this friday night, we're just four days out from the election and this evening both campaigns are making a huge push in battleground state wisconsin. >> kamala harris and donald trump appearing just seven miles apart from one another in the milwaukee area, of all places. harris wrapping her rally just a few moments ago. meanwhile, trump, he is still speaking. now harris once again leaning into star power this time cardi b revving up the crowd, telling them that she wasn't even going to vote this year. that is until harris became the nominee and yes, cardi b had some words for donald trump

has a concept of a plan, but america, the only concept of a plan he has is a plan to hustle you now every possible controversy from the other side. and by the way today it was no exception. and once again, you know it's about it's about rhetoric this time, it's what trump told tucker carlson just last night about his republican rival, liz cheney, the one who's backing harris. we'll play the full clip for you now she's a radical war hawk. >> let's put her with a rifle standing there with nine barrel shooting at her. okay let's see how she feels about it. you know when the guns are trained on her face, you know they're all war hawks when they're sitting in washington in a nice building saying, oh gee, will, let's send let's send 10,000 troops right into the mouth of the enemy. but she's a stupid person remember all those calls from weeks ago to tone down the

rhetoric? >> the one after not one, but two. assassination attempts against former president trump. >> it's all gone out the window now. it seems in response, cheney says, this is how dictators destroy free nations. they threaten those who speak against them with death. >> arizona's attorney general is now investigating whether trump's remark qualifies as a death threat under state law. harris says it should bar him from the white house this must be disqualifying anyone who wants to be president of the united states who uses that kind of violent rhetoric is clearly disqualified and unqualified to be president we've heard that a lot, haven't we? now, the trump campaign says he is being misrepresented here. now, you heard what he said. the full context was there. so i ask you to be the judge about what you

fully heard. but when trump addressed it today. let me tell you, he made no walkback i think that liz cheney is a disaster. >> all she wants to do is blow people up. she's a war hawk and a dumb one at that. >> and if you ever put her into the field of battle she'd be the first one to check it out. she wouldn't fight. she'd chicken out so fast. and that's all i say. >> now, look it's friday night, and if you're trying to make sense of everything that happened this week, you'd be forgiven. if you can't remember all. and i mean all of the controversies today, it was the comment. yesterday. it was harris surrogate, mark cuban, saying that strong, intelligent women are never around trump. see wednesday trump saying he'd protect women whether they like it or not. tuesday president biden calling trump supporters garbage only to clarify that's not what he

way back to monday, the day after a comedian called puerto rico garbage at trump's madison square garden rally that was all that in five days. and we've got still four left. cnn is following both campaigns on the ground in wisconsin. m.j. lee is with harris, the milwaukee suburb of west allis. and kristen holmes is with trump in milwaukee. m.j., let's start with you here. the harris campaign is digging in on all of these offensive trump comments. but do they think it's going to get get through to voters who are still on that fence this kind of rhetoric coming campaign is making a difference. >> now to be clear, they very much believe that this is going to be a really close race, that likely will come down to the margins in just a number of states that are so critical in these battleground areas that is why we are seeing the vice president come back to campaign in wisconsin. even though she was last here on wednesday

night. but what's been interesting laura, is hearing the harris campaign talk a little bullishly about what they have been seeing in the early voting data and particularly the people they say only made up their minds on who to vote for in about the last week or so. and one of the things that they are pointing offensive and incendiary rhetoric that we've heard in recent days from the former president at this rally, i got the chance to talk to a number of the voters here and of course, yes, this was a kamala harris rally. so it's no surprise that you would expect most of the people here to be at least interested in her if not, have already voted for her. but a number of them, i noticed, actually pointed specifically to things that they read in the news and saw in the news coming from that madison square garden rally that you referenced, including that comedian's comments about people in puerto

rico. and i just thought i'd leave you, laura, with this one anecdote. i spoke with one man, a 44 year old man named eric who says he has a big irish catholic family. he himself is a lifelong democrat and he said, look, i have a number of uncles who are donald trump supporters, but a number of them have actually told him that this time around, they simply can't support donald trump. he says he doesn't know exactly the reason why he assumes that a part of the reason has to do with some of this divisive rhetoric that we're hearing from the donald trump campaign. the thing about next week is we are going to see whether this is just the story of one family or whether there are going to be many other families that actually are encountering this kind of a shift in who they actually want to support because of some of these headlines coming out of the donald trump campaign. >> well, we're less than a month away from thanksgiving as well. those tables where that might happen are going to be interesting. really quick, before i let you go, m.j., how

