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number two and defense secretary pete hegseth revealing answer about why the pentagon's top military lawyers are getting removed. all that tonight on laura coates live. so first, it was a fork in the road. now it was. what did you do last week? the latest directive from elon musk and the cost cutters at doge is sparking all sorts of headaches for federal employees. and where it stands tonight, frankly, is anyone's guess. now, it all started with this an email over the weekend telling workers to outline five accomplishments in the past week in bullet point form. by the way, all by 1159 tonight, basically, justify your job or face that doge chainsaw. but as has been the case with all

things doge, it seems there is some, you guessed it, confusion. the. a few hours ago that replying is actually voluntary. but now musk is posting that they'll be given another chance to respond a second time around will result in termination. now, he didn't say when that next chance will actually happen. remember, he had originally said over the weekend that not responding by tonight would be taken as a resignation. hence the phrase deadline. well, multiple federal agencies then told their workers ignore that request. the pentagon said it. the fbi, the state department. and that's just a few. that said, you could ignore the request. but president trump himself appeared to endorse the idea yesterday. hi, spongebob. how? well, by mocking doge with a spongebob meme, of course. and then today he backed up musk's threat that anyone who did not respond would be fired or sort

of fired. >> what he's doing is saying, are you actually working? and then if you don't answer, like you're sort of semi fired or you're fired because a lot of people are not answering because they don't even exist. >> how is one semi fired? i shouldn't ask that question. but as for those agencies that were telling their workers not to respond, trump says there's no disconnect. >> they don't mean that in any way. combatively with elon. they're just saying there are some people that you don't want to really have them tell you what they're working on last week. but other than that, i think everyone thought it was a pretty ingenious idea. >> now, it's not clear who everyone is. leadership at the health and human services department. so he does not think it was an ingenious idea. they're telling their employees tonight, quote, assume that what you write will be read by malign foreign actors and tailor your

response accordingly, unquote. so now, who are federal workers supposed to listen to? is the head of their agencies? is it government hr? is it elon musk? is it president trump himself? now, while workers and all of us try to figure out what they're going to do or what they should do, one bullet point list is certain. this directive has led to all kinds of contradictions. confusion, chaos, anger, and a wave of legal threats. here to discuss now the ongoing political fallout of doge former senior adviser to the trump campaign, brian lanza, and former senior adviser to the bernie sanders 2016 and 2020 campaign, chuck rocha. glad to have all of you here. i mean, i've just laid out the back and forth the who to listen to the what now, brian? how is this chaos productive? >> you know, listen, it's productive in the sense that donald trump and elon musk and

this administration want to make, you know, the employees and government uncomfortable. they want to make them uneasy. they want to make feel insecure. so ultimately they leave, like the whole point. >> is that a good plan, though, to make? i mean, they're doing actual work to so to have them so vulnerable in that way says could be very counterproductive. >> yeah. i mean, but at the end of the day, the american people said, you know, donald trump, we want you to shrink the size of government. and the only way you shrink the size of government is by actually getting rid of people. and it's disruptive, but government doesn't do anything. i mean, i remember obamacare when the website was launched, that was, you know, grossly, grossly underperforming and didn't meet the expectations. governance is sloppy. it always has been sloppy. it's never going to be perfect. and you've you've you've seen the democrats with the imperfection with respect to to governance. you've seen republicans with it being imperfect. but what you do here is you do here on saying, if we make a mistake, we're going to correct it as fast as possible. that's what government can do, is when there's mistakes that are made, they can recognize it and they can do it. that's the business approach and you see that taking place. but i do think the whole point of this is for unease among the federal workforce. so it's easy for them

