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nightmare scenario that we're looking at right now. a jet upside down on the runway after crash landing at toronto's main airport. smoke plumes billowing from the plane's underbelly. at least one wing ripped off, but miraculously, everyone on that plane is alive tonight. passengers who walked away from it captured their shock and their relief. >> drop it! come on. don't take no phone away. go away! go! holy. holy. holy. oh. >> my. >> yo! i was just on. this plane. >> if there's any time worth cussing. it was then the airport's fire chief says 18 people were hurt, but there were

no life threatening injuries. it is incredible. especially when you hear just how frightening the landing actually was. >> when we hit. it was just a super hard. like hit the ground and the plane went sideways. and i believe we skidded like on our side and then flipped over on our back. where we ended up, there was like a big fireball out this left side of the plane. and when we got finished, it was i was upside down. >> everyone is being praised for how quickly they responded, from the flight attendants to the firefighters. but now the question remains how did this happen? strong winds were reported at the airport all day, with gusts up to 40mph. major snowstorms had hit toronto recently. you can see the result there. the plane was flipped over on a snow covered tarmac, and you heard that passenger

describe how hard the landing was. investigators will now try to figure out exactly how this happened. let's go to cnn's tom foreman, who is at the magic wall for us. tom, the fire chief says it's it's early, of course, yet, but that he believes the tarmac was was dry and that there were no major crosswinds at the time of the crash. passengers, though, have suggested otherwise. what can you tell us about the conditions? >> well, yes, sir, and i think the video suggests otherwise. we know that there were winds in the area with gusts up to 40 miles an hour. we know how cold it was and knew there had been some snow. we know when we watch that video, you can see the wind rippling people's clothing. you can see it blowing snow across this ground right over there. so clearly, there was a lot going on in the area, but that still leaves open the question exactly how did a plane like this get from this shape to that shape? the question is, if the crosswinds were enough to make it touch a wingtip. aviation experts say that could have

produced what that witness described a collapse to one side or rolling over if some landing gear had collapsed upon impact, maybe because there was a problem with it, maybe because it wasn't deployed, maybe because there was a hard, unexpected gust at that moment. that also could have caused that problem, or maybe the whole thing somehow went off the edge of the hard pan at some point. and that contributed to this, or maybe a factor of all of those together. that's what investigators have to look at. all of those possibilities. and yeah, no matter what somebody might say, they're going to be looking at the weather, the snow, the ice and the wind. sarah. >> yeah. and the video of the billowing black smoke as the plane crashed. we also heard from one of the passengers saying that there was some sort of fireball. what kind of questions does that raise? >> this raises a big question, as some of our airline experts have spoken earlier today. this raises another question of was there a some sort of catastrophic failure the moment they showed up? this could be

the jet fuel burning off. and because it's not burning at its optimum level, there's a lot of carbon in it that makes a big black cloud like this. or maybe it's something else related to the landing gear. that's one of the reasons they have to look at it. all of these are little bits of evidence that they have to put together here. the one thing that they really have, which you don't always have in plane crashes, is a lot of witnesses, with everyone surviving. everybody has a tale to tell. and somebody may have seen a little something or witnessed a little something that will help them put together exactly how this came together, or if it was just a terrible combination of events coming together in a certain bad way that made this happen. >> it's terrifying to look at, but amazing that everyone survived. tom foreman, always a pleasure. thank you so much. >> good seeing you, sarah. >> all right. let me bring in now cnn analyst peter goelz, former ntsb managing director, and mary schiavo, former department of transportation inspector general. mary, i want to talk to you first. you heard

the survivor of the crash say the plane hit very hard as it landed. it skidded on its side, then flipped over. what kind of clues does that give you as to the potential? and i know we are a long way off from getting a preliminary cause, but a potential cause of this accident. >> well, and there are lots of clues already. i mean, starting with the air traffic control. the air traffic control gave the weather. there was also weather and winds given before. and they did give some warnings of the strength of the winds. then the air traffic control said something that seems somewhat odd to me. it says, you know, beware of a bump prior flight. did that mean the prior flight reported that it was very bumpy, or were they concerned about any kind of wake turbulence? and then when they hit on the end of the runway, i mean, they were right at the end of the runway, not a ways down. that suggests that they had, you know, a tremendous downward force. they really came down very hard. and they will be able to look at the