did that crowd respond to cardi b's comments in her speech >> and i think particularly because she's not somebody we are used to in this kind of a setting in a political campaign rally delivering a speech. and i should also think, what was a teleprompter malfunction quite gracefully. she waited until somebody brought her a phone that actually had the remarks on them. she acknowledged she took sips of water. she was nervous but it was very clear that the crowd in this room absolutely loved it. what was remarkable was hearing cardi b say she actually probably wouldn't have voted in the 2024 election until vice president kamala harris became the nominee the clear suggestion there being that she probably would not have been a joe biden supporter. but now she is trying to get everyone out to support the vice president. m.j. lee, thank you so much. i want to go now to kristen

holmes, who's in milwaukee. kristen trump is defending his violent comments against liz cheney. is the campaign worried that this will hurt him you know who hated him? >> the most? >> well, it's obviously a big question, laura. i mean, we almost never see donald trump try to clarify comments that he made. he'll say something and then he'll leave it to the campaign. leave it to his surrogates to get out there and get on the stage and try to clean up after him. donald trump himself even before he started talking about those liz cheney comments posted on truth social, trying to clarify that this was all about liz cheney wanting to go to war, saying that she would never fight in a war. >> then he spent a lot of the day repeating those kind of comments as he tried to clarify. here you go. take a listen to what he said. >> what that means kamala is campaigning with war mongers like liz cheney. >> how do you think that is? they want to get the they want to get the arab american vote. they want to get the muslim votes. so she picks liz cheney, whose father virtually

destroyed the middle east right. i don't think that's i don't think it's working out too well we took out thousands and these are just some of the comments that he said he had multiple stops today. he talked about it multiple times. now here in wisconsin, he actually has not mentioned it at all. he is trying to stick to immigration and the economy but it's been kind of a weird rollout here. he has a mic that has had issues and knowing donald trump, it's been a profane rant about how he has to hold the how he has to hold the microphone, how people have failed him because no one can hear him. so a lot of focus on that. but one thing to keep in mind, i know mj was talking about this. wisconsin is a pivotal state. donald trump was also here on thursday. he is spending an enormous amount of time here. when i talked to both campaigns, there's not a ton of transparency as to what exactly is going to happen on the ground in wisconsin. i talked to a number of voters who say they also don't know.

now everyone here, obviously, i'm at a trump rally they're here to support him. they were cheering for rfk jr.. they're very excited to get out and vote. they all say they're going to cast their ballots. but there are still a lot of questions as to how exactly this is going to turn out on tuesday. just a reminder of how close this race was in 2020. donald trump's team is fearful that it could go the other way but they are also hopeful that they can drive people out for early voting. that's why they're holding so many events today this week, trying to get people to the polls early. >> laura. >> kristen holmes, thank you so much. with me now, valencia johnson, a democratic strategist olivia troy, former adviser to vice president mike pence. and she has endorsed harris and lance trover. republican strategist and former spokesman for doug burgum's presidential campaign. thank you all for joining us. i want to begin with you here lance, because, look, trump is standing by his comments. there are a lot of americans, though, who have said that they are over the divisive rhetoric. i wonder if this is going to come back to haunt the trump campaign. this

sustained level of rhetoric it's hard for me to imagine that to be the case. >> voters know who donald trump is. this is nothing they are very i say this all the time. they are very clear eyed about who he is and he's still tied or leading in the polls or just within the margin of error. but i'm really glad you played that montage earlier, because it has been quite a week, and i think for most voters at this juncture of a campaign, it is what they consider to be the silly season where both campaigns and i think you summed it up very well, are latching on to what something else that the other campaign has said or done. and really at this moment, if you're undecided and i think there are a few maybe 3 to 5% of people out there, if you're undecided in this race, you're really it's them. and to me it's more about what is the future what is the future look like for my family? do i like what's been going on in the last four years? and i think that's the overriding problem for the harris campaign that consistently in polling

shows that 70% of the country thinks we're on the wrong track. and in the two top issues, the economy and cost of living along with immigration. donald trump leads by typically by double digits in those polling. >> well here's another set of two e words. one is exhaustion and the other one is encouragement. and i wonder how the candidates will encourage or exhaust by their rhetoric and how the voters really feel about that. olivia, let me ask you, because you have said that trump's comments, they're meant to silence. they're meant to intimidate anyone who dares to oppose him. and another republican who has endorsed harris, joe walsh. he thinks that trump's comments have been taken out of context, that he was actually making a point about cheney's war stance. walsh said on x, i'm quoting here about trump's quote, saying the stuff he says is bad enough that we don't have to lie about it. what are your thoughts on that well you know, i have a different take than joe walsh. >> having worked for donald trump. i know that when donald trump says things he's very

