transformed our party, he has inspired a movement. >> rewarding loyalty, donald trump looks to stack his white house with staunch defenders as he is expected to tap senator marco rubio as the nation's top diplomat. bracing for retribution, doj employees preparing for the retribution that trump has promised. >> i want the donald trump agenda implemented. >> jockying for leadership, republicans scramble for the top spot in the senate but who will the president elect endorse? and pushing back, trump's new border czar message to democratic governors planning to reject the deportation plan. all right, just a few seconds before 6:00 a.m. here on the east coast. a live look at the beautiful sunrise in new

york city on this tuesday morning. we are one week out from the election now. it feels like longer. i don't know how you feel about it. anyway, good morning, it is wonderful to have you with us. the second trump white house is taking shape as donald trump picks more cabinet members and other high ranking officials. the president elect making the decision with one key trait top of mind. >> loyalty, we could use more of that. >> we love loyalty. >> people in politics are very disloyal. >> some of these people have a 10% loyalty meaning if they sneeze in the wrong direction, they are gone. >> i would wipe the floor with people who disloyal. >> if given the chance, i will get even with people who were disloyal to me.

>> how do you define disloyal? >> they didn't come to my aid. >> loyalty that trump has prized throughout his life and one that is key to getting a job in the second trump white house. shortly after the white house, mike davis and legal operative and possible for attorney general wrote this on x. dear trump job seekers before asking for help, i'm going to ask you for specific evidence of loyalty to trump, end quote. the headline this morning in the wall street journal, loyalty is common thread as trump fills foreign policy immigration jobs. cnn's steven collinson wrote this. each anticipated pick has one thing in common, ultraloyalty to trump including his indictment strewn post presidency. each person is known for paying exaggerated homage in television that the president adores. a sense of

debraille in trump's first term when officials prioritized oath to constitution over him. trump is likely to pick marco rubio for secretary of state. he will join governor kristi noem for secretary, tom homan border czar, stephen miller for chief of policy and elise stefanik as ambassador to the united nations. each of them staunch trump loyalists and each saying they are all in on trump and not question his agenda. >> the only way to make america wealthy and safe and strong again is to make donald trump president again. >> i was a proud member of donald trump's impeachment defense team. >> he destroys our enemies and

swiftly without hesitation. >> he sat across the table from the bureaucrats and the generals and said if you don't give our troops what they need, you know what he told the generals? you're fired. >> these cartels are animals and that's why trump will take them off of the face of the earth. >> are you going to surrender or follow the example of president donald trump and fight, fight, fight to the finish and save this nation, save this country, save this civilization, and save this glorious republic. >> there you have it. joining us to discuss is annie linsky, elliott williams, keith battlefield, biden white house xhounications director and doug high, former communications director for the rnc. welcome to all of you. very nice to have you here. elliott, the biggest difference is that trump has wanted people loyal

for his entire life, this is not a new thing but there is a difference from the 2017 administration and now where the people who surround him are unquestionably loyal to him. he did a fascinating intervow with david ruben stein and it was presidential history and he kept asking him what was your biggest mistake last time and trump kept saying i put the wrong people in there. there were a lot of people who held up his impulses because they thought loyalty to something else. that will not be the case this time. you worked inside doj and the other agencies. what does this mean? >> it remeans to be seen. the president the first time around had a number of competent people who shared his vision in government but they didn't last. his secretary of state, his chief of staff simply did not make it from doing their jobs. let's use the example

today of marco rubio who is someone by any metric is spectacularly qualified to be secretary of state, having served on the senate intelligence xhoet and senate foreign relations committee but interesting to see how that plays out, if the excessive loyalty wins over or the places where he has deviated from the president over the years, immigration being the big one. because it involves the secretary of state. >> you mentioned immigration being the big one but you may remember they ran against each other in 2016. let's take a walk down memory lane, watch it. >> have you seen his hands, they are like this. and you know what they say about men with small hands you can't trust them.