vertical speed, the ground speed, the sink rate, meaning how fast the plane was going relative to the ground. was it sinking? was it bouncing? was it rolling? that's all going to be recorded. and so what it suggests to me is, you know, sadly, winds and a very precipitous landing probably, probably it would be considered not a stabilized landing to land that hard and fast. and i think inevitably the winds and the weather are going to play, and they're going to look exactly what that air traffic controller meant when they said, be, you know, be careful of bump from the previous flight. do they report that it was bumpy, or were they concerned about some sort of wake turbulence? >> peter. there is some discrepancy over the role that crosswinds may have played. passengers describing a very windy ride. and you sort of heard, though from the fire chief, that he didn't believe

crosswinds were coming at this, at this plane as it was landing. how do you determine all of that, whether or not the gusts of wind may have been a major factor. >> well, it's a little inappropriate for the fire chief to be speculating about weather, particularly given, uh, the information that mary referenced that the flight controllers gave out to the pilots and the weather, uh, that was identified by tom, uh, at the board. i mean, there was clearly crosswinds. the question is, was there a big gust that took this plane right as it was starting to land? mary pointed out it landed right at the end of the runway, when it might ordinarily have been down. another excuse me, a couple of hundred yards. and, uh, you know, i think the information is in the data recorder. it's in the voice recorder, and it's going to be

in the witness marks that you'll see. you know, we'll know where the plane put down. if the wing did catch, uh, the ground. we'll see it. there will be a witness, mark. this is not going to be an investigation. that's going to be puzzling for years to come. we'll know what happened, and we'll know how to prevent it from happening again. >> yeah. the plane almost wholly intact, except for the wing, broke off, as i learned it is supposed to do. um, and so you're you have the black boxes as well. easily accessible. um, mary, when you when you hear about this and see the black smoke, but also hear that there was a fireball and the fact that the plane flipped immediately, according to a survivor who cnn spoke to. what does that say to you? >> well, i think that fireball that that was reported and that black smoke, i do think that's from when the wings came off and the fuel burning. that's not a

hydraulic leak. i mean, lots of times when you have a collapsed landing gear, you have this hydraulic spray. that's not that that is burning. there's a there's a video floating around on the internet that shows quite a fireball. who knows if it's accurate. you know, truly of this accident. but i think that is fuel. and that's from when the wing came off. and again, just remarkable how fortunate it was that the wings came off and the fuselage kept going with the passengers saving their lives, getting them out of the fireball. i mean, it's remarkable. >> yeah. watching people stand there and help passengers get out, smiles on their faces, just trying to make sure everyone is calm. and the way in which this all happened is truly remarkable and a testament to the first responders there. peter, i am curious about just how quickly they showed up. you see, a medevac helicopter was in the area at the time, and it was

minutes. um, seconds even. um, as you saw people respond immediately to this, what did you make of the response to this crash? >> well, i think i think there's two things. one is, you know, the first responders at airports. drill constantly for this kind of event, that they were there within minutes is exactly what they drill for. it's exactly what we as taxpayers pay them to do. we want them there in the first few minutes and the flight attendants really ought to be praised as well in what could be a, you know, a terribly confusing situation. they appear to have performed really above and beyond the call. and, you know, one of the things that you saw was the flight attendant calling for a passenger to drop a piece of luggage. at this point, you've got to give up the, the, the luggage folks, and

you want to get off the plane as quickly as possible. yeah, luggage will be there when you get back. or maybe it won't, but you'll be okay. >> your life. first, your luggage. second. third. whatever. everyone needs to get off of the plane. especially because it was billowing with smoke. um, look, 18 passengers, though, were were injured, but there were no fatalities. um, what about this crash? i mean, what saved people? what were some of the things, perhaps the seats on the plane, the way that the wing came off? what were some of the safety measures that you think may have saved lives here? >> well, i think. >> i think sorry. >> that was to mary. sorry, peter. >> yeah, well, so, so many things. the construction of the aircraft improved dramatically over the last several decades. um, the the survivability of the interiors. uh, peter's a big champion and helped play a role in the 16 g seats, which means

