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facing lawmakers for her confirmation hearing. and in moments, the senate will vote on another one of trump's cabinet picks, robert f kennedy jr., for health and human services secretary. and kash patel is facing a key test in his path to become fbi director. later this hour, defense secretary pete hegseth will hold a press conference in brussels after he ruled out ukraine joining nato, sending allies scrambling. but first, we begin with the firings that are upending the federal government right now as we speak. for the latest on this, we're joined now by cnn's rene marsh and alayna treene at the white house. rene, first to you. what do we know about who has been impacted so far? >> right. so, pamela, i mean, worth noting this is a new phase because up until now, we have just been talking about federal employees being placed on paid administrative leave. and now we're hearing about actual terminations. we've heard from union as well as members who have been impacted at both the department of education and small business administration. and as far as like who is

impacted, i can tell you just at the department of education alone, there are employees who are in the general counsel's office, the special education and rehabilitation services division, federal student aid division. all of these individuals have received notices saying that they're being terminated. and we got a hold of one of those termination letters. and this is just a portion of it. it says, quote, um, we are writing to inform you of your termination. the agency finds, based on your performance that you have not demonstrated, that your further employment at the agency would be in the public interest. again, we are in this new phase where it's not just paid leave, but now people are actually being terminated and this is all coming just one day after, you know, yesterday, this federal judge, uh, gave a win really, to the trump administration, um, denying labor unions request for the judge to halt their buyout plan, that the administration has been

offering. and we know so far some 75,000 federal employees have accepted the trump administration's buyout plan, which says if you resign now, you'll be paid through the end of september. 75,000. sounds like a lot of people, but keep in mind it's only a sliver. there are more than 2 million within the federal workforce, so still a lot of skepticism. >> on the table anymore, right? that offer. right. the trump administration. >> yeah. >> you can't do this anymore. now you're vulnerable to being fired. and we're seeing that take place right now, according to your reporting, elena, to bring you in, the new york times is reporting that elon musk's team is involved in 19 federal agencies. what are you hearing from the white house about the firings going on right now in some of these agencies? and what more could we see today? >> look, they are celebrating them, pamela, and i mean that with that new york times reporting, i'm expecting that number to grow. we know that what elon musk and the broader department of government efficiency doge, as they call it, wants to do, is have their hands in more than that in all of federal government and really

try to hunt down waste, fraud and abuse that they claim is permeating throughout the work the government workforce. now, just to get a little bit more into some of of the firings that broke down, because i want to underscore what she said. this is the first time we're actually seeing these people being fired since then. so far, it's really been about putting them on paid administrative leave. but now we're really starting to see these widespread layoffs. i want to add as well that this should not come as a surprise. we knew this was coming. we actually broke the story last week that they were planning to have these widespread layoffs. really, as soon as that deferred resignation or so-called buyout program ended, they were planning to have those layoffs begin immediately after that. as rene noted, that deadline was pushed because of the legal battles. but it did close last night, and now we're starting to see this. another thing to add as well is even though we're just starting to learn about some of these firings happening at the department of education and the small business administration, it's going to be further than that. so this is just the start, i think, of what we're going to see be really

sweeping layoffs that really permeates the entire federal bureaucracy. now, i also just want to get into some of what we've heard from elon musk himself on this one, is that he said that he wants to delete agencies altogether. i want you to take a listen to how he put it. >> we do need to. um, delete entire agencies as opposed to leave part of them behind, because if you leave part of them behind, it's easy. it's kind of like if leaving a weed, if you don't remove the roots of the weed, then it's easy for the weed to grow back. but if you remove the roots of the weed, it doesn't stop weeds from ever growing back. but it makes it harder. so. so we have to really delete entire agencies. many of them. >> now there you have musk gang, in his own words, that he doesn't want to leave some of these agencies, any part of them behind. the weed starts at the root. we know that they've already begun trying to do that with, for example, the consumer financial protection bureau. that's just one agency that they're looking to eliminate

