now. -- captions by vitac -- www.vitac.com >> larry: tonight, la toya jackson drops a bomb. she says michael was murdered. the journalist who interviewed la toya face to face will tell us all about it. how michael's sister thinks the king of pop really died. why someone wanted him dead. how does la toya know? police anita hill has been through a memorable hearing for supreme court nominee. what does she think of sonia sotomayor, next on "larry king live." we welcome to "larry king live" caroline graham, the los angeles

correspondent, west coast editor of the london mail on sunday. she did a lengthy interview with michael jackson's sister, la toya. how did you get it? >> larry, we have a relationship with la toya. spent a lot of time in the uk over the last few years. she knows my newspapers. she trusts us. i think la toya wanted to get the story out there but do it with a paper she trusted and knew would report it accurately. >> larry: where was it conducted? >> we met in the beverly hills hotel near her home. lives very close to where michael was living at the time he died. we met for 4 1/2 hours last thursday. >> larry: how was she paid? was she paid? >> larry, i wouldn't discuss any notions i had with la toya. it's confidential. i don't think it's relevant. what happened in this case, la toya came to us. wanted to get the story out there. the story was a bombshell. >> larry: in the united states, if you hear someone is paid for something, there's always a suspicion around it. >> i don't think la toya did it with suspicious motives.

i didn't know what to expect when i got into the hotel room. when i walked out four hours later was impressed. i believed her. a compelling witness. she speaks ar ditely. she's intelligent, smart and loves her brother. >> larry: the bombshell headline from the interview, la toya says michael was murdered. that's very serious. >> it stopped me in my tracks. when she said this, it was mid-way through the interview. she said i truly believe my brother was murdered. >> larry: murder or negligent manslaughter? >> said, is murder the word you want to use? do you realize what you're saying? she said, oh, yes, i know what i'm saying. >> larry: how wassed murder committed and by whom? >> who do you think's responsible? she's feeling close to the police officers investigating this. she doesn't want to name names at this stage. there are certain people she thinks have to step forward and step up to the plate and give answers. one of these is dr. conrad

murray, michael's personal physician. >> larry: wasn't accusing him? >> she was saying she thinks his behavior has been extremely suspicious. he disappeared from the hospital. she was at the hospital with the screaming children, asking to speak to michael's doctor. when she went up to him and said, what the hell happened to my brother? he mumbled something that was a bunch of nothing. next time she looks around, after she saw her brother's dead body, the doctors cleared off. >> larry: did she leave the room. >> up to this point we thought michael was in his own bedroom. he was in dr. murray's bedroom. >> larry: how does la toya know this? >> went to michael's house on the evening the day he died. spoke to people in the house who was there. one of michael's closest personal assistants, like a brother to michael, saw ming l in dr. murray's room, was there when emergency services got there. basically michael walked from his bedroom into dr. murray's room. this was the room where he

passed. >> larry: in response to la toya's comments michael was found in dr. conrad murray's room, a doctor for the spokesperson tells ac 360 says that's not true. a doctor administered cpr to michael jackson in michael jackson's room. i'm not sure where la toya is getting that. she wasn't there. dr. murray refused to comment on la toya's comment about seeing an intravenous drip in the room and canisters lining the walls. >> why doesn't dr. murray speak to the family? she told me the room was next to michael's big bedroom. a big bedroom. across the hallway was a small room. maybe dr. mur rip wasn't sleeding there. paris, michael's daughter, paris, said that was dr. murray's room and when daddy was getting his, quote, oxygen, the children were not allowed in there. >> larry: is she accusing dr. murray of murder?