>> look at those hands, are they small? he said if they are small, something else must be small and i guarantee there is no problem. and i said marco, those hands can hit a golf ball 285 yards. i want to show the size of my hands, how i could grab him, how i could grab him. >> so we didn't hear him say little marco but that was the nickname. >> that's the thing. i feel that trump wants recent loyalty. you look at rubio but also jd vance who he picked for vice president was no paradigm of loyalty just a decade ago. so trump does seem to show a significant ability for forgiveness for disloyalty. and the other thing about rubio is he also broke with trump on a key thing which was the 2020 election. he did vote to

certify pennsylvania, arizona. that was another area and he used the rationale for doing that, breaking with trump, was how the country looked to foreign governments. so i think rubio has shown independence even if he is a bear campaigning for the president. >> how do you come back from this kind of thing with trump if you are marco rubio? how is he in the inner circle? >> how did kamala harris come back for joe biden after she knifed him in the presidential debate? we saw the clips of criticizing being loyalty to donald trump but a lot of this is very normal. i would get calls every week during the campaign from michael whatley. every article would say, michael whatley, a trump loyalist. never did i see jamie harrison, a biden loyalist. of course you are loyal to your because boss. if you are in a

political crisis and you are loyal, you are rewarded for that. bill clinton still talks about those loyal to him during impeachment. are you at risk of a button being pushed and the floor falling out, yes but it is normal. >> but what is the difference of rubio and pompeo? >> the difference is with donald trump he doesn't give points. he only takes them away one at a time. mike pompeo lost his points. nikki haley who tried to get on the campaign trail, trump very shrewdly never allowed her to. even though if he had, he may have increased the margin a little. >> he is right. i like to normalize trump broadly because a lot of what he does is dangerous and takes our public discourse to a low and cheap and gross place. but doug is

right, it is true. there is an element of loyalty that is baked into how presidents think about who they staff up a. the difference with trump is he is often asking loyalists to do things that are wildly, or at least what we saw in 2020 that are wildly outside of the bounds of the constitution. it is a little different to say you know, jamie harrison is working to put money in the campaign where kamala harris wants it versus donald trump is asking senators to not certify the election and fulfill their constitutional duties. it is absolutely true that loyalty is a component of politics. but the question, the fear, the challenge comes when the president is asking these people to do things that run counter to the constitution. >> if kamala harris would have won, we would not see a series of flips of people backing

harris and now getting cabinet appoint tments. you would say this is business as usual. donald trump asks people that morally they don't want to do and they find a way to get there. that had ramifications from january 6th. but when you win a campaign, your team comes with you. that is true of a presidential race. >> i think hitting the nail on the head, when the loyalties collide, what are the people asked to do by their boss and what are they expected to the in the situations. okay, straight ahead on cnn, this plays directly into the conversation we are having. it could be donald trump's most important cabinet pick, how the doj is bracing for selections. and the border czar delivers a warning to democratic governors planning to stand in the way of mass deportations. and senator rick scott tries to ride the maga momentum in his bid for senate majority

leader. will it be enough for an endorsement from trump himself? >> i'm optimistic. i think i will win. here's what i bring to the table. i clorely believe in the trump agenda.

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they have edemeaned us, they have demonized, and censored us and deplatformed us and weaponized the power of our own government against us. they have gone after their political opponent, me. it's unbelievable. i call it

coordinating with the injustice department. i thought it would look terrible to take hillary clinton, we could have locked her up, she did so many bad things but wouldn't that be terrible? >> as donald trump fills out cabinet picks for a second term, who he wants to lead the justice department could be among if not the most consequential choice he makes. the department and special counsel jack smith opened two prosecutions against hymnod the biden administration. trump has vowed to end the cases as soon as he takes office. >> the day after you take the oath of office or maybe the day you take the oath of office, you will have topardon yourself or fire jack smith. which will you do? >> it is so easy, i will fire him within two seconds. >> current justice department employees are bracing for possible political retribution in a second term, something trump and his allies have talked about on the campaign trail. using the doj to go after opponents is something he

sought from his attorneys general going back to bill barr in his first term in office. >> unless bill barr indicts these people for crimes, the greatest political crimes in the history of the country we will get the satisfaction unless i win because i won't forget it. these people should be indicted. this is the greatest crime in the history of our country. this inclouds biden and obama. these are people who spied on my campaign. >> so elliott williams, there are people inside the justice department who are worried about political retribution to the point that the attorney mark zad is recommending that people take a vacation. just watch this. >> we are talking about people who have been specifically called out by the former president of the united states. we are not rushing to it. i'm not saying sell your home, move

