billion in trust funds now available. if you or a loved one has been diagnosed with mesothelioma. call one( 800) 217-1487 now or visit us at. gofundme.com. >> you're in the cnn newsroom. i'm jessica dean in new york. >> and tonight. >> confusion and chaos is spreading within a number of agencies across the federal government, as many scramble to respond to an email ordered up by elon musk. that cryptic and unclear email sent to government employees asking, quote, what did you do last week? and then asking them to respond with a list of accomplishments before monday at midnight. and according to musk, failure to respond could result in their dismissal. now, amid the confusion tonight, multiple agencies apparently caught off guard by the emailling their employees to simply not

respond until they receive more guidance. and that includes the fbi, the cia, the pentagon and the state department. on top of that, we have more breaking news just coming in as all usaid employees, with a very few exceptions, have just been notified that they will all be placed on leave starting at midnight tonight. now, this is following a federal judge's decision on friday that paved the way for this move. cnn's senior white house reporter, kevin liptak is joining us now. kevin, let's start first with this news really just breaking involving the u.s. agency for international development and its employees all around the globe. what are you learning about this? >> yeah, this is just the latest step in the trump administration's assault on usaid. last week, a federal judge clearing the way for the administration to essentially decimate the ranks of this agency. and today, agency officials learning that virtually the entire usaid workforce will be placed on

administrative leave, receiving an email notification that as of midnight tonight, all usaid direct hire personnel, with the exception of designated personnel responsible for mission critical functions, core leadership, and or specifically designated programs, will be placed on administrative leave globally. in addition, the agency says that 2000 people who work for usaid will be fired as part of this effort to really strip that agency of all of its power. already you've seen the administration remove the signs from that agency's headquarters just over town at the ronald reagan building. you've seen a number of officials already being stripped of their duties inside that agency. what elon musk and donald trump say they're doing is trying to eliminate liberal programs, programs that they allege are fraud. but when you talk to people who work at usaid who advocate for its programs, they say that this could cause serious hardships not only for the officials who are working for the american government

abroad, but for the people whose benefit this agency has been to their benefit. people who are working on the ground trying to prevent disease, trying to prevent hardships in places like africa, like asia. third world countries around the globe who say it could significantly be affected by these moves. jessica. >> there could be a lot of ripple effects. i do want to also ask you about this email from directed by elon musk to be sent out and the confusion amongst a lot of agencies, a lot of federal employees who are getting that email, but also receiving something else, maybe for for their from their bosses. what more can you tell us about that? >> yeah, it's injected a huge amount of uncertainty into the federal workforce, which had already been rattled by the first month of trump's administration. but what i think is interesting now is it's not just the rank and file employees who are confused about how to proceed. it's some senior leaders at these agencies, including trump appointees, who are scrambling one to discern whether this email is actually

legitimate, but two, how to instruct their agencies to move forward. and what we've seen today is a number of different agencies telling their employees not to respond. so, for example, we saw the pentagon tell its employees that it was responsible for reviewing their performance and that when and if required, it would coordinate responses to that email going forward. you also saw kash patel, the new director of the fbi, tell his employees something similar, saying, for now, please pause on any responses you've heard from the state department saying that it would respond to this email and that they should not respond to activities outside the department chain of command. so what i think you're starting to see is some daylight between these trump agency officials and elon musk. it's something we haven't necessarily seen up to this point. and it does appear as if a standoff could be brewing between some of these trump appointed heads and the doge. the department of government efficiency. when it comes to who has responsibility

for these federal agencies? >> yeah. and who ultimately is in charge, right. kevin liptak at the white house for us. thank you so much for that reporting. let's turn now to developments in ukraine, where officials are tonight blaming moscow for a drone attack on the eve of the third anniversary of russia's full scale invasion of ukraine. officials say five regions across the country were targeted. at least one person in south central ukraine was killed. all of this as ukrainian president volodymyr zelenskyy announced, he is ready to step down if it means bringing peace to his country. >> if you really need me to leave for the sake of peace, i am ready to do so. i am focused on security for ukraine today, not in 20 years time. and i'm not going to hang around in power for decades. >> that stunning concession coming after president trump called zelenskyy a, quote, dictator earlier this week. and just days after the u.s. and russia held talks aimed at ending the war, talks that were