to resign and leave. >> i think that shrink the workforce, shrink the federal government is a good bumper sticker. and i think lots of folks would agree with that. democrat, republicans and independents. if your mind is there, i think the implications of that are more scary. and i think that long as it's a theory and there's mass confusion, there's lots of folks that are scared in the federal government. but what you're really looking at here is when it's time for folks to come back to their jobs, you realize they have important jobs. if they get to come back to their jobs. not maybe every single one of them, but very important things in the government until it affects you. we'll start with the federal workers. there's lots of them, not in washington, d.c., but around the country. and then how does it affect you with things that are very important that happen that i didn't even realize inspections of food, bird flu vaccines, folks monitoring all of that and all the things that are hidden that just go on, we assume are being handled every day when they start having real effect on people. i think that's when you're going to see the repercussions. >> you know, i want you i want to hear more from you, but i also want to bring into our conversation for a special debate, frankly, on elon musk's

approach to people who know business quite well. shark tank's kevin o'leary, who is, of course, the chairman of o'leary ventures and former democratic congressman from new jersey, tom malinowski. a good pairing to have the two of you discuss this issue. i'll begin with you, kevin, because it turns out the first what did you do last week? that email was voluntary, but now musk is posting again, failure to respond a second time will result in termination. so how is it good that workers might not know who to answer to? and who should they answer to? >> well, first of all, if they're not answering after two times requested, are they dead? i mean. remember, a test? i mean, it's not it's not unreasonable to say, look, you work for the federal government. here's the email we have on record for you. we've requested a response and you haven't answered twice. i mean, what's

wrong with that? the rational person would say, yeah, this is not okay. and they're. >> being told not to respond by some of their employers, though. does that make a difference? >> no it doesn't. you know, i don't think that many people are that worried about this because no one has ever tested this before. you've got billions of dollars going out to hundreds of people, thousands, tens of thousands of people, and nobody knows if they're alive, be working. where are they? what are they doing? there's nothing wrong with this request. and the private sector, i do this every day. i ask, what are you doing? where are you? i mean, are you alive? this is not an unreasonable. the average person doesn't think this is unreasonable. so at the end of the day, okay, you know, elon musk is controversial. i got it. and this whole doge thing, you know, it's it's come on the

scene and it's very electric and controversial. got it. but if you're not working and nobody can contact you, what's wrong with asking? i see no wrong, i see no, no, no problem with this. >> well, let me bring you in here. and i must say, though i it bothers me when i hear people suggest that the only reason to cover what's going on with doge is somehow it's electric or somehow sexy to the media. these are consequential steps that they're being made. and so we're not focusing just for the sake of focusing. there is appropriate emphasis on what's so important for federal government. but, tom, we bring you in here. how do you see it? is the sledgehammer approach the way to cut the federal government? >> well, first of all, what what we just heard is total nuts. i mean, fbi agents don't work for elon musk. they they work for the director of the fbi, who knows exactly where they are and what they're doing. um, air traffic controllers don't work for elon musk. they they work for their agency, which knows exactly where they are and what they're doing. our generals,

our federal judges, our border patrol agents, none of these people work for elon musk. and they're all being told, don't answer these letters, because even some of my least favorite people in the trump administration, like, like kash patel, are telling us to go jump into a lake, because this is not the way that you run any organization. having some person from outside who has no clue what these people are doing, what the government does, um, wrecking absolute havoc. um, and in terms of look, let's talk about the impact on people's lives. um, a couple of weeks ago, elon musk sees a tweet from a conspiracy theorist on on his website saying that the lutheran charities of america are a money laundering organization. and so he cuts grants to the lutheran charities. it turns out what the lutheran charities do is they help run our foster care and adoption system in this country. he he fires people at the faa

whose job is to tell our airline pilots where the giant cranes and large buildings are going up so that we do not crash into them. he has no idea what these agencies are doing. he doesn't even ask the question. he goes in and fires people, terminates programs, causes immense harm to people who have been working for years for this country, patriotic americans, and to the americans who receive these services. and then he says, oh, whoops, i made a mistake. that's completely unacceptable and should be unacceptable to anyone who loves this country. >> and yet, kevin, you've got a full toothed grin. why? >> uh, because my cohort is full of crap. he has no executional mandate. he can't do anything. he just said he is just simply observing, pointing out and letting the american people know what he's found. and if you don't like it, okay, that's all right. but he does not have the ability to do what congress has to execute on his recommendations. so everybody

