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>> this is cnn, the world's news network. >> this is g.p.s., the global public square. welcome to all of you in the united states and around the world. i'm fareed zakaria. coming to you from davos, switzerland. today on the program. iran and israel are sworn enemies. iran openly calls for the destruction of israel, while prime minister netanyahu has called iran the greatest threat to the world. we'll try to get past some of this rhetoric with important conversations on both sides of the divide. as i sit down with israel's president isaac herzog, and iran's vice president for strategic affairs, mohammad javad zarif. here at the world economic forum, also, i asked

the wto's director general whether donald trump's love for tariffs will lead to global trade wars. but first, here's my take. talking to people from across the world at the world economic forum in davos this week, from europe to the middle east to india, the reaction to donald trump's second term has been more varied and less panicked than his first term. most are anxious, but in many countries, leaders think they can make deals with him. others believe that his bark is worse than his bite. all the people i spoke with, however, are puzzled by one core aspect of trump's worldview that america is a patsy. >> we will not allow ourselves to be taken advantage of any longer. >> trump declared in his inaugural address. secretary of state marco rubio, doing his best to imitate trump in his confirmation hearings, explained that the united states has in recent decades too often

prioritized the global order over its own national interests. this picture of america strikes the rest of the world as bizarre, almost upside down. after all, america has routinely used military force in pursuit of its national interests, no matter what global opinion thought. it invaded iraq over the objections of other un security council members and protests involving millions across the world. it sanctions countries unilaterally from iran to cuba to venezuela, even when its closest allies disagree. and between 2009 and 2023, it imposed the most protectionist trade measures of any country on the planet. the rest of the world sees the u.s. as a country that knows it is the world's superpower, and acts like it, extracting special terms for itself on almost every issue that it regards as important to its national

interests. as one foreign leader who did not wish to be named explained, we all accommodate american requests and wishes far more than those from any other country. it is true, however, that while always protecting its own national prerogatives and freedom of action, america has also tried to help build a better world. before the u.s. fully entered the international arena in world war two, great power war, nationalism and protectionism were all everyday features of international life. there was little global cooperation and much less financial help, from the rich to the poor. after 1945, the world built an open economy that has lifted billions out of poverty and disease. international institutions have tried to tackle common problems. great power wars have faded into the history books. america has been key to this transformation. after world war ii, far from

asking for tribute from the defeated powers, it gave them money to rebuild. it opened up its economy to the world, trying to create a system in which everyone could thrive. and peace was more profitable than war. that vision succeeded, and no country has benefited more than the united states of america. america has remained the world's leading economic, technological, military, and political power. 80 years after world war two. in fact, in recent decades, the gap between america and many other rich countries, germany and japan has actually increased, with about 4% of the world's population. america is today over a quarter of global gdp, roughly the same position it was in during ronald reagan's presidency. nearly half a century ago. what's more, the technologies of the future are ones that america leads in and might well dominate. but that is not enough for donald trump. he wants to squeeze every

foreigner for more. in 2017, during a meeting with the president of panama. president trump complained that panama charged the u.s. navy too much. well, the amount panama charged them to cross the canal at the time was about $1 million a year, which comes out to less than 0.0002% of that year's pentagon budget. but trump wanted to shake down a poorer central american country and get a discount. it's a way of being that is always about a transaction rather than a relationship. america is so powerful that it's quite possible that trump will succeed in getting these discounts, as he threatens other countries, most of them friends, allies, and partners. but in doing so, he will lose the goodwill generated over decades of american foreign policy that made so many countries around the world want to ally with

washington against the soviet union or russia or china. and he might unleash forces of nationalism and protectionism that, over time, will damage, even destroy the world that america created, a world that has been more stable, peaceful, prosperous and free than any we have known before. go to cnn.com, fareed, for a link to my washington post column this week. and let's get started. the ceasefire deal between israel and hamas has held since last weekend. hamas released hostages last weekend and again yesterday, as did israel with palestinian prisoners. this is set to continue under phase one of the deal, which lasts five more weeks. still to be negotiated are a possible phase