held without any ukrainian officials. cnn's chief national security correspondent, nick paton walsh, is live in kyiv now with more details on this. and, nick, i know you were at that press conference with president zelenskyy. what did he tell you? >> yeah, i mean, look, it's important to put a bit of context into his remarks about resigning if it brought peace to ukraine or if ukraine became a nato member. the latter idea, well, that's been ruled out by the americans. certainly in the immediate future. so ukraine is not likely to become a nato member to cause zelenskyy to need to hand over his presidency to somebody, and also to his suggestion that he would do that if it meant peace for ukraine. well, just the act of him stepping aside would either cause elections or some sort of anointed successor. i have no idea how any of that would even work. that would cause turmoil and so likely no peace. so it's farfetched, i think the remote, the circumstance in which this might occur. but the mere fact that he is suggesting that he could potentially step aside

comes after a very bad week in relations with washington, where the personal acrimony between him and president donald trump has been on display globally. and also, too, while they struggled to come to an agreement over rare earth minerals, trump wants to see half $1 trillion worth potentially given by ukraine to try and pay back for money. he says that they owe him and aid given under the biden administration. the publicly both sides still very far apart on that. and i asked zelenskyy about that deal and also his relationship with donald trump. do you think you can mend your relationship with president trump? and secondly, have the american side spelt out to you what happens if you don't come to an agreement over this rare earth minerals deal? in terms of what it means for u.s. aid. >> as i said, we want a successful agreement. and if we will understand each other with partners, i hope that it will be. we will sign this. the first agreement or memo memo on which

base we will. i mean, i will prepare other documents. so i hope that it will not have influence on other, uh, steps of the united states and they will not cancel or stop or freeze any support, especially military support, to ukraine. this is crucial for us. >> the president. >> my relationship with president trump. it's never was in such. best way. >> now. awkward laughter there i think because it's been a horrific week frankly for those two men's relationship. it's been in freefall. but it's really the rare earth minerals deal that is such an urgent issue now for ukraine. it isn't clear what happens to u.s. aid, military and otherwise. if that deal is not signed and publicly,

zelenskyy said in that same press conference he doesn't accept that ukraine is in debt with the united states. he sees the biden administration's contributions as grants, which indeed they were grants that had congressional support as well. so i think there's a lot of distance publicly between their positions. hard to see how they suddenly reconcile and maybe better work happening in private. and negotiations continue today. but his musing on his own fate and his relationship with donald trump, i think, just shows how precarious this last week has been. and, you know, we are really seeing a stark deterioration in u.s. ukraine relations. there has to be fixed fast for ukraine's sake. given russian advances on the front line. >> all right. nick paton walsh for us there in kyiv. thank you so much for that reporting. joining us now, former defense secretary and cia director under president obama, leon panetta. thank you so much for being here with us. i want to pick up there in ukraine, and i want to get your reaction to president zelenskyy's suggestion that he'd be willing to step down in exchange for nato membership for his country.

>> well, he's he's obviously trying to see if. >> there's a way. >> to be able to arrive at some kind of peaceful solution here. look, the fundamental problem here is that. ukraine has fought to protect their country. they've spilled blood in order to stop the russians from invading their country. and the fact is that the ukrainians, as a result of that, deserve a place at the table. you can't negotiate peace without having, uh, the country that has been invaded actually be part of those negotiations. and unfortunately, that's not what's going on right now. and it's creating a very confused and chaotic situation with regards to where we go. >> and do you see that situation that you just described,

negotiations with ukraine at the table as a realistic possibility, knowing what we know so far and seeing how this has gone so far. >> well, it should be. it should be. look, i you know, i, i understand that, uh, you know, the talk is that somehow president trump is a great dealmaker. i haven't quite seen that he made a deal in his prior administration with the taliban, and the result was we lost afghanistan as a result of that deal. he sat down for three meetings with kim jong un from north korea, and he failed to achieve any kind of deal with north korea. so i'm i'm a little bit hesitant to kind of assume that somehow he and putin, who is the adversary here, who is the tyrant who invaded ukraine, that somehow they could find a peaceful solution and impose it on ukraine? that simply is not

