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ac360 starts now. >> tonight on 360, there's breaking news, mass confusion in a major legal fight. can president trump unilaterally freeze potentially trillions in federal spending? also tonight, a global health program credited with saving the lives of more than 25 million people could be deeply impacted by president trump's freeze or killed altogether, putting millions of patients at risk, plus, harsh words from former ambassador caroline kennedy. she calls her cousin bobby kennedy, the hhs secretary nominee, a predator. we begin with breaking news tonight. a federal judge late today temporarily blocked president trump's order to freeze up to trillions of dollars in federal money. the move came after the president's new policy set off confusion across federal agencies and among lawmakers, including republicans. the confusion began late monday when the acting director of the office of management and budget released a memo detailing a pause on federal federal funding. now,

the guidelines appeared vague but far reaching. it read in part federal agencies must temporarily pause all activities related to obligation or disbursement of all federal financial assistance and other relevant agency activities that may be implicated by the executive orders, including but not limited to, financial assistance for foreign aid, non-governmental organizations, di woke, gender ideology, and the green new deal. now, again, the language is vague but appeared to be to place under review hundreds of programs from all parts of the government. in response, a second memo was released today, but it is still unclear tonight which specific programs are under review. earlier on cnn, one of president trump's top advisers tried to blame the media for the confusion. >> we just talked to congressman don bacon, a republican, a trump supporter. we just interviewed him. he said that there was a lot of confusion. he said that the executive. >> created by the created by the media. jake, the omb guidance memo, if you read it, is as

clear as day. >> well, that was stephen miller, the deputy chief of staff for policy. he said the policy was clear as day. here's the white house press secretary in her first news conference several hours earlier, unable to answer a simple question about medicaid funding. >> it wasn't clear to me whether you were saying that no medicaid would be cut off. obviously, a lot of this goes to states before it goes to individuals and so forth. so are you guaranteeing here that no individual now on medicaid would see a cutoff because of the pause? >> i'll check back on that and get back to you. >> well, a short time after she was unable to answer that question, she tweeted this. the white house is aware of the medicaid website portal outage. we have confirmed no payments have been affected. they are still being processed and sent. we expect the portal will be back online shortly. as of this moment, there's been no updates from the press secretary whether a program that affects more than 79 million people by the most recent government count is indeed back up. i want to start with chief white house correspondent kaitlan collins, anchor of the source at the top of the next hour. so what is the

latest you're hearing from white house officials about why this happened? and if they're going to comply with the federal judge's order? >> no word yet, anderson, from the white house on their reaction to what this federal judge did this afternoon by saying, hey, we're putting a pause on all of this, which really the judge said was for the court's benefit for the next several days, because this was all supposed to go into effect today at 5 p.m. eastern. now it is temporarily paused until monday because there are real questions about the scope of this and the ramifications of it, because the white house said earlier, this is not a blanket freeze on all funding. but when you look at the memo of everything that this touches, it is very comprehensive and it ranges far beyond what we had heard from officials talking about die programs or climate change programs and ideas, frankly, that the white house disagrees with. but it goes into the department of agriculture, the pentagon. there's really every facet of the federal government that this touches, and that is why there was such confusion not caused by the media, but but among state and local officials and people

who run these organizations, who asked, how is this going to affect us? because when you look at the memo that the white house sent, because they were getting a lot of calls from lawmakers on capitol hill about this, and also governors across the united states, including the virginia governor, glenn youngkin, who said he spoke to senior officials in the budget office today about what exactly this means. but when you look at the memo that they followed up with to capitol hill, anderson, it says social security is off the table, medicare is off the table. they do say medicaid will not be affected. but that was long after we had already heard states reporting in that the portals themselves were not working, largely due to confusion over what exactly was being touched here. it just speaks to really the clarity that even republicans were seeking on what this means, how long it's going to go on for, and really just every program that is going to potentially touch here. >> we saw stephen miller's reaction to to jake tapper talking about chaos. what is the administration saying about the

