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>> tonight on 360. >> the fallout after the diplomatic fireworks. a contentious ten minutes that abruptly ended an oval office meeting between president trump and zelenskyy. what does it mean for ongoing u.s. support for ukraine? while russia cheers zelenskyy's treatment at the white house by president trump and vice president vance, as america's allies are left reeling from the historic breakdown and later. more breaking news involving new details in the mystery surrounding the deaths of film icon gene hackman, his wife and one of their dogs. good evening to you. i'm jim sciutto in tonight for anderson. we begin tonight with the breaking news. new reaction from ukrainian president volodymyr zelenskyy just a short time ago, his first comments since the very public shouting match that played out at the white house today live on television, the implications of the day are massive as yet unknown. a short time ago, president zelenskyy appeared on

fox. >> so i'm not hearing. >> from you, mr. president. a thought that you owe the president. >> an apology. >> no, i respect president and i respect american people. and if i don't know if i think that we have to be very open and very honest, and i'm not sure that we did something bad, i think maybe sometimes some some, some things we have to discuss out of out of media. >> well, that blowout led to the day ending abruptly with a planned press briefing canceled. that said, the meeting between the two leaders began cordially. president trump greeted zelenskyy outside the white house with smiles. later, as that sit down began, the two leaders were quite friendly. trump called it an honor, in his words, to host zelenskyy. trump also spoke of a rare earth mineral deal the two leaders were supposed to sign today. they were also supposed to have lunch and a news conference, but

cracks began to form early in the conversation, with zelenskyy clearly shaking his head. no. at one point, when trump suggested that putin would honor a peace deal and would not go back into ukraine. but the true fireworks began with one of the very last questions from a polish journalist. this is the question. >> when i was a kid, i looked at the united states not only as a most powerful country, richest country in the world, the country that has great music, great movies, great muscle cars, but also as a force for good. do you? and now i'm talking with my friends in poland, and they are worried that you align yourself too much with putin. what's your message for them? >> listen, that question, it's about how some in europe are worried about the appearance that trump is aligning himself too much with putin. vice president vance eventually spoke

in response. and then here's what happened. the path to peace and the path to prosperity is maybe engaging in diplomacy. what makes america a good country? is america engaging in diplomacy? that's what president trump is doing. >> can i ask you? >> sure. >> yeah. >> yeah. >> okay. so he occupied it. um, our parts, big parts of ukraine, part of east and crimea, you know, that we had conversations with him, a lot of conversations. my bilateral conversation. and we signed with him. me, like a new president. in 2019. i signed with him the deal i signed with him. macron and merkel. we signed cease-fire. he broken the ceasefire. he killed our people, and he didn't exchange prisoners. we signed the exchange of prisoners, but he didn't do it. what kind of

diplomacy? g-d, you are speaking about? what what what do you what do you mean? >> i'm talking about the kind of diplomacy that's going to end the destruction of your country. >> yes, but if you. >> are not president, with respect, i think it's disrespectful for you to come into the oval office and try to litigate this in front of the american media. at first, president trump said very little during that exchange, but that soon changed. >> the war. during the war, everybody has problems, even you, but you have nice ocean and don't feel now, but you will feel it in the future. >> god bless you. >> god bless you. god bless you. >> don't tell us what we're going to feel. we're trying to solve a problem. don't tell us what we're going to feel. >> i'm not telling you. >> because you're in no position to dictate that. remember that you're in no position to dictate what we're going to feel. we're going to feel very good. we're going to feel very good and very strong. >> will feel influenced. >> you're right now not in a very good position. you've allowed yourself to be in a very

bad position. and he happens to be right about. >> from the very beginning of the war. >> you're not in a good position. you don't have the cards right now with us. you start having cards. cards right now you don't. you're playing cards. you're playing cards. you're gambling with the lives of millions of people. you're gambling with world war iii. you're gambling with world war iii. and what you're doing is very disrespectful to the country. this country that's back to you far more than a lot of people said they should have. >> have you said thank you once this entire meeting? no. in this entire meeting, have you said thank. >> you? >> that was a recurring theme, vance suggesting that zelenskyy had not sufficiently thanked trump. in fact, we should note these were his very first comments. >> please, i'd like to say something. >> no. thank you so much, mr. president. thank you for the invitation. >> thank you there. and thank

