jackpot party a party in every spin. >> i'm elizabeth wagmeister in los angeles and this is cnn.

>> hello everyone, and welcome to the amanpour hour. here's where we're headed this week as the assad family dictatorship meets its end in syria, the global fallout, this is definitely a big blow for for russia. eu foreign policy chief kaja kallas on europe's view and how trump 2.0 will react. former pentagon official elbridge colby weighs in. then jomana karadsheh at the birthplace of the anti-assad movement that was brutally repressed. >> this was for our children and for us, tells me it's so they don't have to live under the tyrants rule. >> also, from my archives, a 2017 exclusive with the syrian defector who exposed assad's brutal dungeons and. as israeli prime minister benjamin netanyahu takes the stand in his corruption trial, the film

banned inside israel with interrogation footage revealing the lengths he'll go to stay in power. welcome to the program, everyone. i'm christiane amanpour in london, in a region already beset by chaos and failed leadership. the stunning fall this time last weekend of syria's assad regime brings with it a new era of hope and uncertainty. the reality of life after that brutal half century of family dictatorship is still sinking in. people are jubilant and they're also heartbroken as atrocities rise to the surface. meanwhile, on the diplomatic level, russia and iran are trying to downplay the severity of this blow to them, even as the u.s. and israel take advantage of this moment to bombard targets inside syria from europe to the united states and beyond, leaders are trying to game out what just happened on the

geopolitical chessboard. my first guest is the eu foreign policy chief, kaja kallas, formerly the prime minister of estonia, a nato member that borders russia. i asked her how this would affect the kremlin's war on ukraine and how europe will deal with trump. 2.0. high representative, thank you very much. how do you think the eu is going to respond and interact with this new syrian government or transitional body? as you know, the leader of the rebel group that actually did liberate syria has been called a terrorist organization by the united states and others. um, how do you think this is going to resolve? and is the eu looking to have, you know, to start relations again with syria? well, over the weekend? >> we have been in close contact with the regional actors. and i think, you know, for the international actors as well as the regional actors,

what is important is that there is stability in the country, that there is no revenge, no retaliation, no violence against the minorities. and there are many we know also the religious freedom has to be respected and all this. so right now it is all very fresh. of course, the the new leadership has to be judged by their deeds. and, and this will, you know, coming days and weeks will show the russians, like the iranians, are bending over backwards to try to portray what happened in syria as anything but a major blow for a major investment that they made backing assad and president trump elect. >> others have said, actually, this shows that russia is weak, that its adventure in ukraine and the terrible war has drained it of its ability to fight two wars at once. and and who knows what might happen. so what do you think this loss in

syria will mean for putin in terms of i don't know what he does next in ukraine? >> well, this is definitely a big blow for for russia. it shows that, you know, iran and russia have been weakened and distracted by by different wars. so they can't help their old friends, assad for that matter. so so i think what it shows is that, you know, they are not that strong as as everybody portrays russia to be. so we shouldn't i mean, europe and the western world shouldn't underestimate our own power. and overestimate russia's power. we clearly see the weakness on their side. so so we need to get our act together. >> how then? because do you think that european countries are united in continuing to fund ukraine? what happens when president trump is in office because he's you know, he's sort of maybe, maybe not in terms of probably not supporting ukraine as much, he

said in a recent interview. >> well, first of all, aiding ukraine is not, you know, some kind of, uh, aid. it's support to ukraine's defense. that also means investment to our own defense and security. and that also applies to united states. we are in this world that is very interconnected. what happens in europe also has consequences for for united states. and and i mean, looking into the history isolationism has never played out very well. also for for the united states. and it's also in their interest if they're looking towards china to be very strong on on russia, what we have to do for this, we have to keep the unity, we have to support ukraine with military aid as well as the financial aid, so that they are able to win this war. and then on the other side, we also have to increase our pressure via sanctions. we have to increase the pressure

on the, you know, the political isolation of russia, which is, of course not easy. but at the same time, we know that it's also not easy to keep up the war machine for for russia. so so if we concentrate our efforts, then we are able to, to bring this war to an end so that, you know, the peace is also sustainable and and, you know, lasts. >> so you've sent a few messages and i and i guess you'll have to deal with part of the fallout if trump does make good on his pledge to impose tariffs on europe and everybody expects, even angela merkel told me, that she's sure that the idea of europe's having to pay more into their nato commitment, in other words, more gdp into their defense. she's sure that's going to come up again already? i don't know, i think it may be your successor in estonia said we should start the bar now at 2.5%. do you think do you think that this is what