the seats stay intact. they stay affixed. they don't collapse one upon the other. what used to happen is the backs of the seats would collapse over on top of people. um, the interiors of aircraft are less flammable. they're more flame resistant. they don't catch fire as easily as they used to. and of course, the exit rule, you got to be able to get the plane empty in 90s or less. that's the rig. >> and it seems they manage that. peter, uh, thank you for for making plane safer when you consider what happened here. you know, the crew is upside down. the passengers are upside down. but the seats did stay intact, and people were able to get off that plane, and they are all going to survive this. it is a remarkable moment. even though terrifying, to watch and experience. peter goelz mary schiavo, thank you both so much. really appreciate it. >> good night. >> all right. ahead, passengers describe the horror of the plane flipping over and then the

scramble to get out alive. >> we hit the ground and we were sideways, and then we were upside down. hanging like bats. >> this is cnn, the world's news network. >> who has more subscriptions? >> we're a package deal, baby. and your subscription is my subscription. all right. we have about 100, but with experian app, they can help cancel those subscriptions that we don't even need. >> very helpful. >> download the experian app now. >> my sky. nobody gonna slow me down. >> years of hard work. >> i've got to keep. >> decades of dedication. committed to giving back. you've been there, done that, and you're still here for more. so now that you're 50 or older and at increased risk for pneumococcal pneumonia and ipd, be proactive with a vaccine specifically designed for adults to help protect against

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logo and placed my order. bring your own team together with custom gear. get started today at custom inc.com. >> the international basketball federation voted to allow professional basketball players to compete in future olympic games. in world championships. >> i don't think i thought we would scrimmage them. best pickup game you're ever going to play in in your life? this is our moment. this is our dream. we're playing against our heroes. wow. all i know is when the clock stopped, we were up. we beat the dream team. we beat the dream team. streaming exclusively on max. >> all right, we continue to follow the breaking news out of toronto, where a delta airlines flight with 80 people on board crashed and flipped upside down on a snow covered runway. at least 18 passengers were taken to local hospitals, but every single person is expected to survive. cnn's paula newton is joining me now. paula, i know that you were at the airport the same day. just, you know, a bit

before this all happened. what are you learning about the people on board and some of the injuries that they have sustained? >> yeah. so we just have some new information in from delta. they in fact say that they have deployed their incident response team, but as well, they say that some of the passengers, some of those 18, sarah, that initially were sent to hospital have now been released. and of course that is good news. as you point out, these are non life threatening injuries for all 18. we had heard earlier that three possibly were critically injured, including one child, and we continue to look for updates on the condition of those passengers. but you know, sarah, you and i, anyone looking at this video, you can only say miraculous when you look that it's flipped upside down and that the kind of injuries that we're looking at here in the main were fairly minor. people being released from hospital and even those injuries that were more critical, they're non-life threatening. and then look at that airplane. i want you to listen now, though, to the

survivors. describe what happened in their own words. >> it was mass chaos. i was upside down. the lady next to me was upside down. um, we kind of let ourselves go and fell to hit the ceiling, which is surreal feeling. um, and then everybody was just like, get out, get out, get out. we could smell like jet fuel. um, even now, i smell like jet fuel. a lot of stress. um. it's amazing that we're still here. >> just feeling lucky and happy. i got to give the person i didn't know sitting next to me a big hug, that we were okay. >> yeah. quite a bonding moment, i'm sure. but can you imagine? we let ourselves fall. you literally have to unfasten your seatbelt and fall, and then likely crawl to the emergency exit that, you know, the flight attendants, they're just doing incredible work to really ensure the safety of their passengers. now, look, when we talk about the investigation, canada's

transportation safety board will be taking the lead. of course, the ntsb will be assisting, but usually and as we've had analysts and some of your guests on earlier, sarah, say, sometimes it's not just one thing. you know, you commented that i was at the airport, the winds were strong, the snow was blowing. perhaps that didn't have anything to do with the incident itself. what is crucial here, though, is the communication though with the tower. i have been behind the scenes at that toronto tower. um, everyone just so diligent and competent and it will be interesting just to see what they were seeing on those flights that were approaching that very same runway just minutes before. >> yeah. and it's interesting to hear the air traffic control and the flight that didn't seem to be any major concern, although they said that there was going to be a bump. we will wait and see. i know the investigation takes about a month to get some sort of preliminary look at what happened there. paula newton, thank you so much for staying up late with us. appreciate you. all right. i want to bring in former acting faa administrator