>> i think she has a lot of questions she would love to ask doctor murray. >> larry: others, right? >> a conspiracy of shadowy characters around him. >> larry: giving him drugs to kill him? >> giving him drugs to control him. isolated from his family. the family tried to intervene. they knew he was in trouble. every time they tried to get lease to the house, they were prevented. joe jackson went to the front door on many occasions she told me. they went to the front gates. they wouldn't let him in. when la toya called the house she couldn't speak to her brother. this is very suspicious. >> larry: dr. murray has not specifically -- we have another statement, has not responded to la toya's description of what was their encounter the day michael died. quote, dr. conrad murray continues to fully cooperative with the los angeles police department and medical examiner's office.

well, shouldn't la toya be impressed by that? >> why wouldn't he answer whether he gave michael jackson diprivan, a drug that -- >> larry: answer to who? >> to the family and general public. there are millions of fans out there that want to know what happened to michael jackson. we've seen the footage taken at their household two days before he died. he looks like a seemingly healthy man. how can he go from that to laying on a cold slab in the mortuary within two days? >> larry: you're a great journalist. doing this a while. would would doctors want to kill a patient? any extreme, why? >> i think you have to go between intentional and unintentional. >> larry: unintentional murder? >> in california, isn't it second-degree murder? >> larry: i don't know that. >> that's what i was told. >> larry: we'll have a lawyer on. >> it will be difficult to prove first degree murder. if the intent, whether the intent was there or not, if he administered the drug that led to michael jackson's death, what would you call it?

>> larry: caroline graham, l.a. guest, west coast editor for the londen mail on sunday. want to see your comments on our show, go to cnn.com/larryking, click on blogs. typing your remarks, might make it on the air. la toya vows to protect michael's kids. that's next. the doctor diagnosed arthritis in my right knee.

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>> larry: in this dramatic printed interview, caroline graham describes la toya tells

you about accompanying the children to see the body. what was that like? >> it was amazing moment of the interview. she got very choked up. said the children were outside with the grand mother, katherine. they were hysterical, crying, screaming. paris said, i want to go see daddy. la toya went to one of the experienced nurses in the er room and said, look, is this a good idea or bad ? the lady said, no, i've been doing this a long time. allow them to see michael. it will give them closure. michael was in there. she said the body was warm. he had a towel over his face. la toya removed the towel and the children, once they saw their father, immediately became calm. they rushed over to him, held his hand, kissed him, told him how much they loved him. this is when she started -- overwhemd with emotion at this point. said it was a very touching thing. from that moment on the children were calm. >> larry: that surprise you? >> yeah.

i've never had this experience, thank goodness. they're such young children. i wouldn't expect that reaction, but she said paris on the monday before the memorial service they had an open viewing of the casket. the little girl, the boys didn't want to go, but paris said, yes, i want to see daddy again. the most poignant thing she said is paris bought a little heart necklace with a heart in two parts and put it around michael's, her daddy's writes, and put her around her neck and said i'm going to wear this the rest of my life. >> larry: did she give you indication of where burial is going to be. >> no. i asked her. she said it definitely will not be neverland. there's been speculation he'll go back to neverland. she said he hated neverland. after the trial, the second child abuse case, he felt his home had been violated. he didn't feel safe there and that she's in charge of the body and she and katherine will decide where michael goes and he's not going to go to

neverland. >> larry: might they bury him in another country? >> wherever he goes, it will give him the peace in death he never had in life. >> larry: how are the children coping now. >> she saz said the children are remarkable. kids are strong. they're with their cousins. they're strong. paris writes letters every day to her father. the oldest one, prince michael, hadn't cried since the day in the hospital. he's become the little man in the family. little blanket is doing okay. >> larry: did la toya talk about her father? >> she talked a little about him. >> larry: why is she the outside person in this? >> i think this family has been through many ups and downs. what people don't realize is when a crisis happens like this, they stick together. they are ironically in this situation they are united. whatever you think of the jackson family, i think they're all together on this. what they want is to find out who and what killed michael and want justice and if somebody's responsible they want to see