criticism that this has provoked? i mean, mostly from democrats, but some republicans too. >> yeah, but some republicans are defending it, which is, of course, surprising. they are lawmakers who are the ones on capitol hill that control the powers of the purse. they're the ones who allocate this funding. and i think that's what's important to remember here, is that all of this funding has already been allocated by congress. it's already there. they're not asking for new funding or saying, we're going to put a stop to this. it's already been signed into law, passed by congress and signed by the president. and so when i was in the briefing earlier today, the first one of this administration, i should note, i asked karoline leavitt about the legality of this. what were they leaning on to to justify this decision? anderson? and this is what she said. who advised the president on the legality of telling government agencies that they don't have to spend money that was already appropriated by congress? >> well, as the omb memo states, this is certainly within the confines of the law. so white house counsel's office believes that this is within the president's power to do it, and therefore he's doing it. >> okay. so they disagree with

lawmakers who say that they don't have the power to to freeze this funding. >> again, i would point you to the language in the memo that clearly states this is within the law. >> now, the question here is how judges see this, because i don't think that what we're seeing tonight is far from the end of the legal challenges to this, that there are real questions about what that looks like going forward. anderson. but also, there are some who have said, maybe this is the point that the administration wants to get this in front of more courts and potentially even maybe the supreme court as they make the argument that trump has a lot more executive power than maybe some senate democrats are seeing it, and that he can decide where this funding goes, even if it's already been allocated by congress. >> does the white house have any more updates at this point to how it will or will not impact medicaid? >> no, they're just saying flatly that it's not impacting medicaid, that it's not going to pause payments. but if, of course, people can't access the portals, then it is affecting that. so that's the question of when those portals will be able to be accessible and people can can access this. and the other part of this is one thing that karoline leavitt stressed today

is saying individuals are not going to be affected by this. that's student loans. snap, for example, things that people rely on every single day. but what we also heard from a lot of organizers are people who run organizations was saying that, you know, maybe this money is not going to an individual person, but it's coming to a veterans organization, and then we're dispersing it to other people. so that has really been the question here of how it's affecting and who it's affecting. exactly. >> yeah, caitlin, appreciate it. we'll see you at the source at the top of the hour. perspective now from democratic congressman dan goldman of new york. congressman goldman, congress has the power of the purse. was this move by the trump administration, in your opinion, legal? >> no, it's definitely not legal. and i think it's important to understand how the appropriations process works. it's very complicated. but congress, of course, appropriates money that is signed by the president as part of the budget. that money goes to executive branch agencies, and they are then required to implement the execution of those

laws and allocate that money, that money, then is administered, is obligated to states, to nonprofits, to all sorts of other entities. and there is these portals that caitlin mentioned where depending on what grant you receive, you can access a portal and portal and draw down money. so that's what was stopped today. and that's money that forget about congress appropriating it. it has already been designated by the federal government, and it has already been awarded and granted to states. two nonprofit organizations. so in addition to just pausing future obligated money, future grants of the money, they actually are stopping the money that these nonprofits, these community health centers, states, medicaid, head start. the list goes on and on. the money that they rely on every

day. and many of these organizations cannot last a week. they do not have enough cash reserves to last a week before shutting down. and these are services that are essential to hard working americans. >> in new york, which you represent new york in new york city, a district in new york city. what kind of real world impact do you think it could have? >> well, it's going to have a tremendous amount of impact if it were to continue. we caitlin mentioned that the medicaid portals were down today. we got anecdotal evidence from a head start, a preschool program that they were unable to draw down on their funds, even though the administration says that's not going to be touched. what really happened here, anderson, is that they planned to stop all funding and that there was enough of an outrage that they released supplemental guidance today trying to roll this back. but what was clear is they shut down all of the money right away, and

