news for you are having fun with how the democrats chose to protest congressman al green censure this week. take a look. >> here's mike. >> johnson dropping the hammer. >> the house has resolved that representative al green be censured. >> after the vote, democrats sang a spiritual to support their colleague roy. >> i will flip this whole desk. i swear. to christ. >> bonus question. >> roy. >> which spiritual did they sing? no way. michael. hit it. >> michael. >> we. >> shall. overcome. >> no. >> we shall. >> overcome. >> and then they went into bass. how low can you go, bro? what a brother! >> know once again., back is. >> the income. >> it was very surprising, but it was beautifully executed. >> what? civil rights 90 cnc

music factory crossover. did you just you can catch the all new episode of have i got news for you tonight at 9 p.m. >> on cnn. and thank you very much for watching news night. cnn's coverage continues next. >> tonight on 360. breaking news. >> elon musk. >> at the center of what the new york times calls. >> an. >> explosive meeting at the white house. a first glimpse of how anger over doge is building inside the administration. also, president trump began the day with the threat of sanctions on russia. but tough talk didn't last long. trump's former national security advisor, ambassador john bolton, joins me tonight and later. we now know what happened to actor gene hackman and his wife and the cause of her death and the timing of it is surprising. good evening. we start with the breaking news. just three nights ago, elon musk was receiving a standing ovation from president trump and congressional republicans before a joint session of congress. the president personally thanked him and said, you're working very hard. but tonight, a new report shows that musk wasn't as warmly

received by trump's cabinet behind closed doors. in a meeting last night, the headline for the new york times reads inside the explosive meeting where trump officials clashed with elon musk. the subheadline reads simmering anger at the billionaire's unchecked power spilled out in a remarkable cabinet room meeting. the president quickly moved to rein in mr. musk. now, the new york times says that thursday's meeting was abruptly scheduled one night earlier. that would be about the same time that sources say house republicans were meeting with musk, also behind closed doors, to try and reassert their power of the purse. the times says the cabinet meeting was a sign that trump is mindful of growing complaints about what doge is doing. just this week, we reported on tens of thousands of jobs possibly being cut at the veterans affairs department, many of them actual veterans. there's also been extensive reporting by cnn and the new york times and many others about bogus claims by doge of major spending cuts and when their false claims were pointed out, the items were quietly removed from doge so-called wall of

receipts. without explanation. the times report includes two specific confrontations in that closed door meeting. the first was between elon musk and secretary of state marco rubio. this is how, in part, the times describes the scene. quote, you fired nobody, mr. musk told mr. rubio. mr. musk was not being truthful, mr. rubio said. what about the more than 1500 state department officials who took early retirement in buyouts? didn't they count as layoffs? he asked sarcastically whether mr. musk wanted him to rehire all those people just so he could make a show of firing them again. then, according to the times, mr. musk was unimpressed. he told mr. rubio he was good on tv, with the clear subtext being that he was not good for much else. according to the times. mr. musk. finally, mr. trump, i should say, finally intervened to defend. mr. rubio is doing a great job today. the president was asked about the scene in the times reporting. here's how he responded. >> mr. president. >> since you last spoke about it yesterday, some details have

come out about your cabinet meeting with elon musk and some clashes potentially between secretary rubio and secretary duffy. >> clash, i was there, you're just a troublemaker and you're not supposed to be asking that question because we're talking about the world cup. elon gets along great with marco and they're both doing a fantastic job. there is a clash. >> mr. president, who has more authority, elon musk or your cabinet secretaries. >> any other questions about the world cup? >> well, the new reporting comes after politico reported that trump had told top members of his administration that musk was, quote, empowered to make recommendations to the departments, but not to issue unilateral decisions on staffing and policy. we start tonight with kyle cheney, who shares a byline on that politico story. also, the new york times's kate conger, coauthor of character limit how elon musk destroyed twitter. so the president says there was no clash. can you walk us through some of what you've learned? >> sure. well, i mean, look, this is this is the question that's animating the entire