chill out. this is a guy that's focusing a lens on waste, corruption, huge budget oversees and saying, i don't think this is working, but he can't actually take a dime of any of this. so, you know. elon musk is the government is full of bs this guy is just pointing out what every american wants to know. if you're making $68,000 sitting at your kitchen, which is the average american watching this kind of waste, you're. you're really. which is about 70 or 80% of the population. so get over it. let him do his work. the guy has amazing executional excellence. you can't point out anything he's done that hasn't worked out well. >> wait. how can how can he have kevin? how can he have amazing executional excellence? and yet he is essentially impotent to do what you just described. those two things don't jive. he is. there are names and buildings that have been taken off usaid,

for example. i mean, he's been able to execute in part. what's your response? um, tom? >> well, he. >> look, i actually i agree with kevin. he has no authority to do these things, but he's doing them there. there are thousands of federal workers who have been fired. the grants that have gone out to these charities in the united states, not just around the world, to states, to to people who are doing work that serves us every single day. that money is frozen. so he has actually done these things and, you know, at the end of the day, this is one of the things that makes this so ridiculous, because what he's doing is illegal. the courts are going to stop it. congress is going to assert itself because congress has the power of the purse, but we're going to have to spend. >> eaton quite well, tom, you realize that's part. >> of i do, and i've been talking about that. but there is going to be a moment of truth in a couple of weeks, because we're going to have a big showdown over this when when the republicans try to fund the government, they're not going to be able to do it without the help of democrats. and this is

going to be resolved one way or another. the courts are also going to rule. i don't think the supreme court is going to allow the executive branch, whether it's musk or trump, to impound money that has been directed by the congress of the united states. and so we're going to have to spend even more money restoring the services and the jobs and the people that have been broken by this, this ridiculous process. the federal government is not a company that you take over. this may work on shark tank, but it's not a company that you take over and dismantle and sell for parts because you want to do it in a different way. you have to do things in accordance with the constitution. >> the smile is back. i think i know why, kevin, what's your thought? >> federal government is fat, dripping with fat, 100 years of never being scrutinized, never been examined, never looking for any efficiencies. finally, here's an individual that's willing to do it for free with extremely great executional

skills and people are uncomfortable. don't worry about it. the american people want to know how much waste is evident, and i think they're getting answers and it's not good. so, you know, you tom, i love it. you're absolutely right. but frankly, just between you and i, he's not cutting enough. you know, the concept of private equity when you find a broken, bankrupt company, you look at the spreadsheet, you say, okay, this is the original cut idea. you cut 20% more because it really hurts when you cut, you cut deep, you cut fast, you chop, you hack, and then you hire back because you don't want the trauma to everybody multiple times. i don't think he's doing enough. he's not cutting enough. we should cut more 20%, more. it's all fat. it's waste. there's so much waste in federal government. this is great for the american people. >> kevin. how can it be so great

to have if it's to rehire? first of all, the number 20% just seems completely arbitrary. i don't know where you're basing that off of, other than it sounds like maybe a an idea, but also i want to i want to hear your responses. but kevin, it doesn't make efficiency sense to say i'm going to crash and burn and then try to regrow everything and try to come back and figure out what i've done that was ineffective in the instance. isn't isn't an audit supposed to be? i'm going to take an assessment and then i'm going to decide the prudent course of action. why is it while i'm auditing, i'm getting rid of and then i'll figure out if it was a good idea that would that work in your business? >> yes. you can't be surgically precision. there's no way to be surgically precision in this. you have to cut more because you just don't know. there's no way to do it. remember, we've never audited government for 100 years. never done this before. you may not like it. >> tom doesn't think that's right. tom. what's your reaction to that? there's government is not. >> every agency, every agency of the federal government. it helps to know some things. if we're