altogether. so i think we're going to see much more of this in the coming weeks. pamela. >> all right. alayna treene rene marsh, thanks so much. so for more on this, randi weingarten joins us now. she's the president of the american federation of teachers, one of the largest teachers unions in the country. what are you hearing, randi, from your members who have woken up to these letters? >> um, so, you know, our members work in the field in schools. um, we don't have members that actually work at the department of education, but we have people like, for example, the head of all of career tech, ed, um, at the department of education. this is career tech month. so we were talking to her when she was put on leave. and she's the one who actually makes sure that the that school districts all across america have the money that they need for kids to become welders and for kids to have apprentice programs or for things like that. so what we're hearing is

just complete chaos. and frankly, a whole bunch of cruelty, because at the end of the day, um, you can make departments more efficient. and i'm not a big believer in bureaucracy, but this feels like, as elon musk said to you, evisceration. so here's a guy who has hundreds of millions of dollars of contracts from these departments, and he's not touching them. but what he's doing is really taking money from kids who really need it in the field. and these departments, yes, they can be much more efficient, but that's what the education department does. it gives out money to kids so you can feed them a decent lunch. so we can have, you know, tutors for reading. so you can actually help kids with math problems. that's what's going on right now. >> and to be clear on elon musk, we really don't know the scope of what exactly he's doing. he's been involved with 19 agencies. he does have some contracts in front of those

agencies, but there's not transparency. and when it comes to the funds, the trump administration says that it's going to go to locals, that the local officials know what's best for their community and the state. the the education department is no longer needed. that is what they say. why? why is that an issue for you? >> so look, spoiler alert, that's what happens now. i mean, education, if i can, if i can make one point to your listeners or viewers, education is run by states and localities. it's always been run by states and localities, but about 50 or 60 years ago, you know, lyndon johnson, who was one of those local teachers, his kids would come into his classroom without shoes on. they were really poor. and so when he became president, he said, look, let's actually level up instead of taking, you know, instead of actually trying to say to states and localities, you got to spend more, which,

you know, they should let's actually have federal dollars that help kids who are poor. let's actually have federal dollars that help kids who are disabled. let's actually have federal dollars. if career tech ed is important for that kind of things. so what the department of education does is it's a supplement that actually really helps kids. and if you ask any teacher in america and you say to them, title one, they're like, oh, my god, we need those funds to help kids. >> what do you say, though? um, to the republicans, the administration who argues, look, the department of education has been there. but when you look at the metrics like test scores, they are down across the board. um, and that is really concerning. and so what does the department of education actually doing if we're seeing these poor test scores and we haven't seen a rebound since covid hit. and as you well know, they they blame put a lot of blame on the

democrats and teachers unions for the way that that was handled. what do you say to that? >> so if you look across the world, what you're seeing is that places where you had fairly well off schools. you saw rebounds, places where you had really poor ventilation in schools or overcrowding schools. you don't see that rebound. and you also see as actually some conservative journalists said when these scores came out that things like social media have really hurt here. so i look at the scores around the world and what it's showing is, yes, we have to strengthen education. we have to make schools safe and welcoming places, and we have to do a lot more. career tech ed and project based instruction to make it engaging and relevant for kids. and that means, frankly, looking at the accountability processes that were put in place by george w.

bush, because we've seen a plateauing out since that happened before that happened in the late 19 in the in like 1980s, 1990s, you saw scores gallop up. so we need to do a lot of these things. but this is the point i'm trying to make. it's the it's it's what the federal department of education does is about helping the kids who need the most. we need those services. and frankly, i also think that we need federal intervention to have more career tech ed, to have more apprenticeships, to actually make sure that every young person in high school gets to make a choice between, do you want shop? do you want career opportunities in addition to college? that's what a federal role is. >> let me just just follow up with one question. as as this senate votes to approve linda

mcmahon to run the department of education and dismantle it, as trump himself said, that is taking place right now as this is taking place. um, what would be your message to her? what is the impact? for example, help us understand the impact of some of these firings happening right now. for example, the education department employee you referenced, what would happen, what's going to happen as a result of that? >> it's going to make it harder for teachers to teach and kids to learn. but on from 30,000ft. think about it this way for every parent in america, if the first thing that donald trump does is says, i'm taking away education opportunities, what does that say to kids? i'm doing it so that we can have more tax cuts for the wealthy. what does that say to kids and parents? make it more efficient. let's do more career tech ed. let's make sure we have more apprenticeships. let's make sure

