i think the larger point here that is trying to be made, kevin mccarthy, there was the debt ceiling deal, democrats and republicans got us off that cliff. then he reversed himself. this is what -- nothing this is what being at mar-a-lago a couple weeks after the, he corralled power and

helped him gain the speakership, he gained it by a read for a couple months. it's not worth it. >> the question of whether kevin mccarthy could've even lead in a bipartisan fashion, i think democrats cast their votes because they didn't think he could. >> the democrats cast their vote because they were told to cast their vote in particular where there is a diversity of opinion and democratic but the word came out saying guys, we're not gonna bailout kevin mccarthy. we're gonna vote for matt gaetz in the hard-liners for partisan reason. what happens next? it's a dice roll. eisen american citizen, would prefer not to have that kind of dice role, anyone who says again, they know what is coming next, this is unprecedented. we do not know. we know that the government meant runs out of money in 45 days. we know there are vitally priorities like ukrainian aid that are now subject to us having a speaker. >> we don't know -- >> i would love to have a republican party that was a

responsible negotiating partner -- >> we will see where where this all goes everyone don't go anywhere coming up next, how frustrated are voters by all this chaos. as we've just been discussing. i'll ask a pollster next. you have 96% of your 90% of your congress is eight people with the other side. how do you govern?

breaking news tonight there is what's being called a preliminary report of four individuals shot on the campus of morgan street university in baltimore. that's chlorella courting to the baltimore city fire department. our affiliate got the shot of the window the glass broken, students are being asked to shelter in place. agents are assisting the baltimore police department. the police have told

individuals unconcerned family members and the students at morgan university to avoid the campus area. we will bring you more details as they come in. abby? >> we will be keeping our eye on that story thank you laura. back to washington now, and kevin mccarthy as you know out as speaker of the house. business in the house is now effectively paralyzed until a new speaker is elected. which won't be until maybe another week from now. with me now is republican pollster, frank luntz. frank, i know that you are a longtime friend of kevin mccarthy's. have you spoken with him tonight? what do you make of what unfolded today in the house? >> i spoke to him just before the vote he was pretty seriously concerned about the outcome i think that this reminds me of george orwell. in 1984. the people who tell the truth are accused of being liars and the liars are thought to be telling the truth it's a sad

day for my friend but i look at the country, and i'm here right now and the challenges that are happening that they're covering in the challenges to other democracies it seems like we are becoming more extreme we are snoring the wishes of the american people i want to emphasize this to everyone who's watching right now the american people wanted the government open. they want to and wasteful washington post bending they want a more effective government they want it open they want to work as speaker of the house did exactly to the letter what the public wished of him and yet he lost his vote and he lost his job do you >> do you think that mccarthy should've cut a deal with the other side? created a bipartisan path forward? is that what the american people would've wanted to see? . >> the public wants the job to be done. they wanted the government

open. it's not an issue of mccarthy cutting a deal with other side. we are on the same side. we are members of congress, whether we degree or disagree on the majority of issues, we've become so divided and we see it is our sports versus them. that is the greatest tragedy of all. i wonder just how chaotic things have to get before they stop playing this way. these are political games. i will remind you the person who brought this up, is under, we can't talk about. i don't even know what the exact charges are. matt gaetz is under, he's been charged by the ethics committee, for improper, and from what i hear, awful behavior, and now he gets rewarded. these eight members who are following someone from what i hear, could be removed by the house for a ridiculously awful

behavior. and he is dethrone the speaker of the house. so congratulation mr. gaetz. on your success. i know he's been celebrating tonight, and said tumeric and people from what i hear, those charges you have now followed someone, those embers eight members of congress. who has done awful things in private. that's why the exits committee is looking to. >> i should note that matt gaetz has denied that this has anything to do with the ethics investigation, against him. but i will say, frank, you've spoken to a panel voters about congress right now, you have also worked in conservative politics for a long time. this is the fundamental structural party problem. what message do those voters have, do you have, for republicans as they figure out a path forward? the matt gaetz's of the world, maybe it's not matt gaetz. but the matt gaetz's of the

world are not going away. >> it becomes, impossible to governor. which is what the vast majority of american people are asking. for 90%, they may disagree on the solutions in the details, but they agree on the problem. and then you've got this 10% that just wants to burn it down, and blow it up. to me, the goal should be to get the partisanship out of the system. and have people trying to get the job done. and frankly the thing i'm disappointed with, all the democratic members of the, problem solvers caucus, not one of them. voted with kevin mccarthy. i thought that, there was a sincerity, in the ever toward to work together, side by side. problem solvers caucus to get the job done. and the fact that they followed they did it 100 percent of the