that person held accountable. >> larry: did they see autopsy results? >> there were two autopsies. the official coroner's report and autopsy ordered by the family. >> larry: there's still a toxicology report. >> la toya said the autopsy ordered by the family she has seen. not prepared to go into detail. i said, when you saw that, did anything in that change your opinion it was murder? she said, no, i still feel he was murdered. she said there were four fresh needle marks in his neck. >> larry: in his neck? >> neck. and fresh marks on his arm. >> larry: that would be a guessing as to what that is. >> she didn't lab raelaborate. she is cooperating with investigators. she doesn't want to anything. full trust as does the family in the lap. >> larry: did the family know of michael's addiction problems? >> the family knew he had a problem. i don't know that they knew the extent of it in the final weeks. her belief was in the run-up to the london concerts he was on a

cleanse, trying to cleanse his body of any kind of, you know, old substances or whatever. her belief is somebody toward the end was giving him drugs to either control him or for whatever reason, and, that, perhaps, the input of a large amount of drugs after him cleansing his system set him over the edge. >> larry: have any of the other family members been quoted about her statements? >> i know joe jackson has gone on the record to say he believes foul play. la toya is speaking for the family. talking to her mother all the time. >> larry: she is speaking for the family. back in 60 seconds with more on the death of michael jackson. murder. caroline stays with us and dr. drew and gym moret join us. having the right tools is crucial to being able to manage your diabetes properly. it's very important for me to uh check my blood sugar before i go on stage. being on when i'm feeling low can be like a rollercoaster. it does at times feel like my body is telling me to do one thing... and, my mind, my heart is telling me to do something else.

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hosted this week last week. we thank him. dr. pinsky, celebrity of "celebrity rehab" and author of "mirror effect." what do you make, jim, of la toya's charges? >> i think that, i've spoken with a close friend of the family. they've been concerned people are controlling michael jackson through medication. >> were. were. >> i don't know that i'd use the term murder. they're clearly concerned that there was, as joe jackson said, foul play. >> larry: foul play implies we're going to come in there and kill someone. that's the way i read foul play. >> i don't think murder was on anyone's mind. i don't believe this was a premeditation, malice. i believe there could have been. i think investigators are looking into whether there was recklessness, carelessness, negligence where you would or should know somebody could die. >> larry: negligent like manslaughter? >> like homicide. manslaughter, right. >> larry: what do you read into this, drew? >> i was really kind of inspired to hear la toya's interview.

i thought everything she said was spot on. she was clear. understood what she was talking about. it fit with everything i understand about this case. and it was -- >> larry: did you read it? >> i read it in quite a bit of detail. i was really -- i was inspired and really shaken to my core in terms of how accurate her sense of what was going on, in facts, seemed to be. >> larry: caroline, why do you think she really did the interview? >> she spent her life reading rubbish about her family. this is about her brother who just passed away. in the interview she went through a range of emotions. tearful, angry at times. she was grief stricken. i think she did it because she wants people to know the truth. >> i talked to this person, a friend of the family. >> larry: you're not going to name -- >> won't name them. they're close to the family. i believe she's speaking with the family's blessing. i don't think she's the only person who feels -- she signed a death certificate. >> larry: she signed it. >> it's not like she's in left

field speaking on her own. >> with my clinical eye, she's a woman who has had treatment, seems psychologically savvy and insightful. >> larry: drug treatment? >> no, no. somebody who understands psychology deeply. she uses the language and understanding the normal person doesn't have. >> larry: what about the four needle marks in the neck? >> they may have been trying to hit it, they can't remove it after death. >> larry: do you think la toya feels guilt, herself, we could have done more, could have, should have, would have? >> when something like this happens, of course, they tried an intervention. they were trying to get close to him. bear in mind, dr. drew can talk to this more. when you're an addict, you isolate. it wasn't the people around michael a micha michael isolating him. he was cutting himself off as well. >> i agree.

they choose to keep people around them, enslated. a new sense of what people -- >> larry: if this turns to s ou be true, what's the effect on michael's image? >> i think the memorial saw a major shift in how people view michael jackson. i think he was humanized the day of the memorial. saw him as a brother, son, daddy, father. i think many people feel sorry for him now. who used to vilify him. >> larry: dr. drew, he was 50 years old. what responsibility does he have in this? he's not a child. >> absolutely. >> larry: he has to be a willing -- no one ran into this house and injected him. >> that is absolutely true. this is one of the liabilities of being a celebrity. very, very rich and powerful have a tendency to seek special care. when you go to special care, you get substandard care. keep them in their condition. somebody has to have an ethical compass that allows them to enlighten enough, not keep their access to the celebrity in tact.