you. through the years since the start of this war, cnn's fact checker daniel dale found at least 33 other times during the war when zelenskyy thanked america quite publicly. you can see that list on cnn.com. back in the oval office, trump continued his very public criticism of zelenskyy, and vance continued to demand those thanks. >> you think that if you will speak very loudly about the war, you. >> can start speaking loudly? he's not speaking loudly. your country is in big trouble. wait a minute. no, no, you've done a lot of talking. your country is in big trouble. >> i know. >> you're not winning. you're not winning this. you have a good chance of coming out, okay? because of. >> mr. president, we are staying in our country, staying strong. from the very beginning of the war, we've been alone, and we are thankful i said thanks. >> you haven't. >> been in the cabinet. you haven't been in this. >> we gave you through. >> the. >> stupid president, $350 billion. we gave you military equipment. you and your men are

brave. but they had to use our military. >> what about. >> if you didn't have our military equipment. >> you invited. >> you didn't have our military equipment. this war would have been over in two weeks. >> in three days? i heard it from putin in three days. this is something. maybe less in two weeks. of course. yes. >> it's going to be a very hard thing to do. business like this, i tell you. >> you say thank you. >> i said, except. >> that there. >> except that. >> except that there are disagreements. and let's go litigate those disagreements rather than trying to fight it out in the american media. when you're wrong, we know that you're wrong. >> but you see, i think it's good for the american people to see what's going on. i think it's very important. that's why i kept this going so long. you have to be thankful you don't have the cards. >> one thing you didn't hear today was a single critical word of the russian president, vladimir putin, who ordered the invasion of ukraine. at various points, trump appeared to signal that the deal he wants ukraine to make for its rare earth minerals, that is, the u.s.

getting access to them and lots of money from them could be in jeopardy. and with it, america's support for ukraine's defense. >> the problem is, i've empowered you to be a tough guy, and i don't think you'd be a tough guy without the united states. and your people are very brave. but you're either going to make a deal or we're out. and if we're out, you'll fight it out. i don't think it's going to be pretty, but you'll fight it out. but you don't have the cards. but once we sign that deal, you're in a much better position. but you're not acting at all thankful. and that's not a nice thing. i'll be honest. that's not a nice thing. >> trump ended that very difficult, contentious meeting with this comment. >> i think we've seen enough. what do you think, huh? this is this is going to be great television. i will say that. >> great television, of course, that's the leader of a country fighting for its survival. after the meeting, president zelenskyy

posted this on twitter. now x thank you america. thank you for your support. thank you for this visit. thank you. potus that is president of united states congress and the american people. ukraine needs just and lasting peace. and we are working exactly for that. this is what trump said. >> what does he need to do to restart talks? >> he's got to say, i want to make peace. he doesn't have to stand there and say about putin, this, putin, that all negative things. he's got to say, i want to make peace. i don't want to fight a war any longer. >> of course, those negative things he says about putin, zelenskyy, are that putin invaded his country and has killed many tens of thousands of people there. as for russian reaction after today's meeting, former russian president dmitry medvedev had this to say on next quote, the insolent pig he is speaking about. zelenskyy there finally got a proper slap down in the oval office. and donald trump is right, the kyiv regime

is gambling with world war three. end quote. we should note that medvedev has numerous times threatened nuclear war against the united states. we begin now with our chief white house correspondent who was at that news conference, kaitlan collins. she also, of course, anchors the source at 9 p.m., also with us from the ukrainian capital, kyiv. cnn's chief national security correspondent, nick paton walsh. and caitlin, you were in there as this happened and it began quite well. can you pinpoint the moment when it turned for the worse? >> the tension had kind of been there. obviously, it existed ever since trump called zelenskyy a dictator without elections. and he said trump was living in a disinformation bubble. so we were watching this all so closely. there were about 40 minutes before those those explosive ten minutes where everything essentially erupted. and during that, there was a back and forth where they were talking about what this agreement could look like, what they want a ceasefire to look like. and there were moments of disagreement between trump and zelenskyy. there was one, one time when i had asked president trump something and zelenskyy