democrats tells me they have a system in washington that's completely broken and the people have every right to be mad at the politicians who represent them because they chose politics over. people >> maybe they didn't see kevin mccarthy as part of the solution to the problem. isn't that a possible? >> i know it's coming next. as someone who's on the inside i know it's coming next and if they didn't like kevin mccarthy they're not gonna like the next step. by the way, for those republicans watching tonight. who's gonna donate to your campaigns? based on how you treat the will of the american people? who's gonna write a check going forward and maybe that's a good thing gets the money out of politics, i will tell you that tonight. of the future of congress has been steeled and it is going to be a democratic future, that that gaetz in those eight members. and they will be you responsible and held a boat for turning the house over to the

democrats. let what happens happens. i think that this is. strategy >> frank i hear the emotion in your voice, you've been friends with kevin for quite some, time very close for all these years. we appreciate you coming on with us tonight. >> thank you. >> laura? >> back to my table here, we are acting in listening to what's happening, the last point that he raised, about who was gonna write a check and the donations. mccarthy was a very big, prolific fund-raiser. who's gonna donate now? >> i don't know. i host an event two months ago for the speaker, a republican challenger across the country. we raised a significant amount of money. it was actually the most a mom outraised, mcafee raises money. well major donors i, won't name the person's name, wrote 1 million dollar check for republicans. they like mccarthy. all these folks are talking about, they want to have this

republican majority. you have to win elections to have a majority. i don't bide this argument from gaetz and others that they're doing this for the furtherance of conservative ideas. >> go ahead karen. >> i think though this is what we've been seeing playing out within the republican party for sometime now. the maddow weighing, the people who consider themselves republicans but not mega. the folks who are never trumpers, i don't have a party anymore. and you can hear it in frank's voice it is boiling over in this democrats we have been trying to save for some time you have eyes have to work this out because it is ungovernable we, cannot let the mega right when lead everyone around. and tried to enforce their will on the country, that is what happens. if they won frankly in january, when it took 15 rounds for kevin mccarthy to become speaker. they won, and they knew it.

and they use their power tonight. >> let me react to the sophia, former president trump did react to the news of tonight. here's what he said. >> why is it that republicans are always fight-y among themselves? -- >> trump trashes every republican every day. he's out there trashing everyone. it comes from trump's. this is mega. that is all he does every day. he's much more likely to trash republicans spent to trash putin, or tack general milley, what republicans have been saying anything about how he attacked general milley? i >> want to bring us back to what matters, governing. i want the american people to hear me, you remember your civics, the speaker of the house is second in line to the presidency? we have a vacancy in this spot. -- the reality is that right now we don't have a governing party that is functioning in this role in the majority what

happens with ukraine as we get a lead if, jim jordan speaker were not getting ukraine. money is steve scully's has to cut a deal that he will not allow money to be put into a bill for ukraine. what happens? we're talking about the nato alliance. we are talking about pre-world to footing, what happens of putin realizes there's a. weakening goes to pull in, or czechoslovakia. then what are we doing? this has serious consequences, i don't give a wraps of who's raising money. i care about who's governing. >> i just wanna play for a second, i want you to respond, i want you to get into what congressman had to say about kelly angst from in the point to raising now. >> the incentive structure in this town is broken. we have descended into a place where clicks, tv hits, in the

never ending quest for the most mediocre taste of celebrity drives decision encourages juvenile behavior that is below this governing body. >> these are the people who are picking celebrity apprentice guys as their nominee. we need to get back to things if we want to have a deal, we need to have things, they want border security. the deal that's there for the taker, the senate republicans have laid out, and worked with democrats. is to have border security money. have disaster relief, and then have ukraine money that is a solid conservative deal bipartisan deal that's there for the making, if you are concerned about crime. things that are happening. everyday where republicans should be talking about those issues not gates's latest problems or whatever is going on that is the problem. >> we need to connect the dots back why ukraine money, is a problem, the people who are opposing the rain money also

