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well, tonight donald trump gets an early start on his second term and fires the opening salvos on two of his big priorities immigration and trade. >> plus, walmart enters the culture wars or maybe exit stage left and rolls back its diversity, equity and inclusion programs as it mark a shift in corporate america and top harris campaign staffers speak out for the very first time since the election without kamala harris, i might add. what they're saying went so wrong, and how democrats can try to fix it. tonight on laura coates live all right, we've still got wet like 53 days until inauguration day but who's counting? that's not stopping donald trump, though, from getting quite the head start on his very top priorities. and with it,

warnings to those who may try to stand in his way. take immigration, for example. his incoming border czar, tom homan taking a trip to the texas border today with governor greg abbott this was his message let me be clear. >> there is going to be a mass deportation because we just finished a massive illegal immigration crisis on the border. it's a felony to knowingly harbor and conceal an illegal immigration authorities don't tell us that last part about it being a felony to harbor immigrants here illegally. >> well, that was meant for people like perhaps the denver mayor, mike johnson. he has vowed to resist trump's mass deportation plans, saying this more than us having the denver police department stationed at the county line to keep them out, you would have 50,000 denver right's there. it's like the tiananmen square moment with the rose and the gun. perhaps not analogous, but homan has threatened to throw

mayor johnson in jail if he tries to step in. and tonight, mayor johnson, while he's responding right here on cnn if they want to focus on violent criminals we would be happy to help support pursuing, arresting and deporting them if they are going to send the u.s. army or the navy seals into denver to pursue folks, to pull them off the job at hotels or restaurants where they're working, or pull kids off the soccer field, i think we will see denverites and folks around the country who will nonviolently resist that. now, to be clear, the mayor backtracked from his original suggestion about sending in cops. he is now just talking about citizens nonviolently nonviolently resisting he's also making a distinction between criminals and people who are here illegally, but are contributing to society. now this looming shutdown over deportations, well, it all comes as trump puts another ball in the air with a similar goal his day one promise for tariffs on mexico and canada. and china. they're all part of

his plan to crack down on illegal immigration and fentanyl coming into the united states. but you know, already mexico says that they may retaliate. a transition official says the tariff threat is a negotiating tactic. but if it backfires, if it backfires and they don't budge, well, then perhaps your pocketbook could take quite a hit. everything from sneakers to avocados to cars that could cost a whole hell of a lot more. joining me now, former obama white house senior director neera huck, former director of press communications for the trump 2020 campaign, erin perrine, and senior political correspondent for pac tara palmieri. good to have all of you ladies here. i'll begin with you, erin. look, the denver mayor says that he's going to cooperate with deporting criminals, but using strong arm tactics, strong arm tactics, and to to raid work places and round up migrants and kids will be met with resistance. how will this all go down? >> i think he's being a bit hyperbolic when he's talking about children being pulled off of soccer fields and people out

of restaurants and their jobs as of this point, the trump administration has been clear their plan is to go after those who have already had their process adjudicated in the united states and have been ordered to be deported at this point, those people should be forced out of the united states because they've had their process done. those who have violent felonies or violent convictions here in the united states, i think everybody can agree those are people. if they're here illegally in the united states, they've broken the laws or they've been adjudicated through our process can be put out. anything beyond that would involve congressional oversight and legislation in order to be able to figure out how you would be able to to more fully deport those who would be here illegally in the united states. so take it piece by piece. and also, to be very clear that mayor was way over his skis on this. we can all take a deep breath. we've lived through a trump administration before we don't need to fear monger to people to try and make the point. you can say you believe in allowing those who contribute to your society and your city to stay there, but you don't need to threaten

people that grandmothers and children are going to be taken from their families. >> right now, people have lived through a trump administration. some are holding their breath because they believe he will keep his word, that they'll be certain rounds of deportations, which will start with those who have had adjudication and criminality but then what's next? a four year presidency? >> well, one of the challenges remaining from trump one was the child separation policy, of which the border czar was one of the people responsible for the creation of it. and we still have 900 children who were forcibly separated from their parents, who are lost in the federal system right now, who will not be reunited with their families. that's a reality of having policies that are big and bold, but have not been thought through for implementation. i will say this trump to given the team in place. there's been a lot of thought about the implementation, even beyond what we talk about with project 2025. and part of that with stephen miller and what he's talked about is the gathering of people and detaining them prior to deportation. that's going to be a very very expensive proposition but it's going to benefit the private prison complex industry, right?