early part of the second trump administration, which is what exactly is elon musk doing? what power has donald trump given him, and is he wielding it unilaterally or is he doing it, you know, as sort of an advisory recommendation? and the cabinet secretaries are carrying it out for him in court. the argument has been, well, elon musk doesn't really have any real decision making power. but as you see from this cabinet meeting, the cabinet secretary seemed to disagree with that. they feel like they're being steamrolled by elon musk and they don't like it, and they're starting to push back. so this is actually going to have some repercussions, i think, in the legal battles that are facing doge and elon musk over what kind of power he's actually wielding, because it sounds a lot more serious and substantive than what they've been presenting in court. >> kate, are you surprised that musk authority over firings has? i mean, it seems, i guess, been somewhat constrained. i don't know how realistic the constraint is or not. >> well, i think the. >> constraint here is going to cause a big clash, because musk is someone who likes to be the final authority on decisions in all of his companies and all of his business dealings. he's always the one who's calling the

shots and being told that he can't. i don't know how long that will last, kyle, what do you know about why the president decided to try to curb some of musk's power over the cabinet? >> because then later on, he put out a statement saying, you know, things would be done with with the scalpel, not with the hatchet, which certainly flies in the face of elon musk, you know, running around the stage with a chainsaw. >> right. and i mean, and yet in the same breath, he said, you know, by the way, cabinet, if you don't cut enough, elon is going to come in and do it. so he's kind of saying a little bit of what he thinks. i think everyone wants to hear in this case, and it's hard to tell. is he really constraining elon musk or is he trying to placate the cabinet to a degree and will sort of let this play out and see how it shakes out another day? again, this is all happening in the backdrop of an enormous wave of lawsuits against what elon musk is doing. and i think every word that comes out of the president's mouth is, you know, is legally salient to that's why his speech in praising elon musk as the head of doge in a speech to congress, you know, immediately

had repercussions both in court and and possibly with his other cabinet members. and i think, you know, it's a lot of it's a rorschach test right now. and this is sort of the next phase of it. >> kyle, what does it say? the fact that this meeting even leaked out, the details of this meeting began to leak out. >> well, i wonder how long you can sit on a meeting where you have that kind of explosive and tempestuous sort of interaction. it just seemed like, you know, number one, i think they wanted it out there that donald trump was constraining elon musk. they wanted that message out there that he is putting curbs on him in part, again, for some legal advantage, and also, maybe again, to sort of let his cabinet know, hey, i got your back to a degree. but once you had those clashes, i think the idea that they would keep that, that hidden for long was probably a too late. >> kate, how unusual is it for people to criticize elon musk to his face during a meeting, whether it's the secretary of state or anyone else? i mean, is he used to that kind of pushback? it seems like he's often surrounded by people who very are very quick to laugh at

all his, you know, jokes. >> a lot of the people in musk's inner circle are, yes, men who will go along with whatever he directs them to do. he did encounter a lot of this kind of pushback when he was taking over twitter. there were employees there who were telling him he couldn't do what he wanted to do, or raising legal complications and saying, you know, this might not conform with law, and we need to do it differently. and in those situations where he was challenged, especially in a group setting where other people were witnessing that, he was very quick to lash out and to fire those people. and so this raises an interesting question where he is not in charge of these cabinet appointments, whether he will lean on trump to try to get rid of some of these people who are challenging them. he does not like to be challenged publicly in particular. and so this is going to be a very tense moment for him. >> kyle, is it clear to you at this point? i mean, who or what is the decision making process on who's getting fired? and i mean, is it elon musk just making recommendations to

cabinet secretaries or to the president and then the president making the decision? how much? i mean, do we know at this stage? >> we don't. and i think that's been an intentionally moving target. you know, we spent weeks on this goose chase about who's even the administrator of doge. and they put it. they named a person eventually. but is that person really wielding any authority. and again, we're in this semantics about is elon musk, the head of doge, the administrator of doge. it seems, by design, to both outrun the courts and outrun even the you know, these decisions are happening so fast that by the time we figure out, you know, who's even in doge, they've already done enormous, you know, made enormous transformations to the government. and so, it seems by design to be a, you know, something we're chasing constantly. >> kyle cheney, thanks so much. appreciate it. also, kate conger, thank you so much. appreciate it. a perspective now from new york democratic congressman dan goldman, who sits on the house judiciary and homeland security committees. congressman goldman, i want to get to the looming government funding deadline in a moment, because it seems like a lot of this is kind of a distraction to

