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at. rokov de. >> this is g.p.s., the global public square. welcome to all of you in the united states and around the world. i'm fareed zakaria coming to you live from new york today on the program, president trump announced 25% tariffs on canada and mexico and 10% on china. outgoing canadian prime minister trudeau retaliated with 25% tariffs on many american goods. i'll talk to chrystia freeland, canada's former finance minister, who is a front runner to replace trudeau as p.m. then what does it mean to be a jew today? after october 7th, after the war in gaza? peter beinart offers his perspective in a new book. and here on gps, also, artificial intelligence was atop the headlines again this week as a chinese company announced a stunning development. i'll talk to a linkedin co-founder, reid

hoffman, about the news and about how a.i. can actually improve all our lives. but first, here's my take. is this a sputnik moment? the world has reacted with astonishment to the release of a chinese a.i. model from deep seek, which appears to be able to perform as well in some cases better than chatgpt and other cutting edge models put out by u.s. companies. americans had assumed that their massive lead in funding, access to high quality chips and innovation would keep them well ahead. that assumption now looks like hubris. the episode does raise big questions in some ways much bigger than the ones raised by sputnik. sputnik, after all, was about the soviet government's space program versus that of the u.s. government. few thought that the soviet economy was, in general, more technologically advanced than america's. but deep tech is a private chinese company that

demonstrated its stunning prowess on the cheap in the most important technology for the future. there are all sorts of questions about just how much deep sek's model actually cost, whether it needed to use u.s. models for training, and whether there was any closet chinese government help. but given the enormous efforts that the united states has made over the last few years, chip bans export controls, et cetera.. deep sea has made a remarkable achievement. it suggests to me two lessons and two questions. the first lesson is that over time, open systems are likely to outperform closed systems. in a.i., an open system is like lego blocks with the instructions. a closed one is a built lego structure with the instructions kept secret. many have pointed out that deep sea used meta's open source llama model to train. it also used

quinn, a family of a.i. models. also open source, put out by the chinese technology giant alibaba. while deep sea is currently the best, china's big technology companies have been releasing a number of artificial intelligence models, mostly open source, that are getting better and better. if the history of technology is any guide, the ability to see the innards of these models and understand their reasoning should lead to greater and faster tech innovation than using closed models that others can't use for collaboration. second, constraints can be useful as intel's former ceo pat gelsinger has noted, just as art sometimes flourishes in repressive environments where restrictions force artists to be creative, so also engineers often operate best under constraints forced to use second tier chips, chinese engineers produced creative workarounds. that's not just

true with deep seek. in 2023, the chinese telecommunications giant huawei released a phone with a seven nanometer chip, a kind that had been explicitly banned by u.s. export controls. there is some evidence that after years of sclerosis, china's chipmakers have responded to american bans by becoming more innovative. in a fascinating recent interview, liang wenfeng, the ceo of deep seek, also argues that his engineers are more motivated by doing research than making money, and seems to contrast that attitude with the one prevalent in silicon valley, which is all about maximizing revenue, providing cloud services, generating cash flow. demis hassabis, who leads google's deepmind and won the nobel prize for its scientific breakthroughs, is said to have fought to keep his team in london far from silicon valley so that they can focus on basic research. the first question

that deep seek raises is can the u.s. stop china from advancing along the technology frontier? some argue that deep seek shows that export controls work. the model used many nvidia chips that were once cutting edge, but soon china will not have access to the best chips and will suffer more from the ban. but as we've learned with rounds and rounds of global sanctions on russia, the world economy is very large and porous. stuff gets through and china is not russia. it is a vast, technologically sophisticated economy with millions of software developers and hundreds of high quality firms in the technology space. human talent on that scale will find ways to innovate, even if the measures keep china slightly behind. the second question what is the cost of this approach? if technology bans and export controls at best keep china behind a year, maybe

