we'll leave the question unanswered to night. we love hearing from you. to send us your thoughts go, to lou dobbs.com. join us on friday on the lou dobbs radio show on wwor 710 in new york and go to loudobbs.com to get the local listings in your area. thanks for being with us. now campbell brown. -- captions by vitac -- www.vitac.com tonight, hear the questions we want answered. could a family intervention have saved michael jackson? tonight, new information about how his sister janet and his mother tried to get him help. was there anything more his family could have done? we'll talk to a doctor who may know. plus, did a suburban philadelphia swim club really ban kids because they're black? >> it's sad that people are thinking this. >> tonight, shocking charges of

discrimination. and new details about the murder of steve mcnair. why do some star athletes go astray when they're out of the spotlight. >> when you make a transition away from the game, emotionally, physically, mentally, spiritually, you change. >> warren moon joins us live. plus, the tapes you have to hear. a man holding his wife hostage, calls a reporter during the standoff. that reporter joins us live. hi, everybody. those are big questions tonight. we start, as always with the matchup. is a look at our stories making an impact right now and the moments you might have missed. we're watching it all so you don't have. to we're going to start in iran where a fragile 11-day calm

shattered. thousands of protesters, again, taking to the streets in open defiance of the government as police use violence to crush the demonstrations. >> several eyewitnesses reported members of the pro government besiege beating people with batons. also, we're hearing some aggressive pointed chants targeting the government. we're hearing death to the dictator. death to hamani. a lot of people had their eye on this date, the 10-year anniversary of a student protest that took place in july of 1999. members of the opposition movement without approval from opposition leaders apparently used this opportunity to come out into the street and protest the june 12th vote. >> iran's supreme leader says the election results will stand. in washington, republicans stepping up their assault on president obama today saying his stimulus plan hasn't done squat. but they got some unexpected

pushback from billionaire investor warren buff whoet told abc's "good morning america" one stimulus isn't enough for him. he wants more. >> the first stimulus bill i didn't think anything of it. it's like taking a half tablet of viagra. and then having also a bunch of candy mixed in there, you know, everybody that was putting in things for their own constituencies. it doesn't have really quite the wallop that might have been anticipated. >> as for president obama, he was an ocean away from the stimulus smackdown. >> day two of the g-8 summit, the yearly gathering of the world's largest economic powers, despite the fact that this is a meeting about global economy, president obama's taking heat over economic concerns here at home. >> you've heard the expression, you know, while rom sechlt burning, it seems like while the president is in rome, he's seeing problems domestically. and, you know, while he's away -- >> the president came here hoping to forge consensus on an

aggressive response to global warming. >> our seas are melting. sea levels are rising. every nation on this planet is at risk. >> in the end, there was disp t disappointment. >> check out this close encounter between president obama and the leader of libya, muammar kadavy. a leader the world once shunned. now the united states and libya have full diplomatic relations. and the two leaders met in italy today. tomorrow, president obama meets with pope den benedict at the vatican and then an to ghana. our anderson cooper is on that trip and will have a full report on monday. a horrifying story tonight from just outside chicago. 300 graves at a historic african-american cemetery ripped up and resold. this is just unbelievable. check it out. >> investigators say employees

at burr oaks cemetery are gigging up graves, discarding the remains and then reselling and reusing those plots. >> this was not done in a very, very delicate way, folks. the digging occurred, they would excavate the grave and the entire site and then they would proceed to dump the remains wherever they found a place to do it in the back of the semiconductor airy. this was not replacing graves. it was not moving graves. this was dumping of them. >> you are kidding me? >> no, i'm not kidding you. i'm not kigd. and also, the other side that is terrifying to see are the people that are wandering around the cemetery looking for their family member. and some of them, we talked to one lady, we'll have something on her later, she said my brother is not here. so there are people just wandering around looking for their family member. >> many of these families are almost having to relive their

grief, rebury their lost loved ones again today because of all this. it's an absolutely tragic, horrible situation on the southwest side of chicago. >> four cemetery workers are charged in the crime. new developments tonight over jackson memorial. the jackson's may be able to burr i didn't think pop star at his neverland ranch. santa barbara county would have to green light the plan. they haven't heard from the family yet. it is, of course, two weeks to the day now since michael jackson died. and he still hasn't been laid to rest. meantime, president obama's drug czar is trying to turn the pop star's death into a teaching moment. check him out. this is on cbs's early show. >> certainly michael jackson's very sad, the loss of him is a wakeup call to this country. so all of the prescription drugs have legitimate medical uses. but the key is they're being abused. and the key is that parents can