was shaking his head. no, as trump was answering, talking about putin's willingness to to make a deal and trump's insistence that maybe putin has broken agreements that he made with other u.s. presidents and other world leaders, but he hasn't broken one that he's made with him. that was trump's argument. and zelenskyy was saying, you know, you can't trust him, that he's he's blown through all these ceasefires before. there's a reason we want enforcement to be here. so there were these moments of corrections. and zelenskyy weighing in and asking if he could respond to questions building throughout, but nothing that compares to what happened there when when trump had actually said, let's take one more question. and then vice president pence said, actually, i'd like to weigh in. and that's when he spoke up. and then zelenskyy responded to that. and of course, that is where it devolved from there, and was one of the most astonishing things i've ever seen inside the oval. and after that, i should note trump. trump stayed in the oval with his top advisers. the ukrainians went to a separate room, and trump decided that, as a white house official said to me that zelenskyy was not in a position to to continue negotiating them

then, and they asked them to leave. i mean, they had lunch prepared. it was getting cold in the hallways. the ukrainian delegation then left the white house. there were no further discussions. the mineral deal was not signed. and there are real questions tonight about what happens next. >> the kick, the kick. the leader of a u.s. ally currently at war out of the white house. i mean, it's a truly remarkable moment. nick, earlier, i spoke with oleksandr murashko. he is head of the foreign affairs committee in the ukrainian parliament. i asked him if the ukrainian parliament still has the ukrainian president's back. have a listen to his thoughts. i want to get your thoughts on the other side. does the ukrainian parliament have the president's back tonight? are they backing him, supporting him in his stand? >> absolutely. no doubt. about this. >> we are proud of our president. we are proud that he has guts to stand up for ukraine, for people of ukraine. uh, even opposition has no doubts about our president. we

support and we are united behind our president. >> nick, i wonder if you're hearing the same in kyiv and if it's your view that that sticks, right? because a ukraine alone without american support is in real danger. >> possibly able to get by, maybe with european support. but even the europeans know they need american backing ultimately. look, we're hearing a mixture here of indignation that ukraine's president, frankly, after the extraordinary sacrifice and suffering over the past three years of the entire nation, was treated in that way. and also acute anxiety as to what really actually happens, if indeed u.s. aid is cut or stalled. remember back in 2023, at the end, there was a six month delay from congress that massively crippled activity on the front line. and look, this is an existential night by night crisis. i'm standing here under a drone alert, which is

something that ukrainians deal with on a nightly basis. and so i think the anger you potentially saw in zelenskyy there, when confronted with full statements about the war, is just a reflection of how life and death this is for so many. look, we've heard from a u.s. official that maybe his choice of wardrobe turning up in the casual black shirt he always wears with the ukrainian insignia on it, may have set the wrong tone with trump suggestions to that his team pushed too hard for a meeting in the oval office when maybe the trump zelenskyy relationship wasn't there, and also a senior u.s. official saying to me that they don't think they can fix this up to zelenskyy to do it. and indeed, on fox news, he suggested he didn't need to apologize, but the relationship could be salvaged, saying he didn't think he'd done anything wrong in that meeting. we're into a really unprecedented moment here. european leaders, according to ukrainian source macron, the french president, on the phone after that incident, the nato secretary general. i think people are going to try and patch this together, but it looks exceptionally perilous now. and the ultimate question is that zelenskyy will meet the

europeans on sunday. are they able to provide something that keeps ukraine feeling it could live without u.s. support? there is real, real concern here that if that dries up, it could cripple the front lines, morale, recruitment, all sorts of things could begin to crumble. and that leaves the whole concept of a ceasefire and a peace deal, a secondary thought to the fact that moscow simply wants more territory and feels it's winning now. jim. >> yeah. particularly those those u.s. supplied patriot air defenses. caitlin, you spoke late tonight with the secretary of state, marco rubio, and he's an interesting one because he's been one of the most vocal supporters of ukraine through the years. prior to entering the trump administration. did he defend trump's demeanor tonight? >> oh, full throated defense. and i don't think that's surprising. that is one thing that we saw emerge almost immediately from this. all of the cabinet secretaries who were in that room have come out in full force and defended trump. the other person who came out right away at the white house was senator lindsey graham, also a strong supporter of ukraine, someone who knows president zelenskyy and has met with him,