2 or 3, which could bring back all the hostages and even end the war for good, and begin a new chapter in gaza. earlier this week, i spoke in davos to israel's head of state, president isaac herzog, about the prospects for a phase two and about the future of the region, a potential palestinian state, and much more. we are what is it now? one year, three months from the october 7th attack, which then triggered the war. and it seems to me that israel's situation today has utterly transformed hamas is in very bad shape. its leadership has been largely destroyed. hezbollah has been substantially weakened. multiple levels of its leadership have been destroyed. iran, its air defenses have been essentially neutralized. its capacity to make weaponry has been significantly impeded. when

you look at all that, do you view it as an opportunity for israel? and what kind of opportunity? >> first of all, we have we are still at war. of course, the ceasefire began on sunday and that is a very blessed moment, especially as we are hoping and yearning and working towards bringing back our hostages. clearly, the situation poses a great opportunity for the world at large, especially the free world, because the source of evil that emanates and covers us all starts with terror, especially with iranian instigated terror. this is the strategic issue above everything. each proxy you deal with the houthis, hezbollah, hamas, iraq, et cetera. and so forth and so on is all supported and financed, organized, commanded,

controlled, trained by iran. this empire of evil in tehran is still spending billions. and i have news for you and the entire universe. they are working day in and day out even now, rather than soul searching, looking in the mirror, seeing how they failed and how much damage and havoc and sorrow they created with their barbaric attacks, with their proxies, they are continuing endlessly, rushing towards the bomb. and of course, planning all the time. terror attacks world over and in our region. and i warning the world not to fall into kind of an aura of optimism, but rather be lucid about it. >> but let me ask you then, what would you advocate happen with iran? because right now the united states has already a fairly strong. i mean, there are sanctions against iran. the united states supported israel when it went after iran's air defenses. do you believe that

this is the moment to strike iran? do you believe it's the moment to confront iran with a new nuclear deal, which is, you know, no nuclear program, but also no support for proxies? >> so i would be, of course, cautious in what i say because of the sensitivity. and it will have to be deliberated between israel and all the rest of the region, with the u.s. administration clearly. one thing has to be absolutely clear. iran cannot have nuclear capabilities. and two. iran has to stop with its proxies. and this kind of axis of evil, which has caused such tremendous pain. >> let me ask you about the prospects of getting more hostages out, which is getting to the second phase of the deal and the second phase of the deal. israeli forces do have to withdraw. according to the the outlines from some

substantial areas. if that happens, it has already been made clear that the minister of finance, mr. smotrich, will resign, in which case bibi netanyahu does not have a majority. is it inevitable that we will never get to the second phase because of that complexity? >> no, i believe that that there is a clear potential of getting to the second phase. there is a desire to get to the second phase. we meant it when we signed the agreement. we know that there are challenges and arguments. israel is a democracy and you want, you know, you want to know something. i truly understand those who have reservations and fears because we are going to release terrible terrorists. this is the whole equation we are asking to release women and children, and for that we are paying with terrorists, cruel, barbaric terrorists. but we all agree that this has to be done. we want them home. it's top

priority of the nation of israel. we will have to deal with the real question of the day after in gaza. how do we make sure that this does not recur? how do we make sure that it's not hamas who dictates and leads that place? we have to learn from historic lessons and from all our experiences, and as such, focus on that. and i think the crux of the discussions will have to do deal with that. regarding the second phase. >> so people like general petraeus, who's a friend of israel, say that the israel's military strategy has been misguided, that it has been entirely focused on simply destroying hamas without building up confidence. and in the rest of the palestinian population and without separating, if you will, the terrorists from the local population. as a result, he predicted very early on on my program that israel would have to keep going back into each of