actually help prevent a lot of this. and there are a lot of ways to do that. >> and remember that congressional resolution honoring michael jackson? yeah, not happening. >> michael jackson was a great, great performer. and lots of sadness there for many reasons. there's an opportunity on the floor of the house to express their sympathy or their praise any time that they wish. i don't think it's necessary for us to have this resolution. >> further proof, politics and pop stars just don't mix. and speaking of things that don't mix with politics, how about payoffs? today a senator sex scandal got a little more scandalous. >> last year i had an affair. >> when john ensign admitted his affair, he called it the worst thing he had ever done. now $96,000 in payments to the family of his mistress. they were paid to the senator's

parents after the husband found out about the affair in early 2008. >> now that husband is speaking out. >> to pay severance. >> to my knowledge, that's correct. >> how much? >> that i don't know. >> she's your wife. was it more than $25,000? >> absolutely. >> a lot more? >> yes. >> a lot more than $25,000. he got serious issues. that was never disclosed. >> senator ensign's attorney put out a statement today that reads in part, in april 2008, senator john ensign's parents each made gifts to doug hampton, cindy hampton and two of their children in the form of a check.

>> oh, boy. and with that, we pause for something not at all scandalous, just babies playing in a park, gone viral in a big way. check it out. ♪ ♪ >> that is actually a commercial for evian. we're not exactly sure how it sells water. but we love it anyway. now that you're cheerful. our punch line taking aim at the nonpalin half of last year's republican ticket. >> senator john mccain says he's

been using twitter to share his opinions on this year's major league baseball all-star game. yes. twittering. yeah. apparently no one has the heart to tell mccain he's been twittering on his garage door opener. >> and that is "mash-up." we have breaking news to tell you about. l.a.'s police chief telling cnn tonight they are looking into michael jackson prescription drug use as part of their investigation into his death. right now they are trying to determine if it was accidental overdose or homicide that killed the pop star. we're going to have that interview very shortly. plus, janet jackson trying to intervene to save her brother from drug abuse. we also got that story. but first, here's what one of jackson's long-time doctors told larry king about his addiction. >> i knew at one point he was

using depravan when he was on tour in germany. he was using it with an anesthesiologist to sleep at night. i told him he was absolutely insane. >> ha ( honking, news radio update ) when you're really in pain, relief can't come fast enough. introducing new bayer quick release crystals. active crystals dissolve quickly on your tongue. with an extra pain relieving booster, it's ready to go to work faster than caplets or tablets. it's a whole new way from bayer to dissolve pain... fast.

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we have breaking news to share. l.a.'s police chief is telling cnn that when the results of the toxicology reports are in, they'll help investigators determine if jackson's death was an accident or a crime. also, "los angeles times" reporting the l.a. coroner's office has subpoenaed medical records and records from a number of jackson doctors including his dermatologist dr. arnie klein. last night klein told our larry king what he claims to have seen and done to try to help jackson. >> michael have an addiction you were aware of? >> michael at one time had an addiction. he went to england and he would

withdrew that addiction in a secure setting where he went off of drugs altogether. and what i told michael when i met him in this present situation where i was seeing him, i had to keep reducing the dosage of what he was on because he came to me with a huge tolerance level. >> did michael tell you he used depravan? >> i knee he was using it when on tour in germany. he was using with an anesthesiologis anesthesiologist. i said you are insane. you have to understand this drug you can't repeatedly take. what happens with narcotics, no matter what you do, you build a tolerance to them. >> and now cnn's todd rollins just spoke with william bratton. this tape coming into us right now. listen to what he told us. >> well, the inquiry into the death of mr. jackson is continuing. we will still await corroboration from the coroner's

office as to the cause of death that is going to be very dependent on the toxicology reports that are due to come back or whatever it is we're dealing with. >> ted rollins joins us right now along withdrew griffin from our special investigations unit. l.a. police chief confirming they're looking into jackson's drug abuse. it could have both been -- or rather been either an accidental overdose or homicide. give us more detail on what he told you. i know you just talked to him. >> yeah. basically what he's saying is they have a far reaching investigation, meaning they're preparing for what he called both the wofrts case scenario. meaning they're going out there assuming this could come back as a potential homicide. they're investigating on that level. and then they're going to wait to see what the coroner says. they're working with the dea and the attorney general here in california. they have questions about where certain drugs come that goes to the dea. they'll run it. and they're also looking at