billy nolan. he was also a former pilot for american airlines. first, your reaction to the fact that we're now seeing another crash, this time 80 people upside down as they describe it, like bats on that runway in toronto, but no fatalities. what do you make of that? >> well, you know, as most of your other guests have said, sarah, this is, you know, strike it up as a miraculous recovery, if you will. uh, first of all, i just, you know, tip my hat to again to this amazing crew, to the flight attendant, the ability to quickly get all of the passengers off the airplane. safety. as you've already noted, a few some minor injuries there, but overall, what we would call a good outcome based on everything that we're looking at here. and now the critical work, you know, begins with the investigation with the transportation safety board and the lead, as noted, to say, you know what happened? why did it

happen? and certainly all we always think about what are the things that we can do to prevent it from happening in the future. so but but the good point here is that the fuselage, the body of the aircraft, is intact. they will be able to quickly retrieve, you know, the flight data recorder, the cockpit voice recorder. all that will be critical in just understanding those final moments of the flight just prior to touchdown. >> can you give me some sense being that you're a pilot, what it's like to be in the cockpit when something like this goes wrong? now, obviously we haven't seen very many scenarios where a plane has actually flipped upside down. um, but when you have what is called a hard landing, as you well know, um, you know, how do you handle that? >> well, yes, we train and, you know, as a crew, as a pilot, i, you know, past life, i spent a part of my time as a training captain where i trained all the crews. so you go through many of

these scenarios about recovering from a hard landing, recovering from what we call a bounce landing, right. uh, you know, some of these things, you that you hope that you will never see over the course of your career, and certainly over the course of my 26.5 years of flying as an airline pilot and captain, i never encountered something of this magnitude. but it's something that you think about. and then you're, you know, that training really does kick in, as we see with the flight attendants of getting all of this, all of the passengers safely off the aircraft and the pilots, so the rest will just have to wait for this investigation, which you know, has been stated, won't take that long for us to have a pretty definitive answer as what happened in the last few seconds. >> there are so many questions. the landing gear, if there was an issue there, if it was slippery, if there was tons of wind that impacted this plane. if, for example, the plane's wing actually hit, um, causing it to flip over. there are so many things that the the

investigators will be looking at. but while i have you. politics has entered the sphere, and it always does. i want to ask you about a separate matter involving the faa. on sunday, the trump administration started firing hundreds of faa employees. the employees are newer employees that were still under probation, making it easier to let them go. do you have any concerns about that decision? >> you know, the way i see it, having been the acting faa administrator, having led this organization, 45,000 people, is what we have to continually improve. and as i think about it, my understanding is that the critical roles, the air traffic controllers who oversee the flights, the people who maintain the air traffic control equipment, the safety inspectors who oversee the safety of our national airspace system. of all the operators within that system, none of those those people were impacted. that being said, right, this is an

opportunity for us to continue to look for ways to improve, making sure i'm reminded of part of the hippocratic oath, which is part of which says do no harm. right. so we want to make sure that this system, which is quite complex with all of the operators, to make sure that we don't wake up and suddenly we've got delays. et cetera. et cetera. et cetera. you know, the american public expects to get on an airplane and fly safely to their destination and get off that airplane and have that all done in an atmosphere of complete safety. i believe that's what the agency delivers day in and day out. and so as we seek technological improvements and advancements to to keep pace for the next 20 to 50 years, let's make sure we keep the system intact and safe day in and day out. >> billy nolan, i really appreciate you staying up late and talking us through that. it's really important to have your perspective. >> thank you. >> all right. there is more breaking news for us tonight.

new york city mayor eric adams remains defiant, even as some of his top deputies have resigned. and now we're getting word tonight that governor kathy hochul is calling a meeting that may decide the mayor's fate. and former new york governor david paterson live with me to react to that and more. plus, talks between the u.s. and russia are set to kick off over the war in ukraine without representatives from ukraine. we'll discuss. ahead. >> cooked books, corporate fat cats swindling socialites, doped up cyclists. then yes, more crooked politicians. i have a feeling we won't be running out of those anytime soon. >> a new season of united states of scandal with jake tapper. march 9th on cnn. >> scout is protected by simparica trio and he's in it to win it. simparica trio is the first chew with triple protection. o fleas and ticks.