happen to be, trump people. trumpers. >> pro putin trumpers. >> to donald trump zelenskyy is an enemy. this is a way for him to exact revenge. >> the ripple he needs a republican house members to do it the first impeachment hearing you believe because. he would not go along with the scheme to dig up and create some dirt on his, soon to be at that time, joe biden, who is gonna go up in 2020, to him he's an enemy. that is how donald trump, it's very black and white for him. you are an enemy are not. his enemy putin's, he cares about very deeply talks favorably about putin. i agree with you. as a democrat, i think this is bad for the country that the republican party is so broken. i think our country is stronger when we have two strong parties,

and we are actually arguing about ideas, not all this petty you get out of your office in and you lied to me and all this kind of stuff. again, some folks want to blame it on democrats, we can't save you. you guys your party has to get together, and figure out what they owe aren't going to do about donald trump and the maga win of the party. otherwise we are gonna keep coming back to this. >> voters are sophisticated. we are an educated body. we know what matters to them. there is no one more welders to them about what they want than themselves, however i do wonder about the stake in the stench of one party bleeding on to other. at some point, even though we're talking about republicans, next week when this vote happens, they'll be camera on the floors, at some point the american people go. congress. get it together. >> congress and general. i was gonna say on the ukraine funding issue there's been a poll conducted that said 54 of

the american population said we don't want additional funding for ukraine so this idea that republicans are on an island about this issue isn't backed by data -- >> that is not true though. >> it was a cnn poll i'm looking at right now. i don't think democrats have done it a good enough job articulating to the american people why are we supporting ukraine how long is this gonna go. i'm not saying that i disagree -- >> i don't know what's happening right now one after another one of the time. we really director you for a second because to his point he's talking about not just ukraine but the issue but's point is with us about donation cause he was believed by being punished for how giving the american people what they wanted which is to keep the government open.

thinking about that what do you think the voters feel now? i think voters do want us to work together they want us to support they are they want the government open i think they do support us. supporting our allies these are issues are principal. >> not all of the voters, half of the mark and parties they were voting for donald trump no matter what. they believe that what he says is the gospel. it is the troop. >> it's a cult. >> he swished if he switched his position they would agree with him to. >> but to laura's question, i think it brings us back, to he is partially wrong. broadly the majority of the people absolutely want the problem continues to be that one third that 33% who they don't care they are with maquettes they don't care as it blows everything up they think that's a good thing.

>> the new york panel they want to get into. >> they want to be heard today. republicans chaos in the house basically paralyzed they want to weigh in what are the next steps a congressman who called the motion to vacate rule insane is up next. plus why the judge in donald trump fraud trial issued a limited gag order against the former president.

>> a historic day in american politics with the house voting to speaker mccarthy from his post. tonight, mccarthy announcing that he will not run for speaker again but, he is not counting himself completely out, at least not yet. here is what he had to say if asked whether he's considering to resign from congress. >> i have not thought about that. i'll give it as good as i get.

. you know the challenge. i knew going in. if i took a poll at the time, you will get turned out this way. but you know what, if i lose my job over doing what i truly think is right, i am very apiece. . >> joining me now is republican congressman carlos jimenez of florida. congressman, thank you for joining us tonight. >> my pleasure. >> your party now has to elect a speaker as soon as possible. are you comfortable with everyone leaving and everything in the house be on hold for a week while you all sort this out? >> i think we have to sort it out. unfortunately, 3% of our caucus and 100% of the democrats in congress have decided to create chaos over an orderly function of government. we had the best functioning as of representatives that we had in a long, long time. again, like i said, 40% of our caucus along with hunter percent of the democrats decided to throw that into

chaos. >> why take so much time? >> because, look, people have to get prepared, announced that they're running. we have to vet all of these folks who want to be speaker. maybe there will be some kind of real -- have somebody run for speaker, maybe have somebody to be a leader and all the. i think that the best thing to do is take our time. emotions are a little right now, so we need to cool down a bit. yeah, i think that it was probably a good thing to give us a little time, calm down and start looking at these candidates and see which way. go >> right now, who do you think has the most support for speakership? >> i don't have the faith decide they are now. i tell you right now, i know that there is a list of names. nobody has my vote. the person that wants my vote and a number of votes has to agree with us on the floor, a change in the rule of how a motion to vacate happens.

