the la time there was a major health reform effort they explicitly went after the clintons, said we are not going to get this done. that went down. and the -- at least the history the way it is viewed here in washington is that is what helped defeat democrats. it was a pure political play. a show of strength by the republicans that helped them regain the house. >> well, there are some parallels. back in '93/'94, there were republicans like bob dole prepa prepared to sign a bipartisan solution, that fell apart over time. and republicans gathered in opposition and it did help defeat the health care effort at that time. the danger for president obama now is that there's another parallel. that is that the clinton plan started out as very popular, but over time support for it crumbled in the public. the danger for the president now is support is beginning to crumble for it. the overall effort -- >> sanjay, every time there is a big initiative in washington that costs money they talk about going after waste, fraud and abuse.

the health care debate is no different. they say there is wasteful spending in the system. if you help squeeze is out you help pay for the reform simply by doing that. is that true? >> this is where medicine gets more into the art part than the science part of it. the answer is yes. there is inefficiencies in the system. i'm a doctor. i was in the operating room today. there's inefficiencies in most hospitals. why those inefficiencies occur and what you can do about it is more complicated. for example, a lot of tests are ordered, many of which are not necessary. why are the tests being ordered? is it because of doctors lining their coffers with more money or because of defensive medicine? ask different groups you will get different answers. this idea of what's known as comparative effectiveness -- when you do a procedure is it going lead to a better, longer life for the patient? despite how technologically sophisticated we are, jaurngs sometimes it's hard to answer that question. because we do this test or a certain procedure, does it make a difference?

remarkably we don't know the answer to that. answering some of those questions could make us a more efficient system, john. >> helping us dig deeper, thank you both. >> thank you. as always there is a lot more online at "ac 360" including a link for an organization arranging free health care for needy americans who don't have insurance. while you are there, let us know what you think. you will also see an explanation for this. odd allergic reaction. live chat underway right now. dr. gupta back with a man whose paper cut turned into a life threatening condition. did he get lousy treatment because of the color of his skin? sanjay asks questions and got eye-opening answers. >> the surprising tie between murder victim byrd billings and one of his alleged killers. why money changed hands between the two. 40 years later, the giant leap for mankind as it happened and many people have never seen it before.

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new developments tonight in the murder of the florida couple who adopted 13 children. authorities recovered a briefcase taken from the home of melanie and byrd billings. they believe the alleged master mind behind the attack knew mr. billings. there are reports that the police may be looking at another motive other than robbery. as the new details emerge a daughter of the victims can't understand why her parents were killed. >> there shouldn't be anybody in the world who has that kind of

hate to do something to anybody. i don't believe that anybody would deserve what's happened. they're wonderful people and i can't imagine somebody having that magnitude of hate in their life. >> escambia county sheriff joins us. from pensacola. sheriff, you believe a second motive, other than robbery. you even raised the possibility today this could have been a contract hit. explain. >> no, sir. that was not a possibility that i raised. what i stated when asked that question is this investigation continues and we are not taking any motive, if you will, off the table. this investigation will lead where it leads. that was, i believe, came out in one of the local papers. one of our local reporters stated he had information and informants that had informed him of that. that's not something that was out of the escambia county sheriff's office.

>> you say you will take the investigation where it leads you. you can't rule that out? >> that is a new statement. the investigation continues. we have new individuals that we're interviewing. we, again, have three persons of interest we're still interviews. so it, you know, again, for me to speculate that it will go in that direction would be purely that, speculation. as we get deeper into this investigation it gets more strange, sadly, and we seem to be coming up with as many questions has we have answers. >> we found out in court documents released today mr. billings gave financial support to leonard patrick gonzalez jr. for the opening of a martial arts studio. do you know how far back that relationship goes? does that financial relationship help you with your investigation? >> we understand that was within a year, i believe. i have not read those documents. my staff briefed me today. they are currently working with the state attorney's office to get documents and evidence

together in preparation for the grand jury. to the best of my recollection, that was within a year ago he helped finance the opening of a martial arts school for mr. gonzalez jr. >> is it a possibility that mr. gonzalez had a debt he was unwilling or unable to pay and perhaps the murder was related to that? >> we have yet to determine that. again, as i've stated to many people many times we are not investigating the billings family. we are investigating the subjects we currently have incarcerated. the investigation may, in fact lead to that. we will be asking those questions. was the death he made ever satisfied? our focus is on mr. gonzalez, not on the byrd family. >> gonzalez's wife tabby reached out to investigators today. you interviewed her today. anything valuable gained from that conversation? >> as i understand the interview went very well with mrs. gonzalez. our investigators wanted to speak with her about timelines and clear up a few areas. she did it voluntarily.