overseas, never come back, become an expat. i'm telling certain clients, a small number, take your vacation for inauguration. and let's see what happens in the days or week or two after. >> remarkable, what would you say? >> i think the converse is better. it is a nonpartisan, noncareer class of employees that will save government. it is in fact not a great idea to resign and step down and start taking vacations because you are afraid of an incoming president. a message that is lost in all of this, and frankly, i served in both democratic and republican administrations, and there is a shift in policy from administration to administration and that is a good thing. you don't want government doing the same thing. >> it is the voters. >> when you start talking about

targeting individual retribution against opponents and so on and firing employees simply because they disagree with you, that's where you get a dangerous place for government. >> what are the real differences among the candidates that trump is said to be considering? are there choices that seem materially stronger enyour view in terms of the rule of law versus others? >> it is hard to say what is a serious choice . you hear about mike davis, the conservative provocateur who would not make it through senate confirmation. the ideal candidate has at least served in the justice department in some capacity and recognizes that even in a government agency where not everyone will agree with you, you can still have a vision and a mission and carry it out. and i really do believe the important role here is for the career attorneys, not the mid level political managers or

anything like that. it is the people who were here yesterday, will be here today and will be here tomorrow regardless of who is president. >> this is also reality tv. this is the donald trump we are talking about. as we have the names coming out, the one that everyone is looking at the hardest is the attorney general. wouldn't surprise me if trump keeps this going on, tune in next week, and the ag is the one we find out about last. >> there is a question as we look at the political landscape, what does he want to prioritize? yes, he will have a majority in the senate and likely have the house. he was given a huge mandate in the election, no question. donald trump has the opportunity to look at the landscape here and say here are two or three things i want to prioritize coming out of the gate. is that going to be like trying to go after career folks at the justice department or will he spend political capital on some of the promises he made on immigration or the economy? i don't know the answer to that

but he has people around him who are politically shrewd and making decisions. we have to overlay the broader political landscape on this too. >> i would also say, the last, biden and also trump in his first term were both investigated to some extent by their own dojs. if you want to look at a litmus test, you can be safe to assume that trump will want a head of department of justice who will not appoint a special counsel. and i wonder if joe biden wishes that merrick garland had not allow a special counsel to go forward who searched his home. i think that you can expect that to be a flat out litmus test. >> fair enough. coming up, racking up endorsements, rick scott getting support from trump allies to lead the upper chamber, why the president-elect is still

holding out. and what do aoc and donald trump have in common? apparently instagram has the answer.

at this hour, the united states is book ended by wildfires. in california, wind advisories in place for parts of ventura and santa barbara counties, raising fears that the mountain fire will keep spreading. >> this is like surreal. i know we live in a fire danger area but it came out of nowhere. it was so fast. >> hundreds of structures in the area. agricultural officials estimate hundreds of thousands of damage. the jennings creek fire is raging in parts of new jersey and new

york. and lee is joining us live from there. >> reporter: good morning. the high winds we are experiencing with the historic drought is making this diffrlt. law enforcement vehicles are blocking an area where there is a wildfire burning. on the other side of the road, we saw a few trees sparking this morning. there is not mandatory evacuations in place but officials are telling some residents here, it's time to go. >> this was not on fire a half hour ago. >> reporter: thousands of acres near the new york and new jersey border have been burned by the jennings creek fire since it sparked last week. >> we are asking to voluntarily evacuate. >> reporter: historic drought conditions are fuelling the file, aided in part by wind and air. the new jersey forest fire service says the rugged terrain is a challenge for the

response. >> it is hard to get equipment in there because some of the areas are too steep for bull dozers. >> reporter: they are attacking the fire from the ground and sky, working to contain it and keep it from threatening homes and other structures in the area. some who live there are being encouraged to leave. >> police knocked on our door an hour or two ago and said if you want to get a bag ready and if you have somewhere to go, maybe you should go. >> reporter: one firefighter was treated for smoke inhalation over the weekend. and 18-year-old darryel vasquez died over the weekend while working as a new york ranger. his family described him as a true hero, someone who put others before himself. >> that was leigh waldman reporting in new jersey, thank you. ahead on cnn, three republicans vying for the top job in the senate, how trump

may be hesitant to back the one backed by elon musk. and the head of epa pick is making environmentalists nervous. >> day one and first 100 days, we have the opportunity to roll back regulations that are forcing businesses to be able to struggle.