calculated and he says what he means, and so you don't make a flippant comment like that. if you want to call someone a war hawk, there are definitely different ways that you can word that and stress your point. you don't have to go to the extent of saying you're going to point nine barrels at someone and shoot at them and i think to me, when you say things like that, i think one, it's unpresidential. two, i want to be very clear about this. donald trump has sat in the oval office, where he has had national security people tell him that his words matter and that when he says things, they actually sometimes incite violence and that actually leads to real world consequences in our communities. so i don't take donald trump's statements lightly at any point, because he knows that what he's doing will eventually lead to putting targets on the people's backs that he calls enemies. and look, he's been calling for military tribunals. on liz cheney so none of this to me is hyperbole and i think we need to take this very seriously. >> you know, it's a fascinating point as well as that's the point that the

harris campaign is trying to make, the to do list versus the enemies list. but tonight, speaking of liz cheney, liz cheney is is urging former president george w bush to actually endorse harris and come out and endorse her. listen to this i can't explain why george w bush hasn't spoken out, but i think it's time, and i wish that he would nicolle wallace, is urging him to do the same. how could that possibly help? >> listen, it is i think if we're looking at the bigger coalition, it might be a tricky situation to bolster some of these republicans when we also are trying to make sure progressives feel comfortable showing up to the polls on election day. but what i do see is happening is this permission structure being built for independents and republicans particularly, like a lot of republican women who are tired of trump's rhetoric, who are tired of the divisiveness and who are tired of his positions

on some policies that are actually really concerning for them, particularly dobbs. and so it is interesting to see this. i think it could help some of the maybe independents or nikki haley voters that folks are trying to figure out how they're going to vote. maybe they would get up from the couch and actually show up and secretly cast their ballot for vice president. harris, do you think that the nikki haley supporters are offended that she is not been enveloped into this campaign? i mean, after she dropped out of the race, she still got votes. the fact that he's not used her, she's offered dates and beyond that, there are comments about women that she has told the campaign. what you're saying could be very alienating. this whole hyper bro mentality problematic. is that going to make undecided voters who are saying, i didn't want you in the first place now say i'm going to stay home or all right, harris, you got my vote. >> listen, i think nikki haley voters saw and heard it was more than her, right? it was a departure from donald trump and

so her whether she was involved or not, i think some of them were what i've gathered, some of them were actually disappointed when she showed up and supported him right. because as we've known with donald trump, no matter how much people try to engulf him with actually you know, strategy and what he should focus on, he doesn't listen. he doesn't pay attention. and so i think for those voters who might be independent and, you know less far right conservatives, they're trying to figure out do i stay at home or do i show up for vice president harris? and i think that's who liz cheney is trying to appeal to with the hopefully, a george bush endorsement that she's hoping for. >> olivia, when you think about lance's earlier comment about the idea of people being exhausted thinking or they also know him and therefore they're not going to necessarily look at every single detail of his statements and hold it against him. the senior harris campaign official really feels as though the comments specifically about puerto rico, that those are the ones that are breaking through,

that in this final week, people are finally leaning in. if that's what people are looking at, then this week has been horrible for the trump campaign. do you see that as within the campaign, a kind of course correction moment? does he will he take the time to try to change perceptions or is he just going to say here i am. that's what they said. forget it >> course correcting at all. i mean, certainly they're trying. they would try to distance themselves from it, but this is who they are. and i want to be very clear about that. and so i think what happened this week is that now it's finally in the open, you know, the things that were said behind closed doors and the things that they did to withhold aid from puerto rico, which i lived firsthand. now we're talking about it truly feel about anyone who doesn't fit into their mold of what they think america should be and so i think people are paying attention and, look, i have been traveling to battleground states. i was in north carolina yesterday and i was in wisconsin today, traveling to different parts of the state. and i'll say this, i'm talking to independent and

republican voters who are watching this, some of them who are actually in these last few days looking at everything and saying, you know what i actually don't want to be a part of this. i don't want to be identified like this. and i think, you know, i may not agree on everything that's going on here on the harris campaign. and, you know, i may not agree with their policies, but enough is enough and it's time for you know, for us to have a president that actually behaves in a presidential way and wants to actually make a difference for the country, instead of sitting there with this ignorant divisive rhetoric that continues to be espoused by trump and his campaign we'll see what the voters think. four days from now. stand by everyone. still ahead. >> what the newest polling suggests about that potential pathway to 270 electoral college votes plus, who's making the better case about the economy? our debate tonight between anthony scaramucci and mr. wonderful, aka kevin o'leary is next

