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>> wegovy. >> ask your prescriber about wegovy. >> want a next level clean swish with the whoa of listerine? it kills 99.9% of bad breath germs for five times more cleaning power than brushing and flossing alone. get a next level clean with listerine. feel the whoa thank you so much for sharing your afternoon with us on cnn news central. >> i'm boris sanchez alongside brianna keilar in our nation's capital. and this hour we're standing by for a new update from police after a 15 year old girl opened fire at her school in madison, wisconsin, yesterday, killing a teacher and fellow student, as well as injuring several others. it's a tragedy that has shattered the community, as many now

grapple with trying to understand why and how this happened. right now, police are digging through evidence, trying to look for any clues that could reveal what may have led to the shooting. >> the police chief tells cnn that investigators are checking into a possible manifesto linked to the killer, and that they're working with the atf to figure out how she got the gun. cnn's whitney wild is following all of these developments live in madison. and, whitney, as we wait for the police update to get under way, bring us up to speed on what we know so far. >> we know that it was. >> well, law enforcement is identifying the shooter as 15 year old natalie rupnow. they say that she went by samantha. law enforcement is still trying to figure out any details about the motive here and what they have not been able to say yet, and we hope to get an update about here in the next few minutes, is where she got that gun, who was the lawful owner of it and how she obtained it. the big question in this case, especially when you look at past mass shooting cases where parents were eventually charged, the question here is,

is there any possibility that parents in this case would be charged? we've asked that to the chief repeatedly. here's what he said. >> at about 9 p.m. yesterday. that last night. >> well, we will certainly look at all facts and aspects of this case as they were voluntarily giving information that certainly helps to determine, you know, if they were involved or if they were. this was pre-planned. we don't have any evidence that it was. but we also want to look at if the parents may have been negligent. and that's a question that we'll have to answer with our district attorney's office. but at this time, it does not appear to be the case. >> what is true and what is not. >> brianna and boris again, there were two people killed. this was a full time teacher, we're told, as well as a teenage student. the people who were injured include a substitute teacher as well as five students. at this point, we know that two students are in critical condition. two people who were injured have since been released and two people are in stable condition. we're hoping to get many more

updates today, but again, and i'll leave you with this because i think this is one of the most gut wrenching details of this entire case was that it was a second grader who called 911 in a neighboring classroom. boris and brianna really a startling detail. >> whitney wild, thank you so much. again, that press briefing is set to start in about ten 12 minutes or so. let's discuss the case more with retired fbi special agent daniel bruner. he's the president of the bruner sierra group. also with us is adam langford, a criminology professor at the university of alabama. thank you both for being with us. daniel, first to you. what are you hoping to learn from police when they give this update in the next few minutes? >> well, we've had 24 hours to, you know, as the investigators have had 24 hours to really start to gather the evidence. and obviously, we're going to get a little bit more than what was initially determined yesterday. we need to find out where her pathway to violence was. was this pre-planned? were there red flags along the way? we need to

find out if there was negligence. i know the police chief mentioned that it doesn't appear, but if there was negligence upon the part of the the parents of, you know, if if the manifesto that is seen online is hers or if the parents negligently housed the firearm where she was able to get it as an underage, as a 17 year old, was she able to get the firearm, you know, because of negligence at the home. so there were those are going to be some considerations to be looked at. where did she notify her friends or her family members or other associates online that she was going to do this? these are the sorts of things that they're going to be looking at. the electronic evidence, the digital evidence, and taking a look at the entirety of the investigation, not just what brought her here, but also along to see what red flags may have been missed by friends, law enforcement, teachers at the school. they're going to look at the entirety. how did she enter the school? how did she get in access? how was she able to get the weapon in there? those were questions that were somewhat answered

yesterday with the metal detector. so these are all some questions i think we're going to get today. obviously we're not going to get the entirety of it. but these are important press conferences to give us little bits of the of the case investigation going on. >> and adam, how unusual is it that it's a female student? i think it's sort of instinctive for people to assume it's a male. they did that yesterday initially, and many were surprised to learn that it was actually a female. >> absolutely. yeah, it's tremendously uncommon. you know, data sources vary a little bit, but it's somewhere between 2% and 5% of mass shooters or school shooters are female. and, you know, i think basically these types of attacks typically have a constellation of factors that are just more attractive to men and boys in general. you know, it's homicide. it often has a suicidal element, as we saw yesterday. you know, we're talking about firearms, of course, as the weapon. and then the victims in these cases are