going to have this debate, every agency of the federal government is audited by independent inspectors general. usaid was audited over 60 times last year. and one of the first things that donald trump and elon musk did was to fire all of the inspectors general. they fired the auditors and they put in charge this billionaire with his 50 child interns who know absolutely nothing about the federal government. and, kevin, like what you're talking about. it might work for a company that makes widgets, because we can do without the company that makes widgets for a few months while you get in there and you restructure it, you can't do that to the faa unless people aren't going to fly in planes for the next 4 or 5 months. you can't do that to the defense department unless you don't want to defend this country for the next 4 or 5 months. it's ridiculous that we're even having this argument, and i'm someone who believes there is waste in government, and there are ways to get at it, but not by firing everybody first, shutting things down while you investigate, do the

investigation, work with congress, work with these employees. do it right. it's been done before. >> kevin. tom, a fascinating conversation that will not end today. glad to have you both on to illuminate the issues. >> thank you. >> take care. >> back with brian lanza and chuck rocha. it's time for, you know, my favorite america asks. we have questions from our viewers. i want part of this table as well on this very topic. and jose from my hometown home state of minnesota asks this question, why is trump allowing veterans to be laid off? these veterans go into the office and do what they love with minimal pay. why is the president not standing up for us? brian, you want to take that? >> yeah, i wouldn't say that he's not standing up for him. i mean, he has a difficult decision to make. the choice of cutting government is is a decision between bad and worse. and he's making a he's making the decision as easy as he can be. veterans make a huge contribution. but at the end of day, when you're when your choice is bad and worse, you got to choose bad. and it's bad to cut veterans, but it's worse to do nothing. >> what's your response?

>> 33% of the u.s. workforce in our government are u.s. veterans, 33% in the private sector, it's just 5%. that's your mexican math for tonight. that means it overindexes and affects them. but i'll also say more numbers for you, laura, is that donald trump carried these veterans by huge margins. i'm giving brian credit. i'm giving trump credit. he carried them by a lot. i think in the midterms, you're going to see a lot of them that are mad, that are going to vote democratic. >> i mean, i like your hats. we're going to texas now. austin from texas asked this question, why are you all so upset that trump hired musk, which, believe it or not, was a running point that they made? chuck. >> i wonder if that was my cousin jake. anyway, i think that we knew that elon musk was going to be involved. he did not hide that. i give him that. but i don't think the american people, from what i've been doing now in polling, looking at the midterm elections, actually, that they knew he was going to have this kind of impact and this kind of sweet. we have a congress for a reason. you have to go to congress to get things done in these departments. they fund each of these departments. they didn't think that they could unilaterally go around it.

so i think that they've way overstepped. i think they knew he'd be involved, but. >> not ryan. what's your response to chuck's cousin? >> uh, chuck's cousin is right. i mean, everybody. >> knew that elon was going to be involved. everybody knew that president trump wanted to shrink the size of government. every republican candidate who has run for president in the last 30 years has talked about shrinking the size of government. the difference is we have somebody who's doing it and he's weaponized elon musk to execute, you know, promises made, promises kept. >> going to call and ask for money. you know that, right? >> ryan lanza, chuck rocha, thank you both so much. and viewers, keep those questions coming at cnn.com. forward slash trump 2.0 still ahead. he once said the january 6th pipe bomber was an inside job and that the fbi knows who it is now, the man behind that conspiracy theory is the number two at the fbi. what dan bongino's new job means for the agency and where it's headed. plus, was the quiet part out loud how defense secretary pete hegseth is defending the firings of top military lawyers.