that was their plan. and what either they didn't realize because of ignorance or perhaps cruelty was the point of it, is that it would have a tremendous impact on hundreds of millions of americans. >> does this have a recourse at this point, or even an appetite among your republican colleagues, to push back on this? >> well, anderson, as we know, my republican colleagues always have the opportunity to push back against donald trump's lawlessness. i was pleased to see senator grassley and senator durbin write a joint letter today asking donald trump to comply with the law, which he did not do when he fired 17 inspectors general last friday night. but really, if we are going to if congress is going to have any authority, any separation of power, any ability to be a check and balance on the executive branch, republican members of congress who control both houses are going to have to

grow a spine, step up and stand up to this president and his lawlessness. $3 trillion are distributed through these federal programs and the a policy difference under the law is not a good a good reason. it's not a sufficient reason to stop payment of federal funds. so just because donald trump doesn't like it does not give him license under the law. as karoline leavitt said, there's no of course, no reference to what law. but it is flatly illegal. >> congressman dan goldman, i appreciate it. thank you. joining me now is cnn political commentator and republican strategist shermichael singleton, cnn senior legal analyst and former federal prosecutor elie honig, and journalist gretchen carlson. elie, is this constitutional? >> i do not think this is constitutional. and i think this will be struck down by the courts for two reasons. >> first of all, by the supreme court. >> yes. but ultimately, i think this will land in the supreme court, and i do not think they will support donald trump. first of all, just basic constitutional law. article one creates congress, the very first power given to congress in the

constitution is the power of the purse. second of all, there was a law passed by congress in 1974, the impoundment control act, that basically says the president cannot refuse to spend or block money allocated by congress except in very narrow circumstances for a brief period of time. and third of all, the u.s. supreme court decided a case in 1975 that says, even without regard to that law, it's still unconstitutional. unconstitutional for donald trump to do what he's trying to do here. so we're going to see this move through the courts very rapidly. but ultimately, i think trump will lose. i think the courts will say, you cannot do this, gretchen. >> it's interesting because this is the kind of action that wouldn't just impact people who didn't vote for president trump. it would be his supporters as well. >> yeah. look, i think a lot of people speaking from an american voter perspective, not a legal perspective, they are interested in getting rid of government fraud and government waste, but maybe not in this way. i think people thought that doge was going to come in and maybe do some analysis, and then over

time, issue some of these pauses. i don't think people who voted for trump expected their grandparents to be cut off from meals on wheels tonight. i mean, that's crazy. we're talking about homeless veterans programs that suddenly low income children not being able to get fed at school. i mean, these are affecting blue states, red states. the interesting thing to me and dan just touched on this, the congressman, what will republicans do in this situation? because you have a lot of nominees coming up for confirmation hearings right now. you already saw senator grassley come out against this inspector general situation. you have other republicans tonight saying that the jeffrey epstein files should be released where trump is named in them. is this the beginning where republicans are actually going to stand up to trump, or are they going to actually just 100% support him? >> shermichael i mean, should the white house be concerned about the confusion this has caused at the very least? >> i mean, look, i think maybe you could have rolled this out a little bit more efficiently and

effectively. and i would imagine that the white house is probably internally trying to figure out a way to do that so that you're not disrupting some of those urgent needs that americans rely on. that gretchen was referencing. with that said, i want to go back to the 74 act that ellie referenced in terms of the executive branch having to or being mandated to spend pre allocated funds from congress makes perfect sense. but i do wonder, anderson, if there is an argument that could be made. and ellie, maybe you can answer this. could the executive argue, well, the national debt is not in the national interest in terms of our defense. and by virtue of that, maybe if congress isn't doing its job in terms of reeling down that debt, then maybe the executive needs to step in and figure out a way to curtail it, because, again, it's not in the nation's best interest. i don't know if that would pass the smell. >> test this white house, but. >> it's certainly an. >> argument to me. the national debt, like the last administration and the last time they were in power, didn't seem like the debt was top of the list. can they really make that argument?