>> larry: she's got to be angry at people who supported this. >> she's very angry. very angry in the interview. she said people were around him that didn't have his best interests at heart. to them, he wasn't michael the brother, father, he was michael the cash machine. >> larry: do you agree that michael may have been murdered? that's the question tonight. go to cnn.com/larryking, cast your ballot. (pouring rain)

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didn't look like anybody under the influence. >> he may be on some sort of ma maintenance medication of something. whatever excessive medication he was on, he was becocoming off o. hot, cold, someone coming off medication. when you take otherwise the acustomary dose, no longer tolerant to that medication, it could be sufficient to kill you or interact with another medication. >> larry: why was the custody hearing postponed, jim. >> postponed because the parties were talking. one of the lawyers said as much. interestingly enough, one person, unifying both katherine and debbie rowe is joe jackson and his statement. debbie rowe said she might want to get a restraining order. katherine wants custody, alone. that might be enough to bring them together. >> larry: did la toya say anything about debbie? >> she was scathing about

debbie. those children do not know that debbie rowe is her biological father. they've met debbie rowe on a couple occasions. at debbie's request, they were never introduced as this is your mom. it was always this is debbie. la toya says she never comes around unless she wants money. >> larry: her attorney's office says, quote, no statement to offer at this time. what, dr. drew, is the long-term emotional effect on the children of this -- if all things are true and learn their father was an addict? >> well, more time than we have to get into her to have a dad who's an addict and a dad who's a superstar and dad who's dead. powerful things. i do know this. deepak chopra confirmed this when i met him in this room a couple weeks ago. michael was extremely careful of who he selected to take care of the kids. very clear they had excellent care takers. a relationship with a adult overtime can buffer a adult over very severe reactions.

>> larry: the claim that michael is worth more dead than alive. >> that's how she feels. >> larry: album sales? >> album sales, ticket sales. the aegi people who had the last concert. i spoke to randy phillips, on your show, 100 hours of footage. the one person making michael jackson not financially viable, michael jackson. he spent a fortune. tens of hundreds of millions of dollars. now there's no spending. just gaining. >> larry: are you shocked, that many people in london who bought concert tickets aren't trading them in to get their money back? >> they're getting a commemorative ticket. aeg is coming out just fine. they have $40 million in tickets that they don't have to give back. >> larry: will this ever go away, drew? >> i think it will be with us. those of us who are adults will remember it always. it will go away as a news story. for a fact, i think it's going to change, i hope it changes the practice of medicine for the

better. >> larry: affect other doctors who enable? >> i think there will be ethical standards. >> larry: what happened to presley's doctor who was an enabler? he lost his license. >> i believe he did. you're talking about a different time. you're also talking about a different expectation. i think that if you had run a special two months ago on the abuse of prescription drugs, five people would have watched. you can get an entire nation interested because there are millions of people affected and focused because of michael jackson. >> i agree. >> larry: what's la toya, caroline, make of all of this? what's her read on this? >> i think she's very suspicious. i feel -- she said to me that -- i think she's just -- there's many things. the main thing is she's a grieving sister. her main thing is justice for michael. he's gone. nothing's going to bring him back. the two focuses of la toya and the family are justice for michael and looking after those children. >> larry: did she say how he looked in death?