we have safe and welcoming schools. there's a lot of things that we can do together. don't pull the rug out from under kids. we need to protect our kids and strengthen our schools. and so the symbolic value here says to people across america, they don't care about education. >> randi weingarten, thank you for sharing your thoughts, your perspective on this. we appreciate it. after the break, i'll get some reaction from republican congressman carlos gimenez. i'll ask him about the future of usaid as well. we'll be. >> back. >> welcome back. >> have i got news for you saturday at nine on cnn. cools and warms on each side. and all our smart beds adjust the firmness for each of you and now save 50% on the new sleep number. limited edition smart bed shop a sleep number store near you. >> like a relentless weed. moderate to severe ulcerative colitis symptoms can keep coming

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quote, lunatics. the former administrator is being grilled in a hearing that republican critics have titled the usaid betrayal. next hour, a federal judge will hear arguments on blocking the administration's efforts to shut down the agency. the lawsuit is filed by the agency's foreign service workers. it includes harrowing accounts from the democratic republic of congo and sworn statements. usaid workers describe chaotic departures because of these violent protests, they had to leave and a lack of essential guidance from a staff thrown into disarray. one usaid staffer told me that the what the administration has done just created a lot of uncertainty and chaos into this situation. joining us now is congressman carlos gimenez. he is a republican who represents florida, including part of miami-dade county. thanks for coming on, congressman. um, so i just want to start off by establishing you agree with many

of the cuts we're seeing so far to usaid, from what i gather from other interviews you've done. so so i want to put that aside. the specific cuts happening. um, do you believe the way the administration has handled the cuts, given the impact on its american staffers, is appropriate? >> well, look, i think that this this particular agency, uh, has lost its mission. and sometimes you have to really take it down to its basics and then start over again. and i think that's the that's what the administration is going to do. i am very confident that secretary of state marco rubio will put it back together again the way it should be, and that u.s. taxpayer dollars will be spent to, uh, to, uh, advance american interests on critical issues. and that's that should be and has been supposedly the the role of usaid. and it needs to get back to its core mission. >> so you say we should it needs

to be dismantled and rebuilt, essentially. um, i spoke at length to a usaid staffer last night just to better understand what's going on. and this staffer described massive anxiety amid this uncertainty, with staffers left to pay their own way, not knowing if they'll get reimbursed while also being labeled criminals by the administration, the staffer told me there, communicating and organizing on signal under pseudonyms, trying to figure out what is going on because they have no guidance from the u.s. government. they call it digital dunkirk. uh, these employees have been conducting the nation's businesses overseas, often in countries where anti-american sentiment is a threat. whether or not you agree with the mission that they're on, their government employees. do these workers not deserve the guarantee of a safe passage home and considerate treatment equal to their predecessors upon their return? >> well, i believe that they should be guaranteed a safe passage home. they're we're working for the u.s. government. and, yeah, we need to protect our workers. whether we agree with what we did, what they did, uh, or not. now, the folks that are saying that they're criminals or that we're saying

are criminals, or maybe folks that we're dishing out money after the president told them not to. uh, and so they were given direct orders not to and some of them are still, you know, putting money out, uh, in spite of what the president say, said, look, you may disagree with what the president, but there are other ways to disagree with him. don't disobey his orders. you want to go to the courts. you want to go through some other channel? fine. but don't just don't don't just, uh, disobey a direct order from the president. >> so. so just. >> and i see your point there about still putting the money out despite what the president said. but, of course, as you know, usaid is a congressional. mandated agency. and that that was money that was already appropriated. but you can make the point that, look, the president said what he said, and this is all being litigated as well. um, you know, just to follow up, you know, and you make the point that, look, they should be treated with respect. you had a pregnant woman who