i understand the interview went very well and to the best of my knowledge she is back with her children tonight. >> you mentioned your focus is not the billings family, sir. the associated press reported mr. billings had questionable moments in the past, owning a strip club, two years probation for an adoption scam. is there anyone from his past coming into your investigation? >> that's a pretty broad swath you just cut there about people that have come into this past. we will most assuredly be looking at business partners mr. billings had and coordinate some of these efforts with the billings family to verify those facts and if there was any confrontations with prior business owners. again, we're developing this case as we go along. just like with the allegations that were released by one of our local papers, we don't take anything off the table. as i try to remind folks, i'm not about speculation. we are about facts and fact-based. that's where our investigation has to go. while it's good to have

roundtable discussions and everybody more of less postulate their theory on why the billings family met such a horrible demise, that's not something i can involve myself in. >> i understand that. thank you for your time and patience tonight, sir. take care. >> you're welcome, sir. a fire, a rescue and three people alive because of it including two young children. hear how heroes are made. joe jackson said his son was the victim of foul play. he named names. what do the names have to do about it and what do the facts say? randi kaye is back with an update.

most people would agree our country's health care system is broken. but is it racist? "360" m.d. sanjay gupta investigates allegations that hospitals treat black and white patients differently. we're keeping them honest, coming up. randi kaye joins us with the

"360" bulletin. the top cop tracking the $750 billion t.a.r.p. program is concerned federal officials at the treasury department are ignoring his proposals for preventing tax dollars for being wasted or pilfered. neil barofsky listed concerns in a 260-page report released today. he will be here tonight in an exclusive "360" interview. how suspected terrorists at guantanamo bay should be prosecuted. a little more time, it turns out, to finish its work. the department of justice extended the deadline to six months. the lone surviving gunman in the mumbai attacks pleaded guilty in what led 166 people. the boost to india's claim that terrorist groups in pakistan were behind the attack. black scholar henry lewis gates jr. is accusing cambridge police of racism after he was arrested trying to get into his locked home near harvard university. police say they were called to

the home thursday afternoon after a woman reported seeing a man try to pry open the front door. according to the police report, gates refused to identify himself, called the officer racist and said, quote, this is what happens to black men in america. gates' colleagues says he's the victim of racial profiling. professor gates is part of our "black in america" special report. that is wednesday and thursday night. you do not want to miss that. >> there's a baby in there! >> a dramatic rescue in milwaukee. a mother and her two young children pulled from their burning suv. the woman and her 2-year-old daughter were saved first. her 4-year-old son was trapped inside and rescued by two off-duty firefighters who were also brothers. amazing rescue there, john. >> wow. that is amazing. remarkable. remarkable. thank you, randi. next on "360," health care and race in america. are african-american patients getting the same care as white

patients? dr. sanjay gupta investigates. later, first the conviction and now the public apology. chris brown says he is sorry for assaulting his ex-girlfriend rihanna. the video ahead.

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by earning your degree online... at walden university. where advanced degrees advance the quality of life. as president obama pushes to overhaul america's health care system, some americans say it's not just about getting the right care. they say it is racism. there have been lawsuits that hospitals do not treat white and african-american patients the same. the allegations are, of course, disturbing. are they true? keeping them honest. dr. sanjay gupta went looking for answers. >> reporter: the reverend gary

spears, the organist at this church in the northwest bronx. cosmopolitan ame. a few years ago something happened to him, something he couldn't explain. he was scared. >> i received a paper cut and it became very badly infected. so over a period of months lost over 80 pounds, became nauseated at the sight of food, lost your energy, urinating every 20 minutes and had a paper cut that turned into a full-fledged infection. and they said? >> change the gauze, take the antibiotic, you will be fine. >> reporter: spiers went to the emergency room, not once, but twice. both times he was sent to an outpatient clinic run by the hospital. he never got a diagnosis or a single test. as we'll tell you in a moment, what happened to gary spiers should never happen to anyone.