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trump loyalists are now at the helm of the country's most powerful law enforcement agency. the president now choosing conservative media personality dan bongino to be second in command at the fbi. now he is a former nypd officer serving as a secret service agent for presidents george w. bush and barack obama. after unsuccessfully running for political office three times as a republican, bongino rose to prominence as a combative, pro-trump pundit and podcast host. here's a little sample of what he has said over just the past few years. >> the fbi has lost. it's broken, irredeemably corrupt at this point. but what the fbi did to donald trump, that wasn't law enforcement. it was tyranny. owning the libs is a lifestyle. you must own the libs repeatedly. you can't just own the libs once. it has to happen every day. power. that is all that matters. no it doesn't. dan, we have a system of checks and balances. that's a good one.

we need to set up a courtroom. donald trump can sit there. he can even wear like the wigs they wear in the in the uk court system. and he can just start making judicial decisions. >> i can't see that last part, but i want to bring in cnn chief media analyst brian stelter and former senior fbi official christopher o'leary. good to see you gentlemen here. i want to begin with you, christopher, because bongino, as i described his his his resume, he's never served in the fbi specifically. yet his number two role will include overseeing day to day operations. surveillance missions. are you concerned about his lack of fbi experience? >> i am i'm concerned about lack of fbi experience, but also lack of investigative and national security experience. he does have a background in law enforcement. he comes from the nypd. and that would be a great story if he could connect his street time in the late 90s with a career in the fbi. and now

he's the deputy director of the fbi. but he's missing that part in between. i'm the son of an nypd police officer. i would have loved to have heard that story. that's not the case here. he had a couple of years in the new york office of the the secret service, doing a couple of investigations. but then he was a trainer and doing protection in the secret service. he has no investigative experience and no national security experience. that is what the fbi does for its mission. >> brian, i want you to walk us through his transformation from secret service and nypd. as christopher has outlined now to a right wing firebrand. >> yeah, i've been following, you know, for years. although we did both block each other on twitter, it got pretty heated years ago. look, trump likes figures right out of central casting, and bongino fits the bill. he became a big star on fox news during the first trump term. he was saying all the things trump wanted to hear, including denigrating the fbi.

you know, he's a macho figure, someone who's out there trying to pick fights and stoke fights. and that's the thing about bongino. the incentives for television and radio and podcasting are very different than the incentives for government service. you know, bongino was incentivized to throw punches to channel people's rage and resentments, to stoke fears, to promote conspiracy theories, including trump's theories about the 2020 election. he was a big pusher of the big election lies in 2020. those were the incentives for bongino at fox and then later on the radio, on podcasts at rumble, a right wing video website. those are just very different incentives than what he now steps into at the fbi. >> so, christopher, based on that track record, what does that look like for those who are serving under him? are these are they going to compartmentalize these statements or is it a totally different universe? they don't think about what's the reaction from those inside the fbi or something like that. >> so i've been on the phone nonstop. people think it's a fever dream. so i mean, he lacks the the character, the disposition. i mean, clearly not

the experience, but he the same person that has championed the false narratives and the disinformation to undermine the trust in the fbi is now being put in a leadership position in it. it is destined for failure. he will not get the trust and confidence of the fbi employees, and he's doing a disservice to kash patel, who needs a senior trusted law enforcement advisor to help him navigate these early days. >> so what's the consequence? the american public then? >> it's going to impact operations. the american public will suffer. it will be a less safe country. the fbi is the lead counterterrorism organization for the u.s. government. the fbi is the lead counter espionage organization for the u.s. government. we go after transnational organized crime pedophiles. we take off the street. so for all the goals that president trump wants to enact in driving down crime and making the country more secure, this is negatively impacting

this. this is counterproductive. >> brian. this is not a senate confirmation position. and i wonder how lawmakers are going to reconcile the conspiracy theories that both bongino and kash patel incentivize for different reasons have spread. will their promises to do their job lawfully? will that be enough? >> well, frankly, i don't think they can. i don't think these can be reconciled. these are both retribution hires. it's exactly what president trump wants. i went back and looked at the bongino trump relationship. these two men have been friendly for years. there was an interview with trump on his radio show last october and then again just last month. so you're not going to hear any gripes from trump. this is exactly what the president wants. but the two things cannot be reconciled. laura. >> of course, they have been consistent in saying if they believe it's broken, the outsiders will fix it. we'll see how this all unfolds. brian stelter christopher o'leary. thank you both. up next, the pentagon purge hitting some of the military's top lawyers. so why exactly would you target