>> like he was sleeping. was he scary? did he look frightening? no, looked like he was sleeping, peaceful. nothing freakish about him. >> larry: the stories about the body emaciated, wrong? >> he was always skinny, working out or whatever. he was always a skinny guy, he wasn't anorexic. >> larry: thank you all very much. you're here in l.a. you can always come back. caroline graham, jim moret, dr. drew pinsky. your friends, tellr dad, tell your mom! never mind, they've been singing our songs since we first showed up with our pirate hats on! if you're not into fake sword fights pointy slippers and green wool tights take a tip from a knight who knows free credit report dot com, let's go! vo: offer applies with enrollment in triple advantage. you have questions. who can give you the financial advice you need? where will you find the stability and resources to keep you ahead of this rapidly evolving world? these are tough questions. that's why we brought together two of the most powerful names in the industry. introducing morgan stanley smith barney.

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>> larry: we're back. we welcome to "larry king live" mark geragos, former defense attorney for michael jackson. in new york, judge janine piro

presides over the tv court show. shares as west chester county d.a. and county judge as well. here in los angeles, judge joe brown who presides over his own tv court show. what do you make, mark, of the la toya charges? >> people keep talking about whether it's manslaughter or anything else. california has a specific, what's called implied malice, second-degree murder doctrine being used more and more for situations normally you would not think would be a traditional murder. this is clearly a case where i could see under the right circumstances that some prosecutor would bring murder charges, not intentional in the sense people always want to talk about what they think is murder, but what's called implied malice, second-degree murder. >> larry: judge peer row, what's your read? >> i think mark is right. there's an implied malice, second degree, which is really a manslaughter charge. if they can show there was diprivan or other drugs in michael's system, i think

they'll be able to show that once they do the dissection of the brain, they've got to show causation, who administered the drugs. any prosecutor will seek a involuntary manslaughter charge. it is time for doctors to recognize they cannot use their position as a medical doctor to support illegal prescription drug use. that ultimately ends up in death. >> larry: judge brown? your input. >> i'm sure somebody if they had an angle would prosecute the good doctor. >> larry: or doctors. >> or doctors. basically what they found in the home is the same thing they found in, i believe, in 2003 raid that the police did on the home place. now, i think it's going to be necessary for preservation of his image to try to go after a scapegoat just like they did when elvis presley died in memphis. the autopsy showed drug overdoses, but i think jerry

francis, dr. francis came out without even participating in the autopsy and said it was a heart attack. i anticipate that kind of -- >> you know what, with all due respect it's not about a scapegoat. it's about a doctor who is not licensed by the drug enforcement administration to administer anything more than a powerful cough medicine and who was using allegedly diprivan which is only used in operating rooms and in outpatient surgery rooms. not having the proper resuscitative equipment. this isn't about a good doctor. it's about doctor who have taken a hippocratic oath and using it for their own grief. >> part of the irony of this, at least, legally, is people keep talking about the manslaughter. if you look at the mental state in the jury instruction for manslaughter, in a lot of ways, it's more rigorous than the implied malice murder. that's why i keep suspecting that somebody, some clever prosecu

prosecutor, is going to say, you know, given the latest pronouncements of the california supreme court this is a murder case. >> larry: judge, is it a crime if you -- if i ask a doctor to give me a drug that i'm not supposed to get and he gives it to me? is that a crime? >> it can be under certain circumstances. >> larry: he's giving me diprivan, i want to go to sleep. >> what's going on here, he had triplets of prescriptions which raises red flags. back in the '80s, you'd use the dea or get the locals going out to someone when they found out they had triple prescriptions. they'd go back into this and find out and go after the user and the person that did the prescriptions. so right now, though, i'd like to point this out. i think everybody is getting a little out of hand right now. all we have is hearsay basing -- basis for some kind of allegation. >> larry: we don't know facts yet. we don't know if diprivan was in the house. >> we don't know if diprivan was

in the house, who prescribed it, whether they know who prescribed it, whether there was a prescription on it that was his. >> larry: all of these are assumptions. one of the dangers -- >> which is always the danger -- >> larry: just to be -- trying to do our best. call us a cable pundit fest? you invented it. just to be clear, dr. conrad murray's investigators told them murray was a witness and not a suspect in the investigation. our guests are sticking around. we'll see if they think criminal prosecution is likely as we continue with our cable -- stop it. we'll be right back. worst. i shoulda used... [ male announcer ] preparation h cream. burning, itching, plus maximum strength pain relief, on contact. the most complete relief, from preparation h. pain relief on contact.