rick scott, i was there at the beginning for rick. he's doing a good job. it's not easy. i will tell you. and he is doing a hell of a job. >> that was trump in 2011, praising senator rick scott, one of the three running to replace mitch mcconnell as senate majority leader. the relationship precedes their time in politics but trump has yet to publicly endorse anyone for the role even as scott has the support of many allies. one nagging question has held trump back from endorsing the senator publicly. can rick win? winning is one of the most important things for trump but loyalty is not far behind nor is revenge for perceived adversaries. scott checks the last two boxes with bright red exes. >> i want the donald trump agenda implemented. i want the nominees confirmed as quickly

as we can get them confirmed. >> i believe i will win because i represent what the trump team wants and what the american public wants. i am all on board. >> joining us now is national political reporter mark caputo. that was your reporting there about rick scott. i have to say, look, i have covered the hill for a long time. typically this kind of outside pressure is not received terribly warmly by senators who like to do their own thing and don't like to be told what to do. and quite candidly, rick scott is not terribly well leaked by a lot of colleagues. what else are you hearing? >> that is about right. when you campaign, govern, act in a senatorial capacity as an anti-establishment outsider, the insiders don't like you. that is the biggest problem that rick scott has on a personal basis and then more broadly to your point, senators don't like being told what to

do. as one person told me, they all think they are a little president. and there is a little resistance to having donald trump be their boss in everything and calling all of the shots. they probably want a little bit of independence. it is a secret ballot. so that makes it difficult for trump to single out senators and put pressure on them to vote a certain way. >> we saw what rick scott is saying now about where he stands, what he would do. i think tounderscore why trump world seems to like him right now as opposed to john corner and john thun, we can look back at what they had to say during the republican primary campaign in 2023. watch this. >> you have to appeal to a broader segment of the population in a general election. and president trump seems to have loyal support in the primary but not so much in

a general election. i think people in this country are ready for generational change. and i think change in tone in politics. there is an exhaustion factor with the american people and always a lot of drama around the former president. >> so i think we can of course say sitting here today that both of those assessments were wrong. but it may bow part of why the trump team is nervous about these two. >> yeah, they don't like that they are not maga. it is a big republican tent and there are a number of people of different walks of life in it. rick scott is one of them. he has been with trump almost since day one. he had a no endorsement policy or used to have one in a republican primary. when he was governor in 2016, he basically broke it by issuing a

nonendorsement endorsement of trump in january in an op-ed. he made it clear he was on trump's side and he has been by his side the entire time. so what they want in magaville, in trump world, is someone who will sign off on trump's agenda. these two other guys, if their prior words mean anything, are not fully sold on it. it is kind of striking that these two senators this late in the game had underestimated donald trump. the reality is, those who are truly with him thought he would win all along. maybe they were just being hopeful but turns out they were right. in their view, turns out they were wrong and they hope to expact that. but as of right now, it doesn't look like the numbers are there for rick scott. >> we will find out tomorrow. we enjoy your reporting. thank

you for being here. >> thanks. let's turn now to this. the normer new york congressman lee zeldin is president trump's pick to head the epa. his task is to be overturning several biden administrations like tail pipe regulations for vehicles and pollution guidelines for power plants and oil and gas producers. >> so day one and the first 100 days, we have the opportunity to roll back regulations that are forcing businesses to be able to struggle. >> at the climate summit this week, there has been growing concern that trump will again pull america out of the paris climate agreements after hearing this rhetoric on the campaign trail. >> i will end kamala's war on pennsylvania energy and we will frack, frack, frack, and drill baby drill. i will cut all of

your energy prices, gasoline, air conditioning, heating, everything. >> our panel is back now. doug, lee zel din for epa, what is the big difference he could make? i'm thinking of the ev regulations that the biden administration put in place that caused no small amount of consternation. >> all of that aside, what was our previous conversation? loyalty. lee zeldin has been a big trump backer from day one. people like that will be rewarded. we will have tolook at what is his real environmental background. doesn't seem to be a deep history there other than any member of congress has voted on every issue under the sun. but this comes back to he is a trump backer, there you go. >> there is a strong sense among people in the republican party that regulating the environment is about business. the goal was to put someone in