>> oh, i think so, anderson, because i think millions of americans expect donald trump. he partially ran on this, that he would strengthen the u.s. economy and a part of strengthening the u.s. economy is controlling our spending. you don't want debt, waste, fraud and abuse ongoing. the american people work very diligently and hard for their money, and the expectation is when those dollars are taxed and sent to washington, that they're allocated in an appropriate way, and that we know where every single dollar is expensed. >> yeah. look, shermichael does a good job of stating that argument, but it won't fly legally. it's a fine policy argument. it's fine for the white house to say we want to reduce costs. we want to reduce the debt, but that doesn't override a law or the constitution itself. if it did. imagine if it did. any president could say, well, i have a better idea. i have a better idea about how we should spend our money, or how we should draft our policy. therefore, to heck with article one of the constitution. so that's a better way of framing it. that shermichael just offered not exactly what the actual white house has said, but but i don't think it's a winner in court. >> the question here is the urgency and the chaos that has

been created. i mean, shermichael brings up some great points, but why didn't they do this over a couple of weeks and not just automatically send this letter out? that is what has created this chaos. and quite honestly, i believe that this is donald trump disrupting to see how far he can go over the line. how far can he go without pushback. and, you know, look, we have to believe everything that he said he was going to do. and within the first week, he's doing it. >> shermichael do you think there are many republicans who will actually stand up about this in congress and push back? >> well, look, i think congress, you know, likes to protect itself as being an independent body of the executive. and i would imagine some will use her like, hey, we have autonomy here. you know, we hold the purse strings, if you will. we set the budget. we dictate what should be expensed by each of these federal agencies. but again, i do think that there is an argument to make from the executive to congress, this republican controlled congress, i might add, that 30 plus trillion dollars in debt is not

in the national interest of this country. in the immediate or in the long term. so if we're if we are going to appropriate funds, can we at least tie some type of cost savings effort to the expense of those funds? and we haven't seen that thus far. and i would hope, anderson, that many of the quote, unquote, fiscally conservative members of congress would at least entertain that argument. >> yeah, sure. michael. gretchen liu, thank you very much. appreciate it, everyone. coming up, a kennedy family feud bursts into the open. caroline kennedy calls her cousin rfk jr.. a predator pleads with the senate to block his confirmation as america's public health chief. more on the family secrets she revealed today in her own words. plus, president trump threatens the future of a crucial public health program championed by one of the country's most prominent republicans and heralded as a global success that has saved tens of millions of lives. could that soon be gone forever? that's ahead. >> they want to take this place from us. >> where are you headed? >> montana family needs me.

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dude, i really need a new phone. check out my new samsung galaxy s25 ultra. it's got galaxy ai. imagine this thing running on our superfast xfinity mobile network. and i also heard that it can do multiple things with a single command. —with google gemini. let me try it. add recipes with overripe bananas to my “dessert ideas” note. that's what you chose to ask it? i had other things planned. ask how to get up to one thousand dollars off the new samsung galaxy s25 ultra with xfinity mobile. patented retinol formula, 97% had lines filled instantly and deep wrinkles reduced in four weeks. it's clinically proven. >> the source with kaitlan collins tonight at nine. >> an unprecedented attack today from arguably the most prominent living member of the kennedy family against her slain uncle's namesake son. caroline kennedy, the only surviving child of president john f kennedy, slammed her cousin, robert f. kennedy jr., as deeply troubled and unfit to be confirmed as president trump's

secretary of health and human services. miss kennedy, who until recently was the u.s. ambassador to australia, described her concerns in a letter to some of the senators set to question rfk jr. beginning tomorrow. she also delivered her message direct to camera i've known bobby my whole life. >> we grew up together. it's no surprise that he keeps birds of prey as pets, because bobby himself is a predator. he's always been charismatic, able to attract others through the strength of his personality, his willingness to take risks and break the rules. i watched his younger brothers and cousins follow him down the path of drug addiction his basement, his garage, his dorm room were always the center of the action where drugs were available, and he enjoyed showing off how he put baby chickens and mice in a blender to feed to his hawks. it was often a perverse scene of despair and violence. >> arlette saenz joins us now with more. is there any