just several months, is that gain worth the cost? the cost is chinese retaliation limiting america's access to key materials that it needs for high technology. more important, a decoupled global economy also creates a closed ecosystem in which american technology companies will not face competition from the best. is tesla going to innovate at the highest levels if it is not facing its strongest chinese rival? and finally, a technology decoupling means that a.i. will become the central part of a new global arms race, totally unregulated and unconstrained. as the world's two largest economies hurtle towards superintelligence, no holds barred and incorporate it into all military applications, including nuclear weapons. if artificial intelligence is as revolutionary a technology as we

think, it might end up being, having it unleashed in every realm of human life with absolutely no guardrails points to a scary future, one far more dangerous than anything people imagined because of the sputnik satellite. go to cnn.com. slash, fareed, for a link to my washington post column this week. and let's get started. yesterday, president trump ordered tough new tariffs on america's top three trading partners china, mexico and canada. its northern neighbor was hit with a 25% tariff on all exports to the u.s., except for a lower 10% rate on energy and oil. hours later, canada's prime minister justin trudeau responded with a 25% levy on many american goods, solemnly saying, quote, we didn't ask for

this, unquote. joining me now is chrystia freeland. she served as canada's deputy prime minister and finance minister under trudeau until she resigned in december. her move helped bring down trudeau's premiership. she's now one of the frontrunners to replace him in upcoming party elections. chrystia freeland, pleasure to have you on. so donald trump says thank you. donald trump says that the reason he's doing this, this is, you know, the ask and this is the justification, is the fentanyl trade, the the fentanyl that is coming in from canada and mexico. the bizarre part about this is not a lot of fentanyl comes into the united states from canada. i mean, i think the latest numbers we have, it's, you know, 43,000, 43 pounds coming out of canada. and 21,000 pounds coming out of mexico. so what you've negotiated with donald trump

before over the the nafta renewal renegotiation. why is he doing this to canada? what is what is the motivation? it can't really be fentanyl. >> you're absolutely right, fareed. the pretexts are utterly ludicrous. this action is utter madness. it is a betrayal of america's closest friend of your ally, your neighbor, your best partner in the whole world. it is an act of economic warfare. and the president was clear just this morning that it is a direct attack on our sovereignty. and i have to tell you, fareed, americans are going to be astonished by the canadian response. we're hurt, for sure, because we're your friends and neighbors. but most of all, we're angry, and we are united and resolute. you know, canada

is the true north, strong and free. we love our country and we are united. we are strong. we're smart. we're going to fight for our country. we're going to fight for canada, and we're going to be successful. >> so let's put a little bit of of substance on that. you know, you're a much smaller economy than the united states. 75% of your exports come to the united states, whereas i think the other way around is like 12%. um, this year, there's only so much you can do to retaliate with an economy that much larger than yours. so how do you do it in a way that's effective? >> well, first of all, we have more leverage than americans think. canada is the largest market for the united states, larger than china, japan, the uk and france combined. and we know americans. we know that for you guys, the customer is always right. we're your biggest customer. doesn't make a lot of

sense to be punching us in the face. the second thing, fareed, is you know very well is america's tariffs are self-harming. you know, by putting tariffs on the stuff that canada sells you, you are going to hurt americans. you have put a tariff. you're putting a tariff on the oil and gas that we sell you. that is going to make prices at the pump. prices at grocery stores a lot higher. and the final thing, fareed, is this matters to us so much more than it matters to you. our very sovereignty is at stake. you are seeing a phenomenal, united and resolute response across canada. and for americans. does this really matter to you at all? i mean, do americans wake up in the morning and say, wow, we got to beat up on those canadians? i don't think so. i think americans actually recognize that we are a great partner, a great neighbor,

a great friend, that this is ridiculous. it is not worth americans suffering over this. as the prime minister said, we do not want this conflict, but we're not going to give in. >> stay with us. when we come back, i'm going to ask chrystia freeland, does this mean that countries like canada, mexico will find new markets and new alliances in places like china? when we come back? >> fareed zakaria gps, brought to you by fisher investments. clearly, different money management. >> we just want to have enough. >> money for retirement. >> and travel to visit. >> our grandchildren. >> i understand. >> that's why. >> at fisher. >> investments we. >> start by getting to know each. >> other so i can learn about. >> your. >> family, lifestyle. >> goals and. >> needs. allowing us. >> to tailor your portfolio. >> what about commission. >> based products?

