closer look at the numbers, though, should bring you some comfort. my source tonight is cnn's senior data reporter, harry enten and harry, obviously this is freaked people out. you yourself. yes. i'm not revealing any private information. now you have a fear of flying too. or trepidation about flying. >> yeah. >> i absolutely. >> have a fear of flying. >> you know, i. like to say it's. one of the few times. >> i find. >> god is when i'm about to. >> go. up or about to go down. it freaks. >> me the heck out. >> right. >> i don't really. >> drink booze, but occasionally. >> if i get a little nervous, i might have some. >> booze before. >> taking off. but then. >> i. >> put that fear aside and i look at the numbers because that's where i am. at the end of the day, i'm a numbers guy. and what do we know? the number of deaths from commercial airliners over the last 15 years is. >> dramatically.

bit more than 60 deaths. so it's just significantly safer to fly now than it was in the 1980s, than it was in the 1990s, than it was in the 2000. so that's one thing we can look at. but the other thing we can look at is those sort of close runway calls. right. remember two years ago there was all this talk, right? of all these closed runway calls? well, guess what happened in 2024. that story seemed to go away. why did it seem to go away? it went away because the close calls on the runway went down significantly. significantly from 2023 to 2024. look at this 7 in 2024 compared to 22 and 2023. that number in 2024. caitlin was the lowest over the last decade. so there isn't that clear sign in the stats that airline travel is becoming more dangerous. in fact, the signs are it's becoming significantly safer. >> and i know, you know, hearing this argument, we obviously spoke to a lot of the people affected by the crash in washington. those numbers don't make them feel any better because they lost their loved ones and obviously are still dealing with that. and they see this and they're looking at

this though. but but the other thing that people have looked at when they do look at the numbers for, for flying is that versus driving. and technically, what is safer when you look at the number of accidents that happen in cars? >> yeah, i mean, i like to put these numbers in perspective, right. and what do we know? we know that traveling by airplane is significantly safer than traveling by car. in fact, the chance of passing away in a car accident is significantly greater than the chance of passing away in an airline accident. so when you put it all together, yes. the lives lost. horrible. horrible, horrible. but the bottom line is, airline travel is significantly safer than it's ever been. >> yeah, we'll see where these investigations, if they lead to new regulations as well. harry enten as always, thank you so much. thank you so much for joining us. cnn newsnight is up next. >> this is cnn breaking news. >> good evening. i'm sara sidner in new york in for abby phillip. we begin tonight with the breaking news out of toronto upside down and burning for 80

passengers and crew on delta airlines flight 4008 18, in minneapolis. a terrifying end to their trip. social media video showing passengers in an upside down plane scampering over overhead compartments being tugged through exit doors, only to turn and see the plane smoking. laying wrong side up on a snow covered tarmac. it's a shocking scene, but the true shock is that everyone made it out alive. officials revealing 18 people were, though, hurt, but most injuries are minor and everyone is expected to survive. airport traffic in toronto just opened back up again. for hours, flights were diverted to montreal while first responders tried to get control of the situation on the ground there. listening to air traffic control and the survivors. there were scant signs they were about to face a disastrous landing. >> when two hundred 23333323. you might get a slight bump in the glide path of an aircraft in front of it.

>> clear to land. two, three. endeavor 4819. >> when we hit, it was just a super hard, like a hit the ground and the plane went sideways. and i believe we skidded, like on our side and then flipped over on our back. where we ended up, there was like a big fireball out this left side of the plane. and when we got finished, it was i was upside down. everybody else was there as well. >> paula newton joins me now with more. paula, you had landed at that airport not long before all of this happened. what are sources telling you as to what they can say about the investigation? in the very preliminary parts of it? >> listen, they're obviously not going to say much now. they don't want to assume anything because that's part of a good, fair and balanced investigation. now, look, canadian transportation safety board, they're there now, as is the ntsb right from the united states. we'll have a preliminary report out in about a month from now. but when you are looking at this, you