indication caroline kennedy's letter will have an impact? >> well, anderson, it's unclear whether this letter and video message from caroline kennedy will sway any senators votes. but the goal here is not just only to get republicans to the no column, but also to ensure that democrats remain united in opposition heading into votes. now, in this lengthy video message, she read aloud the letter that she sent to senators, where she talked about why she thinks that her cousin, robert f. kennedy, is unfit, including a past troubling behavior accusing him of having a hypocritical stance on vaccines and being addicted to attention and power. but then she also got very personal in her criticism, saying that kennedy has been using their family's political legacy for his own political gain. take a listen. >> we are a close family and none of that is easy to say. it also wasn't easy to remain silent last year when bobby expropriated my father's image

and distorted president kennedy's legacy to advance his own failed presidential campaign. and then groveled to donald trump for a job. bobby continues to grandstand off my father's assassination and that of his own father. it's incomprehensible to me that someone who is willing to exploit their own painful family tragedies for publicity would be put in charge of america's life and death situations. >> now, caroline kennedy had been reluctant to criticize robert f. kennedy as she was serving as ambassador to australia. even as many in her own family had emerged with criticism as he had launched his presidential campaign. but today, in that video message, she said that she could simply not stand by in this moment. another remarkable family fissure within the kennedy clan that we've seen surfaced in recent years. >> and what does tomorrow look like for the first day of rfk jr.'s confirmation hearings?

>> yeah, this video message and letter comes on the eve of the very first confirmation hearing for robert f. kennedy jr.. he will appear before the senate finance committee. there will be a second hearing on thursday, and republican senators are saying that they want to see some public commitments from kennedy on a few issues. they want to hear where exactly he stands on vaccines. after expressing some skepticism about vaccines over several years. and then there's also the issue of abortion. senator joni ernst, she's not on either of these committees, but she said that she wants to see public commitments for him and have him lay out where he stands on the issue of abortion after in the past, he had supported access to that procedure. we have also seen a group that was backed by former vice president mike pence, who is now using an ad of president trump criticizing kennedy specifically as they are trying to push some of these concerns about abortion going forward. so all of these are issues that are expected to come up in these hearings, which will set are set to kick off tomorrow. >> yeah. arlette saenz appreciate it. now to the world

health organization, which is sounding the alarm over president trump's 90 day freeze on almost all foreign aid. one of the programs in jeopardy is the president's emergency plan for aids relief, which provides life saving medicine to tens of millions of people worldwide or has for years, and was started by george w bush. now, a lot of people, experts warn even a temporary pause in aid could have a profound negative effect. the w.h.o. writes, quote, a funding halt for hiv programs can put people living with hiv at immediate increased risk of illness and death and undermine efforts to prevent transmission in communities and countries. the statement goes on to say, quote, for the global community, this could result in significant setbacks to progress in partnerships and investments in scientific advancements that have been the cornerstone of good public health programing. my next guest was appointed to lead global health for the u.s. agency for international development by president biden. he resigned before president trump took office. doctor atul gawande joins me now. doctor gawande, i appreciate you being with us. when you heard funding

for pepfar was in jeopardy. and at the very least, is being paused, what impact is that going to have? because my understanding is if you pause, if you stop giving hiv medication to people who need it to stay alive, their virus can come back and mutate. >> yes, this is important. there's no such thing as a pause of health programs or of other kinds of life saving assistance. it's like saying there's a pause in a plane that's mid-flight. it's a shutdown, and it has harmful consequences from straight off the bat. now, recognize this is a stoppage of all. virtually all work at the u.s. agency for international development. this is the cornerstone of our soft power in the world. and and the pepfar program is just one example. the stopping these drugs means that there are 20 million people who live with hiv who who don't get