often strangers, not someone who's close to the shooter or has a personal kind of conflict with them. and if we look at the data, it's like homicide in the united states, 90% of men suicide, 80% men firearms much more common among men who are interested in violence or self-harm. women and girls tend to be more in favor of of poison, arson, drug overdoses. in the case of suicide, and women tend to strike out with their aggression at people they're close to rather than strangers. so ultimately, there's a lot of different reasons why mass shootings and school shootings are more common to men as a as a form of violence. but of course, this is an exception, and we want to learn more about that. >> given what you just laid out, adam, is it possible that there were red flags or indicators that would have pointed people around this suspect to the possibility of a mass shooting that were missed?

because she's a girl? >> it's a great question. so one of the things and look, the job of threat assessment experts is really difficult because you have so many threats and really not enough resources often to examine each one as closely as you want to. so, you know, when they're kind of doing this triage, they're trying to decide which are the top priority cases. you certainly might look at a simple thing like gender and say, okay, if we have two cases that are similar, let's look at the one that's a young man first and prioritize that. before we look at the other one. um, but, you know, on the other hand, like that can be a big trap, right? so, you know, i guess what i would say is we really need to get a good sense of what the details were, um, like, credible threat matters. you know, if it was a it was if it was a four year old. right. if it was a 95 year old man. um, those are things i would say less credible is a threat. but of course, um, you know, the the sad state of things is we live in a society where, um,

there's a large number of people who can commit these attacks if they're interested to do so. so if this is something she had the motive for and expressed that, um, then it's really important to treat it seriously. >> and daniel, police say they're looking into a possible manifesto. what else are investigators going through to try to learn more about the shooter? and what can that yield for them? >> well, there's going to be a tremendous amount of information that the fbi particularly are going to be getting from this because the the investigation not only is to figure out got on her pathway to violence, but is to also understand why she became the shooter, why she became, why she did what she did. the fbi will analyze this data and try to implement it into future trainings. for those in the in the mental health region, in the arena, to help assist in future cases and to look at exactly as you mentioned now,

about maybe not so much prioritizing men or young men over the women, but just to look at it as a general indication that this individual may be on a pathway to violence and that we could intercede with mental health professionals or law enforcement if the individual is already gathering all their weapons and preparing for an attack. numerous attacks have been interceded because family members or friends have been able to notify law enforcement, and they've been able to intercede before an attack has happened. it's becoming more common and becoming that it's okay to inform law enforcement. but i think that all of this from the investigation as a criminalr, will also be applied towards understanding why she went on this pathway to violence. >> yeah, those don't always get all the attention, but it's so important to remember the difference that people reporting what they see can make. adam langford, daniel brunner, thank you so much. stay with us, if you will. we're about to get an update here from officials in madison, wisconsin, on this shooting. we're going to bring that to

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after he allegedly murdered unitedhealthcare ceo brian thompson on a manhattan sidewalk earlier this month. the 26 year old has an extradition hearing on thursday in pennsylvania, where he was ultimately arrested. the manhattan da says there are indications that mangione megan liu may no longer fight the process of being extradited and transferred to new york. we will, of course, bring you his remarks, live in our next hour. in the meantime, those outraged by their health insurers have further embraced mangione, with some calling him a hero for allegedly killing the industry executive who left behind a wife and several children. joining us now is elizabeth benjamin. she's with the community service society of new york, a nonprofit that advocates for low and moderate income new yorkers on multiple fronts, including on health care. elizabeth, my apologies to you. we have to go straight to madison, wisconsin, where law enforcement is giving an update on the shooting yesterday at that private christian school. let's listen in to police chief.