try to avoid attention on that. but but what do you make of the president's cabinet secretaries reportedly sparring with with musk? >> well, i find it very noteworthy not only that, the cabinet secretaries are clearly bristling at what elon musk is doing, but we've started to hear some comments from some republican senators about needing congressional approval for what he's doing. and what it tells me is that elon musk is completely arbitrary, arbitrarily slashing staff members in the federal government. and these cabinet secretaries who actually have to run those agencies, do not appreciate musk coming in without any idea how these agencies run and what they do, and just chopping people based on keywords that he found in an algorithm. and it just goes to show that he's not finding waste, fraud and abuse. he is just taking an ax to whatever he

feels like. and the cabinet secretaries are now upset. sean duffy was referenced in that article, referenced a dispute about firing air traffic controllers who have immense training, a long training system. it's not easy to become an air traffic controller, which is why we don't have enough. and musk is disputing with him conversations that he had. elon musk. anderson is trying to do to the federal government what he did to twitter. but the federal government is not a business. and those revenues and those programs that the federal government has are what people rely on. and elon musk is going to hurt a lot of people because he does not care about anything other than lining his own pockets. >> there's no way if you are actually looking for waste, fraud and abuse and trying to figure out what employees are doing a good job, what employees are not, there's no way you can do that in the amount of time

that elon musk and his team of of, you know, cyber kids and, you know, people in their early 20s have just gone in there. i mean, there's probably ways to do that in an organized way based on institutional knowledge. it doesn't seem like that's how they're doing it. >> of course not. first of all, if you're looking for fraud, that obviously takes some investigation. if you're looking for waste, you have to figure out exactly what each program is doing and whether it's effective or not. elon musk, as the new york times reported, and you mentioned several times on this show, anderson, ten of his 12 top line items of canceled programs on this wall of receipts were false or inaccurate or misleading. >> right. they said there was $8 billion, an $8 billion i.c.e. contract canceled. it was actually $8 million. 8 billion is the entire the entire budget

for i.c.e. and that was a new york times david fahrenthold found that. >> absolutely. and even so, even by his own account, he is making all sorts of mistakes. and that's before he has any idea what these programs actually do. so let's not pretend that this is rooting out waste, fraud, and abuse. i would love to root out waste, fraud, and abuse. and there's a process to do that. and i would be happy to work with the administration to do that. that's not what elon musk is doing. and notably, anderson, somehow none of his $13 billion of government contracts he has determined to be waste, fraud and abuse. >> congress is facing a deadline to keep the government funded past the end of next week. it obviously comes at a time when the president's unpredictable approach to tariffs is causing instability in the markets. do you expect the usual washington brinkmanship against the threat of a shutdown? and how much of this, you know, this focus on doge is an intentional distraction from the tax cuts

and the money that's going to be added, the trillions that's going to be added to the deficit. >> look, by the reports that we're getting and what i'm hearing, the republicans are going to put a continuing resolution to go to the end of the fiscal year, september 30th, which would be the first time in a long, long time that there was no appropriations bill to fund the government for an entire fiscal year. this is why that is so bad. first of all, it keeps funding levels where they are right now. and as we know, inflation has gone up, our needs have gone up. it constrains agencies as to how they can a use the money and b initiate new programs or new initiatives, but more importantly, it incorporates all those things that elon musk says are waste, fraud and abuse. they refund those and it gives almost unfettered discretion to donald trump and the executive branch and elon musk to move money

around however they want. so this is, quote unquote, a stopgap that is really just designed to give elon musk even more power to do his chainsaw routine. on the federal government. >> congressman goldman, i appreciate your time tonight. thank you. i want to turn to the pentagon and the drive by the trump administration to eliminate not just any efforts to promote diversity in the u.s. armed forces, but eliminate even any mention of diversity. at the end of january, the new secretary of defense, as you know, issued a press release with the headline identity months dead at dod, banning any official recognition of black history month or any other minority groups in the military. but that, it seems, was just the start. last week, the pentagon ordered the removal from its websites. any mention, photographs or videos that, quote, promote diversity, equity and inclusion. now, according to the associated press, more than 26,000 images photographs have been since been flagged for removal across all military branches. unclear why this is a controversial photo, but it was flagged. it's a photo of an