they're going to be doing that in texas. so people do benefit from this. 40% of our agricultural workforce are undocumented folks. these are jobs that american citizens have not wanted for years. farmers are constantly asking members of congress to make the quotas higher, give us more visas for seasonal workers. that has not been done. so congress is not part of the equation right now, but you're going to suddenly lose a significant part of the workforce for things that americans don't want to pay more money for. >> but with all due respect, of that 40%, how many of those fall within the violent criminal portion? right? like, we're not saying that 40% of the like of the workforce in the agriculture community is going to be taken out of the united states. this again, like we need to that is a nuance. >> but i think that's a nuance that you are giving that trump has not. >> let me bring in tara to this conversation because democratic congresswoman jasmine crockett saying, if homan is going to wield such enormous power that he should have to go through senate confirmation remember, as the borders are, he need not

do so with that title. listen to what she had to say the job of that particular role is not to incarcerate people. >> if this man wants to be the one that is going to enforce our laws, then maybe we should look for him to be the attorney general of the united states. i do think that if they are trying to employ him with the type of power that he believes that he's going to have, then he should absolutely be confirmed by the senate. >> there's a history of the so-called czars not having to go through that confirmation process. we're not talking about kristi noem by the way, for dhs. we're talking about homan. is that by design i'm sure it is. >> and it's very unlikely that they would ever put anyone through a confirmation process that they didn't have to. i mean, donald trump is already talking about recess appointments and was considering pushing matt gaetz through that when he picked him as attorney general just to get back to the prior point as well. there was a point during the first administration when they did try to come up with a mass deportation bill. barr

wrote about it in his book, and they were stopped because of covid. so they really did try to execute this. and i think the one thing about donald trump we should know is that we should take him at his word that he will try to do what he wants to do. i mean, day one, they did enact a muslim ban that completely stopped airport traffic. people couldn't move. i mean, there are people stranded in airports because they didn't have any. they hadn't actually planned it. and, you know, child separation. i don't think we can just assume that everything is going to go smoothly and that this this time around, it's going to be different. um, but what about what about, um, sorry, aaron's point tara, i don't want to cut you off. >> what about tara? i mean aaron's earlier point, though, about the idea of forethought being hyperbolic. i know i'm paraphrasing you, but the idea of going down the line and thinking about non criminals as a part of being this mass deportation are people jumping the gun i don't think that they're thinking that i think

when it comes down to it, if it's going to be a mass deportation, a show of force, there are going to be people that get caught up in this in this, and there will be families that are broken up. >> i don't i think it's impossible, especially if these people are undocumented. it's really difficult to prove he might just be caught up in the system in detention, trying to prove that they don't have no criminal record um, it's it's just a huge process. and, and bill barr wrote about it. he was like this is impossible. we tried to do it. and then covid actually stopped them from from going ahead with it. but we'll see if they are able to execute it. but i don't think for a second that it won't be messy. >> well aaron, let me go to the other major issue that we've heard from trump about this week alone. i mean obviously more than 50 days away from the inauguration, but he's talking about tariffs. and this is something that he has been talking about. frankly for more than a decade, actually. and these tariff threats against mexico, against canada and china, some say it's a negotiation tactic that they're just trying to see what kind of leverage he will have when he does take office. trump has hyped this up though. does he

have to go through with it now? if they don't budge, if they don't look at this as an invitation to negotiate one, it looks like they are taking this as an invitation to negotiate. >> you saw justin trudeau come out today and say that he had a very good call with president trump. so you're seeing that these countries are already starting to make moves, and mexico is starting to engage. they might be engaging a bit more adversarially than i think donald trump would like, but they're entering the conversation. so at this point he is using that as a negotiation tactic. but if i was a foreign nation anywhere talking to donald trump, i wouldn't think that he's going to blink and back down on a fight, especially when it comes to something as critical to his to his total campaign this time as the tariffs were. >> let's talk about what mexico has responded as well mayor, on this, because the president of mexico saying that neither threats nor tariffs will solve the issue of migration or drug consumption. and she went on to say that it could trigger a trade war. could these tariffs backfire?