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sitters and nannies like what you like. they create kids and adventures and their sensations to. get started today at sitter city. >> cookbooks. >> corporate fat cats, swindling socialites, doped up cyclists. then yes, more crooked politicians. i have a feeling we won't be running out of those anytime soon. >> a new season of united states of scandal with jake tapper. march 9th on cnn. >> kirill dmitriev unprecedented decision to fire the military's top lawyers, aka judge advocate generals. you know, jags listen. >> i thought about roadblocks. >> to an agenda. it's roadblocks to, uh, orders that are given by a commander in chief. so ultimately, i want the best possible lawyers in each service

to provide the best possible recommendations, no matter what, to lawful orders that are given. and we didn't think those particular positions were well suited. and so we're looking for the best. we're opening it up to everybody to be able to be the top lawyer of those services. >> now, hegseth failed to provide any specifics on how the three officers in those positions now have been roadblocks, as he says, to orders by a president or how well they weren't well suited to their roles, though doesn't take a whole lot of digging to find hegseth disdain for jag officers. he very colorfully referred to them as jag offs in his 2024 book, the war on warriors. joining me now, frank kendall. he was secretary of the air force under president biden. he also published an op ed in the new york times today titled america has a rogue president. this was a very compelling and, i think, illuminating op ed that you've written to go into the heart of the matter as to why jags in particular, have been so

impactful and why you wanted to write this. tell me what it is about this position and the firings around that you think could be very consequential. >> well, i thought, first of all, that in the coverage of the firings, the focus was on the very senior people such as general brown, whom i have great admiration for, and that the firing of the three jags seemed almost. it didn't make sense to me that they were included. i couldn't understand why, except that as the secretary just said, he wants people who are going to be more compliant, people who are going to be more flexible is one nice way to say it about the laws of armed conflict, about the restrictions on the military's use against american citizens and a number of other areas. all the jags are handpicked at this senior level. um, the one that i had in department of the air force, general plummer, was an exceptional. professional, very, very capable. he was the best of the best. he was put into the position because of that. so i'm not sure how secretary hegseth might define the best. he may have his own definition.

um. >> flexibility with respect to it, though. i mean, their job is to really apply the code in the military. i mean, and the idea that they would be flexible might suggest to some that they could well be influenced, which is exactly what you don't want, right, for jag. >> you want them to apply the law as the law is and not to be bending it to extreme ways to satisfy somebody's desires. um, their fundamental responsibility is for the uniform code of military justice, criminal law that governs all people in the military, but they also serve other functions, such as ensuring that the laws of armed conflict are followed, ensuring that any orders that come down from the president through the secretary of defense to military commanders are in fact lawful orders consistently. >> because they could essentially, if a officer or somebody has a question about it, they would go to the jag for some description of whether in fact should be followed. and that's very telling about flexibility. >> that's exactly right. um, if

an officer has a question about that, that's where he would go to get legal advice on that. they should be consulted. they are routinely consulted before orders are given, particularly in operational situations and secretary hegseth the objections to that. but that's that's the values that the united states brings. when we when we go into conflict, we comply with the laws of armed conflict, armed conflict. and that is not always something that's at the at the point of contact where combat is occurring. people are comfortable with or appreciate because it can put them at more risk. but it's the right thing to do, uh, particularly the right thing to do when civilian casualties are at risk. >> give me an example of these rules of armed conflict that would be such that it's necessary to be able to have an independent body of people who are. >> in person, um, during the war campaign against i.s.i.s., for example, we were trying to take out individual targets that were there were members of i.s.i.s., and we would put surveillance over a location, and we would