american hero. private first class harold gonsalves, who was born into a mexican-american family in california. he won the medal of honor for his heroic actions during the battle of okinawa in 1945. this photo, showing black military personnel undergoing training at an air force base in illinois during the second world war that was flagged for removal. perhaps it won't be mentioned any longer in the official histories the defense department. but lest we forget, the u.s. military was segregated until 1948. during world war two, black men and women served in all branches of the armed forces while they were facing racism and segregation. it wasn't until 1948 that president harry s truman signed an executive order banning segregation. here's another photo apparently flagged for removal. air force staff sergeant christina scales in 2009. that's when the photo was taken. she's performing a preflight check before departing on a mission in a c-17. why this photo is worthy of purging from the pentagon's public records is unclear. apparently, anything

related to gay service members is now also to be purged, including this photo of the b-29 aircraft that dropped the first atomic bomb on hiroshima august 6th, 1945. now, why would an aircraft be flagged for removal? it appears because the name of the plane is the enola gay. it was named after the pilots mom, enola gay tibbets. but the mere mention of the word gay has someone in the administration clutching at their pearls. still to come tonight, the president says we're doing very well with russia. hours after threatening them with sanctions, his former national security adviser, ambassador john bolton, joins us to talk about it. also, has the mystery been solved? major new developments tonight about when and how legendary actor gene hackman and his wife died. we'll have the latest ahead. >> are you hungry? >> i'm hungry. >> perfect. >> i'm so excited. this is cuisine at a different level. oh, yeah. food makes me so happy. >> eva longoria searching for

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>> com physicians mutual, physicians mutual., united. >> states of scandal with jake tapper returns tomorrow at nine on cnn. >> well, this morning it seemed president trump might be shifting his tone toward russia. he posted this on social media, quote, based on the fact that russia is absolutely pounding ukraine on the battlefield right now. i am strongly considering large scale banking sanctions, sanctions and tariffs on russia until a ceasefire and final settlement agreement on peace is reached to russia and ukraine. get to the table right now before it is too late. thank you. but that posture didn't last long. hours later, he had this exchange with a reporter. >> president putin is. >> bombing ukraine. >> do you still believe him when he tells you that he wants peace? >> you know, i believe him, i believe him. i think we're doing very well with russia. but right now, they're bombing the hell out of ukraine and ukraine. i'm. i'm finding it more difficult, frankly, to deal with ukraine. and they don't have the cards. they don't have the cards.

>> from large scale banking sanctions to we're doing very well with russia. in just a few hours. again, like in that oval office confrontation, president trump said that ukrainian president zelenskyy doesn't have the cards. he also doesn't have military aid and some intelligence sharing, which the president has paused. today, president trump also suspended ukraine's access to certain commercial satellite imagery purchased by the u.s. government. ukraine uses the imagery to track russian troop movements. now that news comes as russia launched a major assault on several regions across ukraine last night, 70 missiles and almost 200 drones were used. two u.s. defense officials tell cnn that the u.s. is still sharing intelligence ukraine can use to defend itself, but has, quote, scaled back sharing intelligence that could be used to go on the offense. today, the president was asked about the attacks and the pause in aid. >> do you, mr. president, think that vladimir putin is taking advantage of the u.s. pause. >> right now on intelligence and military aid to ukraine? >> no, i actually think he's doing what anybody else would

do. i think he's a i think he wants to get it stopped and settled. and i think he's hitting him harder than than he's been hitting him. and i think probably anybody in that position would be doing that right now. >> joining me now is john bolton, who served as national security adviser to the president during his first term and as u.s. ambassador to the un in the george w. bush administration. ambassador bolton, thanks for being here. how does this president go from talking about sanctions in the morning against russia to essentially saying their strategy of pounding ukraine is what anybody would do in this situation and taking advantage of the president's position. >> well, because. >> i think he knew that the so-called threat this morning was totally hollow, as did vladimir putin. and he did it simply to try and show some kind of balance, given the things he had said about zelenskyy and the ukrainians. if you look at the statement about the actual threat, he threatens three things banking, sanctions,