these doctors who were around him and investigating that track as well. all of it, though, contingent on what the coroner does and in frakt bratton said to me, really the coroner has the next move in this whole thing. we're ready to go whatever way needs -- we need to go. but it is up to the coroner. >> and, again, ted, the timing on that or the anticipated timing on that? >> according to the coroner's office, this afternoon they say they're still looking at about two weeks they need -- two weeks before the final report is completed. >> all right. let me bring drew in. drew, you have new information as well. you learned that jackson family did take some steps in the final years of his life to try to help him or get him help with his addiction. tell us what you know. >> yeah, you know, this has been eluded to before in some tabloid reports. now we're hearing from two source that's early in 2007 michael jackson just returned to the united states. he was in a self-exile living officer in bahrain and ireland after his acquittal on the molestation charges.

he comes back to las vegas to study the celine dion kind of permanent vegas show thinking about that. janet jackson hadn't seen him in a while. and went to visit him and was really shocked, frightened, according to one source. he was living in this rented home that was almost baron of furniture. and according to our sources, jackson found -- janet jackson found her brother shin and disshovelled. she was so shocked by that. when she came back to las vegas in february with a couple of her brothers this was for the nba all-star weekend, she convinced them that let's all go over and see michael jackson and try to stage an intervention to try to have him confront his drug abuse problem. we're told that the security for michael jackson actually prevented janet jackson and her brothers from entering. and at the same time, catherine jackson, his mom, was trying to call him on the phone. he simply was not taking the phone calls. >> and, drew, we have heard friends of michael jackson's say they tried to get him to quit.

i mean how did he respond really when people close to him did try to intervene? >> i think ted and i have both talked to people who have had this experience. and from our sources, they were the same with his family. he would basically just shut you out if you approached him to talk about drug problems. he wasn't mean. he was a very kind person from what he was saying. he would give you lip service and say yeah, yeah, yeah. but then he would stop taking your calls. he would stop seeing you. the source says if you tried to deal with him, he would shut you out and just wouldn't hear from him for long periods of time. >> all right. drew griffin and ted rollins who will be back a little later in the show. we'll have more to report on. this we want to turn to a town known all over hollywood for his work helping celebrities to get clean and sober. his clients have ranged from lindsay lohan to mike tyson and even the jackson family approached him. howard stamamuels runs the wonderland clinic.

i want to ask you about those reports that you were in contact with michael jackson's family to try to get him some help. can you confirm that? >> no. all my conversations and all my clients are all confidential. and i can not talk about any of that. but i can talk about the process of addiction. >> let's speak nor broadly then. michael jackson refused to take calls from his mother s that typical? >> without question. you know, families -- it's so important for families to continue interventions on the people that they love. and the addict will do everything possible to run from the family, not take phone calls, to cut communication because when their drugs are threatened, then their whole exist sense threatened because they're so dependent on the drug

itself. >> so given his resistance, if you had had an intervention or if you had been asked to do an intervention for michael jackson, like you've done with so many celebrities, what would you do? what could you say? what might have worked? >> well, first of all, in any intervention, the power is with the family. if you don't have any financial power over the addict, then the only power you have is emotional leverage. and so in doing an intervention on somebody, you have to bear the family to come in and to try to hit some kind of emotional connection with the client where they can have an understanding that their drug is blocking intimacy and that love from their families, and from the people that care about them the most. i mean i'm a recovering addict myself. i'm 24 years clean and sober. my family saved my life by doing an intervention on me. they continued to intervene. and the only way they were able to get through to me was being

able to hit that emotional cord that i swooz sick and i was so damaged during that time. >> we've heard so many reports about the people around him who were enabling him, it's charged. what do you think about the people who surround michael jackson or from what we know are -- presumably this applies to a lot of celebrities who have drug problems. this is the biggest obstacle to getting help. >> it's horrible. i mean when you have somebody that has so much money, so much fame, they surround themselves with a group of individuals that will help that addict continue in their addiction. they'll get drugs. they'll lie. they'll do whatever they can to protect the celebrity because if they don't do what the celebrity asks them to do, then they're out of a job. and then they are replaced with somebody else. so you have these people. it's like the cult of celebrity. that need to be around these

individuals. and they don't care how they do it. they don't even really care about the individual. they just care about the celebrity of it. >> again, breaking news. we just want to update. l.a. police chief confirming that they are looking into jackson's drug abuse. it could have been an accidental overdose or homicide. a very broad investigation. we have an interview with the lapd chief bratton just moments away. we'll play that for new full. let me say thank you to dr. samuels for joining us to night. really appreciate your time and insight. >> absolutely. when we come back, former football star steve mcnair murdered business i had 20-year-old mistress. now some teammates are talking about what might have led him astray. >> what people fail to realize is that when you make a transition away from a game, emotionally, physically, mentally, spiritually, you go through something. you change. and you're constantly searching for something. multivitamin in .