said in this affidavit she wasn't given food for 12 hours upon her return and had to pay out of pocket for prenatal care upon her return. why is that acceptable? what do you think about that? >> i'm not sure that you know about the claim. i mean, a lot of people could be claiming a lot of things. all right, like i said, an. >> affidavit to the court. >> they should be treated with respect. uh, and they should be, you know, have safe passage back to the united states. if we have to pay for food, i don't know if that's part of our contract or not. uh, but again, they should be treated right. they should be treated with respect. we need to if there's part of a contract that says that we need to abide by, that we should follow what the contract says. but that doesn't mean at the end that they're going to keep their jobs. this agency, uh, lost its way, you know, lost focus on its mission. it needs to be reestablished, reconfigured so that we, our taxpayer dollars, american taxpayer dollars are directed in a way that advances america's interests. uh, and

and does that around the world. there are things that they did, which i agree with, but there are things that they did that i don't agree with. and i believe the majority of the american people don't agree with. we want to throw out what's bad, and we want to keep what's good and redirect some of that bad, you know, really badly spent money and to good causes. and i think that that's what senator marco rubio is going to do. >> and that's a fair desire. and i think a lot of americans want to see their taxpayer money going to good use. of course, it's up to debate what that looks like, right? it's going to vary person to person. um, your fellow republican colleague, representative michael mccaul, told my colleague manu raju that the administration's efforts to shutter usaid could lead to some really bad unintended consequences. i want to take a listen to this. uh. >> there will be problems if you have life saving medication and food tied up in the houston port, that's, you know, going to waste or 500,000 metric tons on the ships on the seas where it

can't go anywhere. uh, that sort of defies common sense. >> what do you say to that? i mean, administration is making, you know, efficiency and common sense, central tenets to the government. do you think it makes sense to let millions of dollars in medications and food spoil on ships in the name of this effort? >> uh, no, it doesn't make sense. and that's why i believe that senator marco rubio is going to get on it as soon as he can and make sure that the unintended consequences of this action are abated as, as quickly as possible. look, when you take an action like this, always there's going to be some some collateral damage. all right. and so, uh, that's why again, i have confidence in senator marco rubio is going to straighten, you know, straighten this ship out, uh, and get it going as quickly as possible. i don't disagree with, uh, with my colleague from texas. uh, but again, when you do when you take action like this in such a large agency. yeah, there's going to be some things. oh, wow. hey, we didn't think about that. let's fix that right away. but we need to fix this agency so we don't

have to do this again for a while. >> so do you think, though, that that should. >> have been taken into consideration before they did this? >> you know, but there are so many things. uh, pam, and every, every agency, there are thousands and thousands of things that are happening that are being funded. et cetera. you couldn't possibly say and take care of every single one. there's always going to be something that's going to slip through the cracks. so again, as these things are being brought forward, i it is my hope that the administration fixes it as quickly as possible. gets those ships sailing again, makes sure that those vaccines and medications don't spoil because then again, that would be a waste of taxpayer money. and so i would hope that that's what happens. but i'm not the president of united states and i'm not in the administration. i just know what i would do if i were in that position. >> well, you are, but you. >> you have an important position as a member of congress, legislative branch, co-equal branch of government. i want to ask you about the president's immigration crackdown. you you were speaking out now in defense of law-abiding venezuelans who are

losing their u.s. temporary protected status and facing possible deportation. when i had you on the show last time, you were fully in favor of the immigration crackdown, and you believed at that time your constituents wouldn't be impacted, it seems that has changed. >> yeah, it has a little bit. it has. and so i wrote a letter to the secretary of homeland security saying that. look, uh, while all. de aragua members are, are venezuelan, not all venezuelans belong to the aragua. and so it needs to be nuanced. you may you may take away tps, but that also needs to be nuanced. and now i understand i know that those that were under tps are going to have to find some other mechanism, asylum, et cetera. i also disagree with the notion that somehow, uh, the things have gotten better in venezuela. they haven't gotten it better. and so that was one of the premises as to why you took away tps. look, in my county, miami-dade county, it's different than than the migrants, the venezuelan migrants that are in new york or chicago. they're not in hotels. they're not on the streets.