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trudeau's government and now a frontrunner to take his job. um, chrystia freeland, when you look at this situation where the united states is basically levying tariffs on its closest allies, particularly canada, really its oldest ally, um, does it make you think canada is going to have to make its way in the world and find new new markets and new friends? and of course, china, the second largest economy, comes up when one thinks about this. >> fareed, we have so many friends and even family members in the united states. our preference and our hope is that you guys are going to come to your senses. our preference and our hope is that we can go back to a win win. north american partnership. i mean, currently, our trade should be governed by the usmca, which we negotiated with president trump when we signed that deal, he said it was the best trade deal ever. so

what we really want is for all the americans who are listening to say, what the heck is going on? you mean we're fighting with the canadians? and to get back to a reasonable, mutually beneficial relationship, that is our preference. >> and when you have thought about this thing you've talked about, uh, you know, 100% tariffs on some things, you talked about a boycott of american goods, which would be not a formal legal thing, but you're just urging canadians to stop buying american goods when they go to grocery stores. um, and is it also are you also thinking in your proposals of doing something on oil? you know, we import a lot of oil from canada. >> fareed, i'm glad you mentioned the boycott because that is already happening across the country. americans have to understand how hurt and frankly, how furious canadians are. our sovereignty is being challenged.

and so, yeah, regular canadians across the country are coming up with ways to stand for canada, to fight for canada, to defend canada, but mostly to say to our american neighbors, guys, just cut it out. just stop it. this is a terrible idea. and yes, we are going to use all the tools in our toolbox. you mentioned a little bit earlier how the united states depends on china for critical minerals and metals that you need, for semiconductors, that you need to build electric vehicles. well, guess who also produces those? canada. you depend on us for a lot and we are happy to work together. but it's got to be a two way street. >> so you did negotiate with trump. and so you do have a sense of him. and i'm wondering, you know, what do you think is going on? because the fentanyl reasoning, you know, is plainly not not important. you know canada, i think sends 0.002% of the fentanyl that that mexico

sends that passes through mexico. it's all really coming because of american demand for it. but he then talked about making canada the 51st state, um, which obviously again, not going to happen. what is he doing? what in your view what is he trying to do? >> look, that is, of course, a question first and foremost for the president. you're totally right, fareed, that the pretexts for beating up on canada are totally ludicrous. i think we all do know one thing about president trump. the one thing he respects is strength. and if he sees weakness, if he smells weakness, he pushes harder and harder and harder. and so what you are going to see what america is going to see, what the world is going to see from canada is total strength, total unity, and a very smart surgical

strategic approach. >> now you're you're you're an economist of sorts. you're a very distinguished career as a writer and economics, when you look at where we are, you know, a trade war between the united states and its closest ally, possibly the peterson institute says that this could produce inflation in the united states on a fairly significant scale. i think they have a chart that shows that it could go up three, 4%. um, does that does that leave you thinking we're entering a, you know, a kind of a much less prosperous world? because, i mean, economics is meant to be about win, win, not win lose. this almost feels like lose, lose because both economies, the u.s. and canada will be worse off after all this. >> look, you're totally right. the path the u.s. is on right now is a lose lose path. and at the end of the day, you cannot defy the laws of economics.