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we're going to take a look at some of the other must-see stories today. the u.s. military says two marines were killed yesterday fighting in a major operation in afghanistan. the defense department released this video of a fire fight that took place there today when marines and afghans were trying to take on insurgents. there are no word on casualties from that action. tlos day, 15 afghan students, among 25 people killed by a truck bomb near kabul. the taliban denied any responsibility. democrats in congress say the cia has intentionally misled lawmakers for years. en that new cia director lee on

panetta admitted in closed door testimony before the house intelligence committee last movement but what is not exactly clear here is just what information the cia is accused of withholding. republicans, meantime, say the accusations are meant to protect speaker nancy pelosi who claims they did not tell her about water boarding. a democratic source telling cnn illinois senator roland burris won't run in 2010. he struggled to raise campaign funds and rob blagojevich doesn't help. metro operators caught texting on the job as this one appears to be doing. they will be fired. this youtube video is from a couple weeks before that recent metro crash which killed nine people. there is no evidence the operator of that train was texting. a boston tea operator was indicted for gross negligence so yesterday accused texting just before a crash that injureded dozens back in may.

finally this month, after the suspended from competition for smoking pot, michael fell supboen phelps is the fastest swimmer in the world again. phelps now holds five individual world records and 14 olympic gold medals just in case you're keeping track there. i see you updated your talley. >> i did. no long-term damage there for him. that's good news. >> apparently not. >> moving on. erica hill for us. thank you. again, the breaking news. we want to update you. we had -- or we've been told that cardiac arrest had been the cause of michael jackson's death. but now the l.a. police chief is using the word possible homicide and possible overdose. we've got an exclusive interview with chief bill bratton in moments. plus, a reporter covering a hostage crisis becomes part of the story when the suspect calls her. you'll see it play out on video shortly. 6. >> that's it.

he's gone.

we have an interview with the l.a. police chief talking about michael jackson's death, possible overdose or homicide. what exactly they're looking into. ted rollins spoke with him a short time ago. we'll have that for you coming up very shortly here. but first, we want you to take a look at this. this is the scene outside of a nashville funeral home where thousands of fans waited today to pay their respects to steve mcnair. his memorial service expected to begin any moment, actually. police say the ex-nfl quarterback was shot in his sleep last week by his 20-year-old girlfriend who then killed herself. his tragic death is making headlines and raising a whole

lot of questions. >> in private, mcnair was taking a serious and unexpected risk. a married man with children, mcnair was seeing a 20-year-old woman. these pictures of the couple snapped recently by tmz. her family said the relationship had been going for more than five months. >> it was that waitress that they even snapped a picture w she would be the one to pull the trigger on her boyfriend, retired nfl quarterback steve mcnair. >> and the very first thing she asked me, have you ever been in love? >> mcnair was found in a seated position on a sofa with multiple gunshot wounds. >> when i did a preliminary examination, i could only see three gunshot wounds to the victim. >> her body was at the foot of the sofa face down with a single gunshot wound to the head, a weapon was under her body. >> former nfl running back eddie george tells me the man who was murdered was not the steve

mcnair he had known since 1996. >> he was in search of filling a void. >> george believes his old friend was having a crisis of his own, maybe struggling with life after football. >> what people fail to realize is that when you make a transition away from the game, emotionally, physically, mentally, spiritually, you go through something. you change. and you're constantly searching for something. >> when athletes find themselves out of the spotlight, they run into trouble. joining us to talk about why that happens and what happened or may have happened in this case is halve fame quarterback warren moon. during his rookie season, steve mcnair was often compared to warren moon. also joining me is stephen a. smith as well. warren, you had thaeheard that mcnair was having a lot of problems in retirement. tell us what you heard. >> not that he was having a lot