obviously have to look at the weather, right? it is the wind. it is the accumulating snow. toronto had gotten over a foot of snow really in the last week. sarah i was at the airport. you could see the blowing snow and i remarked that i have never seen that much snow blowing around at toronto pearson airport, and i've gone through there hundreds of times. at issue now, though, is also the fire chief weighing in this evening at pearson and saying, look, i didn't notice any crosswinds and there was no snow or ice on the runway. obviously the investigation has to bear that out, but as of right now, they are looking at everything because at the end of the day, yes, the conditions were poor, but could it have been also something with the landing gear? could it have been pilot error? at this point you don't know, but you listen to the eyewitness accounts. i mean. unreal on your side. then flipping over. >> yes. something that you would don't normally hear about. a plane, a car, yes, a plane? no. and the pictures are stunning. to see that plane upside down

with some of it looked like it was burnt. you know, some of the wings just torn off. the emergency response, though, it was lightning fast. >> it was lightning fast, fast. it was textbook. i have seen those operations behind the scenes. in fact, i've been through every crevice of toronto airport. this is what they practice for. and it was textbook. and they've only got usually a minute or less. an incident happened in 2005 with air france. sarah. same thing. 297 people. the plane stuck in a ravine. it blew up. it was destroyed. 297 people got out alive. this should hearten everyone because i know everyone around the country and beyond is thinking right now, is it safe to travel? but you just said it, right? think about a car, right? if you're in a car, would you think that you could make it out that way in the same conditions? here was an airplane. yes. there were 18 people that did that were injured, including one child, but they're saying that, look, no one has life threatening injuries at this

hour, and the investigation will continue. >> that absolutely seems impossible. when you look at the state of the plane and knowing, listening to what the passenger said, that it had a very hard landing, and then it just started to to tumble. >> yeah. and sarah, i cannot tell you how windy it was. there was even just to come out of that airplane into that wind, onto that ice. it definitely would have been absolutely terrifying. and also for those first responders that knew that they had inside of 60 90s to get to that airplane. >> all right, paula, we're so glad to hear that no one lost their lives and everyone is expected to be okay. appreciate it. thank you. all right. now let's talk about how all this happened. the plane was attempting to land in high winds. and cnn's tom foreman is in dc at the magic wall to help illustrate what exactly went on here. tom, we mentioned those strong winds, paula, saying she'd never seen so much snow being picked up by these winds there in toronto. give us some sense of what that might have all looked like.

>> well, investigators have to look at all of this, sarah. they have to look at those 40 mile an hour wind gusts. some say they could have gone higher. they have to look at the temperature at the time the wind was coming in this way. the plane was landing that way. so if we were to look at the plane in this fashion and say it's trying to hit a runway that runs like this, well, the gusts were coming at it from roughly this angle. and again, we don't know entirely how strong they were at that moment or if there was a rogue gust, but many things could have happened here. this could have worked its way under this wing, because they're doing maneuvers to avoid that. and it could have tipped it up. the plane could have been coming in at an angle to try to angle into the wind, which is a common maneuver that pilots do. and then adjusting on the ground the way they do that. and something could have gone wrong there. it could have slid on something, or it could have gone off the hard top in some type, in any in any event, if they had a failure of the landing gear on one side, if

they touched a wing tip, if they simply got off the main path, they needed to be on. all of those could be one reason that the plane wound up like this. and yet people did survive. >> they did. you have looked at sort of the configuration of this plane and and the seats on the plane. what role did the seats on this plane potentially play here in keeping people safe? >> as much as people complain about the things that don't work in regulation and government, this really did work. one of the things that they require here are called 16 g seats. the g is like when you hear about, uh, fighter jets talking about g forces. it used to be nine g. um, some years ago they started requiring 16 g 16 gravitational force. what that means is that these seats, unlike previous seats, could survive. an impact like this, could roll over with people strapped into them, and they wouldn't tear loose from the floor. they wouldn't collapse. this doesn't happen in every plane crash, obviously, but when the fuselage manages to

stay together, they want people to be able to survive this type of seat required on all the planes here made a big difference in this. according to all the airline experts we've been talking about today, making it possible for people to survive an accident that otherwise might have killed them. and i say 16 g. it's important to bear in mind the reason they stop at 16. gravitational force 16 g is because any force beyond that would probably badly injure or kill you, even in the seat. so this is a very high level of security. and today, sarah, it worked. >> i got to tell you, i learned something every single time you were on the air. i did not know that these seats had been upgraded that way. a lot of us are seeing these sort of thinner seats. it feels like they're tighter, but the safety of the seats, um, is better and that is better. >> that's what you're really paying for. comfort is one thing. what you're really paying for is getting on the plane and coming off alive. >> the same thing when it comes