including just this morning had a pretty friendly breakfast with other u.s. senators with him. he is saying that zelenskyy may need to resign in this moment because he doesn't believe the negotiations can really continue in good faith between between the u.s. and ukraine. i asked secretary rubio if he agrees with that and this is what he had to say. senator lindsey graham, after having lunch with president trump today, said zelenskyy either needs to resign or they need to send someone over that we can do business with. do you feel that president zelenskyy needs to resign? >> well. >> that's lindsay's. >> feeling because he. >> feels very passionately. >> you know, he's been a. >> very. >> strong supporter of ukraine. lindsey graham has been one of the strongest. >> voices for ukraine. >> well, the united states president has taken no position on that. what he said today is let him come back when he's ready to do peace. that's what he said. let him come back when he's ready to do peace. so i can't speak for what anybody else said. i can only go off the words from the president of the united states, and that is today. we're not this is not going to be productive any further. when zelenskyy is ready to make peace and he's serious about peace. let him come back then. and that's when we'll

reengage with them. and when he means by that is when he understands that. well, i think it's everything i've said already, and that is how are you going to get vladimir putin and the russian federation to a table to discuss even the opportunity, whether even to explore whether there's an opportunity for peace? you're not going to do it by calling them names. it makes everybody feel very good. you can pass resolutions. you can put out very strongly worded statements that senators can do it. i did when i was in the senate. house members can do it, a commentators can do it. and countries that have no real skin in the game can do it. but when you are the president of the united states of america and you're trying to bring about peace the way donald trump is trying to bring about peace, the only way to do it is you have to create space for people to come to the table and talk, and that is something we should all be applauding, not criticizing, and not pretending that we can just extend this war forever until we and everybody has unlimited resources to continue to fund it on both sides, by the way. >> and president zelenskyy has said he does want this war to end. he just cares about how it ends. we heard that from the other european leaders who came to the oval office. also this

week, president trump said to to me today before that shouting match erupted in the oval office that he doesn't believe there have to be security guarantees in place before the cease fire, that you can come to a ceasefire agreement and then put those in place. do you agree with that? >> that's not what he said. what he said is, why am i going to be talking about security guarantees? let me get a peace deal first, is what he said. that doesn't mean they can't happen as part of that negotiation. but you have to have an agreement. what is the what peace is there to secure if you first don't have an agreement on peace? like what do the russians need in order to end this conflict? what are. >> you saying? it would happen. >> as part of the negotiations. >> well. >> again, why do you end a war? you have to find out what the combatants require in order to stop shooting at each other. what are the russians needs? what do they need to see in order for them to stop fighting? what do the ukrainians need in order to stop fighting? and then once you have that in place, then you can decide the next step, which is. and what do we need to do to make sure this never happens again, that it doesn't happen in two years, three years, five years. i don't think president trump is that repeatedly. but again, he's not

going to use the kind of language that maybe plays well in the public sphere or in the political sphere for people that want to take shots at him, but it's not going to allow us to have a negotiation or even to explore a potential negotiation. president donald trump is a man who has made deals his entire life in the business, and he's bringing those principles to government. he's the only one in the world that has any chance. if donald trump tomorrow decides, i don't care about ukraine, i don't care about russia, and i don't care about this war. and he walks away. i ask you, i ask everyone, well, who on this planet has any chance whatsoever, even a 1% chance of getting the combatants to the table? the answer is there is no one. he is the only one on earth right now that has any chance. if there is a chance at peace. is he the only one that has a chance to deliver on it? >> quite a moment from the u.s. secretary of state. we'll see if they're able to get them closer to peace. kaitlan collins, thanks so much. a reminder you can, of course, see more of caitlyn's interview with secretary of state rubio on the sauce at the top of the next hour. perspective now from leon