new york is famous for its hospitals. sheikhs, kings, the rich and famous come here in search for the best medical care. many people in the poorest neighborhoods say their experience is different. >> you literally have two separate systems of health care. operating within the same hospital. patients with medicaid are sent to the hospital clinics for their specialty care. privately insured patients are sent to faculty practices. >> reporter: the quality of care in the two settings is not equal. she is lead attorney for a grassroots group, bronx health reach. in a legal complaint filed last year with the state of new york they accused three large new york hospitals, presbyterian, mt. sinai, of discrimination based on insurance status and race. the complaint targets clinics for diabetes and heart disease. illnesses that have an impact on african-americans. the hospital clinics for patients on medicaid or with no

insurance are overcrowded and second rate. >> when you look at the demographics of the medicaid population in new york city and new york state, when you do the separation based on insurance you are segregating people based on race. >> reporter: is that fair? is insurance a good indicator of race? here's a number that caught my eye. in the bronx, there are 19 times as many african-americans and latinos on medicaid as compared to whites. the new york attorney general's office opened an investigation but won't tell us where it stands. the hospitals named in the kplants all referred us to the greater new york hospital association. they said in a written statement the outpatient clinics offer care for the poor, quote, where it otherwise would not exist. this doctor runs a large practice in the bronx. he says health varies widely by race. >> if a black baby and a white

baby were born on the same day the black baby would live eight years less than the white baby. >> reporter: the clinic system he says, not good enough. >> what you end up with is people getting completely different types of care. you end up with one some of people with experienced doctors and another system where people are treated by rotated trainees. one system with good communication back to primary care doctors, and another system with no communication back to primary care doctors. >> reporter: the church organist gary spiers is not part of the complaint. he was feeling lost with a terrible illness ravaging his hand and his whole body. for months you had been searching for an answer. he finally gave it to you. what did you think? >> i was amazed. >> reporter: were you angry? >> i was shocked. >> next, part two of sanjay's investigation. what illness plagued reverend

spier and why it went undiscovered for so long. joe jackson making shocking allegations. have key antioxidants and other nutrients that help protect the health of your heart, eyes and bones. age-adjusted centrum silver. and now get centrum silver in a new smaller tablet formula. and i'm joni. we've been best friends since we were two. we've always been alike. we even both have osteoporosis. but we're active. especially when we vacation. so when i heard about reclast, the only once-a-year iv osteoporosis treatment, i called joni. my doctor said reclast helps restrengthen our bones to help make them resistant to fracture. and reclast is approved to help protect from fracture in more places: hip, spine, even other bones.

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for millions of americans being denied good medical care because of the color of their skin? claims of discrimination in the doctor's office and whether the allegations are founded or false. we're keeping them honest. once again, here's dr. sanjay gupta. >> reporter: gary spiers was confused and afraid. a festering infection in his hand. chills, sweats, massive weight loss. his hand simply wouldn't heal. to the doctors he was sent to at outpatient clinics it was a mystery. not to dr. kilman. he ran into gary at the office where he worked. he knew the diagnose instantly. gary spears had a severe case of untreated diabetes and a simple blood test confirmed it. >> he immediately began to run tests and told me for the first time i was a diabetic and the

reason why my body was not healing was because i was a diabetic and had to get my glucose numbers under control. >> reporter: spears had medical insurance and thought he had good care. he wondered why his illness had gone untreated for so long. >> i believe now, after, you know, many years after this happening, that it had to be because of my color. the color of my skin. >> reporter: because you are black? >> yes. they did not take that extra step to give me the medical care that i deserve and was entitled to as a human being. >> reporter: dr. neil calman says it is a pattern not just in new york. >> it's been absolutely proven through studies that a black man and a white man going to the hospital with exactly the same complaint will be treated differently. that has been shown through study after study. >> reporter: in one of those