the one person motion to vacate, i think it is frankly insane. we cannot continue to be governed this way without any speaker and have at anytime a motion to vacate, especially when the speaker in our case that had 96% support in his own caucus, in his own conference, and that he's been taken this way. that is insanity and should never happen. >> it's a good point, this is a central issue here. what do you think is a reasonable level to prompt a motion to vacate at this point? >> i think it should be 50% of the majority in congress. >> do you think that something like that could get support from enough people to actually elect a speaker who supports at that level? >> i don't know, but that what will take to get me. i know that will take a lot to get my colleagues. no, we are not going to be giving up on this. look, i think the role that the democrats ruled under last congress, i am fine with that

rule, so, maybe democrats, if it was good enough for them last congress, maybe it's good enough for them this congress, where they will need a bipartisan effort on that side, but if we can get the democrats to help us. look, i don't blame them for not helping us, it is really our problem, then you will have to get commitment from the next speaker to be, if they want to be the next speaker, that they will put that on the floor so that at least we can vote on it. another real chance that we will make us run better, make this conference run and this congress run better. i am not going to be, and i don't think a lot of us will be held hostage anymore. we are tired of it. >> mccarthy said today, the republicans that asked him, the eight of them, are not truly conservative. but are they now more empowered than ever? >> no, they are only empowered if we let them to be empowered. i certainly do not want to be in the group that allows the eight to control the other 210,

212 of us. so, the 212 of us need to stand firm. no, we will not be governed by eight. majority rules, that is what the caucus is about. we need a speaker that will actually stand up and speak for the entire conference, and we need to have an order where amendments are debated and the democratic process scraps hold. all the rules at the bureau applied to every single entity, no matter if you are freedom caucus or whatever caucus you are, that is the way that it should be, and that is what we will be demanding and the next speaker. i don't expect the next race to be easy. we have divisions, not deep divisions. we only have divisions between 96% and 3% of our caucus, but because of our narrow margin, that 3% carries a heck of a lot more weight than it probably should. >> a very loud 3%. congressman, are you worried that all of this chaos will

hurt republicans in 2024? >> yes, i am, and that is why i don't think the ar actually true republicans. the greatest president in my lifetime and a true republican was ronald reagan, who said that he got 75 80% of what they wanted, that that was good. these eight, this fringe group, they need to get 100 percent of they want or all-star they get nothing. that is really counterproductive. i don't think they are true republicans. they really believe that ronald reagan was the greatest president in our lifetime, then maybe falls somebody who is principled and know that every once in a while, you have to compromise, not only with the democrats but, more importantly, you have to compromise inside the party itself because not all of us have the same point of view. we need to come to that realization, and end the process, work out, let the chips fall where they may, and when the votes come up, all right, we had our say, this is the way that it came out, we'll have to do another vote in unison and make sure that we

get those priorities that america needs, those bills, and a change in america that we need in order to make america better than past and pass it on to the senate. >> congressman carlos jimenez, thank you for joining us tonight. >> it's my pleasure. >> john avalon is back with me. a lot of bomb during their from a moderate republican. i really have not seen this kind of animus play out so publicly. we have not seen this a very much in our politics, but he said we are sick of being led around by the terrace among us. they want that motion to vacate level to be a half of the conference. that is a high bar considering that bob good told laura coates earlier that he wants it to be one member, which it is now. >> that directly led to this chaos. what he was saying is, look, it's time that the moderates in the caucus start actually making demands and insisting on showing their real strength of their numbers as opposed to

having a conference directed and let a round by the nose by 2%. that frustration israel, understandable that these folks have a disproportional influence, and it's an insane one person. one vote used to be the standard. >> -- politics have changed, so it should be a majority that lets that go forward. that is a reasonable demand. part of people that one stability in governing. >> it used to be one, and it was not used really at all. >> which is a sign of how much our politics has changed. >> earlier, we were talking to frank -- >> he was obviously very fired up because he is a good friend with mccarthy. he was making a lot of points about the republican party going forward from this point, and just what message the sense that the voters, with did you make of what he had to say. >> he was clearly angry, aggrieved, acting as an ally, mccarthy saying mccarthy at done with the vast majority of

americans would want, kept government open -- >> that might be true. >> it is all true, by the way. that is what is so outrageous about this with any sort of perspective. politics is the present tense. we see that right now, but the fact that the scandal that toppled the first to a speaker was keeping the government open with democratic votes shows how crazy things are. the added irony there is, and i think frank is entirely sincere about his desire to come together. god knows i agree with that. but he was a big part of how we got here by writing the context of america with new gingrich. every government shutdown since newt gingrich, the last 30 years, has been when republicans control the house. and it is usually bipartisan votes that get us out of the mess. we need the senate to show more strength. it's good to see republicans at the senate tried to say, let's not allow their percent of the caucus drive the entire party. it ends up driving the whole country into the ground. i will say this, nancy pelosi had a five --