of problems, but he was just trying to figure out what he wanted to do next with his life. and that happens to a lot of guys, especially when retirement comes abruptly. steve, i'm sure, still wanted to play football. but because of injuries, he had to give up the game. and i'm sure he wasn't really prepared for what he wanted to do after football was over. plus, it's just -- even when you are prepared for what you want to do afterwards, it's still a adjustment period for you. this is something you've been doing since you were a little kid. and every fall all the way through the winter that's what your body is known tore doing. it's a high that you get from playing sports not only physically but also emotionally and mentally that you can never find again in regular life. you can't find the combination of all those different things. so you're always searching for that next big challenge in your life. i'm sure steve was at that point. he probably had a lot of time on his hands because he was retired and a lot of players need that structure of football that they've had for so long in order to keep their mind from

wandering and maybe doing some of the wrong things. >> well, did you experience that? i mean do you have a firsthand sense for that? about what that. >> translator: i-- what that transition was like? >> i got to play a long time and left on my own terms. still, even after i left the game, i thought i was going to take time off and not doing anything. i found myself bored and wanted to get busy. you're used to being busy, especially that time of the year. and even though i had a lot of opportunities out there because i was, you know, successful quarterback while i played, unless you have a passion for something and you find i didn't remember self searching on what it is you want to do and find yourself out there, this this is a lot of time on your hands and a lot of thinking. i went through that as well. fortunately, i got myself involved in a lot of different things that keep me very busy. and that time didn't last very long for me. >> stephen, you know, by all accounts, mcnair is one of the good guys. this is a guy that had a sterling reputation. i mean no one would have expected that this would have

happened to him, would they? >> i don't think anybody would have anticipated that he would have ended up getting murdered. i don't think that you ever go as far to say you don't think something like this would happen in terms of him being involved with somebody else. because you simply never know what's going on in somebody else's bedroom. i don't care if you're a football player or you're the governor of south carolina, it really doesn't matter. you just don't know. you have to think about the transition that he had to make and what trab expired throughout his career prior to that retirement. it's not just about what you've accomplished. it's about all the adulation that you received along the way, the people that come into your life because of the success that you have enjoyed, the attention that you have garnered, the reputation that you have built. and when it's all over, and when you fade from the spotlight, what happens is that you start questioning not just yourself but the people around you to some degree in term of what their intent was in regards to

their role in your life and more importantly, you start questioning your own identity. who am i? and where do i go from here? and that's an extremely difficult transition for a lot of people to make. not just athletes, but any successful professional. >> warren, to that point that stephen just made, i mean mcnair was killed by this woman he was having an affair w as a player in the public eye, do you become suspicious or how suspicious do you become of some of the people that surround you? >> well, you're taught that at a very early time coming into football about things like. that they have a rookie symposium that sits them down and goes through all the different cautions to look out for as they become professionals in life. and you should be aware of that anyway. a lot of guys kind of, you know, vacuum themselves with guys they grew up w and sometime the guys that you surround yourself with that came from the same neighborhoods as yourself are not going in the same direction as you. so sometimes that's not a good thing either to surround yourself with guys you grew up

with unless they're on the same path that you are. so you find a lot of guys getting in trouble just because of guilt by association. so it's a fine line that you have to find that you don't want to dissociate with people you grew up with for a long time and had loyalty with, but you also have to make sure that they're quality people that will be around you and make sure they don't look at you or make you look in a bad light. so it's a tough situation there for the people that you hang out with as well. and then there's people coming at you from all different directions because they want befriend you because of the status you have. yes, he have to be very, very careful with your associations. >> thank you so much for sharing your thoughts on this, warren. warren moon joining us tonight there on the telephone and stephen smith from philadelphia as well. thanks, guys, really appreciate it. >> thank you, campbell. >> thank you. and breaking news, again, to update you on tonight in the michael jackson investigation. los angeles police chief william bratton saying for the first time that pop star's death may have been an overdose or a

homicide. they are investigating both. they are focusing their investigation. we'll have more details coming up. we have an interview with chief bratton. we'll be back. we've made a great product even better. now every drop of shell gasolines... contain a nitrogen-enriched cleaning system... that seeks and destroys engine gunk... left by lower-quality gasoline. it protects engines from performance-robbing gunk. try new nitrogen-enriched shell gasolines.