you're going to be? i mean, you know this. you've been through this as europeans over the last trump administration. are you prepared to deal with these these issues now? >> well, what trump has said is that, you know, you europeans have to invest more in defense. and i think now everybody also gets this. it is true that we need to boost our defense spending. and many countries have already done that. and i think in general, europe has has stepped up in in the defense spending. is it enough? well, i don't think it's enough. we all need to do more. and there i mean everybody agrees with with also the messages from from the president elect trump that europe needs to do more for the defense. and, and i think, you know, people have gotten this message and are acting in accordance with this. >> coming up next, the trump perspective with former pentagon official elbridge

colby. also ahead, cnn's jomana karadsheh in syria, in the town where the uprising against assad began back in 2011. >> i want to be the greatest player that i could possibly become ali corey copd is an ugly reality. >> i watch as his world just keeps getting smaller. but then trelegy helped us see things a little differently. with three medicines in one, inhaler trilogy keeps airways open for a full 24 hours and prevents future flare ups. once daily. trelegy also improves lung function so he can breathe more freely all day and night. >> trelegy won't replace a rescue inhaler for sudden breathing problems. tell your doctor if you have a heart

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meanwhile, when it comes to ukraine, he's ramping up pressure on nato allies, demanding they, quote, pay their bills and take more responsibility for their own defense. it's all very familiar, as you'll hear from elbridge colby, a pentagon official. under trump's first term and who's been floated for a key role in his next administration. so i don't know how much of kaja kallas that you heard, but she certainly, at the end of our interview, said that, yes, we have to do more on our defense. she didn't directly address the tariffs issue. but does that suggest that the trump europe relationship would be smoother from the get go? do you think? >> well, yeah, i did i did hear it. and let me stress i don't speak for for president elect trump or his transition team or incoming administration, but i think there are some encouraging things that the high representative said. but i think the last part has remained rhetorical. you know, she kind of gestured at that, but the results are far more

meager than i think. americans have a right to expect. and frankly, europeans do, with the exceptions of some countries like poland. you know, i noted the the high representative's comments about punitive isolationism. i think let me put this to our european friends. and again, i don't speak for the president elect, but i think this represents the kind of mindset that you see in america. i think we don't need lectures. i think we need real action by europeans. europeans know what they need to do. they need to not just spend more on defense, but deliver more combat capability for nato. and that's what president trump has clearly said. and and take a much greater lead, including in military aid for ukraine. and as the high representative acknowledged there, that has not really happened. germany, for instance, has cut below the level that the bundeswehr was acting, asking for its cut aid to ukraine. france has cut aid to ukraine. the uk is also in a parlous situation. so i think, look, we can talk about all of

this stuff till the cows come home, but the right course for europe is really to step up, maybe move away from some of these green initiatives, move away from some of this overregulation on industry, build back up its own defense industry capability, move back towards conscription. i don't know. those are decisions for europe. you know, liberalize the ability of europe to issue bonds for greater defense spending. to me, those are all things that europe should put on the table. but right now we see a lot of rhetoric and relatively little action. >> elbridge colby, you wouldn't be lecturing europe now, would you well, i think look, i don't speak for anybody else, but the american people have been spending well over 3.5% of gdp for a long time, and the europeans have had a really good ride, certainly since the end of the cold war and even during the cold war is disproportionate. >> so i don't think this is lecturing. i think this is, as president trump rightly puts it, it's a dose of common sense. and here's the thing, christiane, i talk to europeans all the time. they know what they need to do. how does it make sense for germans to have spent between 1 and 2% of gdp on defense for decades, and

americans to have spent a lot more? how does it make sense for the country that the current secretary general of nato ran for, for a very wealthy country, to have spent well below 2%? this is not equitable, and it doesn't make sense for europe and our military. biden is leaving an overstretched. our weapons stockpiles are depleted, and we have a bigger challenge in china, not to mention protecting our own homeland. >> let me ask you about syria. president trump, president elect trump said as this as everything was sort of going down over the weekend, he said, syria is a mess. it's not our friend. and the united states should not have should have nothing to do with it. this is not our fight. let it play out. do not get involved. so look. okay, fine. but. so what do you think that actually means? when we peel that apart? for instance, the several hundred u.s. forces that are based there purely to fight and to make sure that isis doesn't raise its head again. and as you know, president biden ordered b-52s, you know, fighter jets, et cetera., to bombard isis positions as the