>> got the noon, everyone. good afternoon everyone. >> good afternoon. >> thank you for coming. thank you for being here today. we will be providing an additional update as we have moved now into the investigation phase of this tragic incident. i'll be making some prepared remarks and we will not be taking questions. my name is chief shon barnes s h o n b a r n e s. and i'm the chief of police for the madison police department the past 24 hours have been a flurry of emotion, sadness, anger, disappointment grief for the madison community. we were brought together by a tragedy. and today, three families woke up

this morning to a world without a loved one. and that can never be outdone. in the midst of this tragedy, our community has come together in an incredible demonstration of support from madison and indeed the state of wisconsin and our nation. i cannot express enough gratitude to the many emergency response agencies who provided direct support to the madison police department. we could not be standing here today without the men and women of law enforcement specifically, the madison fire department surrounding ems agencies, dane county sheriff's office. monona pd. oregon pd, the university of wisconsin police department, the atf, the fbi, fitchburg police department, and cottage grove. a special

thank you from me to all of these agencies. thank you so much. thank you. these agencies and many others responded to the scene and or took calls for service within the city of madison to allow us to focus on this tragic incident. student reunification with their loved ones could not have happened as swiftly as it did without the assistance of ssm health dean medical clinic, as well as the kwik trip. additionally, many people work well into the night and supported local restaurants and community who came together and provided food and other logistical support for our team. yesterday, we came together as one team, as one madison, as one country, and we should feel incredibly proud about our response. i'll be

providing some updates at this time, but before i do that, i'd like to provide an important clarification yesterday, after looking at the computer aided dispatch system, it seems as if a call came from a second grader. it actually read the call came from a second grade teacher. that was a mistake. that's my responsibility and i apologize. and i clarify that today. it did not come from a second grader. it read second grade teacher. i will also be providing several investigative updates from the 8 p.m. briefing from last night. the madison police department is committed to transparency and will continue to release information that can be used to improve public safety. this must be balanced against our commitment to the victims of this horrific crime

and the need to do a thorough and complete investigation. as a result, i recognize many of you may have questions that i cannot answer at this ask for you to keep the victims right to a thorough ot be taking questions at the conclusion of this press conference, but your pre-submitted questions serve as the basis for updates that we are providing for you this afternoon. if your question is not answered, it is due to an ongoing investigation okay, we know a document has been widely shared on social media at this time. we cannot verify its authenticity. we have detectives working today to determine where this document originated and who actually shared it online. at this time, we cannot verify the document.

we ask that you not share the document or spread any information that may be false. our our department will provide an update on this document when we can there are always signs of a school shooting before it occurred. some of you have reached out about rupnow social media activity prior to yesterday's shooting. we are looking into her online activity. we're asking anyone who knew her or who may have insights into her feelings leading up to yesterday to please contact the madison area crime stoppers. again, anyone who may have known her or knew what she was feeling or going through at that time, please direct those inquiries to madison area crime stoppers. that number is ( 608) 266-6014 or at p3 tips

p3 tips. we will not be releasing specifics about these social media accounts at this time identifying a motive is our top priority, but at this time, it appears that the motive was a combination of factors. again, we cannot share that information at this time because we do not want to jeopardize the investigation. and those who are currently cooperating with us all patient status remain unchanged. the 911 calls are the record of the 911 communications center and their standing operating procedure is not to release documents in open and active investigations again, we are working to authenticate the documents that you see online that some are referring to as a manifesto. and as soon

as we do that, we will let you know. now, the process for doing that is looking at original documents that may have been taken from the suspect's home, looking at information that may be on laptops or on computer to determine if this document originated from our suspect any disciplinary records would be under the purview of the school. some of you have asked whether or not she was troubled, or whether or not she was troubled. at school. we do not have those records. we are not the proprietor of those. on the question of bullying, we're talking to students to understand where their bullying was. one of those multiple factors that i mentioned earlier. some have asked if people were specifically targeted. everyone was targeted in this incident and everyone was put in equal danger. today,

numerous mmsd schools were targeted by false threats, often known as swatting. we're working closely with the madison metropolitan school district to determine where these originated and to investigate this call. we do not believe that there are any current threats to any madison area schools, and will continue to investigate these calls and any threats of violence as they come in. let me be clear on this point. making false threats is a crime, and we are working with the district attorneys to prosecute these crimes. as information is gathered. and if we have to do that, we certainly will. i encourage all parents, all family members to talk to your your, your loved ones about this. we will determine where they originated. we'll use federal partners if we have to, and levy those charges as well. as we continue to investigate what happened yesterday, we are keeping the victims and their

families in the front of our minds. we want to thank the countless people and organizations who have reached out to support them, as well as the dane county victim witness unit and the dane county emergency management, who provided direct support to the families to the abundant life christian academy. this is a hurting and haunting situation and the many survivors will need our continued support, and we pledge to give them that in the days, months and even years ahead. as a community, we must not allow violence or any act of violence to define us. we refuse to allow hate or destruction to win in this city, but rather we will honor our survivors, our victims,