panetta, who served as chief of staff under president clinton, also, of course, director of the cia and defense secretary under president obama. also joining us is david axelrod, former senior adviser to president obama. secretary panetta, let me begin with you, because this was quite a moment on a number of levels, one of which you have a u.s. president berating a u.s. ally currently defending his country against an ongoing russian invasion, and the president having far harsher words for him and frankly, no harsh words for for vladimir putin. what what does that mean for america's relationship, not just with ukraine, but with the world? >> well. >> i think you saw a tragic and historic moment take place in the oval office, uh, in which 80 years of united states foreign policy has largely been turned on its head. i mean, for 80 years, since world war ii, uh,

presidents, democrat and republican, democrat and republican have been consistent on u.s. foreign policy, on world leadership, on support for our alliances, on support for democratic values, and standing up to tyrants. and today, you saw that conversation where the president and the vice president spent most of their time defending putin and attacking the leader of a democracy. i never thought i would see that in my lifetime. >> david axelrod, i know that the american people have grown exhausted with this war to some degree, as americans and and europeans and god knows, the ukrainian people. um, i also know that there's a portion of this country that buys some of the disinformation about who's responsible for the war and the charges that zelenskyy is taking the money and buying yachts, et cetera., all these false kind of charges. but can you can you tell me where the politics stand on, on this war? and a moment

like this? does president trump lose some of the american public with this kind of display? >> well, first of. >> all, if people. >> have been taken in by disinformation, they should have listened to the words of jd vance in the oval office today where he proclaimed that putin had invaded russia and destroyed, uh, a lot of the country. uh, he was trying to make a different point, and he acknowledged that in his question, which is something the president of the united states is unwilling to acknowledge. uh, look, jim, the reality is, uh, i do think this is a war weary country. we don't we have not lost. we have not shed any blood in ukraine. let's be clear. it's the ukrainians who have borne the brunt of that very valiantly. we have provided some weaponry for them. but i think people, uh, i think what people would say is we should spend money at home. we shouldn't be spending money, uh, abroad. and people are very focused on the home front. uh, zelenskyy tried

to make a point to the president, and the president reacted with bombast about what the consequences for america will be if putin is unbridled. uh, and that and, you know, this is really the central question, uh, the central question. and putin is not a popular figure in this country. so let's be clear. i don't think americans are excited about us siding with vladimir putin. i think they would be appalled by some of the things that they heard in that regard. but zelenskyy is making a very valid point. you know, marco rubio, who i remember i'm old enough to remember when he was a supporter of, uh, ukraine. but he, uh, he said in this interview with caitlin, uh, you know, he said, we we need to find out what what both sides need. okay. and what zelenskyy keeps saying again and again and again is we need security guarantees because we can't trust putin, who invaded our country repeatedly. and trump's answer is, well, i trust him.

now, that's not a security guarantee. and it does raise the question, even if you accepted that, what happens when trump's gone? if trump is the guarantor because he trusts putin. so, uh, you know, i think the political question is the political question. and i think, jim, i don't think this helps trump. you know, his base will try and rally. i don't think this helps trump, but i don't think this is the deal breaker for voters. but it is a deal breaker for 80 years of history. i'm the last point, and i know i'm monopolizing the floor here. i apologize to the secretary, but i am the i am the son of a refugee. i. you're looking at the most grateful american citizen there is. uh, i and every time i walked in that white house, i felt a sense of gratitude for what the united states stands for. and that was shredded today in that meeting in the oval office. >> and i should note that tonight there are air raid

warnings going on in kyiv because russia is bombing of ukraine, including civilian targets in ukraine, continues unabated. leon panetta, david axelrod, please do stay with us. i'd like to speak with you after the break. coming up next, more on what this very public rebuke of an ally at war by the president and vice president means for the future of the alliance, not just with ukraine, but with europe as well. representative crowe joins me next. >> hi, grandma. i played baseball today. >> oh that's great. >> what position did. >> you play? >> first base. that's what grandpa used to play when our hearing wouldn't allow us to use a regular phone. it made us feel isolated. >> it became difficult to communicate. >> with. >> our friends and family. >> clear captions was an easy solution for us. >> clear captions. >> provides captions on a phone, like captioning on your tv so you can see what the caller is saying live as they say.