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gives you the best price. go to finance. com. >> i'm doctor. >> sanjay gupta in atlanta and this is cnn. >> got some breaking news out of new york. governor kathy hochul may be closer to deciding if she'll try to remove new york city mayor eric adams. hochul

says she'll be meeting with key leaders in new york tomorrow to discuss the path forward. adams, so far has remained defiant, and he even turned some heads earlier today after he said this to reporters while making the case for him to stay in office. >> i remember listening to some of doctor king's teaching, and he talked about the book mein kampf, and he indicated, if you tell a lie long enough, loud enough, people would tend to believe it's true. and that's what you're seeing right there, right now. modern day mein kampf. >> um, okay. a book by adolf hitler. that was certainly a choice. and adams said it minutes before four of his top aides resigned, three of them saying that the, quote, extraordinary events of the last few weeks led them to their decision to quit. those events being the justice department's decision to drop bribery charges against adams. the justice

department says the charges prevented adams from doing his job, mainly taking part in trump's immigration crackdown. the doj and adams says it was not a quid pro quo, but seven prosecutors resigned in protest, refusing to take part in what they claimed was a plan, a bad deal. joining me now, former governor of new york, david paterson. he's been a staunch supporter of mayor adams. you said it was outrageous for adams to resign when he was initially charged. do you still think it's outrageous for adams to resign? >> what i thought was outrageous, sara, was people were people telling him that he had to. resign when only he knows really. >> what went on. he and whoever he talked to, uh, you know, from the white house and, and just this rush to judgment that we have in politics these days. where whenever anyone gets in

the slightest bit of trouble, there's this stampede to try to get them out of office. i didn't think it was fair to him. and i don't now. >> let me ask you this, because there is this issue between him and trump's border czar, tom homan. and there is a question as to whether a back door deal was made and that there was a quid pro quo, whether it was months ago, he was home and asked to go into rikers to try and find immigrants who were there undocumented. and the mayor refused. and now suddenly he's saying, sure, go ahead in. and then, lo and behold, his case gets dropped. doesn't that look bad? >> well, mayor adams and homan were on another network on friday, and they asked homan what happens if adams doesn't comply. and he said something that was really vulgar. and i thought unnecessary and something that would lead you to think that there is a. quo, because when people talk like

that, they must know something that they're not revealing. >> all right. four top aides to adams resigned. do you have confidence that adams can can govern under this turmoil? govern under this turmoil? these are just the recent folks who resigned. you had a litany of others who resigned, including, uh, the police commissioner and the health commissioner. um, so can he go forward and run this city? >> well, the pathway to leading the city is obviously going to be encumbered by the loss of many of these very important people who work for mayor adams and very distinguished people who work for mayor adams. but if they feel that they can't work in an environment where they're doing their job, i don't know that i blame them for that. but there are too many times when, the staff of an elected official

who is in some kind of trouble, sort of embraces the trouble. and in other words, you know, i, i worked for people who i thought they had no idea what they were doing, and i worked for people who i thought were corrupt. but when i decided to leave, i made it as quiet as possible because you don't want to upstage the person that gave you the opportunity to work there in the first place. >> i want to get your your sense of what's going to go down here. governor hochul says she is going to meet with key leaders tomorrow to discuss a path forward. what would you consider if you were holding this meeting tomorrow, and would it, in your mind be a mistake for her to say, we're removing you? >> well, i think the governor is really on the right track here. if you have a difficult situation such as this, you try to bring other people around you. one person can't solve all the world's problems, but sometimes ten people can. so the fact that governor hochul is having a meeting, i think is

most appropriate. they'll listen to the thoughts of the other leaders that they bring in. and governor hochul did point out that governors never really removed a mayor previously. governor, uh, franklin roosevelt was going to remove mayor jimmy walker in 1932. but mayor walker resigned and moved to a neighboring village, a place called london, england. and so, you know, that's, uh, i think real demonstration of leadership by governor hochul to actually do that. >> all right. there are a few people that are running, including michael blake, for the new york city mayorship, um, the former new york governor, andrew cuomo, is reportedly considering joining the race. he posted this video on x for valentine's day, embracing voters. and a democratic group has already