assad regime was crumbling. >> well, first of all, let me say that i completely agree with president trump about the need to avoid getting enmeshed in another quagmire in the middle east. and i think mike waltz put it very well on ex. just saying. this is what president trump was elected on, not to get us into another middle east war. so that's very important. it sounds kind of common sense, but common sense has been exceptionally uncommon over the last generation. and we've managed to fritter away our enormous military advantages and the support of the american people, especially those who have served in uniform, as i think pete hegseth has really spoken for them in a very eloquent way, as well as j.d. vance and others, really eroded the willingness of the american people for these kinds of conflicts. and so i think basically saying, hey, we're not going to get involved here is a really important starting point. that's the baseline i always like to point out. i mean, christiane, during the cold war, syria was basically always in the soviet sphere. and yet we won the cold war. it's not something that is strategically vital for us, and we really have to husband our resources on the issue of what u.s.

forces in syria is going to happen. i mean, i certainly supported president trump when he was attempting to pull them out last time. i think we're going to have to see that's his decision. i think there's a sort of bizarro element to our posture in the middle east, where we're bombing multiple groups and possibly supporting, according to reporting, multiple groups on varying sides. i think the better course here is to, as president trump said, to stay out of it directly, to empower and back our allies like israel that are taking matters more into their own hands and some kind of equilibrium will, will hopefully arise. and then, of course, keeping a weather eye on the possibility for a transnational jihadis to emerge from that. that's really a core, of course, american interests coming out of that area. >> i just want to know why the most powerful country in the world likes to portray itself as a victim that can never get anything right. i mean, you've just been telling me that because we're reform, you know, america's always reforming itself, right? >> we're saying we self-criticize, you know, and then we're going to we're going to we're going to address our problems and we're going to come come back ahead.

i mean, that to me is the is the the power of democracy that president trump is demonstrating. >> we will follow up with you, elbridge kobani, thank you so much for being on our program again after the break, jubilation and sorrow while syria rejoices in its freedom from assad's brutal regime, we hear from one woman who's mourning the family she lost they say things take time and effort, but it's worth the wait. >> i can tell some stories. i'm so excited i don't believe twitter brought the world together and the world was not ready to see itself. >> you read the comments? yeah, i might recommend that. you don't. yeah, that's how i get by. >> we never backed away. he never stepped down. oh, that's how i get back. >> i feel at home here lord, that's how i get by. >> this is not a drill. subway dropped the price on all their subs. 20% off any sub, any

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>> welcome back. it's been one week of freedom for syria, as many welcome in a new age, free from assad's brutal regime. others, though, are mourning the loved ones they have lost to assad's gulags. on the outskirts of damascus, the city of daraya lies in rubble. it was the birthplace of syria's anti-regime arab spring movement that simply called for reforms back in 2011. but in response, assad sent the full force of his military against ordinary civilians there. even children, sparking the long civil war and eventually sealing his own fate. cnn's jomana karadsheh revisited the city, talking to one woman whose loved ones disappeared into syria's notorious prison system. >> what's left of daraya tells of the horrors that unfolded here every corner scarred by a ruthless regime's fight survival. this damascus suburb rose up peacefully, demanding

freedom. more than a decade on, a shattered dera'a and its people are finally free this was for our children, firoz tells me. it's so they don't have to live under the tyrant's rule. her story of loss and pain so unfathomable for us, yet so common in this place that for years endured some of the most brutal tactics of the assad regime besieged, starved and bombed into surrender. anjali rao says. they came out asking for freedom and they were met with bullets and tanks, she says. we're not terrorists. and they did this. and imagine, she says, there were women and children living in these homes. so many men like her husband mazen, detained and disappeared. two years later, a released prisoner told her he saw him in jail. they beat him so much his wounded leg was infected. he was in so much pain, she says. there was no medical care in prison and

because of all he was going through, he lost his mind. the prisoner last saw him taken away, crying and screaming hysterically. she went from one detention center to the next, searching for him until they broke the news to her. in the most cruel of ways. they handed her his belongings and told her to register his death. there are no words to describe how i was feeling when i left, she says. i was holding on to the hope he would be released and our family would be reunited. they didn't even give me his body this is the last photo she has of mazen and his youngest boy. ghaith doesn't remember his dad, nor was six and so attached to his father. every day he would wait by the door for him to come back when i would hear someone calling baba dad, it was torment for me, firas says. what did these children do to be deprived of their father?