>> yes, because it will put the idea of immigration and that being a huge policy that trump campaigned on right up against american prices and what we're paying not only at the gas pump, but what we're paying for inflation and groceries, the reality is that tariffs are paid for by the companies that are bringing the goods in, and they pass that on to the american consumer. the last round of tariffs, you saw about $100 in price increases in appliances that a 25% tariff is. so significant for the fact that 80% of our goods are coming in through those two borders. it's going i mean, it's a real squeeze on these two countries, but it's connecting something that they don't fully have control over, which is the immigration crisis, with something that typically, you know, you argue economics with trade and you keep that all in one bucket. so this will be revolutionary globally if trump pursues this. >> we'll see if he does. tara, let me bring you into this, because this might be surprising to people given the pacing of the cabinet picks that we're talking about, the

identification of who would be in these very important positions you've got some reporting on what's going on in the transition process, even more chaotic, you say, than last time. what have you learned yeah. >> i mean you would think that it was deliberate because it's happening so quickly. but in fact, there was just as much infighting just as much, you know lobbying and and at one point, i'm sure you saw this in the washington post, that it actually got physical between howard lutnick, who ended up with the commerce chair, and boris epshteyn, who was investigated by the trump team for trying to charge for access and for recommendations to appointments. um, but you know, back in 2016, you know, it was fights between the establishment and the and the anti-globalist under bannon and against reince priebus. but now you've got people like elon musk outwardly tweeting out his recommendations for, um, you know, for treasury secretary, saying that scott bessent who ended up being chosen would be

business as usual. and trump obviously didn't take this. and you've got don jr. out there and they're managing they're using the grassroots to try to make arguments for their players. and it's just so much more overt. whereas i felt like when i was covering trump in 2016, you saw more of this play out in the press through background quotes, but now you're just seeing full on, um you know, lobbying fights, all these type a personalities and the same type of silos and infighting and it's it's just part of the trump game and he likes it personally. he likes a type a, type a personality in washington d.c., in politics this is striking. >> thank you so much everyone i appreciate it. >> happy thanksgiving. >> happy thanksgiving next. another big company pulling back from diversity equity and inclusion. otherwise known as dei. well this time it's walmart. but what do the workers really think about dei harry enten is here to run the

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started, by the way, after the murder of george floyd in 2020. monitor and removing any sexual or transgender products marketed towards children. reviewing funding for pride events and end racial equity staff training instead. walmart says it will focus on making sure employees and customers feel a sense of belonging. conservative activists have pressured it and other companies to pull the plug on diversity programs and according to axios mentions of dei on corporate earnings calls fell from more than 300 in 20 21 to 74 at the start of this year. and that was before trump won the election joining me now, cnn's senior data reporter harry enten. so good to see you, my friend. let me ask you how do employees feel about dei in the workplace? what are you finding? >> yeah, what are we finding? well we're kind of finding a slim majority who think that focusing on dei at work is a

good thing. now, this is workers at companies with at least ten plus employees. look at where we are right now. in late 2024. it's 52%. now, what i should note is there has been some decrease in this number from where we were in early 2023, when it was 56%. so the way i would sort of describe these numbers, laura, is if before back in early 2023, it was a clear majority. now we're kind of teetering on a plurality here, but certainly not the vast opposition you might expect, given how some on the right feel about dei. >> i mean companies, they also have to focus on the court of public opinion, as you well know, people, you know, they vote, they say day to day with their wallets and pocketbooks. how do people feel about companies taking even a stand on the issue? >> now this is where it gets very interesting because here we have a real time trend. so let's take a look at it. all right. businesses dei public stance important to know back in 2021. so we can go all the way back then right just after