these towns khan younis wherever it was back, you know, again and again, that is that does seem to be what's happened. so is that how do you get out of that cycle without trying to in some way give the palestinians in gaza some confidence that they have a leadership that they that they feel is legitimate? >> there's one thing in petraeus's comments that, in my mind, suffered from a certain naivete in the way you focus on it. the truth of the matter is that our soldiers were shocked in the infrastructure that they found in gaza, meaning in so many houses there were tunnels leading to the command and control centers of hamas, to places where hostages are held to huge amounts of ammunition. it's a whole school of military operational tactics that were basically strategy. they filled up gaza on behalf of

iran and hamas as a terror base to be launched against israel. same goes by the way, for southern lebanon. you know, that we unraveled about 85,000 weapons of all sorts, from missiles to rifles throughout the little strip that we took over and cleaned up in southern lebanon. so meaning that we have an issue here, how to make sure that this does not recur. when i spoke in congress three months before the war and a joint session, i said that it is only terror which is blocking peace. >> next, on gps, i asked president herzog whether israel is committed to the creation of a palestinian state. >> fareed zakaria gps, brought to you by fisher investments. clearly, different money management. >> we just want to have enough

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>> closed captioning brought to you by. book. >> if you or a loved one have mesothelioma, we'll send you a free book to answer questions you may have. call now and we'll come to you. >> 808 two one 4000. >> more now of my interview from davos with israel's president isaac herzog. so you talked about transforming the region. and part of that clearly would be if israel and saudi arabia could have relations, because that would almost certainly then trigger a broader arab reconciliation with israel. the saudi government has made clear that in order for that to happen, they need to see, in the foreign minister's words, permanent and irreversible steps toward a palestinian state. the crown prince of saudi arabia has talked about a return to 67 borders. is israel willing to make those kind of concessions to get to

that transformed state of relations? >> i would say, first of all, that the grand vision, and it's something that makes so much sense is that the children of abraham, muslims and jews, jews and muslims dwell together in peace in the region of their creation. it is something that, after the enormous pain, really pain and enormous tragedies, we should strive for. and i think that a cornerstone for the next step of getting to that dream realized is a normalization, as they call it. but let's be honest, as real dialog between israel and saudi arabia. and i believe that this must be moved forward. i say it openly. i supported it, and i still support it. >> what is your vision for the 7 million palestinians who live in israel, in gaza and the west bank? they neither have full

political rights in israel. they are not israeli citizens, nor do they have full political rights in their own country. what is to happen to them? >> so we should strive for peace, and they deserve to have peace just like us. and but it requires them. to disseminate and understand. the terror is out of the question under any circumstances. i believe that there will be a moment after the enormous pain and after the, you know, the rules are set which mean no more terror that there will be a moment where we'll have to have real peace with our palestinian neighbors. and i am i dream of that day, but it will take time. >> does that include a palestinian state? >> it includes many ideas because the idea of the two

state solution is something which, you know, on record, i supported in the past many times. but i would say that i had a wake up call following october 7th in the sense that i want to hear my neighbors say how much they object, regret, condemn, and do not accept in any way the terrible tragedy of the terror attack of october 7th and the fact that terror cannot be the tool to get there. i mean, you know, innocent civilians were butchered, raped, abducted, burned to death. hostages are still in the dungeons of gaza. this doesn't work this way. if we are dignified human beings, it is unacceptable under any norm. we understand that there must be a political, move forward on the palestinian front. but the one has to understand the state of mind of israelis to come after such a horror and a national

trauma, surrounded by from seven different frontiers, and expect israelis to say, hey guys, we are just, you know, we're withdrawing, we're pulling out from that settlement or otherwise. that's not realistic at all. it doesn't make sense to israelis. they need to see something that makes sense in terms of their personal security and safety. >> thanks to president herzog for his perspective. next, i'll speak to an official from israel's chief enemy, iran. >> kobe believed in himself at the youngest possible age. >> he's one of the most remarkable stories in sports history. >> i don't want to be remembered as just a basketball player. >> a special encore presentation of kobe tonight at ten on cnn. >> patients who have sensitive teeth but also want whiter teeth. they have to make a choice one versus the other. sensodyne clinical white provides two shades whiter