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support for ukraine. did we see that moment in the oval office today of the u.s., in effect, saying, ukraine, you're on your own. >> your country is in big trouble? >> jim. >> i didn't. >> ever imagine in my lifetime i would see something as appalling as i. saw today in the oval office. and i wouldn't classify this as you did as contentious or as controversial. that's not what happened today. this was a stunning abdication of american leadership. it was a minimizing of our. country in a pullback of america as a world leader in. >> a stunning way. >> you know, an aggressive attack on one of our closest allies and partners and turning the oval. office into a. >> propaganda machine. >> for vladimir putin, one of the world's worst dictators and an adversary of the united. states who consistently tries to undermine our democracy and attack americans. truly appalling., as he uses the same words as putin to describe this war, the same justifications as

putin to describe this war. >> can trump still be a fair, reliable, trustworthy? peacemaker for ukraine in this war, or are you seeing his? interests more aligned with putin's as relate to ukraine? >> well, donald. >> trump is certainly not reliable and trustworthy in any sense. he wasn't reliable and trustworthy. >> as. >> a business partner when he was in real estate, because he declared bankruptcy six times and was widely known to. walk away from contracts and to shun his business partners. and that is an mo that has continued his entire life. and we see that playing out. in stunning fashion in the oval office today. >> my hope. >> is that vladimir or vladimir putin doesn't continue to take advantage of this opportunity, although he probably will. i mean, that's what he does and what he's so good at. but president zelenskyy and our

european partners and allies have to figure out a way to salvage this. this is just a, you know, truly unbelievable. and we are smaller as a country as a result of what donald trump and jd vance did today. i mean, the world is watching this and our partners are watching this, and our adversaries are watching this. it's embarrassing, does not capture the essence of this. we are less safe. and we have to figure out how we can salvage an american foreign policy and national security going forward. and that's part of my job as a member of congress is how do we lead in the absence of leadership from the oval office? >> well, we'll see if congress can manage. of course, the commander in chief has an enormous amount of power. congressman jason crow, we do appreciate you joining us. >> thank you. >> back with us now, leon panetta and david axelrod. leon, it strikes me that beyond ukraine, president trump, jd vance as well, when you look back to munich, there are other public comments are not just

telling ukraine it is on its own. they are communicating to europe that the u.s. will no longer defend europe. and and if that sounds to some like hyperbole, european leaders are saying this quite publicly. the soon to be chancellor of germany. friedrich merz has said the u.s. cannot rely on europe, cannot rely on the u.s. to enforce article five, for instance, of nato. as others have echoed. is that how europe should read this president, that they're on their own as well? >> well, i don't see how european leaders can can read anything other into what happened today, but that the united states is in many ways walking away from europe. and europe is on its own. uh, look, the message that went out from this meeting, uh, to the world is that, uh, united states credibility, uh, in dealing with our allies, uh, has taken a real

hit. uh, and europe really? i know europe has been talking about having to basically support ukraine on its own. uh, not really believing that the united states would walk in the opposite direction. but what happened today confirms their worst suspicion. they are the ones that are going to have to step up and help zelenskyy be able to save his country. >> david, gop lawmakers who support ukraine have been telling me for weeks that trump will not abandon ukraine because he doesn't want to be seen as weak, that he doesn't want to have his afghanistan right. and we saw biden's support drop significantly following the disastrous withdrawal from there. is that, in your view, at all a reliable backstop here that trump will see? well, i don't want to be perceived as the loser here and eventually

back up ukraine. >> look, i think the darker interpretation of what we saw today is that they were setting up a pretext, he and the vice president for walking away from ukraine and blaming zelenskyy for it. uh, so there's nothing about what you heard today that would really give you confidence of that. you know, we didn't even talk about the fact that, uh, once, uh, once the president got peaked, he went into this tirade that went back to the the russia 2016 and, and he said, you know, the russia hoax. and putin and i went through that together. and he described putin as a victim. and this goes back to 2018 when he said, i believe putin, not the u.s. intelligence. so, uh, there's, you know, the the way to to way to look strong is not to be vladimir putin's lapdog. but so far, this president seems very comfortable sitting there. and that is a very, very menacing image for the world. >> yeah. the helsinki moment, there was consternation among