bill bratton is telling cnn's ted rollins a little bit ago that department is waiting for toxicology test results to determine whether jackson's death was a result of an accidental overdose or a homicide. we're going to play the full interview for you right now. take a listen. >> well, the inquiry into the death of mr. jackson is continuing. we will still await corroboration from the coroner's office as to the cause of death. that is going to be very dependent upon the toxicology reports that are due to come back. and based on those, we'll have an idea of what it is that we're dealing with. are we dealing with homicide? are we dealing with an accidental overdose? what are we dealing with? so as we're standing here speaking, i can tell you i don't have that information. wait until the coroner is finished or you don't have to wait until the reports are out,

do you, to change the classification of the investigation? >> we have a very comprehensive and far reaching investigation which has been widely reported in the media that we're looking at. his prescription drug history, the doctors that he's dealt with over the years. we have cooperation of the dea and the state attorney general's office who keeps those records. so those are being looked at by our personnel. we at the time offered them with search warrants. they've seized a number of items from the residence. and those will assist in the investigation as it goes forward. >> do you have a sense of the classification of death? what needs to take place? >> that would actually be the coroner's determination. he makes the determination as to the nature of the death. >> just the cause of death to change the investigation? >> in terms of -- we move

forward in a variety of ways with our investigation which is in many respects a comprehensive set of inquiries so that no matter which way the coroner's finding will go, mr. is a multiple findings he makes, we would be in position to not have lost time. if we were waiting for that report, so not marking time waiting for the report. we're gathering based on our experience in these matters. and unfortunately los angeles we have a lot of experience with death investigations. we have very good investigators. so they'll be prepared to deal with what the findings may be. >> getting cooperation from all the doctors? >> i will speak to the intimacies of the investigation. that is in the our policy. but we are, as has been reported in the immediate yashgs speaking to and will be seeking to speak to a number of the physicians that attended mr. jackson over the years and he is being treated. >> and finally, you know, people

think oh, the homicide investigation or doctors, there is a clear difference is there not of possible charges. just because the investigation is going one doesn't mean that some physician is going to be thrown in jail. >> i'm not even going to speak to that. we'll wait to see what the coroner comes back with. and once he comes back with his determination, we'll be able to, you know, speak in a much clearer and more open way what our course of action will be. but i'm not going to speculate at this time. we're going to wait until he comes back with the findings. he has his role and responsibility. we have our role and responsibility. but the next move really is his. >> and ted rollins is with me now joining us live who just spoke there. and, ted, give us a broader sense of what else he may have said and what else you've learned today. >> basically, what chief bratton did say is that they are assuming, as he called it, the worst case scenario which is obviously a murder or homicide with intent.

that's their assumption as they go through this investigation. because if the coroner comes back and says, yes, this is homicide. they want to have all their ducks in a row. they want to have done the investigation. so they're proceeding on that level. now the coroner comes back and says the tochl results don't prove anything. and the cause of death is accidental or natural, what have you, then all of their work, they don't use it. but they had it. that is really the mentality and the last thing he said was it is the coroner's next move. >> and, ted, there is also a report that the family may be looking at burying the body at neverland after all. what do we know about that? >> well, according to the state of california, a representative from the family, a lawyer on thursday called up to see what needed to be done to bury michael jackson at neverland. basically, it's a two-pronged process from the state's point of view. all you have to do is fill out a two-page complication and give the state $400 and basically,

you have the license to build a mini cemetery on your private land. now the hurdle could be said of sanda barbara county. if santa barbara county says they never dealt with this in their entire history. they really don't know what they're going to do if the jacksons come to them. at this point, nobody from the jackson family or any representatives have come to the county and said we would like to bury michael jackson at neverland. >> all right, ted rollins for us tonight with the very latest on that information and that exclusive interview with cleave bratton. we'll see if this turns into a criminal investigation. a connecticut couple's divorce nearly turned dead think week when a man held his ex-wife hostage. he called the reporter during the siege. she recorded everything. you're going to hear it in a minute. rjjbjbjbjbjbjbjbjb%!b'nl1m4m

this next story sun believable. it is real. a lot of it caught on tape. police say this man kidnapped his ex-wife. he held her at gun point for most of a day, holding off police by threatening to blow up the house. well, luckily she escaped and he

later set fire to the house which burned to the ground. he repeatedly called a local newspaper reporter. listen to this. >> what made you call me? >> i trust you. >> you do trust me? >> i do. absolutely. i think you're a good reporter. i think you mean well. >> karen lawrence is joining us right now. karen, first off, you had a little bit of history with this man. you did know richard shenkman casually. what on earth is going through

your mind that this is happening? >> i was panicked that he was going to kill his wife and kill himself and take anybody else out that he could possibly take out. he was crazed. >> did you based on what you knew of him because as i said, you did know him. did you think he was unstable you? were very concerned that this could go in any direction, huh? >> i'm the court reporter here. and i've been covering his nasty divorce and an arson case. and he's been growing increasingly unstable and had promised me during several other phone calls that something big was going to happen. >> richard shenkman called you for times that day. and at three of those times he actually did let you speak to his ex-wife nancy. i want to play for our viewers some of that. listen. >> i don't want to control you, nancy. you can say anything you want to say to karen.