the democrats passed 300 bills. >> the republicans are planning for that. they bring up nancy policy all the time in a favorable way. >> which is bizarre. >> she was able to cover better than kevin mccarthy ultimately was. crazier things have happened. john, thank you for joining us tonight, laura? >> well, there are new developments tonight, abby, in former president trump's civil fraud trial. the judge overseeing the case rebuke in trump after he attacked a sole clerk on social media. a judge issued a gag order insulting the president saying personal attacks of any member of my staff are unacceptable. i will not tolerate that. let's talk about this now with cnn legal analyst norm eisen and -- writer to political. number one, surprise, surprise, trump made the statement, there is a gag order in place, what will happen in this case or others if he does not follow? >> he will be sanctioned in the

first instance, likely financial sanctions, but there is a slippery slope. if he keeps doing this, and in particular, hitting that nerve, the judges staff, someone who works with every day, so close to danger, that could also include in the extreme case, confinement under new york law. >> jack smith had raised in this case about what he did in other cases as well. is there connective tissue that one judge and one case would say, you defended us all. >> i think it's not in that way, i think that there is some connective tissue, towards this huge debate for weeks now that there should be a gag order in d.c.. this judge has did it and demonstrated that it does not have to be big to do, it's not that uncommon, particularly when you have somebody behaving as outrageously as trump is behaving, in and outside court the last couple of days, so am i kind of soft on the ground a bit the way these other judges to hop on board and say, look, if he is doing it, let's not

cause the road to implode, these are criminal cases that are equally important here. >> it's more important if the attack is on someone identifiable, a phrase used by the judge as well. i do wonder and in your case, he showed up, he's there, not required, will he testify or should he? >> i think his presence in court signals the seriousness of the threat. criminal prosecutions are one thing, they're subject to a deal. the federal ones, if he or a republican is reelected or elected, there could be pardons. this goes to his financial empire, his sense of self worth, his name. the judges said it, he is inking his business license here. and he is appointing receivers. laura, it's as if -- i have been arrested for drunk driving, we take away your drunk driving and car. i am from l.a., my car is a part of my identity, so this signals the seriousness, and that is why's lawyers have said that he has said that he will

testify. he feels that he is up against it. he says a lot of things that don't come to pass. right now, i think it's more likely than not that he will try to defend himself. >> of course, he did not appear for the e. jean carroll defamation suit, and he is not required to be, and did not show up. he's been talking about this political witch hunt against him. interestingly enough, he has been going after the president's son hunter biden who is in court himself today, pleading not guilty to his gun charges. he is saying that they are targeting him, in particular and going after him, as part of the weaponized reverse order. where do you see dak is going? >> i think there is something to the notion that this is a case that would not have been charged under ordinary circumstances. it's an aggressive charging theory. the charges don't stand alone on a bases, so there is something to. however, that is all in the pass and terms of what the prosecutor discretion has been. we had a case of the four corners at the indictment. he's got some arguments, the constitutional arguments about whether or not these charges

are still appropriate under supreme court law. but these are challenging cases for defendants. the bucha charged with crimes like this, found in possession, all day every day across the country. these cases are weeded out. they are not that hard. >> last time there was a plea discussion, it imploded. if we hear that, norm, so nice to see you this evening. thank you so much. up next, as one member of congress loses his job, another gets one. the other piece of history in washington d.c. today.

>> you've seen a lot of history in the making today. you are probably so sick of it at this point. for the first time ever, the speaker of the house was removed via the house floor. there was another moment that is worth returning to today. it is that democratic senator laphonza butler made history when she was sworn in by vice president kamala harris as the first out black lesbian to end their congress and the only black women presently serving in the united states senate. >> senator butler was appointed,

as you know, but governor gavin newsom. there is still a sea left vacant by the death of dianne feinstein. she does become only the third of black woman to serve as a u.s. senator. i have to tell you, abby, my daughter who is nine, always joked with me and says, mommy, you always say historic. is there seems to happen every single day, but that might be sue in some context, but today, it was a historic occasion given the fact of who was wearing are in. >> yeah, yeah, some people are wishing for unprecedented times. no more unprecedented times, but this picture on your screen is historic, and also a no, the ties between these two women, the funds of butler, key former aide to kamala harris and her presidential campaign, kamala harris, the first black woman vice president. it's a major moment. >> it is, and it does not mean that there will be other conversations surrounding who will ultimately be the