endorsed cuomo. should cuomo jump in the race, considering he resigned over allegations of sexual misconduct? >> well, if here again, if governor cuomo wants to jump into the race and that's what he truly wants to do. uh, you know, i don't see any reason to actually stop him. he has held elected office for 14.5 years. um, some of it as attorney general and most of it as governor. he, uh, was in office during the pandemic and did a terrific job. i mean, he was must see tv every day. i used to say, who needs doctor phil? we can just turn on and listen to governor cuomo every day. but, uh, it would be a comeback for him. but he's got a lot of experience. and also, um, you know, i think he has the resources that he could run. and i think he also, um, you know, may have learned from some of his experiences that didn't go

that well. >> how can people questioned what happened with nursing homes during his tenure? but they did get used to seeing him every single day on television, trying to calm people down. as new york went through one of the most horrific times in its health care industry during the covid 19 outbreak. thank you so much for being here with us and walking us through this. this is a political tightrope that the mayor finds himself on. all right. just ahead. secretary of state marco rubio arrives in saudi arabia ready to talk to russia about ukraine's future. except no one from ukraine is at these talks. my next guest says the trump administration may be about to cave to putin. plus, elon musk doge tries to access social security information, and now the head of the social security administration is taking a bold move in response. >> it's the news.

>> welcome back. >> but it's also kind of not the news. >> we don't. >> fact check it. we don't care. man wants. >> all the information on this show. so terrible. >> have i got news for you? saturday at nine on cnn. and. >> doug. >> you'll be back. emus can help people customize and save hundreds on car insurance with liberty mutual. you're just a flightless bird. >> no, he's. >> a dreamer, frank. >> and doug. >> well, i'll be. that bird really did it. >> only pay. >> for what you need. >> liberty, liberty, liberty, liberty. >> did you take your vitamin today? >> oh, that's my job. >> nature made. made with quality ingredients. made to

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>> yeah. >> this tiny home trend. not for me. now, this is more like it. the same goes for my footwork. so i went hands free with wide foot skechers slip ins. just step in and go without bending down or touching my shoes. wide fit, hands free skechers slip ins. >> we're now just a few hours away from a pivotal meeting that could begin to decide the fate of the war in ukraine. secretary of state marco rubio is leading the talks. he'll be in saudi arabia, the capital there in riyadh, to meet with russia's foreign minister, sergey lavrov. no ukrainian or european representative will be there. we're told this meeting is to lay the groundwork for future talks, including a potential face to face between president trump and vladimir putin. now i want to bring in ned price, former senior adviser to secretary of state tony blinken and former spokesperson for the state department. thank you so much for being here, ned. give us some sense of what we should

expect from this meeting, and if you think anything is going to come of it. >> well, sarah, good to be here. i know this is a story that is near and dear to your heart as well. look, i don't expect much to come of this meeting tomorrow. and i say that as someone who sat in the last time in the last meeting, a secretary of state held with sergei lavrov to discuss ukraine. this was in january of 2022. it was part of our all out effort to forestall what was then russia's imminent invasion of ukraine. it was ultimately unsuccessful, not because we didn't leave anything on the field, but because russia was determined to go forward with this. and what was so remarkable about the last time the secretary of state, secretary blinken at the time, met with sergey lavrov, was the fact that this was not the sergei lavrov that we had come to know over the course of many years. this was a russian foreign minister who was uncharacteristically looking at

his notes, reading from his notes the whole time appeared very nervous. and ultimately, i think we concluded that he either didn't know what was about to happen. he, too, was in the dark, kept in the dark by president putin, or he was deeply uncomfortable with what was going to happen. and that was really showcased in his body language. and so i say that knowing that they're going to meet the russian foreign minister tomorrow, there is one person who started this war, it was president putin. there is one person who can end this war. it is president putin meeting with other officials may help eventually to get there. it may help to scope out what the russians are going to demand where they are. but ultimately, there aren't going to be concrete results from a meeting with anyone but vladimir putin. >> all right. so let's talk about the fact that ukraine is not at the table for this very beginning of negotiations. and zelenskyy has told nbc that he wouldn't accept a deal struck by russia and the u.s. if