who is pro business, not an environmental background. and anybody would have been. and i think if you fundamentally disagree with the mission of the agency and as the next president seems to sort of have a contempt for government, you can put anyone in, it is just a management role. i don't say that dismissively. but he has said as much as long as he is a good business man. >> he is also someone who came within a couple of points of winning a governor's race in new york, blue, blue, new york. so this is not someone who is really truly from the maga wing of the party. so i found that to be interesting. and just going back to new york, this is the second new yorker that trump, a new yorker is putting in his cabinet which i found to be a common background. >> florida and new york are the two for donald trump. zeldin is a former congressman but a lot of the challenges donald trump has is a lot of people he is

picking are coming from the house of representatives. that could create problems as republicans will have a majority but a slim one. if we have vacancies, various tight votecould be problematic. >> okay. still ahead, the immigration crackdown and the key positions he is naming for the second term. how they may carry out promises of mass deportations. at first glance alexandria ocasio-cortez could not be more different but they align more than you think in the minds of some voters. >> they are both disrupters. there is a massive appetite in our country to disrupt a political system that increasing numbers of americans are increasingly disgusted by.

who's going to stand up and say the cartels are gone, the criminal markets are gone, the gangs are gone, america is for americans and americans only? >> that's stephen miller, the man expected to be donald trump's choice for deputy chief of staff for policy in the new administration. he has long been a hawk on restricting immigration dating back to his time in the first trump administration. in his new role, miller will carry out trump's calls for mass deportations starting on day one. >> when will the deportations begin? >> as president trump said, they begin on inauguration day. as soon as he takes the oath of office. >> along with miller, trump also announcing on truth social that tom homan will join the administration as the border czar. the president elect also noting that homan will be in charge of all deportations of

illegal aliens back to the country of origin. he is warning democrat governors of standing in the way of the plan in a second trump term. >> i hear governors say they will stand in the way and make it hard for us. well, a suggestion, it is not going to help. get out of the way. we are going to do it. sanctuary cities are sanctuaries for criminals. get out of the way. >> elliott, you worked with that man shown there. what can you tell us about how this will play out? >> i don't know how it will play out and here's why. you can talk a big game about removing a million people from the country but we should talk through what that means. the four years i was working with tom at i.c.e. every day, we were removing about 400,000 a year which is unprecedented. >> was that with the obama administration? >> it was the obama administration. if you were to get to a million people like

you are talking about, very quickly, you get from guys in cartel to granny when you are talking about that number. there are simply not the volume of the dangerous folks. so number one as a practical matter, etc. not going tohappen. and number two, money, staffing, resources, bed space in jails and facilities do not exist. so somehow between now and inauguration day, you will have to spend literally tens of millions to construct new space, hire new people and bring bodies on. >> they can't do that. they have to wait until inauguration day. >> that is what i'm saying. it is a fiction that any of that can happen in the time we are talking about. i want to be clear. i said this earlier on the show. it is important to recognize that there will be a shift from administration to administration, including on the border, including on removals and deportations that yes, you get a new president, and they have a different vision and that's okay. they

are sort of using these bully talking points that aren't actually able to be put into practice. >> and also to step back for a minute, donald trump won the election on two issues, immigration and inflation. the president can't do that much on inflation but he he can on immigration. so it will make sense that he will focus on the area that he has control over. >> and we are seeing some democratic governors and that's what he was focusing on saying we are going to stand in the way of the plans. is that the right message? >> i don't think so. i have to imagine what the trump administration will do, they will come out of the gate in the first week on day one with a number of executive orders that will have a lot of muscular language. the reality of the cost and logistics of doing truly mass deportation, they will run up against a wall here. no question, they will message on this aggressively

coming out of the gate. and no, i think for democratic governors to knee jerk take a position of we are going to fight this is not smart. i think democratic governors need to be responsive to what people said on tuesday. that does not mean they need to embrace mass deportation and separation of families. but the democrats put forward a border bill that any democratic governor would be smart to embrace. i understand because of the most callus and hateful language that the stephen millers of the world use, i understand that democratic governors feel this on a moral level that it is their obligation to oppose this. but having a knee jerk reaction that we will be seen as the people who are standing in the way of taking more aggressive steps on immigration is not the place to be. >> she is right to bring up the executive orders. if we look back on the executive orders,