to flight attendants as well. they are there for our safety. tom foreman, thank you so much. really appreciate it. all right. i want to bring in daniel elwell, former acting administrator of the faa. under president trump's first term. he's also a former commercial and military pilot. sir, thank you so much for coming on the show. i first want to let you listen to what one of the survivors said happened. and as a former airline pilot, pilot, what do you think about these comments? and if it tells us anything about what may have caused all this? listen. >> when we hit, it was just a super hard, like hit the ground and the plane went sideways. and i believe we skidded, like on our side and then flipped over on our back where we ended up, there was like a big fireball out this left side of the plane. and when we got finished, it was i was upside down. >> all right. so you heard that? it hit hard, it went sideways.

it skidded. um, they also talked about a fireball. he also talked about a fireball. does that tell you anything of what may have have potentially caused all of this? >> yeah. it does, it does inform. and the accident itself and the investigation will bear out all of these things. but what interests me is that it hit hard, which could be indicative of a lot of things. but in heavy winds and gusts like that, it's not uncommon for there to be turbulence just before you land. and i did hear when you played that, uh, tower replay that the controller said, uh, be prepared for perhaps a bump plane in front of you or plane preceding you. and that indicates possible wake turbulence. we call it from a preceding aircraft. and all of those things. you think about the blowing snow and and the icy, perhaps icy surface and the gusting winds makes it a very

challenging approach. and it is highly likely, i think, that on that landing, they briefly lost control, and it was enough to upset the aircraft and put it on its back. >> our senior correspondent and anchor here, paula newton, had talked about she had just landed there and had left just before all of this happened, and she was remarking about how much the wind had picked up all the snow and sort of moved it all around. is there a possibility that that sort of skidding that the the runway was part of the problem and helped to exacerbate the problem., that that could have been part of the issue? >> um, as tom was explaining, when you're doing an approach to the runway in heavy crosswinds, you are pointing the aircraft into the wind, which puts the aircraft in a sideways position for landing. so you have to correct that just before touchdown, where the wheels will sort of hit sideways. and when

you do that, you drop the downwind wing. the wing up the wing that's pointing into the crosswind. and if on touchdown you relax. and and it's very easy to do that because because when you land you tend to okay, i got there. but if you relax the controls and don't continue to fly the aircraft and control it in on center line, then, uh, if you're if you're not really careful, especially in icing and blowing, blowing snow conditions, uh, you could have a wing tip hit, uh, and then that could cartwheel the airplane and put it on its back. >> terrifying. just listening to you talk about what could have happened. and then we see these images that are unprecedented. i mean, i don't remember the last time i saw a plane upside down. we have seen other scenarios, certainly, where it's broken apart, um, where it is heavily damaged, but usually staying right side up. i do want to ask you whether or not pilots and flight attendants train for this

particular scenario where the plane has gone topsy turvy and landed on its back. >> well, i don't know if they specifically trained for an upside down evacuation. uh, it's a hard emergency to model in training, but i can assure you that almost every conceivable scenario fire on one side and not the other. uh, ripped open, uh, fuselage. there's every conceivable we even brief and train water landings and ditching. so it doesn't surprise me, although it does make me kind of proud to see how wonderful those flight attendants handled and how the first responders were there almost immediately. and it shows you a little known fact that of all aircraft accidents, 75% survivable survivability rate of aircraft accidents. and that's because the vast majority of them, uh, happen either on landing or takeoff. so most

people usually survive. and it's because we have amazing survivability built into these aircraft when when things go awry. and we have very, very, uh, proficient, uh, first responders, flight attendants, pilots. um, it's really a tribute to them. >> yeah, it truly is. you see, some of the flight attendants helping people out, and they're smiling and they're calm and they're just sort of doing their job with a smile on their face, trying to reassure people as they have just been through this, the pilots and the and the flight attendants themselves. terrifying situation where they were upside down. um, and to see that everyone survived is truly remarkable. i do want to ask you this because, as you know, um, politics has played into what is happening at the faa. it's played into, uh, the, the, the deadliest, uh, plane crash so far this year that happened over the potomac. um, the faa and its workers have have been under a bit of attack by the president,