you're exactly right to say the people who are going to suffer from this the most are americans, including the americans who voted for trump. i mean, the president has decided now to make gas in the united states more expensive. he's decided to make groceries in the united states more expensive. and our retaliation is going to cost americans jobs that it's completely ridiculous. we do not want to do this. and the right thing for americans to do right now is to kind of shake their heads and say, guys, the canadians actually are great partners. they're great neighbors. let's not do this because i want to tell you, canada is formidable. we are resolute. we are determined. we know what we're fighting for. we don't want to have this fight, but we are not going to lose it. >> and finally, crystal, let me ask you, you're very well plugged in to many north american american ceos and a lot of the production that takes

place, car production, for example, is completely joint. i mean, these these products, auto parts go back and forth across the border. it's all kind of assembled in a north american supply chain. are you hearing from them? because this is the business community seems to be crucial here. are you hearing from them that they're going to call up president trump or let him know that this is bad for business, bad for american businesses like general motors? >> i sure am. and, you know, as you know, a part in a car crosses the border 6 to 8 times before that car is finished. think about that. think about what a tariff war does to detroit. this is you know, yesterday was a terrible day for canada. it was a really black day for detroit. this is going to be a very bad day for the stock market, which we know the president cares about a lot. and we're already hearing, for example, from the united steelworkers, a really important constituency for the president.

they've come out already and said, let's not do this. this is a bad idea. it's a bad idea for workers. >> and we've got to leave it. we got to leave. >> it there. >> more. chrystia freeland, always a pleasure to have you. thank you. and we will be back. >> super man, the christopher reeve story tonight at eight on cnn. >> buying a car. >> is kind of a big deal. >> how do you know if it's the right car for. >> you. >> mhm. >> ooh. >> the most. >> steal ratings in. >> complete vehicle. >> history from car gurus. >> that's how boom. >> hungryroot is here. >> and i needed. >> it because my fridge is super empty. >> it's so easy to just whip together a quick, healthy meal. head to hungryroot. >> com for healthy groceries and simple recipes. plus get free veggies for life. >> now taxes is getting the turbotax app. and filing. >> your taxes yourself 100% free. >> if you didn't file with us last. >> year. now.

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israel have evolved over his lifetime, from avid support to unsparing critique. the book is called being jewish after the destruction of gaza a reckoning. let me begin by asking you, since we've known each other a long time, i knew you when you were what i think one would have called a tough jew. you know, you were somebody who believed in a very, very militant israel. um, what changed? and when did it change? >> it began to change. the very first day that i spent with palestinians on the west bank, you know, i had gone to israel all my life. very important to me, very important to my family. i still love being in israel. it's a very special place to me. and the first day i spent time with palestinians in the west bank, i realized i knew almost nothing about what israel had meant to them, and that the conditions under which they were living were more brutal than i had been able to imagine. and when i faced that head on, it began a process that has led me to a place that i really would

not have expected. it leads me to an idea that many people in the jewish community and the american politics think is radical and outlandish, which is the idea that all people should be treated equally under the law, irrespective of their religion and ethnicity and race, which is the principle that we're struggling for in the united states, and that most american jews emphatically believe in in every country except for in israel, the very same american jews who think that israeli jews cannot possibly be safe unless they rule in israel, in a jewish state, are placing our own children's safety, betting it on the principle of equality in the law here. and you know what? we are safer than jews in israel. israel is the most dangerous place for a jew to live of any large diaspora community. and i think that's because when you deny people their basic rights, you inflict tremendous violence on them, and that violence endangers you as well. israeli jewish political culture has become accustomed to supremacy, illegal supremacy over palestinians is simply

taken for granted, and it is equated with safety. that is, supremacy means safety, which is the same way that white south africans felt during apartheid, the same way that white southerners felt during jim crow, the same way that protestants felt in northern ireland. the argument of this book is to those people to say, look at those other places people became safer when everyone got a voice in government, because when people have a voice in government, they don't need to take up arms to get the government to listen to them. >> you talk about the suffering in gaza, but what do you make of the event that precipitated that suffering? by which i mean the hamas attack? what and what does that tell you about palestinians willingness to live alongside jews? >> that was one of the darkest days of my life. it was a trauma that still hasn't healed, probably will never heal for for jews in israel, but also jews around the world. we still have on our refrigerator door the names of all the hostages. when we learn about them, we write whether they're still alive or whether they've been free. so there's no decent person can deny the horror of what happened. but one has to