>> larry: looking at michael jackson's fans in london today. very, very popular, of course, in the uk. maybe more popular in the uk than in the united states. mark geragos, judge janine piro and judge joe brown. does all this speculation harm things, mark, for the prosecution, for the defense, for everybody? >> of course, it does. there's no question that you've got people saying things -- there's absolutely no basis to know if they're true or not. they become -- they get into the ether and everybody assumes -- >> larry: judge peer row, frankly, what do we know know? what do we know? >> well, you know, the only thing we do know are things someone like la toya tells us or

joe jackson tells us or that the family tells us. or, you know, some of the leaks in law enforcement. until we get that toxicology, until that brain is analyzed by a neuropathologist, we're not going it know the cause of death. then what bill bratton will do is look into the viability of a homicide charge, causation, if it's appropriate or rule it an accidental overdose or rule it a heart attack which makes no sense if a guy is healthy and 50 years old. >> larry: judge brown, do you agree with that? all we know is we don't know. >> we need to develop patience. tabloid journalism taking over everything in this country. we need to keep it out -- >> larry: you like the british system better, none of this would be covered? >> the court act would be instituted and that would be the end of that. janine was saying, one of the things that will first be

determined is the coroner will make a determination. once the coroner makes the determination, it will go to the police. the police are working hand in hand with the department of justice, lts state department of justice. either they are the l.a. county da is already involved. they'll make a decision jointly. >> larry: how far can this go? if an employee of michael jackson's got a false prescription and filled it, are they guilty of something? >> it depends. if they were doing it to accommodate their employer, that's one thing. i'm concerned about the pharmacies. rumored one of the pharmacies is owed of $100,000 by michael jackson. you've got all these pharmacies. if they are prescribing drugs to people of different names. the bills are going to one person. the pharmacies could lose their licenses, some of the doctors could lose licenses. that's at the very low end. if there's criminal negligence or gross deviation from the standard of care, then we could see more serious charges.

i think we are now seeing a culture change where society will no longer tolerate these celebrity doctors who do anything for money. >> larry: that may be gone. if all the allegations, judge brown, about the drug abuse are shown to be fact, could that have an impact on child custody? >> i think it should. in fact, i would be disappointed with california's system if they don't appoint a guardian to protect the interest of the children. >> larry: where do the children go? >> where do they go? >> larry: if there's a guardian ad litem, what happens? >> this whole thing banded around, again, an acquiring mind type approaches which he willed his children to someone, you can't do that. they're not property. considering his own admissions out of his own mouth about being naked in bed with somebody else's children, the drugs found in the home when they raided it in 2003, allegedly, then what we are getting right here, there needs to be an investigation into terms of the psychological status of the children, who was a fit children. the whole nine yards.

>> larry: mark, you agree? >> look, my experience with these kids is -- was over a period of time. we defended successfully the child protective services investigation. my experience is that these are tremendously well-adjusted kids. especially the older two who i knew and dealt with. as long as katherine is in the mention and as long as grace was in the mix who was the long-term care giver, don't have doubts that's the right place for the kids. >> larry: you need a good judge here. >> i think you have a very good judge here. >> larry: great panel. they will be back on other nights. you can count on it. ask mark. what do you have to say about the case? your comments are next. 3