through love support and the madison way. please continue to take care of yourself and take care of each other. at this time, we have several officers who are working today who was working yesterday. they were given the opportunity to stay home on what we commonly refer to as an administrative day. they were offered peer support, emergency assistance program through our city, but those officers chose to come to work today and serve their community. so at the end of my remarks, i'm going to find each and every one of them and personally shake their hand and thanked them on behalf of a grateful city and a grateful administration and a grateful department and profession for their act of selfless public

service. thank you mayor. >> thank you, chief. judge. >> i want to start where the chief ended. which is just asking everyone in this room and within the sound of my voice to take a minute. it's been an incredibly difficult 24 plus hours at this point in time. and we're all human, including each and every one of you in the media who is covering this really tragic event. please remember that you're human and take care of yourselves. we all need to do that. drink water. take a moment. access whatever mental health resources you need. because that's our job. now is to take care of ourselves so we can take care of each other and our community. yesterday, the

madison community experienced a terrible and traumatic event if there's any positive in it, it's that the educators at abundant life, our local law enforcement and first responders, and our community partners were prepared to respond. they acted without hesitation to protect our children, and i'm grateful and humbled by their actions. it's a day that i hoped never would come to our city, but like so many other communities here, we are. we will never be the same, but we will get through this together. i want to ask again that everyone, please respect the

privacy of the victims, their families and those in the abundant life community right now. our full focus is on caring. >> we've been listening to officials in madison, wisconsin, the site of a deadly school shooting yesterday. today, officials clarifying some information as well as offering new details about exactly what transpired in madison. you had chief sean barnes first starting by clarifying a detail that he had passed along that appeared to be incorrect. initially, he said that a call to 911 had come from a second grade student. he said that that was incorrect information that had been put forward. it was actually a second grade teacher that had put out the call to 911. he also stressed that as of right now, officials are still working to verify a manifesto that is alleged to have come from the shooter,

though the chief says that they are still working to verify the authenticity of that document that was shared online. he's asking the media and the public to not share that document until further steps can be taken to directly tie it to the suspect. he also talked about investigators looking into the subject's social media activity. they are asking for people close to her, to this 15 year old shooter to come forward if they have any thoughts, any idea, any reflection about their state of mind in the moments, leading and moments and days leading up to what happened yesterday? he said that identifying a motive is a top priority, but it could be a combination of factors and chief barnes there did not want to get into the details of the working theory that investigators have as of this time. >> yes, of course, people have so many questions about it. let's bring back in retired fbi special agent daniel bruner and criminology professor adam lankford. daniel, we heard from the chief there that identifying a motive is a top

priority. what's clear is that they have some idea here, but they don't want to disclose it because he was saying it appears it's a combination of factors. they don't want to jeopardize. i think it was they said the cooperation that they're getting. so what is your read on that. is that the cooperation of of parents, of students? what do you think? >> well, it's a combination of things. parents, students, her peers. they want to make sure that that people can feel confident to come to law enforcement and that a lot of these information won't be leaked. they a lot of people are nervous to be associated with her, obviously, because of the negative connotation surrounding her, her family and the community. so they want to make sure that they feel confident that information that's provided to the investigators remains confidential. as part of the investigation. there was very little information regarding the details of the investigation, understandably. but what happens typically in the first 24 hours, there's a lot of confusion, obviously.

clearly, the second grade teacher versus the student dialing 911. this is the point where things are going to start to clarify, and the individuals will be identified. the social media aspect, you know, different databases, different platforms will be identified to see where those red flags were, to see where the investigation is conducting. and at this point, they don't want to obviously put out information that turns out to be incorrect because that is a lot worse to put out incorrect information. so they want to make sure that what information is provided by the witnesses, they are able to verify and ensure that the information is correct before they start providing it to the to the media. >> adam, there was a point that chief made that struck me because in similar situations in the past, it's been complicated and it is colored investigations. and he talked about wanting to talk to students to understand if bullying perhaps was a factor in the motive. again, he said it was a combination of factors, and bullying may have

been one of them, but as we've seen in prior cases, specifically with columbine, for example, getting information from students can be tricky because a lot of times stories are conflated, details are mixed up. talk to us about the challenges of trying to get a clear idea of what this student was going through, what they were thinking about that may have potentially contributed to what we saw unfold yesterday. >> well, i think you're exactly right. so, you know, immediately following columbine, there was this narrative that was ultimately disproved that essentially, like, these were innocent kids in columbine who were bullied and that the real villain in columbine was the bullies. right? that the bullies caused the school shooting that turned out to be completely inaccurate. certainly they can go to peers. and i think getting that kind of information is good, especially if there are direct messages or other tidbits of information that peers can demonstrate.