>> then why do you have your wife there? your ex-wife? >> i don't understand you want a priest to give her her last rights if you're not going to harm her. >> she -- yeah, she had to have been terrified. what was your sense of how she was handling this situation? >> i thought it was amazing she was composed enough to string together sentences, honestly. i was so happy that he put her

on the phone so she had a voice and she had a say in what was going on as well. >> and, karen, nancy did eventually escape. explain how she escaped and what happened after that last phone call? >> okay. well, i guess they had sent a mechanical robot up to the front door and it freaked out richard and he went to go investigate noises and pulled her down into a bunker and chained her to a wall. and when he went to investigate the noise, she unscrewed it, broke loose and ran for her life. she said she was afraid he was going to come up behind her and shoot her in the back of the head. >> wow. karen, i got to give you credit for staying so calm while all this is happening and giving her time or, you know, the police time to deal with this. and the facial expressions were worthy as well. karen from "the day" in new london, connecticut, thank you very much for joining us. appreciate it. >> thanks, campbell. coming up in tonight's "money & main street report",

you'll see how a little ingenuity is giving a unique coffee shop just the right jolt.

we keep looking for signs that we're getting out of this recession. new numbers show that fewer people are being laid off. we're also finding some inspiring stories. moernz saving jobs by thinking outside the box nor this case, outside the coffee cup. senior correspondental earn chertoff has this morning's "money & main street." >> it all started with a left wing radical activist who wanted to create what he called the anti-starbucks, a communal cafe, booksto bookstore, debate parlor and performance space. ♪ >> reporter: box top he called it, short for voice of the people. >> my vision was to create a place that people could come together and voice their opinions and share and cross pollen ate. so you know, across the political spectrum. >> reporter: in one of the most

diverse neighborhoods in the country, vox pop was becoming the people's cafe. but just as the recession was taking hold, he opened a second location in manhattan. >> the recession bit me in the butt. i literally saw the economy grinding down to a halt in front of me. >> reporter: enter debbie ryan, a friend of a friend with a smaterring of nan profit business experience. debbie had the manhattan cafe closed. yet vox pop was $190,000 in debt behind on rent, taxes, and fines for health code violations. >> the soundest business decision would have been throw-in the towel, file bankruptcy, call it quits. >> reporter: instead of a bailout, vox pop found the rescue in a buy in, a community buy in. the cafe sold stock to its customers for $50 a share and in ten days raised $64,000. nearly 200 people invested to

keep their cafe open. families like the mitchells who put in more than $1,000. >> what this place provided is unique to the neighborhood. >> considered a good investment for my neighborhood, for me, for my kids, for my coffee addiction. >> reporter: share holders are a long way from seeing a profit. vox pop is still paying off debt. but investors say they could be happier because communal capitalism has allowed them to keep the voice of the people alive. allen chertoff, cnn, brooklyn, new york. >> and there are plenty of other businesses finding unique ways to buck the recession. for example, check out cnn.com/moneyandmainstreet. "larry king live" is next. -- captions by vitac -- www.vitac.com you know, it makes me feel pretty good. we're offering a solution for a customer

that maybe has to choose between paying their credit card or putting food on the table and that's why they call us. our main objective is to reach out to the customers that are falling behind on their payments. a lot of customers are proud and happy that bank of america actually has a solution to help them out with their cards. i listen. that's the first thing i do is listen. you know what, what happened? what put you in this situation? and everyone's situation is different. we always want to make sure that we're doing what's best for our cardholders. i'll go through some of his monthly expenses, if he has a mortgage payment, if he pays rent. and then i'll use all that information to try and see what kind of a payment he financially can handle. i want to help you. bank of america wants to help you through this difficult time. when they come to you and they say thank you, aj, for helping me with this problem, that's where we get our joy from. that's what motivates us everyday.