going to work. >> and a part of these negotiations and really as nick paton walsh is laying out the kind of this pressing issue, this mineral rights agreement, if there could be an agreement, if there is what it might look like. the secretary of state, marco rubio, said this week that he really sees the mineral rights agreement between the u.s. and ukraine as a security guarantee for ukraine, that if they're all in it together, it's a security guarantee. do you agree with that assessment? >> i look, i, i think to kind of hold up the ukrainians on mineral rights, uh, without providing any kind of security assurance as to what's going to happen with ukraine in the future, uh, is not going to work. it's not going to work. uh, now, if if you allow ukraine to be part of the negotiations, if you want to then discuss what happens with their mineral rights as part of a, of an overall solution, i can that

makes some sense. but to try to cut these deals separately, i mean, if i were zelenskyy, uh, i'd be wondering, why am i supposed to surrender some of my most important assets and get nothing in return? >> um, and i want to play a clip from white house envoy steve witkoff, who has been involved in these talks. this is what he told my colleague jake tapper. we can listen to that. >> the war didn't need to happen. it was provoked. >> it doesn't necessarily. >> mean it was provoked by the russians. there were all. kinds of. conversations back then about. >> ukraine joining nato. the president has. >> spoken about this. that didn't need to happen. >> what do you think of those comments and how do you think? speaking of president zelenskyy, how does he handle this? when when we hear, uh, various members of the administration up to president trump suggesting that it was ukraine that started this war.

>> well, you know, my my reaction is this is not peace through strength. it's peace through weakness. uh, and what, uh, what the administration is doing is simply, uh, capitulating to putin and his view of what happened here. look, uh, hitler was provoked. you could argue, uh, because somehow he thought he had a right to czechoslovakia and poland and other countries. um, but ultimately he invaded those countries and created world war ii. what's happening here is that, you know, regardless of who may or may not have been at fault. putin, the tyrant, invaded with 300,000 russian troops, a democracy, a sovereign democracy. uh, and just like hitler, uh, the reality is that putin is not going to stop until

he succeeds. and it is important for the united states to draw a line on putin. he cannot succeed, because let me tell you, if he does, it will send a terrible message not just to putin, but to shia and china, to kim jong un and north korea, and to the supreme leader in iran, that america is weak. >> mhm. and look, china has its eye on taiwan. to your point, everyone is watching to see what how this plays out. i do want to ask you before i let you go, you were the head of two government big very important government agencies. we have thousands of government workers right now who have this email at the direction of elon musk. there's a lot of confusion about asking them to list the five things they do. if they don't do it, it will be taken as a resignation. uh, it's it's just part of this broader effort, of course, to overhaul the federal government, dismantle huge parts of the federal government. um, what would you tell those those

federal workers? and they're confused because there's also at the fbi kash patel saying, hang on, don't don't respond. we'll take care of this. there's just a lot of confusion. >> there is there's a great deal of chaos. there's a great deal of disruption. uh, and that too, very frankly, is contributing to the weakness that america is viewed on by, uh, by not just our adversaries, but by our allies as well. look, there is a way to do this. i was omb director for bill clinton. we achieved $500 billion in savings, but we did it in an orderly way. we did it in the budget. we provided funds for those that were working. we we cut funds for those programs that were not working. and we did it in an orderly way. and that budget was passed by the congress. there is no order

here. there is no strategy here. this is simply elon musk, uh, waving his chainsaw, uh, and assuming that somehow that's going to work, it's not going to work, it's going to hurt people terribly, and it's going to hurt our country. >> and just to the people out there, because there are a lot of americans who see him waving the chainsaw. we saw it at cpac. there are people that are cheering this, this is what they want. but what do you say to them in terms of the maybe unintended consequences that that may come down the pike with the way this is being done? >> look, having had a lot of experience in government, there's a right way to do this and there's a wrong way to do it, the right way to get efficiency in government and the right way to reduce the size of government is to carefully analyze programs, to carefully analyze departments and agencies, to work with the leaders of those departments and agencies, and to then come up