sanctions and tariffs. now, i'll assume there's banking sanctions are just a subset of sanctions. i don't know what why you why you would have two separate things. >> but let's take tariffs first. >> i don't understand that. who knows. but on on tariffs. russian exports to the united states last year. the only year we have full statistics. we're a little bit less than $3 billion which is trivial compared to to the total volume of u.s. trade with the rest of the world. and in fact, in 2021, in other words, the last full year before russia's invasion in 2022, they were they were about 30 billion. so over this period of time since the invasion, u.s. imports from russia have already shrunk 90%. so the tariff thing is, is effectively meaningless banking sanctions. you know, if there are banking sanctions we haven't imposed on russia, i'd like to know why not? but in any event, as with really all the sanctions that have been imposed

and this this is a general problem for sanctions. russia has very successfully evaded, particularly the financial sanctions moving through china's opaque financial system to get into global markets. so i think putin completely understood that that threat was totally hollow. >> it seems now the u.s. is not doing cyber operations against russia, according to reporting. we've mentioned new reporting that the trump administration has suspended ukraine's access to commercial satellite imagery purchased by the u.s. government, which comes after the pause in u.s. military aid and the sharing of intelligence. how long do you think the ukrainians can hold up without that kind of support well, it's a question of what other nato members may be able to supply them. >> i think it's it's it's really despicable to to stop providing the intelligence to to ukraine. it's this is all part of how trump does business.

it's all personal. i know this is hard to understand that people think there's some policy behind it, but it's not. this is trump believes that u.s. relations with other countries are embodied in his personal relations with the foreign heads of state. he thinks vladimir putin is his friend. he's never liked zelenskyy, not since the famous perfect phone call in 2019. and this is what you're getting. but if i may come to this order suspending offensive cyber operations against russia, this is a huge mistake for the united states. forget ukraine. this isn't going to make russia more eager to come to the table. it's the rest of trump's policies abandoning ukraine and taking russia's side that prevent russia from coming to the table. why should they negotiate when trump gives them everything they want? and even more importantly, i think the cyber operators would tell you that part of what's important here in dealing with russia, china, iran, north korea, any of

our cyber adversaries is to have what they call persistent engagement. if you're not always probing the russians, you're giving them a chance to to tee up their own offensive operations. if there were some deal here, a momentary truce, that would be one thing. this looks to me like just another trump giveaway. >> and just so i'm clear, is it true that that russia is always probing the u.s. and civilian infrastructure and hospitals and electrical systems to try to see weaknesses? >> i think i think that's clear. the russians say, oh, it's not russia. no, it's some troll farm operating under some fake name, some cutout operation, but they're doing it all the time. and and really, it's i think we've improved our offensive game beginning in the trump administration when we loosened obama administration restrictions on offensive cyber. but cyber is like any other human domain. if you're not if you're not probing the

adversary, you're taking risks for america. again, forget ukraine here. that's not part of the equation. you're taking risks for america again, forget ukraine here. that's not part of the equation. this is backing away from dealing with the russian cyber threat. i think it's a big mistake. >> ambassador bolton, i appreciate your time. thank you. coming up next, why president trump is threatening new tariffs for canada after announcing that one month pause just yesterday. plus, a new mexico chief, the new mexico chief medical examiner reveals the cause of death for actor gene hackman and the surprising cause of death for his wife, and including a new timeline of their final days. we'll be right back. >> ben thinks he's about to compete in a new reality show, but it's all completely fake. >> all right. >> see how ben handles this? >> he is trying so. >> hard and. >> everything is going well. >> it is hard to stay in character. >> she's got the. >> giggles. >> this show. is wild. >> and i feel like. >> i'm going insane. >> this is so good.

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responders, military and law enforcement only@gov.com. >> twitter. breaking the bird. >> premieres tomorrow night at ten on cnn. >> just one day after ordering a month long suspension of punishing 25% tariffs on many of the goods that come across the border from canada, president trump has changed course again and put brand new tariffs on the table. >> canada has been ripping us off for years on tariffs, for lumber and for dairy products. 250%. nobody ever talks about that. 250% tariff, which is taking advantage of our farmers. so that's not going to happen anymore. we're going to be they'll be met with the exact same tariff unless they drop it. >> this comes after months of president trump expressing a serious interest in america acquiring canada as the 51st state. he also has repeatedly referred to canada's outgoing prime minister as governor justin trudeau. suffice to say, prime minister trudeau is not amused. earlier this week, when the president announced those 25% tariffs, the wall street