studies cardiologists were shown tapes of people complaining about identical symptoms and the same symptoms. doctors were more likely to order additional tests for the white patients. no question the difference between medical care and health is very different between blacks and whites. the real question is, why? i'll tell you, it's complicated. insurance issues, economic differences, the physical environment. but if you scratch just below the surface you find race is on a lot of people's minds. i sat down with gary spears and two others who wanted to tell me about their experience with outpatient hospital-run clinics, long wait times, they said. no regular doctor. there was something more, something personal. how many of you believe the health care system the way it is now is racist? >> it's stunning to hear that. i think you think about people waiting longer in clinics or

seeing different doctors each time. to say that it's racist is a pretty remarkable thing. >> i'm amazed when i ask my congregation and groups we have how many of you felt that you were not treated correctly and hands go up. >> reporter: because of the color of their skin? >> yeah. >> reporter: the reverend robert foley is the pastor here at cosmopolitan church. he's an outspoken voice on health issues. at first he didn't want to talk about race. his goal, equal better care for everyone, especially the poor and uninsured. you can't ignore race. it turns out he as a story, too. >> i had an experience with my late wife. >> reporter: his wife had a pain in her side. her doctors played it down until it was too late. ovarian cancer and just 18 months to live. >> that always bewildered me, you know? how could this happen and why did it happen?

when you have this color of skin and you run into situations that are inexplicable to you, that don't seem to be reasonable, it makes you wonder what's generating this? it does. >> reporter: gary spears is back at the church organ. he was in that similar situation. we now know what he thinks about it. he suffered too much and too long just because he is black. dr. sanjay gupta, cnn, new york. this week, a new chapter. "black in america ii," the struggle, the solutions and new challenges. watch this groundbreaking special wednesday and thursday night. tomorrow on "360," cop killer or innocent man? troy davis is on death row. 20 years later key prosecution witnesses have recanted their testimony sparking a battle between the victim's widow and inmate's sister. here is a preview.

>> this case for me is about truth and fairness. yes, we want to find what happened to officer mcphail not for my family to save my brother but his family because i believe the right person is not behind bars. >> troy made a choice and not only destroyed my own family's life but destroyed his own family's life. he knew what he was doing and chose wrongly. >> is the right or wrong man behind bars? don't miss gary's report on "360." up next, joe jackson speaks to cnn and talks about foul play in his son's death. randi kaye joins us with that and more, much more. later, chris brown asking for forgiveness. his on-camera apology for attacking rihanna. hahahahahahaha

in an explosive interview, michael jackson's father told larry king tonight he believes foul play led to his son's death. he was being controlled by the promoters of his london concerts. hear joe jackson in his own words in a moment. the latest from the investigation, randi kaye joins us now. the autopsy, toxicology results not made public yet. but there is plenty talking about possible criminal charges. what's going on? >> this has been going on for weeks, whether or not somebody would be charged in this case. possibly criminal charges. "the l.a. times" quoting a senior law enforcement official is reporting michael jackson's death will likely not result in murder charges against any of his former doctors. we have confirmed independently, investigators are working their way down a list of jackson's doctors trying to figure out who prescribed what, when and whether or not any of these drugs were prescribed under false names. they want to know if any of these drugs may have contributed to his death. i spoke to the d.a.'s office again today asking about murder charges or criminal charges and

was told, quote, it is all speculation. i was told the case has not been presented to the district attorney to consider charges and there is no telling when that might happen. all of this, of course, comes in the wake of la toya jacksons, michael jackson's sister, telling a london newspaper her brother was, quote, murdered and the singer's father suggesting there was foul play here. the problem with charges in a case like this is it seems jackson was getting so many different drugs from so many different doctors it may be hard to prosecute because one doctor may not have known jackson was doctor shopping which sources told us he was. doctors may not have known what else he was taking. the bottom line here, deputy coroner ed winter said they are not investigating doctors. they are investigating a death. very important clarification. >> let's add tito jackson to the conversation. what about the comments he made to a london tabloid about jackson's doctor? >> we are talking about his

personal physician, dr. conrad murray, who has said he tried to give the singer cpr after he stopped breathing. he was at the house that day. we have confirmed dr. murray has been interviewed twice by investigators. his car was seized and then returned. his lawyer says he is not considered a suspect, but a witness. "the sun" newspaper in london said it interviewed tito jackson, michael jackson's older brother and the paper said tito said, quote, my opinion is he panicked when my brother didn't wake up. i think the doctor probably figured there would be trouble. he tried to revive michael. if he had immediately called for help, he would definitely still be alive. strong statement. we called dr. murray's office and were told they do not want to speak out against the jackson family right now considering their loss. a spokeswoman for dr. murray's lawyer said, quote, we're going to continue to help investigators come up with a solution as to what killed