they can prove that they were privy to in terms of this perpetrator's thoughts. but really, i think the best avenue is the deep search of that online activity. those online communications, you know, that's a massive advantage we have compared to studying past incidents. you know, i've looked at incidents dating back to 1966. there are a lot of question marks back then that now we can answer because we have an insight into what that person was thinking at 3 a.m., for example, or what that person was thinking that they would never have the courage to say to someone else face to face, but they would post about or write online. so, um, i really think that that's the best avenue. of course. um, they're really just looking for any information they can get at this point, and they'll sort through it later. >> and daniel, i want to ask you, because we saw that he was saying disciplinary records from the school. that's not under their purview. they

don't have those records. they're not the proprietor of those. i think a lot of folks might think that the school is going to, you know, immediately turn over things. talk to us a little bit about that, because it's important to note that in other school shootings, there's been a question of should schools be liable? we saw in the oxford school shooting, parents wanted to hold the school liable. and i have to be very clear, we do not know the specifics of this case, but just talk to us a little bit about how that works. does the school turn over those to law enforcement? um, what are the concerns of the school in this case? >> well, i'm sure that those records involve other students. i'm sure that there is going to have other names of other students, which if there was an incident that she may have been involved with. so clearly, i think legally, um, in the law enforcement will have to get some sort of subpoena or search warrant to, um, you know, make ensure that the documents are

acquired by law enforcement correctly and to protect the identity of any other students which may have had an incident with her. it's about protecting all the other students as well, but making sure that we understand as part of the understanding where this all went and part of the investigation, everything that is connected to this young lady will be looked at, will be associated, will be interviewed. they want to find out everything. if there were other people who were involved, may have facilitated in training with the weapons or in seeing red flags along the way. but getting these documents in any other documents, social media platforms, postings, everything to and to verify that that information is correct. and that's why the chief is careful to say that this manifesto has not been verified. they need to verify that it is actually her words before they put out anything publicly. >> daniel bruner, adam langford, thank you so much for the perspective. appreciate you being with us. thank you. stay

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embraced mangione, a suspected murderer, with some heralding him for allegedly killing the industry executive. i want to bring back in elizabeth benjamin. she's with the community service society of new york, a nonprofit that advocates for low and moderate income new yorkers on multiple fronts, including on health care. elizabeth, we are very appreciative of you joining us. and i obviously want to differentiate between those folks who are celebrating a tragedy and a heinous act and those who are not radicals, who are not seeking to unravel the social fabric, but rather are concerned about the status of health care in this country and whether it is just or not. i'm curious whether you have an answer as to how frequently insurance claims for medical purposes are denied, and if it's something that is becoming more common. >> well, i think that is the 64

million or, you know, $350 million question. i wish we knew how many claims are denied. the sad fact is, is that the federal government and state governments, who often are charged with administering health insurance companies, some don't really report out how many claims are denied or how many are even processed. we have one report from a group called kff that indicates around 17% of the claims that they looked at, and they looked at hundreds of millions were denied. and that's what we know from cms. but of those claims that were analyzed, there were many states that didn't, including my own new york, that do not participate and do not report the number of claims that are denied. so if i had one wish, it would be to see that government got a little more involved with having help helping us all understand how many claims are denied by carrier and for what

reason. because right now, and i think the frustration a lot of people feel is they have no idea why their claims are being denied. they just know they're getting the runaround. >> is it fair to say that often when those claims are denied, the justification is nebulous for a reason? and in other words, that these insurance companies are not being clear with the people that they are supposed to provide care for in order to make it more difficult for them to actually pay out. >> it's hard to know. i mean, you know, we we don't i can't really opine about the motivations of insurance companies. i know that it feels that way to consumers. and we hear that a lot on our helpline. we run a consumer assistance program that helps over 30,000 people a year. um, access care, deal with medical claims, resolve medical debt issues. when they reach us, we