>> larry: we're back. the blog has been busier than ever since michael jackson died. here's our own, david, to tell us what you're saying about the king of pop. >> we're tracking different stories. everybody is talking about the explosive allegations from la

toya jackson about the death of her brother. toward that, we're hearing from people like camilla, responding to investigations by la toya jackson her brother, michael was murder. she agrees with la toya. there so many things about the investigation that are questionable, there's far too much not adding up, says she. we're hearing from people like travis, who says this. la toya is obviously in pain. but the responsibility for any medications he was taking lies with michael jackson first and foremost. this conversation continues on the blog, like it does. cnn.com/larryking. look for the blog link, jump into the conversation. want to tell you about a web exclusive on the blog, again, cnn.com/larryking, a guest about to join you at the desk. professor anita hill. she, of course, arose to prominence during the 1991 confirmation hearing of justice clarence thomas. she is a former yale classmate of judge sonia sotomayor.

on the blog, in advance of her appearance tonight, she wrote a web commentary in which she talks about her former yale classmate and potential new role on the supreme court. cnn.com/larryking. jump in, we look forward to hearing from you. back to you, larry. >> larry: our next guest knows something about senate confirmation hearings for supreme court nominees. anita hill. subject to controversy with one of them way back when. ou know we've adjusted a lot of the different processes we have in place such as rolling out more innovative products to really meet the needs of the customers. we actually move with the economic times. customers who maybe have lost their jobs, we're looking at waiving fees for them. we've introduced add it up. our risk free cd. it's one stop shopping for all the answers they're looking for. you just kind of have to learn to, just you know, just be there. that's how we keep moving. i switched to a complete multivitamin with more.

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you're in control of your finances. now when you talk about convenience, you measure us up to everyone else. well, you'll see we stand ahead of the curve. ac 360's coming up at the top of the hour. here's a preview of what you'll see tonight. anderson's exclusive interview in africa with president obama. watch. >> you talked about your father

on this trip. how much of your thoughts about africa are affected by his experience? the problems he faced in kenya with corruption? >> i think his story, but more broadly the story of my family in kenya, which still continues, informs how i think about this. >> okay. >> i'm reminded of the fact on the one hand you have people of extraordinary talent and energy and drive, some of who succeeded, but others who have been blocked because they find themselves in the circumstances that africans all across the continent find themselves. >> larry: what was it like for you, anderson? >> reporter: it was fascinating. we were at cape cos castle, a dungeon where hundreds of thousands, you know, more than a million africans who had been enslaved were held. many died in these dungeons. many others were then put on slave ships, sent to the new

world, sent to america. for the president it was a very emotional journey. he was there with his kids and his wife. we talked and took a tour of the castle, the dungeons, just after he took the tour with his family. we talk a lot about the personal impact on him. >> larry: we'll see it all at the top of the hour. thanks, anderson. "ac 360" 10:00 eastern, 7:00 pacific. the president will throw out the first pitch tomorrow night in st. louis at the all-star game. we now welcome coming from walter, massachusetts, where she's a professor, anita hill. accused clarence thomas of sexual harassments during his '91 supreme court confirmation hearings. he was closely, of course, confirmed for the post. was a year, by the way, behind sonia sotomayor at yale university law school. what did you make of the first day of the hearings? >> i think it was what we expected. people were sort of lining up, sort of laying out their positions. it was a -- it was pretty

predictable. but i don't think that took away at all from the fact that this is a historic day and historic event that we're witnessing. >> larry: let's take a look at a brief excerpt from the opening statement by the judge before the judiciary committee. >> in the past month, many senators have asked me about my judicial philosophy. simple. fidelity to the law. the task of a judge is not to make law, it is to apply the law. >> larry: you were a year behind her at yale law school. did you know her there? >> you know, i knew who she was. i saw her in the school. it's a fairly small law school. and i knew that she was a woman from the bronx, and she really was someone who was quite popular at the school, quite