michael jackson. finally, wanted to get back to that back and forth between joe jackson and his friend leonard rowe which you saw on larry king tonight. they told larry king the promoter for what would have been jackson's final tour forced him into a grueling schedule and would not back down. we were digging to get to the bottom of this. aeg told me two weeks ago jackson agreed to 31 shows and agreed to 50 shows because he quote, needed the money. now, tonight, we got a statement from aeg and it reads in part, whether michael jackson would be doing one show or 50, the rehearsal preparation and schedule would have been exactly the same. he always had the option to change his schedule or miss the rehearsal and did, indeed, decide to miss certain days he had previously committed to. the show's schedule was based on his schedule. that is coming from aeg tonight. leonard rowe told me more than a

week ago michael jackson didn't want to do that many shows, didn't want to work that hard. clearly the two sides still don't see eye to eye on this. >> clearly they don't. you can understand the family's grief. one gets the impression those investigating this would wish the family would not speak out so much. now the allegations from joe jackson. he told larry king tonight his son's death was no accident and blaming everyone for michael jackson's personal doctor to the company producing those planned london concerts. here's joe jackson in his own words. >> larry: how did you learn of michael's passing? >> well, i learned that by some of the fans, you know, they called me and they told me that the ambulance was leaving michael's house, looked like it was headed toward the hospital. >> larry: how are you doing? it's four weeks later. is it any easier in. >> well, you know, i took it very hard but, you know, i'm sort of a tough person, myself. but i took it very hard but i

didn't let nobody know about it. yes. >> larry: did you get a chance to say good-bye? >> yes, i said good-bye to him when he was up -- well, when he was up there in front of us, you know? i said -- i'm saying good-bye to him now. what others say, that's what they say. what i'm saying is i do feel the loss of my son, michael jackson, who was an international star all over the world. >> larry: but you didn't get to see the body or say anything -- >> no, i did not. >> larry: -- to the remains. >> no, i did not. >> larry: do you wish you could have? >> i could have. i wanted to see michael -- i wanted to remember michael alive because i didn't want to see him laying up in a casket. >> larry: are you surprised, joe, that you were left out of the will? >> well, i wasn't too surprised because, you know, that's what

he willed, that's the way he wanted it. it's not going to hurt me that i was left out of the will. it happened. >> larry: i know you're denying the stories about violence. as you look at it, were there any mistakes you made? >> i didn't make no mistakes, larry. because michael -- michael was raised properly. he didn't run the streets like most of those other kids that was in his neighborhood. >> larry: why did he say you were -- >> listen, listen, listen now. you've got to understand me. don't cut me off, here, larry. michael claimed he had a -- michael had his own brothers and sisters to play with. most of those kids that was michael's age during that time they are not living now. >> larry: you never physically harmed him? >> never. never have. i raised him just like you would raise your kids. you know? but harm michael for what?

that is my son. i loved him. i still love him. >> with more on the investigation into michael jackson's death and the legal fight for his children we are cnn legal analyst lisa bloom. despite what we heard from joe jackson saying he believes this is a case of, quote, foul play. randi just reported the police say there's nothing to suggest murder right now. homicide is different from murder. still in the cards maybe? >> absolutely. you have to listen to that statement very carefully. murder is the intentional premeditated killing of another human being. i don't think anyone is suggesting someone intentionally took michael jackson's life. the question is was there a negligent homicide, by, for example, a doctor who may have administered a medication knowing it could cause serious bodily injury or death but did it because michael jackson asked? more likely what we might see if there is a criminal charge is what we saw in the anna nicole case, giving medication to a