the summer of george floyd which of course was back in 2020. how important did folks think it was to know the dei stances of businesses? it was 68%. it was 68%. look at where we are now in 2024. a real decrease just 53% of americans want to know a business's dei stance so what we've seen here is back. you know, right after the summer of george floyd there was a lot of interest in dei, a lot of interest in folks knowing businesses stances towards dei. now considerably less so in 2024. this is a drop of 15 points. that's a considerable drop. you know, i like looking at poll questions. you oftentimes don't see this type of drop unless there's a real change in public opinion. >> that's striking those numbers. i remember 2021 very well. and how important it was to people in the community and frankly, voters overall, i mean, it's become this issue of dei and concept, a political lightning rod, especially among conservatives. harry, how do republicans and democrats view it?

>> yeah, this is what is driving this decline. it's republicans. okay. important to want to know a business's dei stance. you go back to 2021. look, there was a partisan divide between democrats and republicans democrats coming in at 86%, republicans coming in at 50%, democrats have basically stayed pretty steady on this issue, right. in 2024 at 79%. a slight drop, but not so far off from that 86%. look at republicans. look at this drop off in this number, 50%. back in 2021. said it was important to know a business's stance on dei now it's just 22%. that is a drop of more than half of more than half from 2021 to 2024. and that, of course is mirroring what we're seeing, mirroring what we're seeing from politicians, from republicans, folks like donald trump. the bottom line is the republican base on dei three years ago, kind of lukewarm now in vast opposition to it. they don't want to hear anything from businesses on dei. and i think that's why you're seeing a lot of businesses differentiating themselves out,

saying, you know what? we're taking a step back. >> and now with the republican trifecta, i wonder how that might continue to change over time. harry enten these numbers speak volumes. so good to see you. happy thanksgiving week, my friend. >> you as well laura well, here to debate the merits of di celeste headlee, award winning journalist author, and president and ceo of the racial justice nonprofit headway. >> and colman hughes, cnn political analyst, contributor at the free press and host of the conversations with coleman podcast. good to have you both on, celeste. listen, you've advised corporations on diversity initiatives and walmart made most of these proclamations after the death of george floyd. now we've listed the ways in which they've rolled it back. did they go too far in the past? >> no. >> there isn't a lot of corporations that that made long, frankly, long overdue efforts to try to bring equity, which is just another word for

fairness to the workplace and diversity, which is just another word for bringing in the best talent that you can get and making sure you don't have an echo chamber and they started rolling them back before it even became a real political football to a certain extent. so, you know there hasn't always been an american corporate investment in the type of changes that need to happen in order to bring about equity and, and justice. so it didn't surprise me at all that they began to roll him back. but did they go too far? no. >> coleman did they give it a fair shot or was this as far as they were prepared to go based on the pressure they were having already to do away with it? >> the pressure to do away with it is coming from a totally understandable and justified place. corporations spend $8 billion a year on so-called diversity trainings and to give one example, coca-cola had a so-called diversity expert come in and tell employees to try to be less white, whatever. exactly that means. these

diversity trainings have become a way of injecting really divisive and frankly racist rhetoric into the workplace and that's where the backlash is coming from. people are sick of it. they're right to be sick of it. if dei were just as benign as as celeste were describing, very few people would have a problem with it. very few people would have a problem with simply acknowledging that we've got to cast a wider net when we're when we're looking for executives in the c-suite and look in places, you know, don't just call your best friends and do more to, you know include historically disadvantaged groups but it's become much more toxic than that. >> celeste, what's your reaction? >> yeah, that's it's become much more toxic because it's a talking point in politics. um it's true that a lot of the traditional dei training actually doesn't work. i think coleman and i could agree on this here. and in fact, there's often a backlash. but we have there's evidence based training that helps people to become to help help them to learn, to embrace all kinds of