they've been assimilated into the community. they're working. uh, and so we don't have the same problems that they have across the nation. when you take a broad stroke and you paint everybody the same way, then you have these issues. and when i see that, hey, this is outside those lines, then it's up to me as a congressman to represent my constituency. but also, you know, tell the president, hey, look, you may want to do this in a different way because, yes, you want to get rid of the criminals. you want to get. you want to deport all those that deportation orders. but you know what? there's people here that have a good reason to be here. they're working in this, in this country. and let's see if we can find a way around that so that, yeah, the bad are taken back. the ones have deportation orders are taken back. but there are other folks that really do have fear of repercussion when they go back to venezuela or cuba, et cetera. and those people should be treated a little bit differently. >> all right. congressman carlos gimenez, thank you for coming on. >> it's my pleasure. >> linda mcmahon, trump's pick

for education secretary, is speaking at her hearing. let's listen. >> companies need high skilled employees. our workers deserve more post-secondary pathways. career aligned programs, apprenticeships and on the job learning and jobs in tech, skilled trades and health care for non college degree holders. those who do it college deserve transparent costs and courses of study aligned to workforce demand. the united states is the world leader by far in emerging technologies like a.i. and blockchain, and we need to invest in american students who want to become tech pioneers. we should encourage innovative new institutions to develop smart accountability systems and tear down barriers to entry so that students have real choice, and universities are not saddling future families with insurmountable debt. we must protect all students from discrimination and harassment. and if i am confirmed, the department will not stand idly by while jewish students are attacked and discriminated

against. it will stop forcing schools to let boys and men into female sports and spaces, and it will protect the rights of parents to direct the moral education of their children. the opportunity before us these next four years is momentous. i look forward to working with the committee, our nation's parents, teachers and students, and education leaders from all political perspectives to build a better future for every american learner. thank you so much for the opportunity to speak with you today, and i look forward to your questions. >> thank you very much. i shall begin. um. everybody is rightly focused on the fact that we have. >> all right. you just heard linda mcmahon's opening speech there. she has been tapped by president trump to lead the department of education and dissolve it, essentially. so a very unique situation here with this hearing on capitol hill, you see senator cassidy speaking right there. coming up, we're keeping an eye on two consequential votes on president trump's cabinet pick, kash patel and rfk jr.. up next, i'll

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plus, ask how to get the new samsung galaxy s25+ on us. 800) 651-0200 coventry direct redefining insurance. >> i'm oren liebermann at the pentagon and this is cnn. >> breaking news. it is a critical morning for two of president trump's most controversial nominees. the fates of robert f. kennedy jr. and kash patel are in the hands of lawmakers now, and in moments, the senate will vote on confirming kennedy as the next secretary of health and human services. for patel, the judiciary committee is meeting right now to decide whether to advance his nomination as fbi director to the full senate. with us now cnn national security correspondent and

former fbi supervisory special agent josh campbell. you have been monitoring this hearing. what can you tell us, josh? >> yeah. so it's still underway. this is the committee vote on kash patel for fbi director. the democrats have been speaking in succession, essentially slamming this nomination, you know, raising their concerns. we expect a vote to be coming up here very shortly. one thing that's interesting, you know, i'm hearing from people who are inside the fbi and this is, mind you, people from across political parties is that this type of nomination is raising concerns because we've never seen an fbi director so politically tied to a president. and in this case, you know, history is important to look to. it was 50 years ago, about 50 years that congress actually instituted a ten year term for the fbi. and that's because for the 50 years before that, you had fbi director j. edgar hoover, who among, you know, all the work that he did to include fighting crime, he was also accused of currying favor with several presidents. and so what congress decided is they didn't want those abuses. they didn't want an fbi director to be

lashed up so closely with the president. of course, in kash patel, we know, you know, based on his own words, this is, you know, assessment of what he said, that he's, you know, pledged his loyalty to donald trump. he's also done things, you know, spread conspiracy theories accusing the fbi of instigating the january 6th riot, for example, calling them the deep state. so a lot of concern there about what this might do to transform this institution that is supposed to be independent. >> so what kind of effect is that having inside the bureau right now, as you're talking to agents there? >> well, they're concerned because, you know, on any given day, most fbi employees don't wake up thinking about who the director of the fbi is. they have their work, you know, they put their head down and they do their work. but the fbi director has great power in shaping what the institution does and also what it does not do. and so there's one concern, you know, say, hypothetically, you have a situation where fbi employees get evidence of some type of crime that may be occurring among people who may be associated with the president.