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to get results for you. her plans cut middle class taxes and price gouging protect medicare and social security, and make life more affordable. >> i will always put the middle class and working families first. >> trump fights for trump kamala fights for you f pac is responsible for the content of this ad. >> so how did you two meet? actually, it's a pretty funny story. is he taken? >> it's all yours. >> we met and separated. >> oh no. >> not again. you. it's you. >> you got separated again no. how do you plan to find her? oh, i just don't say fate. >> destiny basically, how you met was a total serendipity our holiday story. >> check your local listings. >> part of countdown to christmas only on hallmark channel. >> when it comes to investing we live in uncertain times. some assets can evaporate at the click of a button, others can deflate with a single policy change savvy investors know that gold has stood the test of time as a reliable,

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san francisco's leadership is failing us. that's why mark farrell is endorsing prop d. because we need to tackle our drug and homelessness crisis just like mark did as our interim mayor. mark farrell endorsing prop d, to bring the changes we need for the city we love. to muesli.com/tv. >> i'm victor blackwell in the battleground state of georgia and this is cnn for voters, the economy is personal. >> look at this latest national poll pocketbook issues remain

the top concern voters are looking for financial relief. here's a part of vice president harris's final pitch when i am elected, i will walk in with a to do list on behalf of you bringing down your cost of living that will be my focus every single day as president and donald trump's closing message we will bring back our economy and very affordable again. i will cut your energy prices in half within 12 months. we're going to cut it in half. we have liquid gold and then everything else is going to come down all biden. nomics. joining me now for a spirited debate on kamala nomics and trumponomics shark tank, shark tank judge kevin

o'leary, aka mr. wonderful. he's also the chairman of o'leary ventures and former trump white house communications director anthony scaramucci aka the mooch. he has endorsed kamala harris for president. good to see both of you. i'll begin with you a hallmark of trump's economic agenda. and the washington post reporting a number of businesses are actually warning americans are going to pay the price. you've got a number of people talking about this very issue. autozone making comments. if we get terrorists who will pass those tariffs costs back to the consumer. columbia sportswear we're set to raise prices. stanley black and decker will have to do some surgical price actions. look, you've called for trump's plan make things more expensive? >> actually we have tariffs in place now. biden-harris administration did not remove any of them that were in place when they took over the administration and going through congress right now, and a bill that i approve of is a

reciprocal tariff act, basically looking at each nation's tariff against us and matching it exactly the same and that all works with the exception of china. china came in to the wto in 1999 and has not played by the rules, not a single year. and i do business there along with millions of others. and i know how it works. they cheat, they steal. there's no ip protection. we can't by land the same way they use our courts. we can't do the same there. they litigate us here we can't do that. they don't play by the rules and compliance and listing their companies. so that's a different narrative. all i want to do with china is to bring the supreme leader to washington, to negotiate a level playing field like we have in the act. now, tariffs themselves have been called many different titles, including sales tax. that's not true. tariffs are there. they're generally used temporarily to level the different. for example germany puts a 10% tax on us on automotive. we do the same to them. most of our trading partners understand why we do this to each other but not china. there's nothing wrong

with tariffs. and they're used politically to tell people, oh, my goodness. it's just horrible. they're already there and basically i don't think they're going away and they're going to be debated by whoever becomes president but i want to say, well, hold on a second. i want to hear anthony's take on that is sure anthony. >> well, listen, i mean, you know what kevin's leaving out of it, of course, is that this is a form of regressive taxation. it eats up the disposable income of middle and lower income people, and it would help american corporations. it would obviously give ceos around america a very big salary boost. and i and i understand why the president or the former president wants to use it. but, you know what i don't like about what kevin is saying? and i love kevin. and we're very close friends, and he's on the wrong side of this and i would just say, kevin, i've got nine years more of experience working with this guy than you, and he hurts everybody. so get out of the way, kevin. where a don't wear one of those garbage can detector reflectors. wear a bulletproof vest because you got to you got to be very careful with this guy. he's