differences. you know, there's not just racial differences. there's lgbtq plus differences. there's disability difference. there's neurodiversity, there's age, there's weight, there's a lot of differences. and the best evidence based training is just helping people learn how to respect one another and work well in collaboration, regardless of what those differences are. that's the basis of belonging and the only reason we talk about belonging inclusion is because belonging is so important to our species so, you know, this isn't this has become toxic because of the way that politicians talk about it. but the the essence of dei initiatives is just getting people to bring in a diversity of opinions, which is how human beings work best together and learn how to work well with one another. >> coleman, what's your reaction to that? do you think that speaking of what's the toxicity of the political talking point, has political rhetoric contributed to a misunderstanding of the difference between the core reason and the implementation i think the story is exactly

backwards. >> there um, politics is reacting to a genuine phenomenon that's been going on for years. the reason dei became toxic is because it went from a very early kind of more benign softer version after 2020, the worst and most racist ideologues became the most popular dei proponents, for instance robin d'angelo, coca-cola got the try to be less white thing from her. she was not some marginal figure. she was a bestselling author whose book white fragility was on the new york times bestsellers list for like, half of a year. okay, so those were the most popular people they brought in and popularized their brand of dei, which is toxic and divisive. and that's what people are. that's where the backlash comes from. >> but coleman, on this point, i mean, you've mentioned coca cola twice in this instance, obviously that's but one anecdote among many fortune 500, 100 companies and beyond. and broader. what do you say to the concept though, to celeste's point about the idea of inclusivity across a broader

spectrum? is that idea in and of itself counterproductive to the economy? >> no. inclusivity is a good thing. i don't think that employees need to be lectured to the tune of $8 billion a year to to be nice to each other. i think that can be done in a much more streamlined way in a way that doesn't make doesn't, frankly, condescend to people and in a way that keeps any toxic racial divisive ideology completely out of it celeste, is there a way to eliminate any toxicity or racism from the universe? >> no. and to say that robin d'angelo is one of the worst racial ideologues when we have white supremacists marching in, in ohio and people repeating nazi language in our politics, i think it's a little rare. >> but they're not. they're not being hired to give diversity seminars. >> so i'm going to be finished. what i'm saying not all diversity seminars are that way. you're picking out

something that you disagree with, which is fine, but you're making a generalization based on one example. i mean the point of any dei initiative is to bring diversity into a company, which is great for the bottom line. the companies that rank the lowest for dei, for diversity in their ranks underperform other companies by a staggering 30%. so this is good economics. it is good business. and to to fight it when this is where the younger generations are going. seems to me to be pretty wrongheaded. >> so, coleman, is your point. i know we have to go, but is is part of your argument that the manner in which it's implemented is problematic? but the concept, a good idea? >> i think there's nothing wrong with a corporation having a policy about inclusivity um, but the ideas themselves can't be divisive. the idea can't be to shame people, to make people feel guilty. the idea just has to be quite simply, in this workplace, we talk to each other with respect. and here's what that means here's some examples of people crossing the

line. that's it. that's all it has to be. just like any other workplace diligence, um, thing that you would do when you're onboarding new employees. it doesn't have to be this kind of struggle session that it became after 2020, where you're trying to make your white employees feel like, you know they're racist. essentially, that's that's the crux of it. that's what people don't like to us. >> is that we have to go. i keep saying this. i'm curious, is my understanding. that is what coleman is describing is, in fact what the goal of most diversity training is about, not about trying to shame. it's about trying to enlighten. but you've studied this far more than i have. >> yeah. look, let's the hard truth here is that every single human being is biased. every one of us is biased. so if it makes you feel bad to hear me say that, i apologize. but that's the truth. we all have biases we haven't elected a president under six feet since the 19th century. there are

many biases that that that we all are prey to and they they determine whether someone has success in their career or they don't. not just for people of color, but for women, for people with disabilities. and it should be in all of our best interest to make sure it's a fair playing field, that it's equitable. but even more, the business case is so strong, the fact that 30% of gen z identifies as lgbtq plus this is you know, fighting against the east wind. you know this is where society is going. that's a healthy place. and businesses would be wise to embrace it. >> you know, i'd like to hear you all converse further. let's have a break and talk privately. celeste headlee coleman hughes, thank you both so much for joining. i appreciate it. up next, the harris team breaking its silence on what they think went wrong and answers one of the most commonly asked questions. why didn't harris publicly split from joe biden when she felt like she was part of the administration? >> so why should she look back and pick out cherry, pick some things that she would have done