would that be shut down? would it even they would they even get the green light to try to pursue that? and again, we know just because of the political infusion here, things that that kash patel said about going after a so-called enemies list, there's a lot of concern, again, that, you know, on the day to day activity that fbi agents, analysts, professional staff are supposed to be engaged in. will there now be this added infusion of politics, which again, you know, as they say, could be a very dangerous thing. >> so, as you know, kash patel has vowed to to not retaliate and so forth and make decisions out of that. but senator dick durbin, the top democrat on the senate judiciary committee, has accused him of ordering the firings of these top fbi officials as a nominee and then lying to congress about it. durbin is citing whistleblowers as the source of his claims. what do we know about this? and again, what is kash patel said? >> yeah, this is really interesting because as kash patel testified under oath, he said that he wasn't aware of any type of, you know, firings that were coming against people who had been involved in trump

related investigations. but as you mentioned, senator dick durbin, a democrat on the committee, came out with this whistleblower information. essentially, there was a meeting at the fbi where agents were told that the executive floor would be cleaned out. there would be these firings. and as one whistleblower said, that according to a contemporaneous notes from someone there, that this was allegedly something that kash patel wanted to do. and so what senator durbin is saying is that this actually flies in the face of what he testified to, that he had no knowledge of any type of firings, whether that will have any impact on this vote. you know, that's unclear. we expect that kash patel will make it out of committee. and again, you know, this is all infused with politics. you have a lot of senators there that even if they were concerned about what they're hearing about kash patel and there's no indication, you know, that they are, they would, you know, potentially face the wrath of donald trump if they try to block one of his nominations. so even despite all of that information that democrats have brought up, we don't expect right now that it would at least cause him to fail. fail getting out of committee. >> josh campbell, thanks so much. you bet. we are minutes

away from the confirmation vote of robert f. kennedy jr. to become health and human services secretary. we're going to take you live to capitol hill after. >> the break. >> welcome back. >> have i got news for you saturday at nine on cnn. >> oh. >> what if there's damage is extensive? enough? hey, paul. >> hey, fox. >> are you hiding from. >> used car shopping? >> no. >> yes. >> okay, just because nearly half of all used cars have been in an accident doesn't mean you have to overpay. really? take my word for it. it doesn't have to be scary. >> okay. show me. car fox. >> knowing how a car's accident history impacts price means you don't have to overpay. >> cool. wait. how did you get in here, exactly? >> no fear. just fox. say, show me a car. >> seriously, how did you get in here? >> i'm getting close enough. father. my. >> bounce back fast from heartburn with tums, gummy bites and love food. back. >> dum dum dum dum dum.

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senator mitch mcconnell going to vote today on this final confirmation vote? will he vote for rfk jr.. just remember, mcconnell is a polio survivor. he has been a strong and stringent advocate for vaccines for children against polio. he's also been someone who has advocated extremely strongly over the last several years for the covid 19 vaccine. even when donald trump had injected some uncertainty about that vaccine during his own presidency. so it is really going to be an interesting moment as to whether or not mcconnell decides ultimately to vote for this nomination. we saw yesterday him vote against tulsi gabbard for the director of national intelligence. he also voted against pete hegseth for the top job at the pentagon. and it's just this really remarkable moment, given the fact that mcconnell is obviously the former republican leader, the longest serving senate leader in history. and yet now he is sort of unencumbered and finding this moment where at times he has voted against donald trump's

nominees when he feels like they aren't qualified for the job or when he feels like they have exhibited questionable judgment. as he said in his statement yesterday when it came to tulsi gabbard in her judgment in the past. so that is the key vote that we are watching. of course, it will not have an outcome on whether or not rfk jr.. gets through, because even if mitch mcconnell votes against this nomination, he'll still have the votes to advance in the united states senate. we do know that all the other republicans have so far expressed that they are ready to vote for this nominee, pam. >> all right. lauren fox, thanks so much. any moment now, defense secretary pete hegseth is expected to address reporters from the nato summit in brussels as the ripple effect of president trump's call with vladimir putin spreads among u.s. allies. >> kickback and embrace the southern charm. enter for your chance to win hgtv dream home 2025. brought to you by wayfair. every style, every home.