calling on shooting people. he acts nuts. he says the most ridiculous things that are very harmful to our citizens. he's cruel and the stuff that he's talking about is an economic plan, is going to be an economic disaster for the lower and middle income people. >> so. so for all those reasons, i'm begging you, as a friend, you can run kevin, run, run for your lives. but by the way, i hope you're a citizen now. i mean, he probably likes you today, but if he doesn't like you tomorrow, you're going to be out the door with me milley and cheney. so you got to be careful, kev. i'm just telling you i see a bad human being listen, i love mooch, too we we know each other very, very well. we're on different sides of this. as he said, laura, i just want to commend you on doing something that no other network is doing right now, trying to drill down into policy. we have lost policy narrative completely this week in the last few days before the election, nobody knows what anybody's policy is. it's just rhetoric both sides. but you know what mooch just did? there is attack the candidate. i want

to talk about the policies. >> can you separate the two for the voters though i did both i attacked the candidate and the policy okay. but it was an ad hominem and a factual attack on policy. >> i want to point something out. 45% of this country hated trump last year they hate trump tonight there's 45% of the country loves trump and they love him tonight the last 10% will decide. and what i find so stressed about this cycle is both of these candidates know less than less than 200,000 people are going to decide who becomes president. why don't they tell them how they're going to make their lives better then call them nazis or suggest gunfire or all the rest of this crap that is completely irrelevant. and i think it's a waste of time. i don't care what a rapper says about because it's hate. it's not irrelevant because it's hate speech and you're calling puerto ricans piles of garbage, and you're telling people you're going to use the american military against your political adversaries. and the

fox news guy says, you know, wait, you don't really mean that he said, oh, no, no, i really do mean that. that is two quarts of mooch. >> i asked you to come back to policy. let's talk. the country that i got born in is united states. the first name is united trumps wants to divide people he's a very. >> let's talk about another policy. let's talk about another policy. hold on don't wait. don't talk over each other. hold on a second. i want to ask this question because i know you want to talk about policy kevin. i know you do as well anthony. but if these last 200,000 people are the ones who are deciding the issues, do you really think they're talking about the granular detail of the policy or they're talking about the person who would actually put that policy very big role? >> but my point is, they've made their mind up about character. they've already decided they know who they want to vote for the majority of this country, in fact, 55 million have already voted. let's talk policy. let me throw another policy nugget out there for mooch. okay let's talk corporate taxes at 28%.

what harris is deportations though right okay. wait we'll get there to economic policy. we'll get there too. let's talk about 28% increase in corporate taxes that would be the highest in the history of the united states ever penned ever. right now, we're sitting in the middle of the g20 and competitiveness that would take us to the bottom quartile overnight is that a good thing for explain why that is a good thing? if she's going to do it and she says she is going to do it, she's going to raise taxes at 28%. that will drive jobs and companies back to ireland like they did last time taxes were 28%. it's a bad idea. 88% of jobs. >> is it a bad idea? >> 100%? >> well, you i think the clinton tax rates were roughly around there. i think he's talking about the oecd competitiveness, but we're running a $36 trillion deficit. donald trump's plan is going to balloon the deficit. he spent $2 trillion of deficit spending

in eight years. oh i'm sorry, 8 trillion. you know, two a year. and it was george w, it was george washington, the george w bush 7 trillion donald trump in four years, 8 trillion. he's on his way to economic plan. so that will absolutely kill the people i grew up with the lower middle income people because they have to devalue the dollar. they have to create inflation. but let's go to the deportation because that's 75 to 80 basis points off the gdp. he's talking about deporting 15 million people. it's an agenda 47. it's in project 2025. >> let's just go over the math of that because he's an economist that i'm talking to. he knows you pull those people out of the country, you're going to crush the economy. you're going to reduce our tax revenues and you're going to increase the burden on social security. let me just give kevin this fact to ponder for mr. trump. 1.8 million people deported in a year is $88

billion. in that year. the government has to spend to find them in the handmaid's tale cars and put them in concentration camps. these people are crazy, okay? and the american people need to wake up to how absolutely crazy they are so that we can stay the course. and kevin knows stock market is good, we're doing better manufacturing is returning to the united states. wages are up. we just have to work on the inflation. and kevin knows this is systemic inflation. this is not born global inflation. here's what here's what i'm sorry kevin hold on gentlemen i'm sorry. but kevin i'm going to give anthony the final word because i called you mr. wonderful. and that name gave you more weight just now. so i'm going to be nice. come back. both of you, about this thing. yeah. you can i'm good. you can give him the final. >> he's so wrong hey, laurie. >> he's so wrong. give him the final word so that people can actually see what he's saying is ridiculous let me have the final word, and i will give you the final word. thank you. i will give you my word, i will give i will take the