and the administration is laying off hundreds of probationary employees. is this a good idea? right now, when we know that the faa is already, uh, lacking when it comes to the number of employees it needs or for nothing else, the optics of it all. >> yeah, it's these are very, very interesting times. of course. um, so i think the effort is to reduce the total headcount in government. and i, and i will tell you, the faa is not immune from that. but i do know that the, uh, recent riff, as we used to call it, reduction in force as it applies across the government will not apply to safety officials and safety workers at the faa who are responsible for critical safety items like controllers and safety inspectors and mechanics. they will be exempt from from

whatever they're doing with the probationary employees. >> yeah, i think it was radar workers. but there is some concern that safety will be touched here. um, is there anything else that you can glean from what you saw today on that runway? and can you reassure the public that it is safe to fly? it is hard for people to to believe that in some sense, just looking at these pictures, though, everyone did survive and expected to be all right. >> on site. >> yeah. i mean, the only thing i can remind the public is that it is the safest way to travel. and you, you've all talked about how horrific this looks, and yet 80 people walked away. some some injuries, but nothing life threatening. and you mentioned the accident we had at dca a couple of weeks ago. it was the first commercial airline crash in the united states in 16 years. um, that is no solace, of course, for those who lost loved ones in that crash. but it is

still exceedingly safe. and the faa is very, very good at inspecting aircraft, checking out pilots and controlling air traffic. >> generally, more people die in car accidents than they do in plane crashes. dan elwell, thank you so much for joining us. we really appreciate your time for being here tonight. >> thanks for having me. thank you. >> more on our breaking news. will discuss what investigators will be looking to as they examine this plane and the upside down evacuations passengers faced. you're watching cnn's special live coverage. >> caplyta thinking of updating my kitchen? yeah. yes. this year, we are finally updating our kitchen and subway tile and an ivory or eggshell cream, maybe bone. don't get me started on quartz. big, big island. you ever heard of a waterfall? >> count for everyone who talks about doing that thing, but never does that thing. >> little breakfast nook.

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exactly how these things go down. what is the first thing you think investigators should look at or will look at? >> well, one thing that stands out to me real clearly is the fact that this aircraft, when he when peter, i think it was the eyewitness said that they hit hard up front. typically if this was an aircraft that had undergone a side a side wind or some kind of gust, you wouldn't describe it as a hit hard like nothing happened before then. so the first thing i'd be looking for is to see if a physical inspection of the airplane to see if the landing gear is still in the in the wing or not in the wheel wells, because that would tell you whether they were extended or not or whether they were crushed on the landing. those are the first things i would look at. also, look at the fuselage to see if it has any cracks or bends in it from that hard landing. but that would give you a lot of clues as to what actually happened with that airplane. >> you can you can see in the pictures just, you know, from the video that we're seeing, not close up, that the plane's missing a wing and a tail, and

it looks like there's some blackening there from what it was described as, as a fireball by one of the passengers. what does all this tell you? i mean, is it possible that perhaps the wing hit and maybe flipped it over or something else? >> well, i think the wing hitting or the flipping over was subsequent to the initial impact. so that's one of the things that i was mentioning before about this hard hit. now, one of the things that i'm so impressed with, and, you know, i've been doing safety for a long time with the faa and trying to get we. someone had talked earlier about the 16 g seats and the fact that it made these survivable. so for someone who's worked so many years in this, in 1987, there was an airplane, crashed a dc nine in denver that turned upside down. and i was there for that. and this aircraft did not have the 16 g seats, and there were 25 people that perished in that, and we weren't able to get them out. in addition, the wings didn't break away when that

aircraft rolled over like it did in this one. and that's actually by design. it's supposed to do that. if it didn't do that, it would have torn the fuselage in half and certainly would have resulted in fatalities. so for me, i know i have a strange perspective, having done a lot of aircraft accidents, but for me to see everyone walk away in this case, and it is testament not only to the the flight crews and how they got everybody out, but also what went on before. long before this aircraft accident, to make sure that these kinds of things are indeed survivable. >> you just said something that sparked my interest because i hadn't heard this before. this is why we have you on. um, and that is that. the wings, one of the wings sort of broke off. we would all assume that that was a default. not by design. why is that? >> well, i'll go back to this 1987 accident. so the wings did not break off on that aircraft. it was a dc nine. wasn't designed for that. it was supposed to be as strong as possible. so in that case, it