ukraine didn't have a seat at the table. listen to what republican senator markwayne mullin said yesterday. >> i think what president trump is doing here is actually really smart. he's he's meeting with zelenskyy. he's having conversations with him. what that is doing, john, is that's putting both people of getting them in separate rooms, talking about what they will accept, and then finding out in negotiation path forward before you bring them to the table. a lot of times you bring people to the table too fast, john. it'll blow up. they'll walk away and you'll set back the talks for maybe six months. >> is it smart to start with russia and wait to have the ukrainians and europeans in the same room? >> well, sarah, i feel that president trump, i fear that president trump is preparing to violate the cardinal rule of diplomacy. and that is a simple proposition that we cannot want an outcome. the united states cannot want an outcome more so than the other side. in this case, we cannot want an end to russia's russia's aggression

more so than russia is ready to stop the fighting. and i fear that president trump is ready to to violate that cardinal rule. and i say that because president putin has has had ample opportunity over the course of now, three years in the first instance, to really stop what was then the buildup of forces to prevent the russian invasion of ukraine. and he has had ample opportunity over the course of those three years since russian forces have mounted this full scale invasion of ukraine to come to the negotiating table. and yet he has declined to do so. the fact that he is at least sending a delegation now suggests that he is operating from a position of strength, that when president trump says that the united states is going to seek a just and durable peace, that that's nothing more than words, because this is if this is going to be a just and durable peace. of course, it has to be durable. it has to be lasting, it has to be enduring. but it also, importantly has to

be just. and a just peace is a peace that really makes a distinction between aggressor russia in this case, and the victim ukraine. there is a simple dictum that if russia were to stop fighting today, the war would end. if ukraine were to stop fighting today, ukraine would end. that's really what's at stake here. i want to take president trump at his word that the united states is going to seek a just and durable peace, a peace that sets ukraine up for long term prosperity, for independence, for sovereignty. i fear that by not including the ukrainians at the table, by not including the europeans at the table. president trump wants to achieve a deal more so than president putin, and in doing so, he is willing to sell ukraine down the creek. that's dangerous for ukraine, of course, but it's also profoundly dangerous for the global international order. >> the president and others saying they will eventually talk to ukraine. but at this point, they are starting with russia.

that has quite a few folks, especially those in ukraine and the president of ukraine, very concerned. ned price, thank you so much for joining us. >> thanks, sarah. >> all right. still ahead. first it was the irs. now it's the social security administration. elon musk's doge reportedly trying to access data at the agency. what one top official did in protest. >> in the middle of suburbia. this owl is hoping to find a lifetime of happiness. that's promising. this is life in your own backyard. the americas premieres sunday on nbc. >> they're gonna. >> break my stride. >> nobody gonna slow me down. >> years of hard work. >> i've got to. >> decades of dedication. committed to giving back. you've been there, done that. and you're still here for more. so now that you're 50 or older and at increased risk for

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try friday.com. once again, nine tablets for just $7 is try friday.com. >> welcome back. >> have i got news for you news saturday on cnn. close captioning brought to you by.com. >> if you or a loved. >> one have. >> mesothelioma, we'll send you a free book to answer questions you may have. call now and we'll come to you. >> 821 4000. >> all right. we have some breaking news for you. the acting head of the social security administration has resigned. michelle king's departure comes after she refused to provide doge staffers access to sensitive information. your information? king had been with the department for 30 years. it's the latest act of resistance meant to slow cost cutting moves by president trump and elon musk. doge had to go to court to gain access to treasury

payment systems, and it is fighting to enter a sensitive database in the irs. with me now, brian lanza, former senior adviser to trump's 2024 campaign, and joe crowley, former new york congressman and former chair of the house democratic caucus. thank you both so much. brian, let's start here. people at home here at the social security administration, the head of that administration, stepping down and alarm bells do go off. what is the end goal here? >> first of all, thank you for having me. >> i think alarm. >> bells. >> do go off, but a lot of it just has to do with more hysteria than anything else. we know for a fact that donald trump and his his administration are entitled to have access to this. this is why they're winning. court decision after court decision after court decision. what you see is sort of, you know, i hate using the term sort of the deep state fighting the change that america wanted and asked for. you know, as for the sensitive data, of course, the sensitive data.