am i talking? >> i'm saying i will give you the final word, but i will give you the cliffhanger. i want you both to be back on. is your word going to be a sentence, kevin, or is it going to be longer because i know you know, i'm going to give you a sentence. >> if she if she loses, it's because the democratic party circumvented democracy and they anointed her the problems that plagued her in 19. and in 2020 and are the same. she has today. and obviously nobody thought that through. and if she i'm just saying if she loses, they will never do this again. and they shouldn't have in the first place and doesn't transform a sentence into like something less than a paragraph. i got to go, fellas. we'll have you back on soon. thank you so much. be sure to check out anthony on cnn's check out. they must have a hell of a group chat i want in be sure to check out anthony on cnn's all new episode of i've got news for you. he joins comedian sam jay along with roy wood jr., amber ruffin and michael ian black tomorrow at 9

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>> well, what's election savings time? that's where we are right now. because we don't even know who's going to win. of course, that's how democracy works. but we can game out how trump or harris could win. what are their best paths to 270? >> yeah, let's start off with kamala harris's best path to 270 electoral votes. and you'll notice her best path gets her to exactly 270 electoral votes. how does this path work? well, it's simply put she wins the great big blue wall in the great lakes states. she wins wisconsin. she wins michigan. she wins pennsylvania that affords her to lose north carolina, georgia, arizona, and nevada. and she still gets to exactly 270 electoral votes as long as of course, she holds on to nebraska's second congressional district, where the polling does in fact, have her favorite. all right, so that's kamala harris's best path. what is donald trump's best path to 270 electoral votes? it looks an awful bit like kamala harris's best path, but one state is flipped in this scenario and that, of course, is the great commonwealth of pennsylvania, where the polls right now are

so razor tight. you look at one poll, harris is ahead. you look at another poll, trump's ahead. you take an average of all the polls, and you basically go shrug emoji. you have no idea who's ahead. and that gets trump to 287 electoral votes. as long as he carries the sunbelt where he's polling stronger than he is in the great lakes right now. laura. >> well, i mean, speaking of the polls, though, and, you know, they show right now this deadlocked race and your map shows something very, very interesting. but what happens if they're off like they were in 2020 and 2022? >> yeah what happens if the polls miss? well, if the polls are off like they were in 2020. and of course donald trump was underestimated, not just in 2020 but 2016 as well. but if they're off like they were in 2020, look at this donald trump gets up to 312 electoral votes. why because he wins in the southwest he wins in the southeast battleground states and he wins in the great lakes battleground states as well. he wins all seven battleground states. and he exceeds 300 electoral votes. now, a lot of my friends say, well, you know,

the polls have underestimated donald trump twice. why don't they underestimate him a third time as well? well, keep in mind, just two years ago, what happened with the polls? well, they underestimated the democrats across the board laura. and so if the polls are off like they were in 2022, what happens here? well, then kamala harris sweeps all of the important battleground states. she wins in the great lakes. she wins in the southeast she wins in the southwest. and get this she gets up to 319 electoral votes. and that's the thing i think is so important for the audience to understand. yes, the polls are razor tight right now, but polls are not perfect. do not be surprised if when all the votes are tallied, that one of the candidates actually scores a blowout in the electoral college, anything is on the table at this point, laura. >> well, i mean given that it took nearly a week to call the race in 2020, when you remember this but what do you think we'll know and when will we know the winner? do you think this time around? >> well, i wish i knew the answer, but i can give you a

clue as to when it might happen so pennsylvania, as we pointed out is the all important battleground state and so i think this gives you an idea of sort of the range of potential results. so when cnn projected pennsylvania well, in 2020, it took until 11:24 a.m. on saturday, all right. so that was a long time after the election. that was four days after the election. but in 2022, in the senate race in pennsylvania, the race was actually projected on wednesday early morning at 1:12 a.m.. now, what was the difference between the two of those years? well, first off, the race for president in 2020 was considerably closer than the race for senate. the margin was one point in 2020 for president, for senate in 2022, it was five points. but more than that, what took so long? it was the great amount of mail ballots and pennsylvania wasn't used to counting all those mail ballots. the number of mail ballots will be lower this time around, most likely, and pennsylvania has become a little bit better but if it ends up like a one point margin, don't be surprised if we have to wait a while. >> this is going to go right to the end right through the tape. if you look closely. a gray

hair just popped out of mine. i'm going to run right through that tape, laura. i'm going to run right through that tape, right through the camera i'll cheer you on from the side and hand you a cup of water. >> how about that harry enten. >> sounds perfect. thank you. so much. >> shalom well, my next guest is one of the most prolific authors in history writing fictional legal thriller. >> after thriller. but tonight he's using his talents to highlight a very troubling reality in this country. legendary writer john grisham joins me from our friday night conversation next taking a break from breaking news to air. >> have i got news for you? >> breaking news i'm getting a sandwich. >> we need to talk about what constitutes breaking news. have i got news for you? tomorrow at 9:00 on cnn and stream next day on max emergency crystals pop and fizz when you throw them back and who doesn't love a good throwback