watch for some period of time to ensure that family members weren't present, for example. and before you could do any engagement, you had to have a legal approval to do that engagement. it was designed to ensure that we were, in fact, killing the people we were trying to kill and not not innocent. uh, and i was impressed by what we did. there are situations when people are in contact in combat where snap judgments have to be made. there isn't time to get legal advice, and i fully understand that. and i think our people should have some flexibility and a little bit of deference when they have to make that kind of a snap judgment. but in other cases, there is time, and it is very appropriate to get sound legal advice before making an operational decision. >> in fact, that's one of the areas that hegseth criticized jags about in his book. he talked about them being too restrictive on the front lines. i'm sure in part it's what you're describing, but that he calls them roadblocks. is there any validity to an argument that the commander in chief should be able to install who he feels is

most loyal to his positions and his stances in those roles? >> we have a very professional military, and we have always promoted people based on their performance and their capabilities. um, and we do that, you know, across administrations all the time. um, i've been through a number of transitions between administrations, and i have never seen people removed for political reasons. or as you just described, all of our military professionals are trained. and in my experience, do follow the orders, follow the policies of whoever is in the civilian chain of command at the time. and that that's done very routinely and very smoothly. so there's no reason to remove these people for that. >> really compelling frank to talk about this in this way. thank you so much. >> thank you. good to be with you, laura. >> well ahead, frances president interrupts donald trump in the oval office to fact check him on the war in ukraine. but it's what trump is refusing to call vladimir putin that's raising eyebrows.

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trump as he hosts french president emmanuel macron at the white house. now, while macron says he and trump made substantive steps forward on peace talks today, the two taking strikingly different tones as they took questions on the topic, macron calling russia the aggressor and adamantly defending ukraine's sovereignty while trump. well, he refused to call putin a dictator. >> president zelenskyy a dictator. would you use the same word regarding putin? >> uh, i don't use those words lightly. i think that we're going to see how it all works out. >> joining me now, ned price, he's a former senior cia and state department official. ned, welcome. trump obviously wants this deal. it gives the u.s. access to ukraine's minerals as a way to get paid back for aid, it seems. but connect the dots. is it clear to you how that deal for mineral rights would translate to getting a broader peace agreement? >> laura. it's not.

>> yet evident to me, and i don't think it's really evident to anyone just yet. even the ukrainians have been scratching their head at this. look, i think the real danger with this potential approach is that it poses an ultimatum to zelenskyy. it says, look, either cede your economic sovereignty to me, to donald trump, or cede your political sovereignty to the guy to your east, vladimir putin. this move is in some ways classic trump. it's transactional. it's a quid pro quo. it's also thuggish and and wrongheaded. look, there is absolutely nothing wrong with seeing to it that american companies have economic opportunities in ukraine. we set out penny pritzker, one of this country's most recognized ceos and entrepreneurs, to do just that. during the biden administration. but when it is set as an ultimatum, when zelenskyy has a gun to his head and the choice he faces is to give up his country to putin or his economic mineral rights to

donald trump, that doesn't really reinforce this idea of a just and durable peace that at least the trump administration says that it wants. >> you described the consummate rock and a hard place with much dire consequences at that. and yet, the bargaining power of the parties seems quite striking. i mean, does the way that trump answered that dictator question give you any pause as to why he is preferring one or the other in those discussions? >> well, laura, i think it really boils down to the fact that donald trump at his heart, admires and his heart admires strongmen, admires dictators, admires autocrats. he admires those who rule with an iron fist. it's why he rarely, if ever, has a bad word to say about vladimir putin or xi jinping. even kim jong un, these are individuals who rule with brutality, with lethality, who are repressive at home, and who in many cases are aggressive