access to medication at a critical moment. but then also there are people with tb, there's maternal and child health programs. there are the global programs that we are jointly partnered with other countries in w.h.o. on for eradicating polio, stopping malaria and other critical ventures. >> and by the way, this is one. >> of the important. >> this is one of the great success programs of modern times. i mean, the eradication of polio, the the the saving the lives of more than 20 million people who very likely could have died from, if they ultimately got aids. you talk about this as soft power. what people may not understand what that means. you know, this is not trying to influence policy. you know how people in africa think about the u.s. through military involvement. this is giving life saving medication, and it it does impact the way people view the u.s. in a

very good way. >> absolutely. another example that this program, the things that are paused right now, this is vaccine trials for hiv vaccines, programs for 6.5 million orphans and vulnerable children with hiv and their caregivers. now, these are programs that are bringing countries to self-reliance on taking care of themselves. we've seen south africa now covering 85% of the drug costs as they become middle income. we've seen countries completely transition off, so it isn't forever. plus, these teams are rolling out treatments right now. u.s. has the u.s. has has a new innovation, an injection for hiv that stops the disease for six months with a single shot. this is the pathway to ending hiv. so now giving the signal that you're pausing not just all the hiv work, but all health work in

global partnership around the world and all other forms of the foreign assistance. that is an enormous setback. and those those organizations are being told, you know, you can't even pay staff if there are drugs on the shelf. you can't take them off the shelf and give it to folks. there is a waiver this evening that the state department has suggested may apply to this, and i think that's good would be good news if the they're actually listening and said saying we need to roll back after all. and they're willing not to take these. >> kinds of and also just i mean, you know, we've all seen that zoonotic viruses, viruses that can kill people are just a plane ride away from the united states. so it's not as if what is, you know, an ebola outbreak in, in, in, you know, congo doesn't have or a monkeypox outbreak doesn't have an impact in the united states.

>> yeah. we saw as recently as 2018 that an ebola outbreak could end up reaching across borders and killing what ended up being more than 2000 people right now in the in in the congo, there's not only military unrest, there is reports now of an outbreak that has killed an ebola that has killed eight people. the teams that i used to lead are simply unable to respond. they're not allowed to even speak to w.h.o. at this point. gather information sharing, let alone respond. now that this is critical work that needs to be sustained. >> doctor gawande, i appreciate all you've done. thank you. coming up next, the story of a texas woman building a retreat on her property to support newly pardoned january 6th offenders. and coming up, the unsolved killing of jonbenet ramsey, which shocked the nation back in

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january sixers. so you are building basically small homes? >> yes. >> so there are about 300ft÷ and will ultimately build five of them. there's not very many people that get a second chance at life. >> for cud. this is very personal. she was sentenced to two months probation for entering the capitol on january 6th. >> we did. break down the, um. nancy pelosi's office door. i had death threats for two years. i had over 1001 star reviews on my business. >> card, has raised more than $50,000 for the project. >> the j six road home project is a comprehensive healing program, so we already have in place a national telehealth network, and then we have jobs lined up all over texas that are just waiting for these guys to get here. >> one of the pardoned january 6th convicts arrived while we were there.

>> it is. >> don hazzard was part of the patriot boys of north texas militia. >> i'm glad to meet you. you too. welcome. >> he was sentenced to almost five years in prison for his role in january 6th. >> make sure you get my face and everything on your news channel. >> among the charges was assaulting police. >> i want the enemy to know exactly who's coming after them. >> until trump's pardon, hazzard had been in federal custody for more than three years. >> man, it's nice out here. i like it. >> i'll have that bathroom. will be back there, and this will be like a little kitchenette. and then the bedroom. >> nice. man, i love that smell of fresh lumber. >> after his release, he drove here to texas. you're a free man now. >> total freedom. total freedom. i mean, i got my rights back. you know, i was able to go in a gun shop the other day, right when i got back to texas and

check out some firearms and whatnot, you know, without feeling like i was doing without doing something against the law. i'm interested in starting a business and something successful. >> do you regret january 6th at all? do you wish you didn't go. >> the only regrets that i have at all about what i did was just got outsmarted by the left. it was a total setup. it was a trap, and we walked right into it. we did exactly what they wanted us to do. >> the january 6th attack was not a setup, but many of the january 6th convicts that i've spoken to say they believe it was because they think they were set up. they don't have remorse or regret for what they did on that day. so you pled guilty, right? >> i did, but. uh, i mean, i was blackmailed into it. i resisted arrest. you know, they charged me with an assault charge carrying up to 20 years. it's way, way overkill.