she has to be strong for her boys. she says she is all they have. her father also disappeared into the black holes of assad's jails, like her husband. their only crime, she says, was being from dera'a. she says i'm just one of thousands and thousands of stories, and that's just in darayya. and just imagine how many more there are across syria with the end of this dark chapter in their history, a new life and new syria emerges from the rubble of their broken lives. jomana karadsheh, cnn daraya syria. >> up next, as people like her try to look to a future, we look back at my interview with a defector who smuggled shocking evidence of war crimes out of syria. >> this holiday season, find the perfect gift at cnn, underscored from the latest fashion to expert approved tech

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from the united states. they are actively looking for a new syrian leader. they are granting visas and visits to syrian opposition politicians. they're talking about isolating you diplomatically and perhaps a coup d'état or your regime crumbling. what are you thinking about that i feel very confident for one reason. >> because i was made in syria. i wasn't made in the united states. so i'm not worried. this is syrian decision should be should be made by the syrian people. nobody else in this world. >> well, after 19 years in a terrible civil war, the syrian people have decided and as they look to their future, we take a look back at my archive and one brave syrian who worked to expose that brutal regime between 2011 and 2013, a former military photographer known as caesar smuggled shocking evidence of war crimes out of syria. he had been ordered to

photograph tortured, starved and burnt bodies inside jails, but at great risk to himself. he made copies 50,000 of them in 2014. we on this program, along with the guardian newspaper, broke this news and broadcast the terrible evidence to the whole world. three years later, i spoke to the still anonymous photographer in his first tv interview, after he had testified before congress and the un about the torture he had captured with his camera. and this clip contains some of caesar's graphic images. caesar, can you tell me what your job was and why you decided to publicize to smuggle out these pictures? >> i used to work inside the military police with a group of other photographers that have different specialties. our job before the revolution, we took pictures of accidents. if somebody was killed, if there was a suicide, if there was someone who drowned, or if

there was a fire. part of our work in the forensic evidence section is to go into document these accidents and to work with the judges and the detectives from the military police. but after the beginning of the revolution, after 2011, my work changed in a very full fundamental way. we were no longer taking pictures of accidents or suicides or a drowning. all of our work for me and for my team, was to take pictures of martyrs, of prisoners that were detained in the assad jails. >> when did you realize that your job had changed and were there many, many more bodies that you were photographing on a regular basis than before the revolution? >> there were small numbers at first. at the beginning of the revolution, we would take in a day 10 to 20 people. sometimes 5 to 10 bodies that we would

get daily. but as the revolution went on, at the beginning of 2012, for example, the number started going up in a very marked way. we started taking photos of 20, then 30, until it came to a point where we were taking like 50 or more bodies every day by 2013, for example, caesar, we are seeing really horrible pictures. >> we have them projected on our wall here. these are the pictures that you smuggled out. what were the causes of death that you were recording? >> most of the bodies that we were taking photos of were of people that, by the way, were peaceful people. these are some of the people that just took part of the revolution, of the protests in damascus and in daraa, calling for freedom. there was signs of sometimes them being shot. and you can see many wounds in their heads, in their bodies, in their arms.

we began to take photographs of bodies that had all these signs of all types of torture, of starvation for long periods of time. and there would be a a doctor and there would be a photographer and there would be people from the security forces with us to go body by body. and we would number them based on the number that they were murdered in. >> caesar. did you ever dare ask your superiors what was going on? >> who doesn't live in syria, doesn't understand the situation of how much fear there existed within us. even the pathologist had a high level, a high rank. but he was terrified of the intelligence, the intelligence officers that were with us. it was terrifying. it was not allowed for us to ask any question. >> you were doing this for two years. what impact did it have on you personally, i was horrified. >> i was terrified every day of the job that i was doing. i

would look at the different horrendous ways that these individuals were slaughtered and tortured to death. the only crime they had was that they called for their own dignity and for their own freedom. and then i would, i would, i would picture my own self on the faces of these bodies and worry about my family being in their place. and many times i saw people that i knew personally. but because of the horrendous torture that they happened to them, it was hard for me to recognize them. the types of torture were the worst that i've ever seen. very bloodthirsty. regime. >> this week, one of the new rebel leaders first proclamations was a pledge to hunt down those involved and hold them accountable for all that horror. when we come back, the bibi files, the banned film exposing netanyahu's corruption charges and desperate grip on power. i speak to the filmmakers about making this film and the never