overseas. it doesn't really matter to trump that these are the individuals, these autocrats and despots around the world who in many ways have been acting out against america's interests, who have been making the american people less safe, less secure, in some ways less prosperous. he admires the way they govern their countries. and in some ways, i think he would like to be in a position to emulate him, emulate them. >> let me ask you on this idea of him being described as transactional in particular transactional, approaching this without the same level of concern, perhaps, as russia and ukraine. specifically, the fact that the u.s. has provided so much aid to ukraine. is there some incentive or some prudence in having a transactional approach in that way? >> well, look, i think, uh, what they might be trying to do here, at least some who might be trying to orchestrate a ploy for donald trump to see the utility in working with ukraine is to say, let's have the united

states invest in some of ukraine's critical minerals. so the united states has, in what trump would see as skin in the game right now. he cares little to nothing for the really the values that undergird what the united states and countries around the world. uh, for the reason why they have come to ukraine's defense, the values of democracy, of sovereignty, of territorial integrity. what he does care about is, you said is transactionalism. and if trump knows that the united states has a stake in ukraine's critical minerals, and if putin continues to encroach on ukraine's sovereign territory. well, i think the thinking goes, then maybe donald trump will care about that, that, frankly, as you know, laura, is not the way any u.s. president has ever operated before. this is trumpian in the sense that it's all about dollars and cents. it's all about hard power. and it is. nothing has no concern for what america stands for in the world. and what, most importantly, will make us safe over the long term. safeguarding the system of relations between

states that over the past 80 years have led to unprecedented levels of safety, security, prosperity for the american people and for people around the globe. that is what is at stake in trump's approach to this. >> three years to the day since that invasion. and we're still waiting for as the people of ukraine and frankly, russia wait for the end of all of this. ned price, thank you so much. >> thanks, laura. >> ahead, one of my favorites. she won five grammys, created multiple chart topping hits, and did it all after working as a school teacher for nearly a decade, we're going to remember soul singer roberta flack next. >> with this. >> song telling my whole life with his words, killing me softly. with his song. >> welcome back. >> have i got news for you? news

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later, she became the first artist to win record of the year twice in a row for her hit romantic ballad killing me softly. some of my favorite songs came from her collaboration with none other than donny hathaway. like this classic where is the love? >> where is the love? is the love? where is the love? where is the love? >> i can't tell you how often that song played in my house growing up. she recorded 20 albums over her five decade career and became known for her ability to interpret songs through her own unique point of view. the first time i saw her face, let alone heard her voice. roberta has soundtracked more love stories than her fans can count. whether she was asking, in fact, where is the love? or telling you tonight she celebrate her love for you. or the closer she get to you and feel like making love. she set the night to music. a star in

her own right. she also helped inspire the careers of countless others, including a backup singer. you may have heard of luther vandross. >> what happened is that one day. >> she had come back to the theater and i was singing, and she came over to me and she said, you know, you're getting a little too comfortable sitting on the stool in the background singing oohs and ahs. i really want you to make your own statement and make your own record, you know? and she, in effect, fired me. luther vandross likes to say that i fired him, but i never really fired him. what i did was to encourage him to believe in his own ability to produce his first album. >> well, thank you for that. and even at the height of her success, roberta used her voice to advocate for music education for underprivileged youth. here's what he had to say and share. after receiving a living legend award in 2017. >> celebrate your successes.

learn from your mistakes. be grateful. forgive and persevere. i've always said love is a song. each of you has something special to give you. keep singing that song. love is a song because there's someone in the world, in your world. in the whole wide world that needs to hear it. >> and for all we know, donny hathaway welcomed her home. i want to thank you all for watching anderson cooper 360 is next. but before we go, we want to welcome to the world arthur james adler, born on saturday, february 22nd. arthur is the son of laura coates live producer alexander