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when you spend $35. head to your neighborhood grocery outlet today because this offer is available only while supplies last. ten and two boss. start your will at trust and wilcom and make it count well, democrats are still grappling with their election loss and tonight the team that ran the harris campaign is speaking out for the first time. >> and they are peeling back the curtains on the challenges they faced and what they say went wrong. principal deputy campaign manager quentin fulks suggesting that democrats could take a page from how republicans embraced trump despite his controversies republicans don't make trump apologize and as stephanie said, we don't have to mimic it. >> but i think that there are a lot of times where if you're in the democratic party and you step out of line, yeah, you get punished for it. trump is putting these republicans in the worst possible political or what would seem to be, and they

support it because at the end of the day, they understand that it weakens trump and, you know this may sound like a shot across the bow, but it should be. democrats are eating our own to a very high degree and until that stops, we're not going to be able to address a lot of the things that just need to be said i want to bring in 2004 presidential candidate and former chairman of the democratic national committee, howard dean. >> good to see you. i have to ask you, howard. i mean harris's advisers say there was a price to be had for the short campaign. i mean, it was only 107 days, and they couldn't effectively distinguish her from biden in that amount of time are they deflecting blame to joe biden to the dnc? is there more to it? >> you know, this is all hocus pocus. the truth is, this has been going on for 20 years. we need to have a grassroots organization. and the republicans have done this. we need to have somebody running for every legislative seat in the country, no matter how red the state, every city council

race every school board race. and we don't. and you can't expect every four years to come in and put up this billion dollar edifice, and then you're going to ramp somebody through. we did great with clinton and obama because they were exceptional people for for very different reasons but you, kamala. i thought kamala ran a decent campaign. i think she would have been a terrific president. you can't expect to elect a a human being to this office unless you're willing to do the grassroots work. and i see no evidence that the democrats have been willing to do the grass grassroots work since i left the dnc in 2008. >> well, why do you think that is? is it because they don't believe that that is the vehicle for success? or is it that there's not the ground operation to do that? >> you have to understand washington is basically middle school on steroids they work hard. they're very smart and it's all about them all the time so most and the d and the ds cc do very well electing their their members. but in order to elect democrats in red states, they have to think

beyond the name democrat. and the only way to do that is to knock on the doors. and i do not mean four months or four weeks before the election. i mean running for congress. i mean, excuse me running for the state legislature, running for the city council get familiar with people we don't support that very well in the democratic party we have some mechanisms, but they're rarely funded and they're not funded until the presidential campaign. this is not an every four year effort. this is a full four year effort all the time. if you want to do it right. and as i say, it hasn't really been done right since 2008. and even then we didn't give enough money to the parties to do this. >> the state parties, interestingly enough, i mean, some of the criticism is also i think this actually buttresses the point you're making that harris's team has acknowledged that republicans have a quote well invested echo chamber, giving them an edge ahead of democrats in particular. listen to this there is a cultural dynamic that's at play in politics today where it is

converging like we've never seen, and we're losing the culture war and we're losing the culture war and whatever it is, woke whatever word you want to use. >> i'm not you know, i leave that to anybody to define and whatever value. but we are not aligned on where we can be within that so joe rogan's podcast might be a very good example of the kind of echo chamber, and that quentin fulks is talking about. >> i mean, the campaign acknowledged that they missed out on that, saying that it was a scheduling issue, and trump was actually taping with rogan on the day that harris was in town. the one day she was in town. it's one thing to acknowledge they're losing the culture war, but is there a solution? >> yeah, the culture, the culture. it's not we're not losing the culture war. we're losing the message. there's no trump. look, the republicans basically, most of them run campaigns based on two things hate and anger and that's what the that's what picking on trans people is. that's all it is. trans people have nothing to do with anybody's taxes or inflation or how much eggs cost