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political survival ahead of national security and the fate of the israeli hostages still being held by hamas this week, netanyahu took the stand in his bribery and corruption trial for the first time since it began back in 2020. he denies all the charges against him and pleaded not guilty. at the same time, the bibi files a new film that's banned from being seen in israel, pulls back the curtain with leaked police interrogations and never before seen footage revealing netanyahu's shocking other side. due to israeli legal restrictions. we can't show that footage either. but filmmakers alex gibney and alexis bloom joined me to unpack their extraordinary film. alex gibney and alexis bloom, welcome to the program. >> thank you. good to be here. >> so, alexis, let me ask you. the trial is underway for the first time since this trial actually began in 2020. netanyahu is in the courtroom,

so to speak. it's pretty good timing for this film yes, it is pretty good timing. >> i mean, we've been saying that for a year. every time you think something's going to happen or that he's going to say something substantive or have to face the charges, it turns out that he sort of, um, sort of shirks them the first day of the court hearing was a little disappointing in that he used it mainly for grandstanding. i would say he was saying that there's an attempted coup against him. the media is out to get him, that the judicial system is biased, and he used it very much to sort of attack what he calls the deep state. >> well, look, you say the deep state, it obviously all sounds very trumpian as well when he talks about the media against him, his domestic enemies against him, and he uses those terms. but here's the thing, alexis and alex, your film cannot be seen at this point

inside israel because of various laws and privacy provisions that prohibit that kind of interrogation footage being shown at this time. alex, how do you think it's going to get to the people who you want to see? >> well, i do think that we wanted the international audience to see it, and they will see it in all of its, um, honesty and and. glory. um, the people in israel will see it, but almost certainly via pirated means. we already know that it's caused a big stir in israel. i mean, one of the things about these interrogation videos that i think needs to be clear is that you sort of see netanyahu not exactly in an unguarded moment. he's very much aware of the camera, but it's a very vulnerable moment or a series of moments. and then you see, um, sarah, his wife and his son yair show this kind of unbelievable contempt for the

rule of law and the state, which is, i think, for israelis, really shocking to see. and in the leaks that have happened outside of, you know, official channels, they're they're getting a look at it and it's and it's causing quite a stir from an international perspective, i think, you know, for years and years and years, we've been fed in part because, you know, netanyahu controls his image so assiduously, this idea that he is the grand statesman. well, there's a kind of seamy, corrupt, um, petty criminal underbelly to this man, um, which these tapes really show in a way that i think many people will find shocking. >> and of course, we have to say that he denies all the charges against him. having said that, alexis, describe for us since we cannot and on this platform, international viewers will not see the clips. uh, could you tell us describe what alex is talking about? >> well, the interrogations were lengthly, even though he controls when the police come

and they have to come to him to his office, unlike the other interrogations where people go to the police station, but they're lengthly, so some of them are four hours long. and if you look, i always tended to look at the end of the interrogations first when he gets tired and when he gets tired, the mask slips and he gets angry, he gets sweaty, he gets defensive. there's a lot of arm crossing. um, the denials get more repeated. he gets exasperated. so you do see him on the defensive. occasionally he loses his temper and he bangs the table most often when he's played the recordings of other people. so occasionally the police will play a recording where another witness says, you know, this happened. netanyahu asked me to do this. he asked me to approach this person. he asked me to sign this paperwork, and then netanyahu will get angry and say, he's lying. he's lying, or multiple people are lying. they're all lying. and then he he does get quite