understand the context in which it happens. one has to understand that understanding context is not justification, and you can't understand how to prevent future. october 7th without understanding the conditions in which palestinians live. that human rights watch called this an open air prison that the united nations says it said it was unlivable for human beings. they were penned into a ghetto half the size of new york city. they could never leave. and if you want to deal with that, with that violence, you have to deal with the structural oppression. unfortunately, throughout human history, people who are brutally oppressed have responded in inhumane ways. >> and when you talk about, you know, being jewish after the destruction of gaza, um, do you think there's something particular that, you know, how do you think what is the jewish obligation in witnessing this destruction? >> well, this is being done in our name by by a jewish state. and i think what has happened in the jewish world is that the state has become an object of worship. the state is treated as a god in many jewish

institutions in the united states and israel around the world. you are getting more trouble if you question the legitimacy of the state than if you question the authority of the torah and the existence of god. there's something fundamentally wrong here. and i talk in the book about what jewish tradition says about idolatry, which is the worship of anything that is created by human beings. when you say that a state has unconditional value, you are treating it as an idol. and so in the jewish world, we insist again and again, and american politicians, does israel have a right to exist as a jewish state? and my point is, the question should we be asking is, do the people who live under israeli control have a right to exist? it's the life of the children in gaza that we should consider of unconditional value. and then you ask, is the state doing a good job of protecting that life? and if not, maybe the state should be rethought. >> as a jew, as a religious jew, you are in a lonely place, right? i mean, i'm assuming that this argument is not easily received. and so you're not

going to synagogues and talking about this, are you? are you do you have platforms? >> um, not as many as i would like. you know, nobody likes a turncoat, a traitor, especially in a, in a, you know, in a people that imagines ourselves as a family, as i am, as think of us and as a, as a, as a group of people who've suffered a lot and still lives with the trauma of october 7th, the ongoing trauma that exists in israel. but the thing that gives me hope is how many young american jews i hear from who say, i feel betrayed by our community. i was raised to believe that judaism believes in the infinite dignity and worth of all human life, and that we believe in fierce and open to debate. that's what they say it means to be a jew for them. and they say, i don't see that in our community. we need this dissent, loving dissent to be better versions of ourselves. >> on that note, peter beinart, pleasure to have you on. >> thank you. thanks a lot. >> all right. we are going to move from the tragic world of the middle east to technology of

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remain optimistic about the possibilities of this amazing new technology. tech entrepreneur and co-founder of linkedin, reid hoffman, has a new book out called super agency what could possibly go right with our a.i. future? i should note he's a founder of multiple a.i. ventures. he's also on the board of and an investor in many companies involved in a.i., including microsoft. um, so let me first ask you, deep sea, you and i have chatted you of a slightly different perspective than the one i described. tell me what you you know, what's your basic takeaway from the deep sea? uh, release? >> well, the principal thing, i think, in your excellent article that i agreed with was the fact that constraints do create good innovation opportunities. and that's one of the things that we should all in the world, including here in the u.s. and in silicon valley, be paying attention to is the constraints of training in a much more constrained environment. there will be lessons that come from that. we should learn those lessons as well. it doesn't

necessarily mean you want to adopt those constraints. it's like, well, do you want to run a race with like weights tied around your your ankles? you know, it makes you stronger in some cases, but not always great on the race. >> so let's talk about the heart of the book. um, people look at a.i. and there's a lot of fears about it. but what you want to remind us is the is the promise. so when you think about it, what is the principal upside? we should be thinking about with a.i. >> so the principal thing is it gives us superpowers and and what's great. and this is part of why super agency is when both you and i get the superpowers, we actually get more superpowers, not just the ones we get individually. so to think about what you can get with a.i., a medical assistant that's better than an average gp on every smartphone that runs for under $5 an hour, right? that is transformative. most people don't have access to a doctor at 11 p.m. some people can go to an emergency room. right. and so how do you make that happen? a tutor on every subject for every age. and then,