known addict, allowing a false name to be put on a prescription. those are much lower-level charges that could be lobbied against some of these doctors. >> as you hear these potential charges tossed around in speculation, nothing to suggest the homicide right now. what is the general track record for how long these cases play out? should we know the answer whether there will be such a charge, shortly? can these drag on for months or perhaps a year or more? >> once we get the toxicology results we're going to know what was in michael jackson's system. that's going to drive the criminal investigation. in fact, law enforcement may already know the answer to that. just that we in the public don't know. if propofol is found in michael jackson's system, that is a medication that is supposed to be administered only by an anesthesiologist. that is something michael jackson could not have administered to himself. michael jackson was an adult. he was well represented by attorneys, agents, publicists,

it is an arm's length agreement. michael jackson was an adult, well-represented by attorneys, agents, publicists, everything possible available to him. an arm's length agreement. if he entered into an agreement that was too much for him, he could have changed it. i don't see civil or criminal charges against the concert promoter. >> other big story, the custody hears was delayed again. there are reports janet jackson and her sister rebbi are interested in raising michael's children. what do you make of this? >> as an attorney, when a hearing is put off twice, that tells me one thing. settlement negotiations are in the works and are highly likely. neither side wants a custody fight here. most of us think is probably a good thing if this could be resolved. i would expect behind the scenes debbie rowe and her attorney is getting together with michael jackson's family and their attorneys and trying to put this thing to rest and avoid an ugly custody battle. >> lisa bloom, thanks.

you take care. up next, breaking news on california's budget mess. $26 billion worth. singer chris brown breaks his silence. his emotional apology to rihanna and his fans. we'll show you neil armstrong's giant leap for mankind exactly 40 years after it happened. welcome to the now network. currently, thousands of people are enjoying the new palm pre with its revolutionary web os. they're running multiple live applications at the same time. - ( thunder and rain ) - 3 million are using the simply everything plan. each is saving $1200 - over an at&t iphone plan. - ( cash register dings ) together that's over $3 billion. - enough to open a dunkin' donuts in space. - ( walkie-talkie sounds ) from america's most dependable 3g network. bringing you the first and only wireless 4g network. get the palm pre from sprint. only on the now network. deaf, hard of hearing and people with speech disabilities access www.sprintrelay.com.

40 years ago tonight neil armstrong took one giant leap for mankind and kept walking. see his historic moonwalk 40 years ago, almost exactly to the minute if i stop talking in time. our "shot" of the day. randi kaye is back with our "360" bulletin. breaking news out of california. governor schwarzenegger and top state lawmakers reach an agreement on closing the state's $26 billion budget shortfall. the governor's spokesman saying it needs to be put on paper and to a vote but a deal is in place. chris brown is publicly apologizing for the beating of rihanna. brown speaks to fans directly in a two-minute video released today on his website. >> i thought it was time you heard directly from me that i am sorry. i have tried to live my life in a way that can make those around me proud of me and until

recently i think i was doing a pretty good job. i wish i had a chance to live those few moments again but unfortunately i can't. i cannot go into what happened and most importantly i'm not going to sit here and make excuses. i take great pride in exercising self-control. what i did was inexcusable. i am sad and ashamed of what i have done. my mother and my spiritual teachers have taught me way better than that. i have told rihanna countless times and i'm telling you today i am truly, truly sorry and i wasn't able to handle the situation both differently and better. michael vick is a free man. vick's federal sentence for dog fighting ended today. he no longer has to wear an electronic monitor and can step up his efforts to resume his pro football career. the beastie boys have canceled all canceled con serts

while one of the group's members battles cancer. adam youk had has a cancerous tumor in a sal have toir gland. and "american idol" fans may see a change next year. paula abdul's manager says it does not appear she will return to the show. she has not received a contract proposal from the producers. fox says the network won't comment. her fans are flooding twitter with messages of support. ryan seaquest who signed a $45 million deal twittered he can't imagine doing the show without her. such drama at "idol." >> do you want to be a judge? >> no. i'm very busy in this hour. >> and we wouldn't let you go. >> we wouldn't -- a man who walked on the moon 40 years ago. minutes away from when neil armstrong took that step. relive the moment on our shot of the day. at the top of the hour, president obama's health care battle and what it means for your family.

for "the shot" that one small step and giant leap that happened 40 years ago tonight at 10:56 p.m. eastern on july 20th, 1969. apollo 11 astronaut neil armstrong set foot on the moon. at that moment the entire world witnessed one of the greatest achievements of all time. take a peek. >> the eagle has landed.