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>> malignant narcissists exhibit a grandiose sense of self-importance derive pleasure from causing harm, and are incapable of caring about other people's feelings. >> this explains donald trump's pathological lying. his misogyny, his admiration for dictators and his criminal behavior. >> trump is incapable of caring about you, our country, and the constitution that a president swears to faithfully execute. he's only capable of caring about himself. >> that is why donald trump is unfit for office. >> this is why he's a danger to the republic. >> donald trump has no choice but to be a malignant narcissist well, we have the choice. >> we can choose whether or not to put a malignant narcissist in the white house. >> again anti psychopath pac, inc. is responsible for the content of this advertising snacking history. >> first, epic footlong cookies, churros and pretzels. now all new $3 foot long

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>> so check allstate first for a quote that could save you hundreds. >> what's up? you seem kind of sluggish today. >> things aren't really moving. >> you could use some metamucil metamucil psyllium fiber helps keep your digestive system moving so you can feel lighter and more energetic. metamucil keeps you moving and try fizzing fiber plus vitamins. we all need fiber for our digestive health, but less than 10% of us get enough each day. good thing metamucil gummies are an easy way to get prebiotic plant based fiber. with the same amount of fiber as two cups of broccoli. metamucil gummies the easy way to get your daily fiber intake airborne. >> it has seven key nutrients to help fill those holes. your immune system may have what holes new airborne seven immune supporting nutrients. our most complete support yet. >> i'm alayna treene in the battleground state of michigan, and this is cnn breaking tonight some justice for breonna taylor.

>> former louisville, kentucky police detective brett hankinson found guilty of violating taylor's rights by using excessive force. hankinson fired ten shots through her apartment's covered window and door during a botched raid that left taylor dead. none of those shots hit taylor. hankinson is one of four officers involved in the incident charged by the doj. he is now the first to be convicted. taylor's mother, speaking outside the courthouse tonight i just want people to continue to say breonna taylor's name and and that she deserves justice members of the 12 person federal jury were in tears as the verdict was read. breonna taylor was only 26 years old when she was killed highlight the stories of people who have been wrongfully convicted. >> people like rosa jiminez, who served 18 years of a 99 year sentence behind bars for a

crime she did not commit or christopher dunn, who was in jail for 34 years before his 1991 murder conviction, was overturned. and it turns out we have this in common with bestselling author john grisham. you might know him as the acclaimed author of the firm or the client, or a time to kill. just a few. but in his latest book, framed grisham focuses on people swallowed crimes they did not commit. i spoke to him earlier about the book and why this topic is such a passion for him. here's our conversation. thank you so much for joining me today. the world is your fan and you are known for the most amazing thrillers and bestselling fiction and novels this book, though, is a departure. it focuses on ten true stories of wrongful convictions. i know you serve on the board of, i think, two organizations advocating to free those who are innocent why is this so important to you well, it's a huge problem in this country in the criminal

justice system that does not get a lot of attention until we have, you know, a big high guy who served 30 or 40 years in prison. >> we all say, god, that's awful, but it doesn't really affect me, but it affects a lot of people. there are a lot of a lot of innocent people in prison. and you know, we wrote the book to try to bring awareness to the issues and also try to explain how and why wrongful conviction convictions happen. people ask me all the time, are these stories real? if so, how do they really happen? how can we screw up so badly in these cases? and the book explains that. >> i mean, what did you find was the connective tissue, because that that question that people ask, how could this have happened? it's not rhetorical. >> oh, we found a lot of stuff. i mean, i found i didn't discover anything. the causes have been there forever. it's bad police work. it's police who are under a lot of pressure to solve a big crime it's. it's prosecutorial misconduct.

and prosecutors and policemen are immune. basically, in our system from from liability. if they get it wrong, it's the proliferation of bad forensics and junk science in courtrooms. it's a it's allowing um, jailhouse snitches to testify, incentivized informants to testify. it's it's false confessions. it's it's there's a whole sad list of causes of wrongful convictions. and we cover all of them in the book. the ten stories cover virtually every reason that we have wrongful convictions. >> i mean just the the gamut that you describe i myself have been a prosecutor. i am morally opposed to the death penalty. never intentionally ever prosecuted in a jurisdiction that would have the death penalty i can tell you it was something that i never thought i would ever truly wrap my mind around. the idea of handing power over to someone and saying decide their fate.