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edition of gps from davos, switzerland before the break. you saw my interview with the president of israel. now onto that country's foe, iran. joining me now, of course, is a man who needs no introduction, probably the most famous visible face of iran over the last three decades that people have encountered. deputy foreign minister, ambassador to the un, now vice president javad zarif, pleasure to have you on. >> good to be with you. >> let me begin by telling you what it looks like to me right now in terms of iran's position in the region. i think one could make an argument that iran has never been in a weaker position. you made a huge bet on assad in syria. enormous amount of money, arms, militias. assad is gone.

hezbollah, a key ally in lebanon, has been decapitated, decimated in terms of its force. you have relations with hamas, hamas leadership has been destroyed. its tunnel infrastructure has been destroyed. the whole idea of the axis of resistance, this these militia groups, these substate actors that were going to push back against israel, against, you know, the gulf arabs, perhaps american interests. it all seems to be much, much weaker than it was before. i'm sure you're going to disagree. so tell me why. >> well, first of all. let me make two points, because we don't have much time. first point. in 1982, if you can remember, sharon invaded lebanon pushed all the way into

beirut in order to basically decimate the palestinian resistance. if you remember, he sent arafat to exile to tunisia. tunis. so what happened from 1981 to 1987, islamic jihad was born in 81. hezbollah was born in 82. and hamas was born between 85 and 87. so i wouldn't suggest anybody to start rejoicing over destroying hamas, hezbollah or the palestinian resistance, or to cutting iran's arms. because the resistance will stay as long as the occupation stays. i think right now, as you look at gaza, hamas is still there.

israel did netanyahu did not achieve his goal of destroying hamas. hamas is still there. israel had to come to a ceasefire. temporary. i hope it will be permanent for the sake of 50,000 people who were massacred. genocide by israel, so that there won't be another 50,000. but resistance is not dead. i can tell you that the wishes for the resistance to go away has been based on a misrepresentation, a framing by israel that this is not an israeli-palestinian issue, but an israeli iranian issue. that's number one. number two, go back to 1981 82 and move all the way to 2023, 2024. give me a single sentence instance. when this resistance operated on

iranian behalf. they always worked for their own cause, even at our expense. they never carried out orders. we didn't know about october 7th. actually, we were supposed to have a meeting with the americans on jcpoa renewal on october 9th, which was undermined and destroyed by this operation. >> but then it makes the case that this has been a very unwise investment for. iran to to be funding all these militias, which are not even doing iran's interests. >> let's not talk about funding, because a lot of people are funding a lot of things, and they're not successful. but let's focus on the fact that we have supported people's rights. people will continue to resist. now, why am i making this statement? because if you want to resolve the problem of palestine, you should not look

at iran. you should look at the palestinian issue. as long as the palestinian issue is there, the struggle will be there. the resistance will be there, and there will be support from the international community, including from arab allies of the united states. >> i take your point. but if i may. with respect, you haven't answered my question, which is about iran's position. you have. you've lost a key ally in assad. you've lost, or at least you have a much weaker ally in hezbollah. your air defenses have been destroyed. we have reports. we have reports. or you tell me if it's not true. we have reports of generals in iran talking about the fact that they've paid a very heavy price for this support of assad. is it not true that that you are in a much weaker position? >> but let me make again a couple of points. we fought iraq when we didn't have any air defense, when we didn't have any weapons, we didn't have anything. we stood against iraq