enervated. >> i think the other thing that's interesting, there's a very interesting sequence in alexis's film in which, um, a number of people close to netanyahu recall what an extraordinary memory he has for everything. and then you see a series of clips in which he says, over and over and over, i can't remember, i can't recall, don't remember, can't recall. and at which point the police at some point the police just laugh, he said, like, if i was to tell you that light over there which is on is off, that would be a lie. um. but it's so evident that he's lying throughout these interrogations shamelessly, but in ways that are clearly very practiced. >> in this case, i was surprised because it was very petulant. he was he appears, very petulant. i might have done it. i might not have done it. there was a lot of that kind of stuff. and i just wonder, there's a sense of li tie moi. i am the state you are

attacking israel when you so you know, impudently ask me these questions. did you feel that, alexis? >> i felt that very strongly, but not only from the material, from everybody that i spoke to in israel, both on the record and off the record? it was a theme that came up again and again and again, regardless of the political spectrum. you know, the people that i was talking to, some very right wing people would say he he thinks he's king david. um, it came up so often i went into this film not being as critical of netanyahu as i ended up being, just because people i mean, the number of people i can't count who said there should be a term limit in israel. he's in power now. it's coming up to 17 years and many, many people said that interesting and just about sarah netanyahu throughout the

film because there was this hot tape where apparently he had admitted having an affair, et cetera. >> it just it just seems like a very convoluted, i don't know, partnership. i'd say there codependent certainly they are a power couple. >> everybody in israel says they ruled together. she has an enormous amount of power. >> she caught him in an act of infidelity. and ever since then, according to people, alexis spoke to, you know, she's had a very tight hold on him, and i think he's afraid that she'll leave, that she'll leave him. this is very human stuff. but in this case, it it it has a dramatic effect on, on the state. and there's one sort of appalling moment in the film where, um, the families of, of, you know, hostage families, israeli hostage families are sort of brought in to kiss the ring of sarah netanyahu in order to hope that maybe she'll, um, you know,

exert some influence on her husband to try to get them back. it's really. a very disturbing episode. >> and many of those families are clinging to hope that a ceasefire deal may still be in the offing. now, that is just part of my interview on the bibi files. you can watch the rest online. and the film itself is out now in new york and in the uk on the online platform jolt dot film. now after a break, using the camera as her therapist, the young yazidi girl who was kidnaped by isis in 2014 and held captive for almost four years, her quest for healing and justice in a new award winning documentary luther never too much new year's day at eight on cnn, we learned that becket would be born with half of a heart. >> you have all these expectations and they just come crumbling down.

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transformed. >> they know what they want. they don't know where to find it. >> we do. hometown season premiere sunday, december 29th at eight on hgtv. >> closed captioning is brought to you by tableau. watch, pause and record live tv subscription free. >> watch live tv for free with tableau. >> access over 93 channels, plus record, pause and replay, all with zero monthly fees or contracts. order a tableau total system today. >> and finally, a story of survival and resilience. madiha ibrahim al ahmad was ten years old in the summer of 2014, when she was kidnaped by islamic state fighters as they swept through and conquered large parts of iraq and syria. she was separated from her family, sold into sexual and domestic slavery, and held captive for almost four years. madiha was one of 7000 yazidis, an ethnic minority in the region, who were taken like this. now a free woman, she's bravely

sharing her story in a new documentary called simply madiha. through her own camera lens, the film follows her processing her own trauma on a quest for justice and healing. i spoke with both madiha and the film's producer, hassan oswald. here's what they told me about the process of making these intimate video diaries when i first got camera, it made me feel so nice and feeling so better. >> um, because i don't have a therapy, don't have a trust friend and don't have a, like, best friend. um, i will speak in camera and then i, i call the camera. she like a girl, like a like a girl. a friend. um, and then, um, because she was listening to me, she was, uh like, i was telling my feelings.

>> it was important for me to provide the tools for madiha to tell her story, to tell her community's story, rather than just be an outsider who parachutes in. i couldn't have dreamed of of how intuitively she would take to cinematography and just what a incredible storyteller she was. and it ended up being, you know, she filmed 4,050% of the movie. so she she took the reins of the narrative and also the filmmaking from sort of from the start. >> and that unique way of storytelling and filming is already winning awards. madiha is a tribute also to human resilience, to hope and the power of healing through narrative. that's all we have time for. don't forget you can find all of our shows online as podcasts at cnn.com, slash audio and on all other major platforms. i'm christiane amanpour in london. thank you for wahing and see you again next week