his advisers. there was bipartisan outrage. but today he went even further. and nothing. leon panetta. david axelrod, thanks so much to both of you. this friday, thanks to coming up next, i'll speak with a former nato supreme allied commander for his take on how members of the critical alliance are responding not just to the explosive oval office meeting, but other messages they're hearing from president trump and later. more breaking news, new information on when exactly the legendary actor gene hackman may have died. authorities are now saying his body could have gone undiscovered for days. >> what happens in vegas stays well, not anymore. play quick, hit slots. the free to play mobile slots game that everyone is playing from coast to coast. download quick hit slots for free and get a 6 million coin bonus. make every day a winning day. >> does the pain in your arm keep you up at night? does the arm tingle hurt in the car or at

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good to have you on, sir. nice to see you this friday. >> thanks, jim. >> you, of course, commanded nato forces in europe. i wonder what are nato member states and their leaders? america's treaty allies thinking tonight after this display in the oval office? >> yeah. >> let's start. >> actually, in moscow, where. >> they're not. >> popping champagne because they're under sanctions from france. >> but they're breaking out the best bottles. >> of vodka. >> everybody is very, very happy in moscow. and you see that across russian television. now let's shift to brussels, where the greatest pool of allies, partners and friends the united states could possibly have in the world. our fellow democracies across this transatlantic bridge. there is despair. there is deep, deep concern and sadness over the way vladimir zelenskyy was treated in the oval office. the way he

was. um, simply, i think, ambushed by the president and the vice president in a display that really does shame to the oval office of the united states. i think the question now, jim, is what happens in europe? let's face it, the spotlight will now go to europe. donald trump has made it clear he wants no part of helping ukraine going forward. it's a geopolitical mistake of epic proportion. now the lights go on in europe. they're going to have to step up and take this on. >> as you know, trump has not just warned ukraine. it's in effect on his own. i mean, he said that to europe effectively. and the way european leaders are taking that friedrich merz among them, soon to be chancellor of germany, is that they cannot rely on the u.s. to enforce article five of the nato treaty. is that a fair concern on their part? has trump effectively, if not by signing a document,

remove the u.s. from the alliance? >> i think we are headed possibly. i don't want to overstate this. i don't want to be overly dramatic, but we could be looking at the last days of nato. and this is a gut issue about who are you going to support a democracy that's under attack, or are you going to support a dictator in moscow? this is going to drive a wedge deep into the heart of the alliance, and it's going to bleed over beyond ukraine. as you point out, jim, correctly, as to whether or not the united states can be trusted as a partner. i think if i'm a european at this point, i'm saying i need bigger defense spending. i need my european defense companies to step up. i need to build a european armed forces. i need a command structure outside of nato, perhaps embedded in the european union. we could see the end of

nato and the start of what might be called the european treaty organization. >> ito is the u.s. safer or less safe without nato. >> we are less safe on the most pragmatic possible sense. right now, our defense budget is $900 billion. china's is about $300 billion. russia is $150 billion. europe spends almost $400 billion a year on defense. collectively it's the second largest defense budget in the world. so for us to walk away from that and say, no, we don't want to work with you. we don't want your help. we don't need those security pacts that we have. it's a huge pragmatic mistake. even before you get to the fact that the europeans are

the other nations who believe in democracy, believe in liberty, believe in freedom of the press, believe in all of the values that we hold. final thought they came with us to afghanistan after we were attacked on 911, fought and died with us. you and i were both there in afghanistan and saw it to walk away from all that makes no sense reduces our security. isolationism will not succeed for the united states. >> well, we may be headed for a grand experiment in that space. admiral james stavridis, really do appreciate your time and your analysis. >> thanks, jim. >> coming up next, more breaking news, a critical new detail in the investigation into the deaths of the actor gene hackman and his wife. and later, the vatican says the pope is not out of danger after suddenly requiring a breathing machine. we're going to have the very latest on his condition.