with a budget that reflects those steps. that's the right way to do this. the wrong way is what they're doing now by issuing every other day some kind of order to some agency or other that they're going to fire everybody. that is not the way to run our government. it hurts people and it hurts our country. they've got to get their act together and do this right. >> all right, leon panetta, thank you for your time. we really appreciate it. >> thank you. >> still ahead, another concerning update on the pope's health. doctors now saying he has signs of kidney failure. we're going to be live in rome. and we'll also speak with the doctor about what this could mean for the 88 year old pontiff. you're in the cnn newsroom. >> i'm oren. >> liebermann at the pentagon, and this is. >> cnn. >> okay, everyone, our mission is to provide complete, balanced

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respiratory crisis that has now subsided. but as the vatican explained this evening, the blood tests have shown a mild and initial kidney failure, which they say the vatican is under control. but clearly this is a very complex clinical picture for the pope. he has been in hospital at gemelli in rome since last friday, and he's being treated for pneumonia in both lungs. it is a very concerning and critical situation. we were told by the vatican the pope participated in mass at the on the 10th floor of the gemelli hospital, where he is being treated, and we also received a message from the pope, a written message saying that he continues his hospitalization at the gemelli with confidence, and he is grateful for the prayers and well wishes that he has received. there have been an outpouring of prayer from across

the world for the pope. he's a very popular and much loved pope, and there were prayers said in rome today and in the vatican. clearly, this is an ongoing and developing situation for the pope. we are hoping to have more updates from the vatican tomorrow. jessica. >> all right. christopher lamb with the latest in rome. thank you for that reporting. and i want to turn to cnn medical analyst doctor jonathan reiner. now, he's also a professor of medicine and surgery at george washington university. doctor reiner, good to see you. thanks for being here. i just want to get your reaction first to this new news. the blood test showing mild kidney failure. what does that suggest to you? and how do you read that? >> yeah, jessica. >> it suggests. >> that the the pope is declining. >> now, uh, first of all, i'm impressed. >> with. >> the level of detail coming out of the vatican. the vatican. uh, typically an entity. >> like.

>> the vatican or buckingham. >> palace or the white. >> house would tell the public about the health of a principal. only what they, you know, really want the public to hear. >> and now. >> i think we're being told what the. >> vatican thinks we need. >> to hear. and the message is that the pope is is deteriorating. uh, the kidneys function to filter, uh, fluids and electrolytes and remove toxins. but the kidneys. themselves are very sensitive to to changes. >> in. >> the overall status of the patient, including blood pressure and overall, uh, whether the patient is septic and any, you know, serious illness can cause a significant decline in kidney function. >> uh, in. >> a critically ill patient like the pope, the kidneys are sort of the proverbial canary in the coal mine. and once you start to see kidney function deteriorate, that is often a very. ominous sign. and coming, uh, 24 hours

after what sounds like an urgent episode where the pope had difficulty breathing and needed to be placed on high flow oxygen, the decline in his kidney function suggests a significant deterioration in his overall status. >> um, and i know when we talked to you yesterday, you were you were reminding us that as a doctor, what you're looking for is kind of how they're doing over a period of time. what is the trajectory? are they getting better day by day or are they declining day by day? and so i'm curious what the next development. obviously this is a setback, as you just noted. what is the next development you would be watching for now as a doctor? >> right. >> so. >> uh, when. >> i talked to the family and patients who are critically ill, you know, i talk about the series of hurdles that the patients need to to get over in order to recover. and, and i urge patients and we go over these hurdles together, you know, uh, one by one. but again, as i said yesterday, we really want to start to see an overall