it's a way of singling out there's a you know, every you know, hitler did this. it's those people's fault. this is exactly what trump was doing so we're not this this party is not about that. we're about the future. they're about the past. and so we can't stoop to that stuff. i don't think we need to lead with trans rights, but i don't think you can give up people's rights. where would the democrats be if lyndon johnson hadn't come along and decided martin luther king was right? and and as a southern democrat, rammed the civil rights bill through the the very nervous congress. so that's what democrats are. we're about the future. the republicans are just about getting control any way that you can. so there's a culture war to be had. we may not want to fight it on the grounds. we just fought it and let them set the agenda. but we have to stand for something. and what we have to stand for is the future. >> you know it sounds like that old phrase, it's the economy, stupid. that was the the most important driving factor for voters. i see you nodding. you

certainly must agree. but the way you framed it, if the democrats are about the future and republicans are about the past, then why did viewers and voters focus so much on the present? who were they going for then? >> well i mean, what i believe is that they convinced well first of all, they're the trump people who are sort of cult figures, right? so that was his base, but it was effective enough so that trump could whip all the people who had what little conscience was left in the republican party. there are some republicans who have a conscience. they just don't have a backbone um, so that that was that was problem number one. problem number two is we don't operate like that and i never want to operate like that. this is a democracy. and everybody's supposed to have their say. so you know, we can't have a strong leader who everybody goes, yes sir to. that's not the way a democracy works. and that's not not the way the democratic party works. and i don't want to see that i do want to see us talking to people every day for four years, not talking to people every day for four months.

>> that's a huge critique of politicians. more broadly that you come around when it's time to get my vote, and i don't see you for four more years, but who's going to run the democratic party? i mean, the race to lead the party has begun. you've got martin o'malley and ken martin have thrown their hat into the ring. rahm emanuel, mitch landrieu and ben wikler are also considering who do you think should be at the helm of the dnc next? >> somebody who understands grassroots politics and is willing to invest in it? i haven't chosen a candidate, but i want somebody who is from outside washington who understands grassroots politics and is willing and understands that it's a four year proposal, not a four month proposal. >> what do you believe vice president kamala harris's future will be in the party um, well, i don't know. >> it's obviously up to her. i think she'd be a great governor of california and of course, i'm incredibly biased towards what governors can get done for their constituencies. so and that's the biggest state in the country. so i hope she runs for governor of california but how

about president again well, let's see how i mean this is up to her. that's a hard race. she knows it's a hard race. she's been through it. i'm not going to handicap what she should or shouldn't do in that case, but i would love to see her in a leadership position. and i think the governorship is a lot more fun than senatorship. >> well, i'll be curious about those vegas odds. ultimately howard dean, thank you so much. >> thank you well, tonight steve bannon is suggesting more people to more people that trump should go after once he takes office, who will be on that list. >> and will trump, in fact do that and can history tell us anything about the moment we find ourselves in now? someone who knows a thing or two about a presidential enemies list, former nixon white house counsel john dean is my guest. next bubikopf later. >> chest congestion. hello. >> 12 hours of relief. 12 hours. not coughing. >> hashtag still not coughing mucinex dm gives you 12 hours of relief from chest congestion