active, and engaged. always struck me as very, very vivacious and >> larry: as a professor of law, how do you regard her as a judge? >> i have not looked at every one of her opinions, i don't think one person has, but i've looked at her summaries of them and her work. i think the body of work itself is so impressive. what i see in her work is really just what she said today. that she is -- she has great respect for precedence, the rule of law is her guiding principle and she really strives to make sure that comes through in her opinions. >> larry: do you believe -- senator lindsey graham, gop

senator from south carolina said if he said anything like her remarks about wise latinas his career would have been over. do you agree with that? >> i'm not sure what he was trying to get at. i think those comments about a wise latina have been exaggerated and exploited for, quite frankly, political purposes. i think what judge sotomayor was trying to indicate, she comes into her position as a judge as a person who brings a lot of experiences and her own perspective that derives from those experiences. she is not trying to deny any part of who she is. the law is not something that is applied by a computer. judges are human and all of those judges on the bench bring human aspects into their decision making.

>> larry: i guess that is all anyone can bring, their own background. you still are what you are, right? >> you are what you are. i think this is a good conversation for us to be having and for us to think about what president obama meant when he used the term empathy, what it means for a judge to have empathy. i think the human characteristic of empathy is something that individuals develop between the ages of 1 and 2. every judge has it. the question is how is it aappli aapplied, are you aware of it. she shows she is aware of it but, in fact, it doesn't hinder her from applying the rule of law. >> larry: back with more anita hill after this. where will you find the stability and resources to keep you ahead of this rapidly evolving world?

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>> larry: here is another reminder about professor hill's web exclusive. we thank her for submitting it to us. by the way, judge sotomayor, did people know about her. was she talked about in legal circles as a possible appointee? >> for some time i think she has been discussed. i think one of the reasons she was discussed is she was appointed by judge -- excuse me, president bush, the first president bush and the second appointment to the court of appeals she was appointed by president clinton. i think people believe that would give her broad bipartisan

support. so she was considered to be one of those individuals at the top of the list of individuals who might be considered for the supreme court. >> larry: what -- go ahead, i'm sorry. >> i don't think we should underestimate the fact that we have an opportunity to appoint another woman to the supreme court. both sandra day o'connor and justice ruth bader ginsburg have indicated that they are very happy that another woman may be coming on to the court. they think it is important that we have women represented, well represented. i think that is something the country should aspire to. >> larry: what, anita, has been the lasting effect on you and your approach to the law involved in the hearings with

judge thomas? >> one of the things that has happened to me since that hearing is my appreciation for the fact that we really need to connect people with the law. for people to really understand and appreciate that the decisions made by the supreme court impact their lives whether or not they ever see themselves as plaintiffs. another thing that has been brought out at least as i read the letters i've gotten since the hearing is that we need to do a better job as lawyers and law professors and judges of helping people to understand what their rights are. there were so many people who have written me who said they didn't know they had a right not to be sexually harassed on the job. i think that is a failing of our legal system. >> larry: does the incident still remain with you? >> it still remains with me.

i work to try to make sense of it. i have worked to try to make it a positive. you know, it was not a positive experience by any stretch of the imagination. i'm not sure we can get involved in these issues but we can learn from the hearings that occurred in 1991 and this one as well. >> larry: will the judge be confirmed? >> i believe she will. i think she certainly has enough democratic votes to be confirmed. i would like for there to be more bipartisan support of this nomination. i think it sends a strong message not only to sonia sotomayor as she takes her position on the bench, but i think it sends a message to women throughout the country, people of color, through all of

america that this really is the land of opportunity that it promises to be and if you work hard and achieve in your life that you can be rewadded by this kind of position. she is well deserving of it. we will see -- i don't think there is going to be that meltdown someone suggested would have to happen in order for her to be defeated. i think she is going to really shine in the next few days. >> larry: finally and quickly, how are you doing? >> i'm great. i'm great. i work hard at being great but i'm doing very well. i love teaching. it's a great time. >> larry: you're an incredible part of american history. thank you, anita, good seeing you. >> thank you, larry. >> larry: anita hill, professor of law at brandeis university.