>> you had, i think, pushed a police officer who was then knocked unconscious. >> that's not really what happened. i tried to go up some stairs. okay. they caught me. they pretty much beat me up, as far as i could tell, and then shoved me back down the stairs. i don't think any of us were fairly charged. none of us got a fair shake in court. federal judges, prosecutors, i think they're all guilty of treason. >> do you think there should be retribution? >> most definitely. i think so. i mean, most definitely, i think so. >> you got your dad, your granddads, your uncle, all military. >> all military. my father in law. my cousin. >> so this is the wall of heroes? >> yes. and it's growing more and more day by day. and now i'm going to get a giant picture of outside of the u.s. capitol on january 6th, and put that up on the wall of heroes. >> but a lot of people right now would look at the other people

you have on this wall, people who were part of january 6th. i'd say, no, they're not heroes to you. they are. >> absolutely to me. they are, because they were willing to stand up for their country and do what they believed was right. and most of them lost everything. so yes, to me, they're heroes. >> and donie o'sullivan joins us now. it seems like the pardons have certainly emboldened a lot of a lot of these people. >> absolutely. as you heard in that piece there, i mean, don hazzard. um, it's and it's a familiar tale for most of these guys. you know, they pled guilty, but now they say this that was a setup, or they had to take that deal. >> to me, that they're all saying that they were lured in, that these guys who, you know, some many have military training, were somehow tricked and lured in by unnamed people. >> on the left. antifa, nancy pelosi, black lives matter, you know, name whoever you want. and you know, i pushed him a bit on that. and and it's

hard to know whether these guys truly, really believed that because, i mean, they were there that day. you know, they're smart people. i mean, yeah. >> not easily tricked. i don't think. >> yeah. um, and i think for whatever chance there might have been for reflection or expressing remorse and of course, a lot of these people to get their plea deal had to, um, uh, express some regret in front of the judge. of course, afterwards, a lot of them also have pulled back on that. but i think whatever chance there was for learning from this moment, um, i think it went out the window, especially with all just how broad the pardons were. i mean, that was one thing. even speaking to this sort of j six community, how surprised they were at themselves that how broad it was. >> donie o'sullivan. thank you. appreciate it. coming up next, the father of jonbenet ramsey talks with our jean casarez about the decades old unsolved murder of his daughter and the request he's now making of investigators. and later, a preview of the final, the season finale of my podcast, all there is. i share the loss of one of the most important people in my life.

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>> 81 year old john ramsey says he is on a mission to convince boulder law enforcement to solve his daughter's 1996 murder, using cutting edge dna technology, genetic genealogy. >> i think it's the only way this case will be solved. the technology is there. we know. back in early 97, they sent a number of items to the lab for for sampling. a number of them were returned unsampled. we don't know why they weren't tested. >> what were those items? >> well, the garrote, the suitcase that was propped up under the window that had to have been moved there. there was a rope left in one of the bedrooms that wasn't ours. there was a backpack that was left in the bedroom. same bedroom that was not ours. >> what was in that backpack? >> don't know. i that was i didn't know it was there. i just saw pictures taken at the crime scene and i said, well, that's not ours. >> ramsey says he and his late

wife, patsy, were not given a lot of information about the investigation because for years they were the suspects until being formally cleared and apologized to in 2008. ramsey says forensics found on the very day that jonbenet's body was located in the family's basement needs to be tested or retested. >> they found an identified palm print that's never been tied to anybody. it was on the door, a little door leading to that room that that i found. jonbenet's body in. >> but to ramsey, it is one hair that could be critical. >> we have an unidentified pubic hair that was found in the blanket that was wrapped around jonbenet. we know that for a fact that to me, offers a huge hope for solid dna result that could be put in the right format and do