rolled over and the wings were still on the aircraft. so when we were trying to get the get the people out of the airplane, the wing continued to push down and was causing additional fatalities because of the fact that we couldn't get the aircraft back in the right place. so in this case, with them breaking off, it allows the aircraft to slide slowly to a stop and remove all that inertia without destroying the aircraft as the wing is torn off. so those are some of the and there are many others. we don't have time to get into that actually made this a survivable accident. and i am so thrilled to see that all the work from the faa and the ntsb and all the safety engineers along the years, over the last 40 years, have created an aircraft that was survivable in this situation. >> the design and the people both helped make this happen. i do want you to listen to a survivor who had this to say about evacuating the aircraft. >> it was mass chaos. i was

upside down. the lady next to me was upside down. um, we kind of let ourselves go and fell to hit the ceiling, which is surreal feeling. um, and then everybody was just like, get out, get out, get out. we could smell like jet fuel. um, even now, i smell like jet fuel. um, and then we just crawled out the back of the airplane. the firefighters, the emts were there right away. >> were there so quickly. and you hear they were upside down, so everyone was upside down. the pilots, the flight attendants. and yet they were able to help people off. are you amazed at how calm they are and smiling at each passenger? they pull out? >> i really am, i'm so impressed with that. and not only that, but the airport. you know, preparedness starts at the top and and i forget the ceo's name. i think i wrote it down. deborah flint, the ceo of that airport safety and preparedness starts at the top. and that ceo needs credit for all that she has done to prepare for this, to be able to have that truck out there as quickly as it was, if he's

covered in jet fuel, if that flame had gone any further, that would not have been a good situation. but they were able to extinguish those flames right away. and it starts at the top and goes right down to the person who is actually applying that foam. so i am so pleased with how that all came out. but trying to sit upside down in an airplane, i've done this before in a certification test for the airbus a380 over in toulouse, france, and trying to be upside down in an airplane and have the guts to pull that belt and fall down straight down onto your head is not something you take lightly. i'm so proud of how everyone reacted. they left everything on board. the flight crew was guiding people out, guiding them, calming them, keeping them assured that they're safe. it was just, uh. it was so amazing how everything came together properly for this accident. >> and thank goodness it did. everyone survived that crash. david. susi, you are such a marvel and a great source of information, and we really appreciate you coming on. >> thank you sir.

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800) 217-1487 now or visit us at. gofundme.com. >> cnn this morning with kasie hunt. tomorrow at 5:00 eastern. >> tonight. are americans happy with doge and its deep cuts? this afternoon's near disaster in toronto is the latest high profile aviation accident in recent weeks. right now, there are federal aviation agency investigators heading north of the border. but as the crash is in canada, it is being investigated by canadian authorities as well. we're also learning that doge, the elon musk led agency, is already beginning its purge of the agency charged with keeping u.s. sky safe. my panelists are here. this seems a bit counterintuitive. i'm going to start with you, my friend scott jennings um, the ap reporting that their employees that are

being laid off are on probationary status. so it's easier to lay them off because they're still on probation. they include radar landing and navigational aid maintenance. but isn't there already a shortage at the faa? why do this now, especially considering what's happened in the states? and now, of course, you have this other incident and a few others. >> yeah. >> well, this one happened in canada, but i mean, i can only tell you what the secretary of transportation says. there are 45,000 employees at the faa. we're talking about fewer than 400 people. and he says zero air traffic controllers and critical safety personnel were let go. so if that's true, i don't really have a problem with it, to be honest with you. i do like the idea of keeping the people who are in the direct chain of command of safety and the air traffic control system and so on and so forth. but i have a hard time believing that there is a single government agency that doesn't have a bloat of administrative personnel that we could probably do without. and i think that's why a lot of voters are happy that donald trump and elon musk are finally going through the federal

government and trying to take out some of this bureaucracy that we probably just don't need. so i'm reading to you what sean duffy says. he's the secretary of transportation. i have no reason to doubt his his numbers. >> um, karen, when you when you hear this, i mean, look, americans are concerned about bloat in the federal government. they have been for a very long time. what do you make of how it's been meted out? >> so the concern that i and i think a lot of americans have, we can all agree there's bloat. we can all agree that we need to deal with that at the same time. what we're seeing is speed for the sake of creating momentum to create a sense of things are happening at the same time. look what happened friday. we had nuclear scientists fired, and then they said, oops, we need those people because they have a technical skill that nobody else has. so the problem that i have with the way they're doing it is what? and i went to the doge website to see if they would say anything about, look, we are conducting this process to make sure we don't harm american safety, their health, or take