journal published this editorial titled trump takes the dumbest tariff plunge, which all led canada's prime minister to say this. >> no, it's not in my habit to agree with the wall street journal. but donald, they point out that even though you're a very smart guy, this is a very dumb thing to do. >> well, running to be the next prime minister of canada is chrystia freeland. she's the former deputy prime minister and former minister of finance. she joins me now. miss freeland, appreciate you being with us. first of all, what do you make of this whiplash coming from the white house? the full steam ahead on tariffs and on pause. and there are more threats. is this a coherent strategy? >> well, look, there have been more flip flops than we can keep track of here in canada. but what we do know is, you know, the prime minister is right. the wall street journal is right. these are the dumbest tariffs in history. this is utterly self-mutilating. it's really a

perverse approach, anderson, because america is hurting itself, moving in this direction. the president is killing the u.s. stock market. your stock market is actually performing worse than the stock market in europe or in canada. you're going to raise the prices on gas. you're going to raise the prices on groceries. you're going to make electricity more expensive. and all for what reason? because canadians aren't nice enough. i mean, come on, this is just utterly absurd. america is hurting itself. and the end result has been to do something which is really hard to do antagonize canadians. there is this wave of patriotism in canada right now, the likes of which i have never seen in my life. we started off being really hurt by this because we know that we are really good friends to you, really good neighbors. we know that so much of america's prosperity has been built on the foundation of having canada, the best neighbor

in the world to your north. but now, i would say canadians are getting really angry. >> well, let me ask the president has you are a candidate to be the next prime minister of canada. the president has attacked you personally, calling you a, quote, wack and claiming credit for your resignation as finance minister and deputy prime minister. how would you approach these negotiations if you became the new head of the government? because what the president is saying is, you know, you have been the candidate has been ripping off american on lumber and dairy and that this would be, you know, payback for that. >> well, anderson, i and the vast majority of canadians consider that name calling by the president to be juvenile, but also a compliment. and during the first negotiations we had with president trump, there was tons of name calling. there was tons of hollering and kicking and screaming during the negotiations themselves. his nickname for me was the killer,

which i definitely took as a compliment. and the good news is, after all, coming from him, right? but the good news is, after all of that, kicking and shouting and screaming, and after the president said he was going to rip up his trade deal with us, we renegotiated it. he said new deal that we have now was the best trade deal ever. i negotiated it. i happened to agree with him. he did impose tariffs on us. my response was dollar for dollar retaliation. and after a few months without any concessions, he lifted those tariffs. and the reason for that, anderson, is, you know, the laws of economics. they're like the laws of gravity. you can do all kinds of social media posts and make up funny names. but at the end of the day, the laws of economics prevail. and the reality is your economic relationship with us is great. it is balanced. it is mutually beneficial. it is good for the united states. it is good for

canada. and that's why, as prime minister, my approach would be united, strong and smart. i'm sure there would be lots of insults. i'm sure there would be lots of name calling. and i'm also sure at the end of the day, we would get back to a win-win. >> miss freeland, i appreciate your time tonight. thank you very much. thank you, chrystia freeland. up next, stunning new details from the chief medical examiner on why movie legend gene hackman and his wife died and when and later, the worsening measles outbreak in west texas will take you there when it. comes to rooting out. >> corruption. >> do the fbi's ends justify. >> the means? >> it was humiliating. >> it's an embarrassment for the country. >> the united. >> states of scandal with jake tapper tomorrow at 9:00 on cnn. >> this is a story about. >> the one. >> the untrained eye may. >> not see, the one as. >> extraordinary.