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stewing stewing over his enemies list or me working for you, checking off my to do list how many times did we hear that from vice president harris on the campaign trail? >> well, now that trump one will soon find out if she was right about that so-called enemies list. what we do know for sure is that trump has picked an attorney general who has said that the prosecutors who went after trump will be prosecuted themselves, but would pam bondi actually carry that out? and would anyone tell trump not to have her do it? well, here's the new york times's maggie haberman fielding that very question if the idea is that there's lots of people around trump in the white house who are going to try to prevent him from doing this, i think people are sorely mistaken. now, the idea of a president having an enemies list, well frankly, it's not new, is it? richard nixon had one. we know this because my

next guest revealed it's very existence the conversation then moved to the press coverage of the watergate incident and how the press was really trying to make this into a major campaign issue. >> at one point in the conversation, i recall the president telling me to keep a good list of the press people giving us trouble because we'll make life difficult for them. after the election that was former nixon white house counsel john dean in 1973, testifying to congress in the wake of watergate. >> john joins me now. he is also a cnn contributor. john this is interesting times. we find ourselves in. you say that nixon never actually acted upon that list, but people are wondering if trump will carry out any sort of retribution. what do you think i don't know. >> that's a good question. he certainly did campaign on the issue, made it clear he was the retribution candidate. the revenge candidate, and that if

people wanted to see somebody take action, he was their man. uh, it's very hard to use the machinery of government against individuals and perceived enemies. there's going to be a lot of resistance. there was public resistance when i revealed before the senate watergate committee that nixon had a list, a list that had been narrowed down by some other staffers to 20 some individuals. they wanted to focus on. there were hundreds of names that were gathered and collected, and over the years laura, i've learned that everybody whose name came up on that list was absolutely proud to be there. the reason nothing happened to them is those names never went beyond my desk drawer in the white house, and they just stopped there. >> well, do you think that there is a john dean in the incoming administration where that list would stop? >> i hope so. you know, it is. it is an abuse of power to use the government to attack a

perceived enemy that nothing good can come from it. it is not why taxpayers pay their taxes to see their president out using the power of the government. uh, there was one instance where i remember one of my superiors gave me a list of 500 names. he wanted me to give to the treasury department to start irs audits. i was confident in giving it and following orders that nothing would happen though i knew that secretary of treasury schultz would kill it. but that's the only active time i know. and apparently that came from another aide. the president was talking directly to about collecting names. >> well, there are people who, as you said, may consider it a kind of badge of honor to have done the work to earn their right to be on the enemies list. but i suspect there are a lot of people who are very worried, very worried that trump or his team may target them and there won't be the kind of guardrails to undermine

that pursuit. what is your message to those who are afraid well, i think vigilance is certainly called for. >> i know so many people in the kind of work you and i do who've checked their liability policies, policies recently to make sure they're all up to date. uh, in case some spurious action is taken against them. it's very easy to file a suit against them, particularly if the government were to do that, that would be a total distortion as you know, laura, of the department of justice. i'm thinking it more likely that some pacs or something like that political action committees could start that kind of litigation in the president's behalf, but it's going to get ugly. if that's where they go, it will be very it'll be very public it will be very unseemly and let's hope it doesn't go there. >> well, as you know special counsel jack smith just officially closed down the

federal cases against trump some critics are pointing the finger at attorney general merrick garland for being too slow to actually have a special counsel until, i think, two years following january sixth. do you fault him well, we don't know all the evidence. >> we don't know what judge garland really had in mind. what we know he was trying to depoliticize the department of justice, which is going to become very political in the coming months. and years. uh so i'd like to hear his side of the story before i cast judgment. i was frankly surprised that he didn't take action sooner. at the higher level. they did in the u.s. attorney's office. as you recall. start action immediately against some of the most egregious people they they have prosecuted literally 500. some people for their involvement in the attack on the capitol. but uh, obviously mr. trump's delay strategy

worked perfectly. and he appears to have escaped everything but history. >> well, we'll see how history views him. and that phrase of being above the law. john dean, thank you so much for joining happy thanksgiving same to you laura. >> thank you. >> and hey thank all of you for watching anderson cooper 360 is next resolve. your pet knows if a mess is really gone. >> if not, they may mark the spot. resolve gets rid of pet messes better than the leading competitor destroying stains neutralizing odors, and preventing remarking. love the love resolve the mess lie to everyone. >> risk your life on a daily basis. >> no glamor, no exploding watch the cia sends us out into the world to behave in entirely unhealthy dangerous ways

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