genealogy research. that's perhaps the most important piece of evidence we have. >> john ramsey has a message. if someone out there is holding information. >> please help us i'm not vindictive. i just want an answer. >> if patsy could talk to investigators right now, what would she say? >> patsy was probably the kindest person i've ever known. but she was. she was strong and she had a, you know, been pointing fingers and say, do this, do this. now. >> you also represent jonbenet, the victim. victims deserve justice. >> yes they do. and the victims family deserves that. this affects my nine year old son at the time, burke, who's now an adult, he's been accused. he continues to be accused by the internet crazies that he's the

killer. he's got to be the killer. everybody knows it. and that bothers him. it's not going to change my life at this point, but it will change the life of my kids. that's why i want to get it solved. >> john ramsey told me that 6 to 8 months ago, he gave a very specific list to law enforcement of what he believes should be tested and retested. now, he tells me following this meeting, he believes officials are committed to this investigation. boulder's police chief recently said there are approximately 2500 pieces of evidence. jean casarez, cnn, new york. >> coming up next, a preview of the final episode of my podcast for this season, all there is. i'll introduce you to one of the most important people in my life. >> since starting. >> the farmers. >> dog, bogart has lost so much weight and he has so much more energy. it's like a puppy.

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podcast on grief, all there is posted. you can find it pointing your phone's camera at the qr code you see on your screen right now, and then click on the link. it's also available wherever you get your podcasts. in this episode, i share some of the more than 6000 deeply personal voicemails that i received from listeners about their grief, and i listened to all of them. i also share the loss of someone dear to me. here's a preview. i found a picture of a birthday party for my brother carter. in the background, there's this blurry image of one of the most important people in my life her name is mae mcclendon. she was my nanny from the time i was born until i was about 15. she was a mom to me. as important to me as my mom and my dad, and she still is, even though she died after a ten year struggle with dementia in 2014, mae was from scotland, near glasgow. she didn't suffer fools gladly, but she was funny and loving and our bond was extraordinary. my mom was hurt by the closeness of my

relationship with mae and one day she fired her without any warning. it was awful. mae and i remained extremely close for the next 32 years of her life. when she was around 80, mae started mentioning occasionally that she was taking care of a baby. then a couple weeks went by and i couldn't reach her on the phone. i got in touch with a local minister and asked him to check on her. he told me that mae had been found wandering on the street, disoriented. she was clutching a small ceramic dog wrapped in a blanket. turns out that was the child she'd been telling me about, the one she said she'd been caring for. the dog was a present i'd given her for her birthday when i was maybe 12 years old. there's one more thing the minister told me. the dog she was holding, the one she thought was a child. she thought it was you watching her decline, watching all the dreams i'd had of giving her a house or having her live with me when i had kids. one day, watching all that

disappear was like nothing i'd ever experienced when i'd visit. she. she still knew who i was, but she'd open her mouth and the only sound that came out was a single note, like she was singing. >> ah eventually that stopped as well. >> i got to see her shortly before she died. i sat with her, holding her, and i thanked her as i had a thousand times over the years. and i told her again what i told her every night before i went to bed. and every time i talked to her on the phone, i told her i loved. >> her. >> mae mcalinden died february 6th, 2014 at the age of 92. her death didn't make headlines. the world kept spinning, but for me on that. >> day. >> it stopped. of all the people

in my family who i've lost, i continue to talk with mae the most. when i hold my sons, when i dress them, when i put them in their cribs and i kiss them goodnight. it's her hands holding them. it's her eyes. i see them through. and i can feel her beaming with joy. mcalinden came into my life and showed me what love is. and that is what she has become in me. and a quick reminder you can listen to this season finale of all there is by pointing your phone's camera at the qr code on the screen right now. click on the link. it's also available wherever you get your podcasts. another way to access this season you can go to cnn.com/all there is online. i also want to thank everyone who left messages. there were more than 6000 of them. and as i said, i listened to