uptick in the patient's health. uh, their oxygen requirements starting to lessen. and we heard ominously yesterday that the pope's oxygen requirement was was worsening. uh, improvement in other metabolic, uh, indicators. and now, again, we hear today that the patient, that the patient and the pope has developed some evidence of kidney dysfunction. so these are all negative, uh, indicators. what i would love to see and hope to see. and i think what the world is praying to see, are messages saying, uh, things like the oxygen requirement for the pope, uh, is now significantly less, uh, the pope's kidney function has normalized. uh, the pope is starting to walk in the hallways. but what we're what we're getting. unfortunately, i think that the tenor of the messages from from the vatican is an overall picture of a critically ill man, uh, who does

not appear, at least at the current time, to be, uh, recovering very well. >> yeah. and just a reminder. yeah, he's 88 years old, has had problems with pneumonia before, had part of his lung removed years and years ago. so. all right, we'll wait for more information. but, doctor jonathan reiner, thank you so much for giving us some some analysis there. we appreciate it. >> thank you. jessica. >> still ahead. results are coming in after germany's elections. what? the far right party is on track to. why? where the far right party is on track to have their strongest showing since world war two. we're going to break it down for you. ahead. you're in the cnn newsroom. >> lockerbie tonight at nine on cnn. >> scout is protected by simparica trio, and he's in it to win it. simparica trio is. the first two with triple protection. o fleas. and ticks. >> o.

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>> 821 4000. >> germany's far right party is celebrating an unexpectedly strong showing in the country's national election. exit polls show the anti-immigration afd party surging to second place, with just under 20% of the vote. that is the strongest election showing for any far right party in germany since the nazi era. you can see the afd percentage there in red. the majority center right cdu. that's the yellow you see is predicted to win the election and the chancellorship with 28% of the vote. our fred pleitgen is in berlin. fred, help us understand here in america what this means for germany and what we're seeing play out. >> well, it certainly means a shift in germany towards more conservative politics, a bit of a shift to the right as well. and you're absolutely right. the conservative christian democratic union, they did win this election. so the next chancellor here in germany is most probably going to be friedrich merz, who is the head of the conservative party. and

folks at that party. i was actually there tonight. they were already talking about bringing germany's economy back on track. also, as far as migration is concerned, certainly trying to water that down a little bit compared to the schulz era. and olaf schulz and his time is apparently over in the chancellery. very soon, the social democrats, his political party, acknowledging that it was a huge defeat for for them, and friedrich merz then saying he wants to get going with governing as fast as possible to bring germany back on track. here's what he said. >> it's important that we. get a government. >> for germany. >> that is able. >> to act. >> with a good. >> majority in. parliament because. >> dear friends, the world outside is not waiting for us and it's not waiting for a long lasting coalition negotiations. we need to be able to act very soon so that we can do the right things domestically so that we are present, uh, in europe, so that the world takes notice and

sees that we have a reliable government in germany. >> so there you see him talking about forming a government quickly to solve all those problems he was talking about. the big problem is that you have to form a coalition here in this country. and the the conservatives have already said they're not going to work with the far right alternative for germany. so they are probably going to have to form a coalition with more left of center parties. and that could make it quite difficult to not only get that coalition going, but then to tackle a lot of those political problems as well. jessica. >> and we're also hearing from the afd after their surge, what are they saying? >> um. well, they're essentially saying, look, work with us because the what's called the centrist democratic parties here, like the conservatives, but also the sort of left of center parties. they've constructed what they call a virtual firewall around the alternative for germany saying they're not going to work with them. and the afd is saying that needs to stop. and they believe that the voters here in germany have spoken, and they want the afd to be in the

government. here's what one of their party leaders said. >> we have to get rid of all those people who are illegally under german law in germany firsthand. and then we have to get everyone out who came in from syria fleeing as such, and then celebrating the fall of assad in the streets of germany. so they have to go voluntarily. if they won't leave, we will help them out. i say with those from afghanistan. >> that, of course, also the political party that received a lot of help from elon musk during their election campaign, musk saying he believes only the afd can save germany, as he put it, much to the dismay of most of the other parties in germany who say they want to get governing without the afd in office. jessica. >> all right. fred pleitgen, thank you so much for that reporting. still ahead, what elon musk got wrong about why federal retirements are still processed out of a limestone mine. more on this when we come back here in the cnn newsroom.