can, you know, we prevail over 87% of the time. but we're experts. um, and regular lay people who are just patients that work other jobs or, you know, just aren't experts. and it shouldn't really take an expert to get support for appealing a claim denial or just understanding why your denial is being rejected or why your claim is being rejected. >> yeah, it's important to know that resources are out there and available for folks. i know that insurance industry reps often will point to claims being denied because they say that doctors submit faulty paperwork or it's submitted incorrectly. i wonder whether you have found that that and the majority of these cases in whatever proportion is actually true. >> that is, there is some truth to that. and one of the problems that i would say is

because we have so many insurance companies and so many providers and absolutely zero interest in having standardized claims processing forms, that that because we don't have a level of standardization in how we submit claims, how claims are adjudicated, that that's part of the problem. if, you know, i was queen of the centers for medicaid and medicare services for a day, i that would be the first thing i would work on is saying, okay, enough of letting everybody do their own experimentation. this isn't working for patients. it's working for everybody in the industry. and so we really have to sort of rethink how we run insurance companies and the way claims are being submitted by providers, by patients, by pharmacies. i myself was on the phone for 45 minutes. i have a master's in public health and a law degree from ivy league institutions, and it took me 40 minutes to work out with seven

different representatives at cbs and another entity to get a claim resolved for my child. and i'm an expert. how do you think regular americans are supposed to handle these problems? it's just people give up and that's not fair because that's what drives our country to have such an unheard of medical debt burden. we just don't see this level of medical debt anywhere else in, you know, in in our peer countries. >> elizabeth benjamin, which i actually oh, i'm sorry, i was just going to say, i think that that, you know, one thing that, um, the shooter did point out is, you know, we spend more on health care than anywhere else in the world. >> and yet our quality of care, it ranks 42. um, and so i think we do really need to look harder at how we run our insurance systems and how we can help patients by funding programs like mine, consumer

assistance programs that are free to help patients kind of navigate the system as it is. >> elizabeth benjamin, we very much appreciate your perspective. again, we are set to hear from manhattan district attorney alvin bragg within the next hour on this case of luigi mangione. thank you again, elizabeth, for your time. >> thank you for having me. >> sure. still to come on cnn, new charges against the man suspected in the gilgo beach murders, how officials tied him to a now seventh victim. >> i want to be the greatest player that i could possibly become. dali hurry, hurry. >> you don't stop being you just because you turn 65. but

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you may be entitled to a portion of that money. >> call one 800 859 2400. that's one 800 859 2400. >> the man suspected in the gilgo beach murders is now charged in the death of a seventh woman. authorities releasing a new superseding indictment today, charging rex heuermann in the killing of valerie mack. her partial remains were found on long island some 24 years ago. >> let's bring in cnn's jean casarez. jean, you have been following this case closely as the number of alleged victims has ticked up. how did authorities tie huberman to this seventh victim? >> well, it's basically forensics, dna and the advent of that technology. >> but let's start at 2000, because there's there's a definite timeline here and so much new information in the year 2000 is actually when they found partial remains in manorville long island of an unknown victim. and from 2000 to 2011, they did not know who this was, but they knew that

the person was decapitated, that their arms right above the wrists were were cut off along with the right leg to the calf. in 2011, near gilgo beach, where they had found other gilgo beach victims, they found the other parts of that body determined to be a female. they still did not know who it was. then, in 2020, they did genetic genealogy. so think about how long that of a time period that was from 2000 to 2020. and they determined that it was a female named valerie mack. she was from philadelphia and she had a son and she was a victim of murder. i want you to listen today to the district attorney of suffolk county, long island, new york. >> the lives of these women matter and, you know, we as investigators, we understand that obviously, no one

understands it more than the families. so, again, we're just, you know, delighted and honored and privileged to be able to work with these families and again, you know, there's there's there's not so much we can do, but at least we provide them with a small measure of closure. >> so how does this tie in with rex heuermann? according to the district attorney's office forensics, there was a hair on the left hand near the wrist of valerie mack. it took years to do that. testing involved that involving that hair, but it was determined to be through nuclear dna that of valerie heuermann, who was victoria human, the daughter of rex heuermann. that was one link also with the electronic documents he had diagramed how you tie up a victim and how you mutilate them and what you do, and that is how valerie mack was found. >> horrific. jean casarez,

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