money out of their wallets. they don't say that. and so and we're finding out the consequences and the impact of some of these things. if you're a doctor for the v.a. in the midwest and you're told you're going to be fired or you're waiting for this court to play out, what are you supposed to do with your client? who is the veteran who has got ptsd? are you trying to find them? someone else to go see because you're not sure if you're going to be there in two weeks, or are you assuming you're going to? you'll be spared because someone will figure out that it's probably not smart to get rid of doctors who are at the va, who may be working on a critical function. so that's the concern. i think this could have been done with a lot more thoughtfulness about how do we protect people's safety. even if you say, look, we're going to take two weeks at each agency and try to do some kind of rubric to to make an assessment, not putting it into an a.i. system, by the way, which is some of what we've read that they've done. and i think what we're going to find is a number of these oops moments that could be dangerous.

>> i just think they need to read the room. i mean, there have been three major plane crashes and just, you know, less than a month. one of them was just a few blocks from the high school i went to. and in northeast philadelphia. and, um, you know, tell that to the little boy with the metal in his head trying to protect his sister during that, that plane crash. i think that not only do you have to protect the safety of americans physically, but i think you have to protect our safety mentally. you know, we see you laying off people from the faa at this point. nobody at the faa is is dispensable. i think you have to keep everybody there. at least, you know, for the for the time being, because we've had these major plane crashes that you haven't seen in 16 years. >> kevin, the optics of this. >> no, no. >> i'm referring. >> to i think the issue is they're not whacking enough. there's this concept in private equity when you get a bankrupt company and you go in there, you cut 20% more than your initial

read, and then you find, like a pool of mercury, the organization gels back together again. always cut deeper, harder when there's fat and waste. the faa, it's not the people. the code is cobalt. it's from the 60s. it needs capex put into it for the technology. we upgrade it to make it safer. fat like a chicken. all of these agencies are like big fat chickens dripping over a barbecue of fat. this is the best barbecue i've ever seen, but i don't think it's happening fast enough. they're not cutting enough. keep slashing. keep hacking while you have a 24 month mandate before the midterms. cut cut cut cut cut cut. more. more cutting. believe me, it's going to work out just great. >> everybody with the nuclear codes cut them to. >> cut everything. because if you don't see what they're doing and they can't show you that they're adding value, you whack. >> ensure that they're even asking people to show them. show us what you do again. this was a

story friday and literally elon said, oops, we got to we got to rehire them because nobody knows how to do what these people know how to do. >> they okay gets it wrong once in a while. big deal. so what? >> i agree. >> with that. percent of the time. >> it's okay. i actually think it's okay if they run into a stumble here or there, because the project is so massive. the need to cut is so massive. the government is so massive. it is. it's inconceivable that you wouldn't make a mistake here or there. but i think that's acceptable if the greater goal is achieved, which is a smaller government, more efficient government. if someone in the fed. >> even if someone is someone dies, or even if someone because are you. >> alleging that someone has died from this? >> i don't we don't know. i'm talking about when the rubber meets the road. i'm talking about, for example, kansas city, 30,000 government employees might be laid off. it will destroy the economy of kansas city. that's okay. >> why do. >> you say that? >> i because i'm reading what the individuals from kansas city have been saying, that they're very concerned. >> do you think they're going to say when they're going to get whacked?

>> of course they're going to say that. but my point is, do we think that's smart to live in american city? just go under. >> how many american cities need a massively oversize federal government to stay afloat? i mean, isn't that says more about the city than the government? >> but when do we get to the. >> point where presidents are measuring themselves by how many people they put out of work, instead of how many people they get jobs. >> for a moment too soon? this moment. >> is crazy. this is. >> because the government. >> only if they're big, fat chickens. hopefully they lay some eggs and maybe then we can afford it. >> this strikes me as something. >> that was done just for the sake of. >> doing. >> and i don't. i think it was a tone deaf move. it wasn't a big enough cut to do anything. it was a completely tone deaf move. i mean, i find people are always interested in efficiency as long as it doesn't affect them. >> and it's. >> strange to me that we've got enough people to. >> go and. >> ride around the racetrack behind the presidential limousine and such, and to guard three residences. >> and we're. >> never cutting people from there. but to come now and make. >> sort of. >> a tone deaf move. to cut the faa. is again, this is just a this is an image thing. and they want to be seen as doing something.