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story. >> beneath the rolling hills of western pennsylvania really is just off some rural road. >> an old. >> limestone mine houses one of the most remote and secure government offices. >> you can see the entrance. >> it looks like that's about as far as you can. >> get before. >> you have to go through security. nearly 700 civil servants here process almost every retirement from the federal workforce. we're here in butler county because of recent comments that elon musk made about this facility and about the people who work here. comments that have really rocked this rural area. >> there's a. >> limestone mine. >> where we store all the retirement paperwork. >> from the oval office last week. musk criticized the operation as one that epitomizes government inefficiency. >> it's like a time warp, and the elevator breaks down. and then sometimes and then you can't. nobody can retire. you could do practically anything else, and you would add to the goods and services of the united states in a more useful way.

>> is this the freaking flintstones? >> those comments got a lot of pickup. musk wants to rescue these. >> government gremlins from working underground. >> does president trump promise we're going to shut this cave. >> down? >> yes he does. >> the federal workers here are on edge. they got a memo warning them not to talk to reporters. are you ready? >> yep. >> okay. how are you feeling? >> good. better. >> and yet, five of them and a former supervisor sat down with us because they say many of musk's claims were false, were masking their face and changing their voice because they're scared of retaliation. >> everybody's kind of been silenced. >> at this point. we all. >> need these jobs. >> tell me about that elevator. >> and the elevator breaks down. sometimes, and then you can't. nobody can retire. >> there's no elevator. no elevator at all. you walk down into the mine. it looks like any other office building. >> the most number of people that could retire, possibly in a month is 10,000. >> i'm not sure where that number came from. >> there's no limit. >> there's no limit. >> all the retirement paperwork

is manual. >> that is not true. >> it's not. >> built in the 1950s, transformed from a mine. it was renovated over the years into a temperature and climate controlled facility. it's owned by a company called iron mountain. and private companies also store vulnerable items like film reels and photographs. but it's not just musk who criticizes the processing of retirement claims. for years, this office has been criticized for processing too slowly overreliance on paper and insufficient staffing. some of the workers we spoke to agree the system needs updating, but completely shutting this facility down would devastate butler county, where the federal government is the biggest employer. it's also trump country. he got nearly two thirds of the vote here, and the mine is just 20 miles from the fairgrounds, where he was nearly assassinated. did you support? i did. i did. >> support president trump. yes. i think he's a president of the people.

>> that's the message. >> this area has. >> i need. >> two. >> large for the underground. >> jason mcbride is a supervisor in this tiny town. >> thanks for choosing. mcbride's to help you. >> and runs the only restaurant. this pizza shop. okay, but. >> what's your number? i'll give you. >> a. >> call when i'm entering. >> the mines. they deliver into the mine almost daily. >> i just. >> would. hate to. think that a stroke of a. >> pen in washington. d.c. could change. the future. of our area. >> whether you're. >> the the gas station or you're the pizza. >> guy, it's. >> it'd be. detrimental to all of. >> us if he shuts down that facility. will you still support him? >> i don't know. >> we'll have to. >> wait and see on that. good people dedicated their. >> lives to. >> this facility. >> for the federal. >> government, and they deserve. >> to be heard. >> who did you vote for in november? >> trump. >> first time. >> i ever voted. >> first time you ever voted. >> i was never even. registered to vote. >> before that. when he talked about government employees, we didn't think that was going to be us. i wish i could take it back because i feel like now my whole livelihood could be

changed because of him being president. >> all right, gabe cohen, thank you for that reporting. the final episodes of lockerbie, the bombing of pan am 103 airs tonight right here on cnn. and just ahead, we're going to be joined by an eyewitness in one of the first people to respond to that devastating crash. we'll talk to them. you're in the cnn newsroom. >> i'm hanako montgomery. >> in tokyo. >> and. >> this is cnn. >> hi. >> hi. >> chocolate fundraiser lovers. >> with a chase mobile app. things move a little more. >> smoothly. >> champion. >> i'm the champion. i'm number one. >> what? >> deposit checks. >> easily and. >> send money quickly. oh! >> i'm the champion. >> that's convenience from chase. >> make more of what's yours. >> saint jude, they gave it 110%