of course, part of the work transformation is, i think, within a very small number of years, when anyone deploys as a professional, they deploy with a.i. agents, helping them do what they're doing. that is part of the reason why we're in this cognitive industrial revolution and that thing that we're heading towards is super important. >> and when people hear this, they're going to think, okay, that's so great. what happens to the real doctors and nurses? and, and, you know, tutors. is it possible? you know, it feels like there's this bit of a contradiction. it's going to do all these things that human beings did, but there's going to be no unemployment produced by it. >> well, actually, i think there will be an all major technology transformations. there's transition points that are difficult. industrial revolution classic. let's try to do that smarter. so jobs will get transformed. i think a lot of them will transform by human, will be replaced by a human using a.i. but we can try to use a.i. to help that human being, the human who's using, you know,

a.i. for part of this. now, for example, take a doctor. sure, a gp like a medical assistant. and that's great. by the way, doctors, like most people, get like five minutes with their doctor and so forth. actually, if you walk into your doctor and the doctor says, hey, let your agent tell me what they've been talking to you about, oh, this is something oh, let's focus on this in terms of what we're doing. it's not, you know, human or machine. it's human plus machine in a lot of these cases. now that's there will be some replacement customer service, a bunch of other things that will happen. but those countries, those industries which embrace this will have the same massive increase that happened during the industrial revolution. >> why is it important that the united states stay ahead of china in the a.i. game? is this at some level going to be a little bit like the internet, where everyone's going to use it, and does it really make a difference? >> i think it's actually very important that we make

artificial intelligence, american intelligence, right. which is kind of the question of what are the values that are based on what is the norms, how does the standards, how is it adopted in the broad world? and it's one of the reasons i think we want to bring along a lot of the world in this. and by the way, that's part of what i agree with you about in your article about it's this is much more than a sputnik moment, because this is not just a yes. it's like, what is the global industrial, the cognitive industrial future look like? >> jensen huang, the ceo of nvidia, says that the rise of a.i. is going to be the revenge of the english major, that because a.i. does coding very easily, and what used to be the, you know, the great skill you wanted to have in the tech world was coding. his point is, now it's going to be prompting the a.i., which is a english skill. do you buy that that that actually, you know, the power has shifted in this way. >> uh, broadly, yes. although it's actually english. plus

coding concepts. so no longer is it oh, i'm an expert in c plus plus. and i know how to do memory management and all the rest of the stuff, because the a.i. agent can do all that. and part of the transformation that i was saying that in terms of the transformation of work is you and i and every professional will have an a.i. coding assistant on our pc, on our phone. and so when we're doing like, oh, i want to do this analysis of this issue and in world affairs, you can actually have it code up something specifically to do that analysis. and by the way, that will be part of how analysts work, how you interface with analysts. and so we will all have coding assistants is actually in fact part of the amplification of professional work. now, it's a colorful way to put it as the revenge of the english major. now, i do think that that question of how you think creatively and humanities is actually, in fact, an important thing to add in, but you're still going to need to be thinking about in patterns of data, in patterns of code, as part of how you do that. so that that mindset and skill set at an abstract level is still very

important. >> so you still need science and the liberal arts. >> exactly. >> which is what steve jobs always said. >> exactly. >> right. >> reid hoffman, pleasure to have you. >> on, fareed. always a pleasure. >> next on gps. is china ready for an escalating trade war with the united states? we'll hear from a chinese economist who says that beijing is in a far stronger position than people realize. >> super man. the christopher reeve story tonight at eight on cnn. >> at morgan stanley old school hard. work meets bold. >> new thinking. >> to help you see untapped possibilities and relentlessly work with you. to make them real. >> total beats. >> america's best selling beats brand, is available at walmart. total beats blood pressure support. >> soft chews. contain a key ingredient clinically shown to deliver two times better blood pressure support. take control of your health. head to walmart and get total beats blood