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>> breaking news now in this mysterious death of screen legend gene hackman and his wife, betsy arakawa. authorities have just revealed a key piece of information that could help them determine exactly how and also when, the couple died. cnn's julia vargas jones is outside the santa fe county sheriff's office. tell us what we learned about the. when he when mr. hackman is believed to have actually died. >> well, nine days prior, jim. that's what authorities were saying today. he was likely dead. nine days before authorities found him in his wife in their new mexico home. that's according to data from his pacemaker that last recorded cardiac signals from him on february 17th. that's according to an investigator. medical investigator that's working with medical authorities here in new mexico. timing has been a challenge in this, jim. that's something that the sheriff spoke

about today in a press conference. he said, usually you pinpoint the last time a victim or victims were seen, and then you work from there until their time of death. what the sheriff adan mendoza said today is that they're actually constructing a reverse timeline because of their privacy, because of the lack of video evidence here to finally crack this case and figure out what is it that happened in the final hours of their lives? >> are they saying anything about the possibility of carbon monoxide poisoning? >> well, that is something that was up until today, a question, but that was conclusive. today, the sheriff saying that both him and his wife tested negative for carbon monoxide poisoning. and it's interesting because neither of them had any signs of trauma external to their bodies. if you remember from an affidavit, from a warrant that we found this morning that was released this morning. we read the theories that the deputies had going into that home. they found gene

hackman in a mudroom, sort of a mudroom area with a cane and sunglasses next to him and his wife in a bathroom with pills scattered around. and we do know that pills were taken from the home by authorities. those pills were one of them. prescription pills for thyroid issues and for blood pressure issues. another important key point here, jim, is that the sheriff says that foul play is not what they're expecting happen in this case, but they haven't completely ruled it out. it's still remains to be seen. what is it that caused their deaths? and that is why they're pointing to that toxicology report into that full autopsy to get the answers that the family needs. >> julia vargas jones, thanks so much. perspective now from cnn chief, law enforcement and intelligence analyst john miller. john, good to have you. i wonder, tell us how crucial that piece of information that february 17th was, the last day that hackman's pacemaker logged heartbeats?

>> well. >> it's really useful. and the reason. >> it's the last. >> day it. logged heartbeats is when. >> the. >> pacemaker starts, stops getting a response from the heart, it stops sending data. >> so that gives us a very good idea that that. >> is the day. >> about february. >> 17th. >> that whatever the. >> events that occurred. >> in that house that caused. >> his death. >> and likely. >> his wife's on the same day that it happened. that's really useful for investigators to know. >> uh. officials there, citing federal privacy laws for not revealing the prescription medications in the home. would they have a good idea at this point, though, of the type and quantity, if that might be lethal? >> yeah. >> they'll know that from what's on. >> the scene. >> but the real. >> question is. that's more important than what they see in the house is when they get that toxicology back. now, that's a, you know, a month long wait in many cases. but depending on what cultures you have to grow out and other tests, it can be

longer. but that is going to give them a better idea of not just what medications were around, but how much of it was in their systems. and is that over what it was supposed to be and what? and could it have been lethal? >> okay, so listen, it's early in a lot of investigation to be done, but but they've ruled out, it seems, carbon monoxide poisoning. they say no sign of foul play or external trauma. are there any explanations that your gut is pointing to right now? >> my gut is pointing to be careful about ruling out with totality carbon monoxide poisoning. because remember, jim, the time that we now believe they died based on the pacemaker data and the time they were found, you know, carbon monoxide presence in blood is very detectable 24 to 48 hours out. um, it can be detected in trace amounts later, but that's a good deal of time. still need to examine all the equipment in the house that could have caused that. whether it's a heater or water, a water heater, a gas

heat, a boiler. um, still need to do further tests on that autopsy because something spontaneous caused them to die separately in separate rooms at the same time. >> yeah, that's i mean, those are remarkable circumstances. and of course, ultimately sad. john miller, thanks so much. coming up next, the latest on the condition of pope francis after, sadly, a new medical setback. >> gold bond believes touch says everything it says. >> i see you, i feel you and. i know you. >> gold bond. get in touch with irresistibly. touchable skin. >> they are trying to shut down this legal loophole to get 100mg generic viagra, or 20mg generic cialis, delivered to your door for just $0.87 in less than two minutes. do this first, scan the qr code to go to get friday

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