for eight years and we did not give up an inch of our territory. so first of all, the story about destroying our air defense is a story because and there is a reason behind it. >> and i'm saying it didn't happen. >> no, we suffered, but it didn't mean that we lost our air defense. but i answered your question by saying that find me a single instance when these groups, which are, i think, erroneously called iranian proxies, operated on our behalf, if they did not operate on our behalf, what does what do they do to our strength? now, you can tell me that we worked on their behalf diplomatically, and that gave us strength, but we never tried to cash. our investment in the region. you now tell me that this was a

foolish investment. i believe that you and i belong to a school of thought in social science, which does not believe in only material power. we, both of us, believe in ideational power. the fact that iran can in fact, move people in the streets in many parts of the world gives us power, with or without hezbollah. >> but let me ask. >> you about we still possess that power. we can still move people, inspire people, as we did in the beginning of the revolution. >> next on gps. could president trump revive a nuclear deal after famously pulling out of the last one seven years ago? i'll ask vice president zarif when we come back. >> welcome back. >> have i got news for you returns february 15th on

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two from 1994 96 that iran will have a nuclear weapon in six months. now, what we're about, what, 30 years later and we still are a couple of days away from nuclear weapons. some people want to frame iran as a security threat. iran a phobia, islamophobia are tools to carry out programs like the genocide in gaza. >> let me ask you about the foreign affairs article you wrote. you talked about how under trump, there may be an opportunity for a deal with iran. i was surprised by that because trump is, after all, the person who pulled out of the iran nuclear deal, the jcpoa. why do you think that the guy who pulled out of the iran nuclear deal and reimposed american sanctions on iran said, i want maximum pressure on iran. why is there an opportunity?

>> well, there is always hope that people will choose rationality. and so i hope that this time around, a trump two will be more serious, more focused, more realistic to know that his withdrawal from that, the withdrawal that was imposed on him. and he has said it, that he did it for israel, and he has said now that he won't do anything for any other country. he said it on his inauguration. after he withdrew from jcpoa iran has gained much more nuclear capability based on your breakout calculations, i don't do breakout calculations because we don't want a breakout, but based on american breakout calculations, we were a year

away from a nuclear weapon, and today even the americans say we are a few days away. so in terms of being able to dissuade iran, it has failed. now it has imposed heavy economic costs on the iranian people. of course, the iranian government is suffering, but the iranian people and the most vulnerable groups in iran are suffering the most. >> there are people in washington who talk about a new deal, a new iran nuclear deal, but one that would also include a pledge by iran not to continue supporting proxies or militant groups. >> we've never had proxies. >> not supporting groups like hamas, hezbollah and et cetera.. would you would iran consider such a deal? >> you see, the united states was always insisting that we we have a regional deal. we are we have good relations with saudi arabia. we have good relations with the united arab emirates. and you say our our

arms are cut off. so why do they worry about them if iran doesn't have any strength in the region, if iran's arms. >> but then a pledge not to not to help them rebuild would be, would you consider. >> that the problem is that's the wrong address? the address for the resistance in the region is in tel aviv, is in is occupation genocide, apartheid and violation of palestinian rights. the address is not in tehran. the united states and israel for the next 50 years. can push iran that will not resolve the palestinian issue. they want to resolve the palestinian issue. the only solution, and i think everybody who has spoken here in in davos 2025, probably with the exception of the gentleman you interviewed yesterday, have

insisted that the only solution is a viable palestinian state, unless that solution is reached, there will be more resistance, there will be more groups with or without iran's help. iran has always supported struggle of people for their human rights, for their right to self-determination, and we will continue to support that. but that's not the cause. there has to be a struggle before you can support it. your support does not create the struggle. there is a struggle. there is a resistance caused by the fact that there is an occupation, aggression, violation of human rights. >> thanks to vice president zarif. next on gps, trump says tariffs are coming on china and canada and mexico and even the european union. are we entering a new era of trade wars? i'll