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him. >> closed captioning is brought to you by purple. greatest sleep ever invented. >> we've been out of. >> a job. >> that's because purple mattresses are made with patented gel flex grid technology. >> do not. >> go. >> to purple.com. >> do not visit a. >> purple store. >> president trump imposed 10% tariffs on china, which could bring about a major expansion of the trade war between the world's two largest economies. last week at davos, i sat down with qiu jin, an associate

professor of economics at the london school of economics. cajun, pleasure to have you. >> great to be with you, fareed. >> so you say that china is better prepared for a divorce with america than america. what do you mean by that? >> well, china has long been preparing for less exposure to the u.s., diversifying in all ways, not just in terms of trading partners investment, but also currencies and payment system. and whichever president comes around, that plan hasn't changed. in fact, the first time around, the trump tariff wars have set off this complete globalization frenzy among the chinese companies, 80 something percent of them have already implemented going abroad plans. >> so they're trying to create foreign markets that are not american and things like that. but still, there's a huge amount that they do sell to america. and the tariffs would hurt, right. >> the tariffs will hurt both countries. but you've seen

already a gradual kind of redirection of trade to other countries. in fact if you look at the ev solar panels and all these what they call new productive forces, very little of it is actually going to the u.s., but it's totally pushed them to embrace new opportunities and sign new trade deals and new trading partners. and in fact, after the first time around trump for global trade has actually expanded china's position in the world as a share of global exports has actually risen compared to before while u.s. is declining. so i think china's response is, while u.s. is, you know, kind of going back. they're going to open up as much as possible. so this is why premier li has repeatedly said unilateral opening up zero tariffs on the least developing countries. we should not underestimate the degree and the pace of fragmentation that is happening. multipolarity and the rise of economic blocs. we're already seeing the data, whether it's investment or trade, the kind of the nonaligned blocs with aligned blocs and their

interaction with each other. if you go around the world, you're asking the likes of brazil or asean countries, what are they saying? the same thing diversify. don't be at the mercy of the dollar or the u.s. financial system. >> what do you make of the efforts that president putin has made? xi jinping has talked about, which is to get get away from the hegemony of the dollar, that because the dollar is the international currency, almost 90% of transactions are done in dollars. it means the u.s. can levy sanctions. it can cut people out of the countries, out of the system. and obviously china, russia, even some other countries don't like that and want to escape it. so far, it's mostly been talk. is it more than that now? >> i think it's much more than that, whether it's quietly or not. so quietly building up this huge financial infrastructure that's enabled by technology, blockchain technologies, the channels of alternative payment systems, digital central bank currency that's actually happening at a much faster pace than we realize in that part of

the world. china has signed 40 with 40 countries bilateral swap agreements to settle in the local currencies. of course, these are marginal improvements. but you see the dollar slowly declining. and the fundamental question, even apart from financial sanctions, is that there's a dollar shortage in emerging markets. the size of gdp is growing massively. the demand for dollars is there. there's not enough liquidity. so now the interest rate is high. the the dollar is, you know, at a very high level. this actually has a huge financial implication on the developing countries who are all looking to diversify. >> so do you think the trump administration will be surprised at how resilient china is as it tries to put pressure on it? >> i think they will. i think, first of all, the resilience of china has been demonstrated to a certain extent. the economic challenges are primarily internally driven. exports have actually performed quite remarkably. the other countries not so much, not so resilient. china is not so opposed to a trump presidency, because they still see trump as somebody who

they can negotiate with, that there's room for negotiation and that there is some space to take the temperature down and to manage and maintain the relationship. they've emphasized repeatedly mutual respect. that's not a high price to pay for the gains. >> cajun, pleasure to have you on. >> great to be with you. thank you. >> thanks to all of you for being part of my program this week. i will see you next week. >> this part of my life. >> superman. crazy. just that simple little thing over the horse. >> chris wanted to change the world. >> people are literally walking. because of him. >> super man, the christopher reeve story tonight at eight on cnn. >> saving for retirement. >> was tough enough. >> and navigating. >> markets can. >> be challenging. >> at times. >> i understand that's. >> why at fisher. >> investments, we keep a disciplined approach with your. >> portfolio. >> helping you through the. market's ups and downs. >> what about communication?

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