nobody believes that that sensitive data is going to be manipulated or abused. i know that it's sort of likes to be portrayed in this very nefarious way, but this is how you make cuts. this is how you find fraud. you actually see where the payments are made. you see if there's duplications. and i think in the end, you know, people are going to be ultimately happy with the cuts that are made. it's going to be social security, but it's not going to be medicare cuts. it's going to be real waste. it's going to be real fraud. those are the cuts that are taking place. and what's wrong with with outsiders looking in and trying to find it and spot it and root it out. >> let me ask you this. why not wait until the head of the social security administration that he has nominated now gets into place to try and get a hold of all this and really look at what's going on in the agency before doing these cuts. >> because what the president has learned from his first term to his second term, is that the best tactic in washington, d.c., is delay. you know, let's negotiate in good faith. let's wait for confirmations. let's do all these things. but at the end of the day, the delay tactics and the businessman, donald trump sees that. and he knows that the american people want action now and that legally he's entitled to do those

actions so he doesn't feel he needs to wait, because that's washington. washington, d.c. is game is let's wait. let's delay. trump's ready to go forward and he's ready to take it to the courts. and it looks like he's winning in the courts because he knows that the constitution backs him. >> joe, some may look at this and say, well, i mean is it a big deal? is there cause for alarm if doge has access to social security information? >> well, it's very sensitive information. it's probably the most one of the most sensitive pieces of information in a person's life. i mean, how often are people told not to give out their social security number? uh, so this is something that i think every american understands. what's the end game here, though? where are they really going? here. why are they waiting for the administrator to be appointed? have, you know, forensic accountants in there have accountants and not techies coming in and looking at this information, but folks who can come in and make the audits that are necessary to find if there are any, uh, any abuses in the system. i think both democrats and republicans agree if there

is something going wrong in terms of checks being sent to unqualified individuals, we want to see that stopped. but having someone come in who really has no congressional approval has not been vetted himself is simply a hire of the white house. and those folks that have that kind of access is unprecedented. >> brian, i want to talk to you about something that, um, trump posted on social media where he wrote, and i'm quoting here, he who saves his country does not violate any law. that is something that is believed to be attributed to napoleon. what do you make of this? what are we supposed to read into this? because what it seems to say is he's above the law. >> no, listen, i think what he's doing more than anything else, he's trolling the media and he's trolling democratic party officials. you know, he. >> is the president trolling anyone? he is the president of these united states. and people expect him to do the job that they put him in there to do,

which is to make things more affordable, deal with immigration. i mean, there are a lot of things that that people are hoping that he will do. and i think trolling people is probably not high on that list. >> well, listen, i think what we learned from the first term that it's a strategy and it's an effective strategy to push back against the media, to cause them to hyperventilate over every little thing which, when they hyperventilate over every little thing, they continue to lose more and more credibility. i think the strategy worked. so why would you stop it? and as for trolling, you know that that is that is who this president is. but you also have to remember, step back. the controversy always enhances the message. so anytime you guys, anytime the media, the want to hysteric over things he's doing, you're actually delivering our message for it. because the more controversy, the more it breaks through. and so i mean it works. that's why we do it. >> interesting. i'm not hysterical. i don't think anyone else is just asking a question. joe is is trump though, doing something different here, not just to troll people, but is he setting the stage to potentially ignore court rulings, do you

think? >> well, i think you asked the right question. why is any president trolling anyone that is not the role of the president. it's it's beneath the dignity of the office. but, you know, we know that this president has attention deficit disorder. if he's not in the media 24 hours every single day of the year, there's something wrong with the world. and therefore he has to be right out there sticking it in. i do think, though, it goes back to the decision by the supreme court last year that gave him immunity where he believed, and he now believes that he is above any law whatsoever. there's no constraint whatsoever that the congress is >> joe crowley, bryan lanza, thank you for that spirited conversation. appreciate it. and thank you so much. anderson cooper 360 is next. >> tonight on 360, how did an