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fees and no obligations. get the real value from your life insurance when you need it. with abacus. >> the whole story with anderson. >> cooper tonight at eight on cnn. >> closed captioning brought to you by mso book.com. >> if you or a loved one have mesothelioma, we'll send you a free book to answer questions you may have. call now and we'll come to you. >> 808 two one 4000. >> for much of the last century, america has been the champion of free trade. >> a tariff of 10% on china based on the. >> but that's changed in recent years and is set to change even more dramatically under president trump, who says he plans to throw up high tariffs

on many of america's main trading partners. what should we make of this protectionist turn? could it usher in a global trade war? for more, i spoke with ngozi okonjo-iweala, who is the director general of the world trade organization. madam director general, pleasure to have you on. >> thanks. good to see you again, fareed, and happy new year. >> thank you. so i've got to ask you, how do you think about this issue, which everybody is talking about, which is that the the creator, founder, you know, underwriter of global free trade for the last 75 years, the united states is clearly moving with the new trump administration in a protectionist direction. he's talked about 10% tariffs, 25% tariffs, 100% tariffs. when you hear that, what do you think? >> well thank you, fareed. a very good question. what i'd like to say is let's step back a bit over this past five years,

at least, since i've been director general of the world trade organization. trade has been facing challenging times with increasing protectionism and protectionist measures, not just by the u.s., but several members. and that has been a cause for concern. but against that backdrop, i want to say something. when you look at the numbers, trade has been largely resilient. trade, you know, at $30.4 trillion, that is higher than the pre-pandemic peak. that's one point. second, our latest numbers show that 80% of world trade is still going on on wto. most favored nation terms. so there's resilience. but yes, there's cause to worry. we are seeing increasing fragmentation and protectionism. we've done some work and we've shown that if we break into two, let's say geopolitically divided trading blocs, we would end up with a 6.4% loss in

global real gdp. in the longer term, this is huge. this is an impact on everyone, and it's up to six. this is $6.7 trillion loss. it's like losing the economies of japan and korea combined. so we don't want to see this increased fragmentation because it's not good for anyone. >> what do you say to americans who say, look, we like free trade, but the chinese have not played by the rules. they've shielded themselves. they've claimed to be a developing country. their government subsidizes a lot of their, you know, car manufacturers, whatever it is. and then we have to face that. that's unfair competition. why should we not have tariffs? >> well, we say this, first of all, the wto provides a forum to actually discuss and explore this problem. when you have complaints against a member, you launch your studies, you demonstrate how this is harming your economy. and then there are remedies that you can follow.

>> so you're not panicking about the trump administration. >> i'm not to to say that, you know, yes, i have concerns, but i'm not panicking. i feel actually i've been saying to members at davos, let's chill, let's not get too overexcited. and to our members, i've also been saying, look, let's not do any for tat. it's not when you hear something from one member, you immediately apply counter-tariffs or do something else. let's have a considered approach. we do have methods to deal with these issues and follow them. >> but when you hear somebody like the prime minister of canada, he's talking about retaliating and he says everything is on the table. >> politicians need to defend themselves right amongst their population. so i'm not surprised to hear that. but i do think that we have very responsible members, of which canada is one, the eu, the u.s., and that they are trying to follow the path. i've seen the eu launch an investigation. china is doing the same. they have complaints against the eu and we've said the same to them, and they are actually following that path. and they

are very tough discussions going on between china and the eu now. so what we are trying to do is to encourage greater transparency among our members. so we get the facts and we can actually have a considered and mature dialog. that's what we want. we want not for tat. look, we've been there before, fareed. when we had for tat in the 1930s, you know, the smoot-hawley act resulted in this, and it worsened the great depression. and we've seen this movie before. so i'm encouraging members. i know we love reruns of old movies, but i don't think this will be a particularly good rerun. >> and jose, pleasure to have you on. >> thank you. >> thanks to all of you for being part of my program this week. i will see you next week. >> for a special encore presentation of kobe the main tonight at ten on cnn. >> want a next level clean swish with the whoa of listerine? it kills 99.9% of bad breath germs for five times more cleaning power than brushing and flossing

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