convince someone with your persuasive ability of something. and then the possibility that you could be getting it wrong. i mean there is so much weight that goes into those moments and of course, you also have the racial element of it. since 1989, since 1989, there have been half of those black people talking about the role of racism in wrongful convictions well, that's a that's a long talk. >> it's a complicated issue but it's just a fact that racism is a huge factor in every prosecution from, from the from the crime scene to the suspicion of somebody to, to rounding up suspects to to jailing to interrogating, to indicting, to trying to to jury selection to jury deliberation, to the guilty verdict, even to sentencing even to paroling years later race is always a

factor. how did you decide the cases that you were going to narrow down to? because frankly, and sadly, there is an abundance to choose from, right yeah. >> my coauthor, jim mccloskey runs a centurion ministries and jim and centurion have exonerated 40 years. and so jim lived these stories. he was on the front lines with these people for years and he and i were old buddies. we sat down and we we discussed writing the book and and that was the first question, how are we going to choose ten out of 100, out of 200, out of 300. great cases? and we have our favorites. and jim had his favorites. and so we finally whittled the list down to ten. he wrote five, i wrote five, and we didn't edit each other's work. we knew how, we knew how to tell a story. so we did that. but it was it was it was not difficult. i changed halfway through. i had my first four cases and

case that i enjoyed reading about for many years. terrible case. and we then we discovered this case in chester, pennsylvania these three young black men who were who were cleared by dna evidence 25 years ago and and it didn't matter. they served 25 years in prison for a crime committed by someone. they have his dna. there's all kinds of dna at the crime scene. blood, semen, everything it all matches one person who has never been identified. he's out there. maybe he's dead now. we don't know. but the three suspects were not included. they were excluded by dna. clearly were not involved in the crime. and. and then they're serving life without parole in pennsylvania and they've been there for 25 years, and we're trying to get them out. >> i got to tell you what i like about you. in addition to all that you have ever done and written, is that you choose to do and focus on highlighting what could actually change the trajectory of justice in this

country. and i wonder if you ever have moments when you kind of just want to go back to a kind of innocence so to speak, once this, once this band aids off, it's hard not to feel the sting. >> the heavier books do become sort of a burden at times, but i keep telling myself, you know maybe they're doing some good, maybe they're changing the way people think. well you can take out the word maybe and just say the rest. i've got an idea for you though. here's one. it's called the anchor it's about this former prosecutor turned cnn anchor. i don't know, you just think about it, john. just think about it. don't don't answer it today. it might be about laura coates. i'm just saying it's a thought. >> well, it could be some dead bodies in there too. so be careful. be careful. you know what be careful what i wish for. you're absolutely right never mind. thank you so much, john grisham. nice to talk to you. thank you my pleasure. thanks for having me a thank you to john grisham for that conversation. >> and hey, thank you all for watching anderson cooper 360 is next

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to get results for you. her plans cut middle class taxes and price gouging, protect medicare and social security, and make life more affordable. >> i will always put the middle class and working families first. >> trump fights for trump kamala fights for you ph pac is responsible for the content of this ad. >> so how did you two meet? >> actually, it's a pretty funny story. >> is he taken? >> it's all yours. >> we met, got separated. >> oh, no. >> not again. you. >> it's you. you got separated again. oh no. >> how do you plan to find her? oh, and just don't say fate. >> destiny basically, how you met was a total serendipity our holiday story. check your local listings. part of countdown to christmas only on hallmark channel. >> when it comes to investing we live in uncertain times. some assets can evaporate at the click of a button, others can deflate with a single policy change savvy investors know that gold has stood the

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san francisco's leadership is failing us. that's why mark farrell is endorsing prop d. because we need to tackle our drug and homelessness crisis just like mark did as our interim mayor. mark farrell endorsing prop d, to bring the changes we need for the city we love. other. >> and it all comes down to this. >> we can now make a major projection the way only cnn can bring it to you. election night in america special coverage begins tuesday, november 5th at four on cnn closed captioning brought to you by optimum enhanced calming for cats. >> if your cat sprays outside the litter box, fights with other cats or scratches the furniture, they could be >> to help them feel more calm. try feel away. optimum tonight on 360. new polling. some of the last before the election. on where the race stands and how it might change over the next four days. also liz cheney and vice president harris respond to what the former