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that's something i want to believe. [skateboard sounds] will too. >> i can feel the. winds of change. >> it's the news. >> welcome back. >> but it's also kind of not the news. >> we don't fact. >> check it. >> we don't. >> care, man. why all the information on this show so terrible? >> have i got news for you? saturday at nine on cnn. close captioning brought to you by book.com. >> if you or. >> a. >> loved one have mesothelioma, we'll send you. >> a. >> free book to answer questions you may have. call now and we'll come to you. >> 821 4000. >> tonight, the final two episodes of lockerbie. the

bombing of pan am 103 air, right here on cnn. 270 people were killed on december 21st, 1988, including 190 americans when that plane blew up over scotland, crashing to the ground on its way from london to new york. it was the deadliest terrorist attack against the united states before nine over 11. and joining us now from scotland is colin dorrance. and colin, you were a new police officer, just 18 years old at the time, driving to lockerbie for a christmas party. when you saw that plane crash. you rushed to the scene. tell us about what you saw and those first moments. >> well. >> thank you for having me on, jessica. and yes, it was a it was a shocking, confusing time. uh, as you said, i was at that night was supposed to be about a christmas party. and, uh, fate had it. i was never going to get to that party. i was 30s away from the hotel, which was also very close to the crash site. and, uh, i witnessed, uh, what

turned out to be the wing section of the aircraft hitting sherwood crescent. had it been 20s further on the road, um, then i would have been involved in being struck by the debris and so on. uh, as it was, i diverted along, uh, a side road to the crash site and, um, it was it was confusing in that it was dark. so very few people saw and comprehended. this was an air crash. it could have been many people thought it was a local gas station that had exploded because it was near the crash site, too. um, and only 1 or 2 people really saw that this was an aircraft. they could hear, uh, engines roaring. i didn't, because it was in the car. um, it was only when i got out of the car and spoke to a police colleague of mine who was on duty that night. he heard jet engines, and we assumed, in

fact, initially it was a military aircraft that had maybe been on a flying mission, as it routinely were at that time that had been crashed into the town. little did we know, it was a boeing 747 on its way to new york. that that took about 40 minutes from the initial explosion to establish in lockerbie. it was only once we were told by air traffic control and what had happened that we were able to begin to even process what had happened. >> right. it's just so unbelievable. your brain can't even kind of go there until you, uh, you would never imagine that that's what would have happened. well, talk about the the small town of lockerbie, how it came together in the aftermath of this tragedy and what that was like. >> so lockerbie is is a small town of 4000 population. it's on the main routes, both rail and road, between glasgow and london. so we're used to having visitors pass through and pass by the town, but otherwise it's

a very small rural area. everyone knows everyone else. um, and it serves a large kind of rural area that the local villages all send school children to the main secondary school in lockerbie. um, and that's what happened to me. i actually didn't live in lockerbie at the time. i came from a village just outside, but went to school in the town with about 1200 other pupils. i had graduated from school, just, uh, attended police college and was away studying, you know, police work and so on. had just graduated from that and left and was on my first day's holiday for christmas, uh, when the tragedy happened. um, so i found myself back in my hometown where i went to school with this international, um, incident, uh, having unfolded right in front of me. and, uh, many of the people i knew and grew up with having to deal with that, the trauma of it. many residents saw things that really no one would

ever want to see. um, some of my school friends, uh, family were involved directly. no one in the town was was unaffected. it completely engulfed everyone because it was a high level explosion. there was a large debris field that affected the farms to the east of lockerbie for miles around. so hundreds of people were were traumatized by what happened and really shell shocked. christmas was just canceled. and and for weeks afterwards, no one lived a normal life. and in fact, the town hasn't really returned to a complete normal, even to this day, one way or the other. >> yeah, those experiences, that trauma, as you say, it doesn't go away. colin, thank you so much for being here with us, for sharing some of your thoughts about this. we really appreciate it. >> no. you're welcome. >> um, and tune in. the final episodes of lockerbie, the bombing of pan am 103 air tonight, sunday at 9 p.m.

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