>> michael moore, i want to ask you about what your take is on the fact that doge is expected to gain access to the irs, and this has caused a lot of stir, obviously, because everything from your address, how many kids you have, who you married, what business you're in. that's all in there. all of your information, what you make, who you donate to, what do you make of them sort of being able to access some of this? >> yeah. i mean, i think there's really. >> a few places that we're. >> as protective. >> of our privacy as in our. >> social security. >> information and our health records. and just like i wouldn't want elon musk and his friends going through my doctor's office looking at my health records, just to see if they might find something where they can cut. i don't think we necessarily need them in our in our irs office. you know, this is not this has gone sort of from an efficiency move to almost an enforcement move. now, maybe that's what the e is for in doge. they're wanting to go in and hunt out criminal enterprises and hunt people who are doing for fraud. that's not

what this was set up for. this was sold as an idea that we're going in and sort of look at it, you know how many number two pencils and staplers are and where can we cut and trim back? not that we can then use the information that we gather to go track people down and try to sort out fraud from the taxpayer. that's not what efficiency is. there's an agency to do that. doj does this. they prosecute people who commit tax fraud. but but for us to go in and let his people kind of look through the records and try to find fraud. i think it's a it's a bad slope. >> for stating the obvious. it doesn't matter what any of us around this table think, it really will matter as the rubber meets the road, how americans feel. and we know that the polling is a little bit mixed. there are people. really? yes. >> so far, so good. well, let me loving this. the first. >> time ever. there are. >> no time. ever. you're asking government to actually say, what do you do with my money? >> 66% of americans are saying they're not doing enough to lower costs. and they're saying that at a time when inflation is up, unemployment is up. gas,

groceries, rent costs are up. and while we see trump using his power to strong arm putin or try to, you know, go after the associated press or paramount, we don't see him using that power to say, i'm going to lower your cost right now. you said. >> i was going to do this. >> he got. >> elected on this mandate. >> but i think. >> the american people are tired of the waste. you want me to fix it? >> they didn't vote to have elon musk going rooting through their data. but my point is something different. my point is, ultimately, i don't care who you are. i don't care if you're joe biden or you're donald trump. if people don't feel like you have materially made their lives better, if people don't feel like you got inflation down or cost down, you will pay the price and the people will pay the price. are the republicans who are up in the midterms. >> it was funny that he said, you know, he said, yes, i'm going to cut government. i'm going to cut waste. i'm going to cut fraud. i'm going to you know what else? he said? he was going to cut prices. that hasn't happened. >> that's not. >> what that that's not

something you want that for. in three weeks he could fire 8000 people. do you think it is a. >> legitimate political debating point for the previous administration to have overseen historic inflation over four years, and then you to come out and say four weeks? i guess trump's a failure. >> he said on day one, i will lower your grocery. the government has not done it and prices have gone up. >> on your point. i agree with you that the ultimate measurement of him will be on whether people feel less economic anxiety. i disagree that he hasn't done anything. a lot of his executive orders were aimed at energy, which is the, i think, the fastest thing he can do. >> energy, energy. >> energy regulations. but really what he does now, over the next couple of months with the congress, i mean, his real agenda will come in the reconciliation bill, taxes, energy, immigration. i mean, the stuff he really ran on, that's where the real policy rubber hits the road. and he's going to have to get these guys in congress to go along with him. and they're obviously, you know, working on it right now. but if they cannot get that done, that will be a problem. but i think they'll get there. >> by the way, elon musk has no executional mandate. he can just he's unique. he's got his own

international broadcast network called x. he just finds these issues. he 48 hours publishes them and you read them and every american goes, what is this? >> i've checked. >> let me. >> to that. there's no executional rights. >> to that point. he is using x and he is using the website doge. and you can you can go on the website and sort of, you know, track. some of it. >> it doesn't always. >> like it. >> but the thing was what he. >> did, something that that has that struck me and that has kind of come up recently, you know, doge has gotten some things wrong. we know that they're going to write. here are some of the things that they've gotten wrong. usaid did not give millions of dollars in direct grants to politico. it did not fund the visits of celebrities to ukraine. it did not fund the send $50 million worth of condoms to gaza for hamas, nor anywhere else, actually. and it did not pay $84 million to chelsea. >> $200 million versus billions that they have. >> what i am saying though here