he would sign language and regardless of what the language said, he would say look what i just did. so he signs executive orders on specific issues around the border and he holds up pictures. we just removed this thug, this drug dealer, this murderer. as he does that, the american public are saying it's a good thing that that person is gone. it will be a brilliant tactical move by trump. >> let's turn to this story. in last week's election, some new yorkers voted for two people who on the surface seem to have nothing in common. socialist bernie sanders, aoc, all of these people, liberal lawmakers are pushing a government takeover. >> we know that donald trump would sell this country for a dollar if it meant lining his own pockets. >> some voters in new york's 14th district splitting their

tickets, voting for congresswoman alexandria ocasio-cortez and for donald trump. curious how she outperformed harris by a significant margin. she took to instagram yesterday to ask her constituents why. >> if you voted for donald trump and me or if you voted for donald trump and voted democratic down ballot, i would really love to hear from you. i actually want to learn from you. >> fascinating. the answer she received was you and trump are for the working class. and quote, i feel you and trump are both real. you signify change. trump signifies change. >> fascinating and smart of her to do this, smart use of her connection that show has with

voters via social media. yeah, this common thread in the answers about how she and trump are real, is very telling. people feel like most politicians are talking pointed to death. they are fake. they are not real. and she and trump can espous wildly different policies but they are real people saying what they think. that authenticity is really powerful. >> it is priceless. >> in 2012, we realized going through the election result, 8% of the voters voted for barack obama. and we thought who in the hell are these voters? this is smart of her to figure this out. she may have opportunities to work with the administration and bolster her credentials. >> and donald trump, i'm not sure if this is a game recognizing game moment or what. but this is what donald

trump had to say about aoc over the summer. >> she's got a thing going. it's a good thing, a good thing for her. it is a certain something she's got. she's got a spark that is pretty amazing actually. i give her credit. she's got a lot of sizzle. >> spark, sizzle. >> i'm not going to touch that, talking spark and sizzle. but it is an authenticity that people see. we talked on the show on froid about queens in particular. i think people see these urban areas as monoliths but queens is working class, most diverse county in the united states. >> she has parts of the bronx too. >> it does not surprise me in the least that on economic issues at least and some other political messaging it's going

to resonate across parties. people take that for granted, seeing black and brown new york and thinking it is a democratic stronghold. >> she also did something that both parties say they do but i have never seen it before and that is listen. she is genuinely asking, i'm confused, this is surprising i'm not going to pretend that i know the answer, i will listen to you. i hear so many politicians say they do a listening tour and what happens is they do a lot of talking. she is listening. >> listening to more supporters. >> yeah, she is saying earnestly, i want to know the answer. that is rare in politics. i don't see a lot of it. >> that is a wonderful point. i have covered listening tours and you are completely correct. >> she is also asking people to tell her why she was great, right? she is not going on and

saying tell me why you didn't vote for me. >> it is a beautiful vendiagram. >> it is super smart and great but let's be clear here. >> but i think my question here is we have focused so much on how the distinction here is class based. and the republican party has moved in a working class direction. i'm not trying to dispute that but this suggests that it is changeable. the place that show has to go on that may also be -- democrats could take up that space. >> sure. >> i'm curious what message this sends on the cultural stuff in the democratic party. >> i think she is clearly saying, tell me if there is a different path here. i think it is clear that democrats have lost the thread on the cultural piece. i think a lot of what

people associate with the democratic party on the cultural field feels out of touch with their daily lives. the other smart thing she is doing is saying how can i learn from this, how can the democratic party learn from this. i think there is absolutely space for democrats to reclaim some of that. i think the democratic agenda and building blocks on policy are all designed to help working people and middle class people. it is clear that the party has to have a reckoning on where they are in the culture wars because they lost touch with a lot of it country. >> well, i don't want to lose the kicker as we sometimes call it. we as a country could use more moments of coming together. i will leave you with this. the legendary musical duo mending a fractured relationship. ♪ within p the

sound of silence ♪. >> the silence has been broken between paul simon and art gar funkal. they patched things up over lunch a few weeks back. gar funkal saying he was a fool for his role in their estrangement. ♪ like a bridge over troubled water ♪ >> simon and garfunkal had a falling out after the release of the smash hit "bridge over troubled water." they reunited briefly over the years but it never stuck. ♪ and we walked off to look for america ♪ >> art garfunkal's son says now the family is in a wonderful place and he is not ru