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>> and this is cnn. >> closed captioning brought to you by aarp. join and get instant access. >> to member benefits. >> join aarp for $15 for one year with automatic renewal, and get instant access to member benefits and social programs. join and get a free gift. plus, aarp, the magazine. >> we have new information on the deaths of film legend gene hackman and his wife, betsy. new mexico's chief medical examiner revealed this afternoon that she died of a rare disease linked to rodents. several days before hackman, and he likely had no idea because he had alzheimer's disease. his death is in connection to that, and heart disease as well. cnn's josh campbell has more. >> the manner of death is natural. >> a mystery solved, revealing tragic circumstances. >> as a new mexico. >> chief medical. >> examiner released autopsy conclusions in the deaths of gene hackman and his wife, betsy arakawa hackman. >> based on the circumstances, it is reasonable to conclude that miss hackman passed away

first, with february 11th being the last time that she was known to be alive. mr. hackman probably. >> came about one week after his wife passed away, also at their home. according to investigators, their bodies were found on february 26th, both showing signs of what authorities referred to in a search warrant affidavit as mummification. >> i think he died as a result of his his heart disease and with alzheimer's being that contributing factor, he was in a very poor state of health. he had significant heart disease. and i think ultimately that is what resulted in his death. >> 65 year old betsy hackman likely died from hantavirus pulmonary syndrome, a rare infectious disease transmitted from rodents to humans. infection can come up to two months after exposure to mice, droppings and urine and cause flu like symptoms, according to the medical examiner. >> i don't know when she began to feel ill, and those are just things that i don't know that i'm ever going to have the answers to. >> even more questions still remain.

>> there is no reliable scientific method to accurately determine the exact time or date of death. he was in an advanced state of alzheimer's, and it is quite possible that he was not aware that she was deceased. what about starvation? there was no food in his stomach, which means he had not eaten recently, but he had also no evidence of dehydration. >> officials had previously narrowed down the timing of gene hackman's death, using data from his pacemaker. his last event was recorded on february 17th, 2025. the sheriff also revealed new details about the hackman's final days after tracking the couple's cell phones and mrs. hackman's communication and activities that suddenly stopped on february 11th. she was walking around, she was shopping, she was visiting stores. but my detectives didn't indicate that there was any problem with her or struggle of her getting around. >> and josh campbell joins me now. does the investigation

continue? >> it does. it's not closed yet. authorities are still trying to figure out what happened to that poor family dog. obviously, being in a crate for a prolonged period of time without food or water would be the likely cause of death, but they are conducting a necropsy just to confirm. they're also trying to pull certain details off of the cell phones of gene and betsy hackman. all that said, sheriff adan mendoza in santa fe said that he believes authorities are very close to finalizing their timeline regarding what they think happened here with this tragic case. anderson. >> josh campbell, thanks very much. joining us now is death investigator barbara butcher, who oversaw the remains recovery effort at the world trade center site after 9/11. barbara, how would a medical examiner determine that? mrs. hackman died approximately a week before her husband? because, as we mentioned before, law enforcement said both bodies showed signs of what they call mummification. >> yes, well. >> mummification is one form of decomposition. when a body is in. >> a warm environment. and the and. >> the person dies, bacterial action can run wild and start this process of liquefying or,

or decomposing the body. and it will result in abdominal swelling and perhaps swelling of other areas. but in this very cool average 50 degrees in santa fe and very dry environment, less than 20% humidity, we would expect to see some degree of decomposition of the hands and fingers, possibly the fingers, possibly the face as well. areas that don't have a lot of fat or fluid. and so we can look at the stages of decomposition. >> how rare is it for someone to contract and die from hantavirus? >> you know, it's a very rare disease, but in the past, i've warned friends who are cleaning out sheds, wear a mask, don't sweep up mouse droppings or rodent droppings, because once they're aerosolized, it's. you

can, you know, it results in you inhaling the virus and becoming very ill. now i understand that they're in a very rural area or near rural, and so we would expect to see plenty of rodents in that in that area. or perhaps they had a little outbuilding outside their home. and it's perfectly natural that if she cleaned up even a little bit, swept away some mouse droppings, they would aerosolize and she would catch that disease. and it's nearly 40% fatal, really. >> so it's not it's it's hard to treat. and is it is it transmissible from human to human. i mean, would would he have could he have caught it from her i don't believe so. >> i think it's it depends. it's very dependent on inhaling the particulate matter. and as far as contagion, i don't know if it's particularly contagious. do you need those viral

particles? >> the medical examiner said that because of his advanced alzheimer's, he may not have been aware that his wife had died. have you ever come across a situation where someone with a form of dementia wasn't aware that a spouse or caretaker had died in the home? >> yes, absolutely. it's terribly sad. once that alzheimer's has advanced to a sufficient degree that the person is unaware of their surroundings and disoriented, he may have carried on with his life. it it appears to me that since he was in the mud room with his cane and sunglasses, perhaps he was going out for a walk, or coming back from a walk, and he collapsed, had a cardiac event and died, and he may not have known that she was dead. >> wow. it's just it's such a sad end to such an extraordinary life and such an extraordinary relationship for both of them. barbara butcher, i appreciate your expertise and being with us. thank you so much. coming up next, we're going to take you to the epicenter of the west texas