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>> lockerbie premieres sunday at nine on cnn. >> in moments, defense secretary pete hegseth will hold a press conference from the nato defense ministers summit in brussels. with us now is retired air force colonel cedric leighton. so, colonel, there has been a lot of playing out when it comes to ukraine and russia. we know president trump spoke to president putin. do you think ukrainian president zelenskyy is being boxed out right now? >> it sure looks like that, pamela. >> and it's really disturbing because of course, the ukrainians have made all these incredible sacrifices. you know, they've lost, you know, possibly as many as 60,000 troops killed in action and certainly several hundred thousand wounded. and they have also been put in a position where they're losing population. and that is a considerable drain on their resources. they have done an amazing amount of military work. they've been able to basically stop the russians, although the russians are gaining some ground in certain

areas, especially in the east of ukraine. but ukraine is definitely not being rewarded for its sacrifices at the moment. and that's very concerning, frankly. >> now, pete hegseth, for his part, has said that this is not a betrayal to ukraine. but do you think ukraine sees it as a betrayal? >> i think they do. i think most ukrainians are going to look at this and they're going to say, you know, why are you precluding us from joining nato? why are you telling us that, you know, we're not going to be really part of the negotiations. and that is, i think, a significant problem. you know, if pete hegseth wants to gain the trust of the ukrainians, he has to include the ukrainians. same for president trump. they need to include the ukrainians in all of this. i know president trump seems to have a proclivity for russia, but in this particular case, it's better to be more evenhanded than anything else. and that that does make a difference. >> right. and there we see pete hegseth right now. um, let's listen. >> in with. >> 31 allies, also with my wife,

jenny, who's been meeting with families of u.s. troops both here in germany. and we're heading to poland right after this as well. that's what this is all about for me, for president trump and the defense department. i also want to express a special thanks to the secretary general, secretary general ruta, uh, for your boldness, for your friendship, for your leadership, and most especially for your urgency, your urgency of the matter at hand, which is great to see from the leader of nato. look forward to working very closely with him and his team. and before we're talking about what we've done at the ministerial, i want to reaffirm a few things from this podium. first, as we see it. nato's strategic objectives are to prevent great power conflict in europe, deter nuclear and non-nuclear aggression, and defeat threats to treaty allies should deterrence fail. second, the u.s. is committed to

building a stronger, more lethal nato. however, we must ensure that european and canadian commitment to article three of this treaty is just as strong. article three says that allies, and i quote by means of continuous and effective self-help and mutual aid, will maintain and develop their individual and collective capacity to resist armed attack. leaders of our european allies should take primary responsibility for defense of the continent, which means security, ownership by all allies, guided by a clear understanding of strategic realities. and it's an imperative, given the strategic realities that we face and that begins with increasing defense spending. 2% is a start. as president trump has said. but

it's not enough. nor is 3%. nor is 4%. more like 5%. real investment. real urgency. we can talk all we want about values. values are important. but you can't shoot values. you can't shoot flags and you can't shoot strong speeches. there is no replacement for hard power. as much as we may not want to like the world we live in, in some cases there's nothing like hard power. it should be obvious that increasing allied european defense spending is critical. as the president of the united states has said. also critical is expanding our defense industrial base capacity on both sides of the atlantic. our dollars, our euros, our pounds must become real capabilities. >> defense secretary pete

hegseth speaking there, talking about nato nations needing to increase their spending. we need to take a quick break and we'll be back on the other side. stay with. >> us. >> chasing life with dr. sanjay gupta is brought to you by sleep number. sleep better together with a sleep number. smart bed. it's the only bed that lets you make each side firmer or softer whenever you like. your sleep number setting only at a sleep number store or sleepnumber.com. now go to cnn.com or anywhere you get your podcasts. to learn more about the surprising science behind how we can thrive. >> a sleep number smart bed is perfect for couples. it helps reduce snoring with a tap so you both get your best night's sleep. and now save 50% on the new sleep number. limited edition smart bed shop a sleep number store near you. >> want a next level clean swish with the whoa of listerine. it kills 99.9% of bad breath germs for five times more cleaning power than brushing and flossing alone. get a next level clean

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