is this is false information that is put out then on x and then it is used to troll people, including those who have gotten some of these grants, who are regular americans just trying to live their lives. and some of the information is. >> information on social media. oh, no. >> right. >> but when the owner is. >> working. >> the government is working. it's a problem. >> he has no accountability. >> so is this a good way to do business? is what. >> i'm saying. it's great, i think, because all it's doing for the first time ever is saying, look, here's a guy that's getting paid. nothing that is doing this as a patriot and saying, look, i have this remarkable executional skill. you can't say elon musk doesn't deliver on what his mandates are putting people into space and landing rockets. >> and space. >> i mean, look, let's just give the guy some credit. he can deliver. you may not like him, but he's saying, look, i own this network called x. i paid $45 billion for it. let me go

>> we're asked her, what's right, which makes it a problem that he can go in and look at all the government data and see everybody who gets paid, see paid that's doing the astronauts. >> are there other competitors? we can't do it. we hired him to do it. >> can i just remind you, though, spacex, the last launch they did, it blew up. so if that's who we're counting on to bring the. >> are you are you. >> really. are you. >> was there are you really casting aspersions on this company? >> i'm just. >> saying, i think the. >> ring of patriotism about musk might be more true if he had divested and was not still doing

contract and business work with the government, and he does have exclusive access to information, uh, without going through the background checks and the other things that we expect people to do. i mean, he basically is just a he. >> has security clearances, though. he's had it for a long time. >> but he can get anything he wants to now from the from from trump. and he's and he's. >> sending this to a break. this is a good conversation. we are going to talk about something coming up that i know a lot of you folks talk about quite a bit. does europe need to step up? is donald trump going to capitulate to russia, or does he have some other plan? the united states benching ukraine from key negotiations for now? what we know and what we expect after this. >> there are so many reasons why the pros work with belgard. for starters, we're pro quality because your jobs deserve the absolute best. we're pro innovation because belgard knows efficiency boosts your bottom line. we're pro partnership because working together means working better. but most of all,

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country, with russia first. that was more than enough to spark a frenzy of diplomatic fury across europe. it sparked european leaders to convene a last minute meeting in paris. the main topic the assembled countries want to find consensus on what sending troops to ukraine would look like and what american backing they can get to make sure any deployment would have teeth. foreign affairs analyst reena ninan is joining me now. thank you so much for being here. >> cord on this issue, they are the brokers. they're hosting these toss. what's interesting is there's a big worry on the ukrainian side that the trump

administration will cut and then whatever gains they have made on the battlefield would be lost, and that sovereignty and territorial gains, but more so the bigger concern, sara, is what are the security guarantees? >> and that's also an issue for russia. we've heard them say, no, nato is not on the table. and then we heard secretary of defense hegseth last week say, yeah, you know, nato's not going to happen. and then you saw the senator from mississippi, republican senator wicker, come forward and say, wait, that's a rookie mistake that the defense secretary made. you can't telegraph before you go into negotiations. what's going to happen? >> yeah. and hegseth also also saying, look, you're not going to be able to keep the territory that russia has taken in 2014, which is the crimean peninsula. i want to ask you whether or not you think that that europe can cobble together a plan without the united states, or maybe hoping to get some guarantees from the united states. >> and that's the that's the big question. what are the security guarantees that are in place? it's ukraine needs it. they will get eaten alive by russia. russia will be more

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>> all right. we will wait and see. reena ninan, it is a pleasure to have you on tonight. and thank you for watching news night. cnn's coverage continues in just a bit. >> when it's time to start your business, it's time for shopify design with easy to customize themes. sell everywhere people shop and never miss a sale with the world's best converting checkout. see why millions of businesses sell with shopify. start your free trial today. >> this fundraiser. >> with the chase mobile app. things move a little more smoothly. deposit checks easily, and send money quickly. that's convenience from chase. >> sometimes it takes a different approach. >> great. let's go with that one. >> to see the possibilities all around you. at capella university, you'll learn in-demand business skills relevant to the career you want. >> psoriasis all over. i couldn't get my hair done. >> then psoriatic arthritis.

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