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gaines county, where the outbreak was first identified. now, there might be a second measles death in a neighboring new mexico county, where 30 people have gotten the disease. health officials there are investigating. the virus caused the death of an unvaccinated person who tested positive for measles, but did not seek medical attention. nick watt has more now from texas. >> the epicenter. >> of the measles. >> outbreak is rural. >> gaines county. why here? why now? is this coming from the mennonite community? >> that's the. biggest cohort. >> of the. >> population that. >> is unvaccinated. and so the. predominant people that are we're seeing with it are in the mennonite community. >> but it's not only them. >> the mennonites are. >> anabaptists who farmed around here since the 1970s. tina simmons runs a museum. >> it literally. >> goes back. >> to the 1500s. back in germany. >> charting her people's centuries long flight from religious persecution and their time here in texas.

>> under a normalen gehören. >> she's now translating health department offers of vaccines. for karen. and canon. >> getroffen werden. no one will be turned. away if they cannot meet the. >> payment. >> but that's falling on some deaf ears. older mennonites like tina, had to get the vaccine to get american citizenship after immigrating here. but now the younger generation is choosing not to vaccinate. >> because they have the. capability of educating themselves. >> so this is not a blind religious belief. this is an educated whether it's right or wrong. this is an educated choice. >> absolutely. >> but is in line with centuries of mennonite tradition self-sufficiency. >> they have been self-sustaining. they did not go to the local doctor for everything because they had a home remedy. >> still, she feels her people are being scapegoated, while others around here also refuse

the vaccine. across gaines county, more than 17% of kids in public schools have a so-called conscientious exemption, so don't need to be vaccinated. that's according to the latest state figures, and is among the highest in the state, which is just one of 16 states that allows that. there are hesitance among the non mennonites. >> i think covid. >> did bring a lot of distrust. >> to the public, and. >> it certainly. >> didn't help us with already people having. >> distrust of. >> the health care system. >> there's a very friendly small town vibe around here, people very happy to chat over lunch about the weather and whatnot, even when they know we're from cnn. but people we've spoken to who are against the vaccine, they'll tell us over the phone that they think it's dangerous, that they value personal and medical liberty, but they won't talk to us with a camera. they say that they fear that their message will be misconstrued, that they'll be judged, and that people will

just hate on them. >> we are trying our best to communicate to the public. >> do you do you speak to them about why they're hesitant? >> it can vary from their parents didn't vaccinate them, or it could be that they read certain things from wherever on the internet. association with autism or association with vaccine injury. a lot of different misbeliefs. >> do you see this getting much worse before it gets better here? >> honestly, with the numbers that we're seeing now, i think it is going to just get worse from here. i think our chances of keeping it contained has gone out the window. >> some, not many, among the vaccine, skeptical mennonites and others are now coming in to get the shots. >> i heard of a family yesterday that that really encouraged the vaccine. so there's. >> there's a range. >> there's a range. >> and it's personal choice. >> that's you got it. that's key. personal choice. and praise the lord. we have that freedom here in america. >> so to use a cliche, what's happening in western texas really is a perfect storm.

you've got this large vaccine. skeptical mennonite community, growing vaccine skepticism across the broader population and laws in texas that allow people to express that skepticism by not getting their kids vaccinated. so are outbreaks like this going to become more common across the country? well, the data might suggest they are, you know, you need 95% vaccine coverage in a community to stop these outbreaks. taking hold and taking off. it's called herd immunity. now, we used to have that across the united states, measured by kindergartners getting the mmr that was above 95% just five years ago. it's now below 93%, 5% just five years ago. it's now below 93%. skepticism is rising. vaccination rates are falling, and also the department of health and human services is now led by rfk jr., who this week