jeanne moos, cnn. ♪ you got to do what you got to do ♪ >> reporter: new york. >> that's it. tomorrow david axlerod, lindsay graham, rudy giuliani among others in "the situation room." let's go to lou in new york. >> thank, wolf. good evening, everybody. president obama trying to silence his critics and opponents of his controversial health care plan. the president declares the time for talk is through. we'll have the very latest on poll numbers and rising opposition to health care. opponents of the president's health care proposals refusing to be intimidated. polls show the president losing support dramatically. we'll examine this increasingly nasty battle in our faceoff debate here tonight. a rising number of gun owners across the country say the president is threatening their second amendment rights. they're rushing out to gun shops to buy ammunition. we'll have a special report on what is now a critical nationwide shortage of

ammunition. we begin tonight with the president's last ditch efforts to sell his health care plan. president obama made another public statement trying to convince skeptical lawmakers to pass proposals before the august recess, his statement coming a day before his prime time news conference, which will be tomorrow evening, when health care is likely to be the very top issue. president obama's patience on the issue is running out. so is much of the publics. in a conference call last night the president said the time for talk is through. dan lothian has the report from the white house. >> reporter: as the clock ticks on health care reform, president obama again hit the rewind button and played back his talking point. a shot at his critics. >> these opponents of reform would rather score political points than offer relief to american who is have seen premiums double. >> reporter: a case for reform. >> that will bring down long term costs, expand coverage, and

provide more choice. >> reporter: and powerful endorsements. >> the american nurses association and the american medical association have announced their support for reform. >> reporter: little has changed in the president's message since returning from his overseas trip. >> the status quo on health care is the status quo. >> i will not defend the status quo! >> just about every day since july 13th mr. obama has made public remarks on health care reform. but are his comments helping to move the ball any closer to the goal line? >> very little indication that all of the rhetoric is moving things positively in his direction. >> reporter: if mr. obama is paying any attention to the polls the latest one from usa today shows he's losing public support. the president's approval on health care reform has dropped below 50%. >> i think what's driving it is partly that people are seeing all sorts of plans being presented. they all seem to have high price tack tags, even sticker shock.

>> reporter: the president expects results. >> this is just part of the process. we're going to come back here after the august break and still have work to do on health care. >> reporter: david gurgen says the white house in a difficult position if they continue to push the deadline some american people might think they're trying to ram it through. on the other hand, if they wait, everything could fall apart. dan lothian, cnn, the white house. >> house majority leaders denny hoyer acknowledged democrats are struggling trying to reach an agreement on the health care proposals. he hopes they don't have to stay in session after the official start of their august recess. he didn't rule it out. democrats today canceled their mark up session on the bill. they ended up at the white house, meeting with the president who was lobbying them to move ahead with the work that's now obviously being delayed. democrats on capitol hill continue their efforts to reach

a deal. they're trying desperately to neat that deadline. there are so many major differences on how to pay for the plan, the possibility of a public option to compete with private insurance plans, a host of other issues. candy crowley has our report from washington. >> reporter: behind closed doors senate moderates, republicans and democrats are struggling to find a health care program. a president looking for reinforcement, complaining that unnamed critics are trying to kill his efforts. >> these opponents of reform would rather score political points than offer relief to americans who have seen premiums double and costs grow three times faster than wages. >> reporter: and a republican leader trying to stand firm. >> this is not about winning or losing. this is about getting it right. and we saw with the stimulus,

the effort to rush and spend, what can happen. >> reporter: differences over the role of the federal government and the costs of reform do not split evenly along party lines. conservative democrats have some of the same objections as the republican colleagues, too pricey, too fast. but there's nothing like partisan ship to rev up the faithful to the president and friends are framing republicans as tools of big business. >> republicans aren't interested in working with democrats to fix this problem. that's clear. they want to maintain the status quo and keeping the insurance industry in charge of delivery. >> reporter: republicans are accusing democrats of trying to ram through a bad bill for victory's sake. >> mr. president, it's time to scrap this bill. let's start over in a bipartisan way. i'm encouraged that will are members on my side of the aisle working with democrats, trying to find a way forward. >> reporter: the partisan edge to the health care debate is

growing noticeably sharper. honed by the high stakes and a public unconvinced that congress or the president is on the right track. many members of congress are uncertain. how democrats leader denny hoyer told reporters it's not just the blue dog that is conservative democrats. it's progressives and everybody in between that has concerns. tomorrow the president has his news conference. thursday he goes to the cleveland clinic to talk health care. lou? >> and today a press conference in the rose garden. called it 12:15. he's 45 minutes late. and by the account of everyone i've talked with had nothing new within those comments on health care. what is going on here? >> i'll tell you, this are people on capitol hill who i've talked to who have noticed that very thing. they say, listen, he's saying the same things over and over again. that's fine. it's a sales pitch. but we need to know where he stands on some of the specifics. because the president, as you know, as he did with the

stimulus bill, has said, here's the broad parameters and thrown it to congress. what you get are competing plans. none of which are acceptable to somebody up on capitol hill. so they truly are at least some of them on capitol hill looking for him to come out and say i want this. i want this. i want this. he likes to go in later in the debate. >> well, it is late in this debate. particularly for a president who is insisting that the talk is over. many people would say the talk hasn't begun. there have been no broad public hearings, no great debate about this. we have still no reliable estimate about cost. the numbers -- you know, here is -- at a billion dollars a page here. here is what we're looking at. and no way to pay for it because this president said we're out of money. he said everything would be budget neutral as of friday. as of today we're hearing from budget chiefs that they didn't include the cost of doctors fees

for crying out loud. >> one thing that's happening that underscores the point. you heard mitch mcconnell, the republican leader talk about it. now some people are looking at the economy going what the heck has happened here? we poured $800 billion into it. has it really worked? we're also seeing with the t.a.r.p. program that we're not sure what the banks are doing with that money yet again. so congress, not just the republicans, but other democrats on capitol hill are saying wait a second. let's really look at how we're going to spend this money. much less where we're going to get this money. >> as the president himself noted this government doesn't have any more money. and already talking about tax hikes. at a time when as of yesterday a report that the bailout is going to cost an estimated $24 trillion. these are issues that should, it seems, i think be talked about.

one would think, rather than talk before close. thank you very much. appreciate it. candy crowley. >> sure. >> president obama frequently declares that his health care plans will lead to a much more efficient health care system. however, that is not what the president said just yesterday. he accidentally said the reverse. let's listen. >> the reforms we seek would brick greater competition, choice, savings, and inefficiencies to our health care system. >> as you heard the president misspeak there. the president said his reforms will lead to inefficiencies. not efficiencies. of course, he met firefficienci. the white house didn't seem too trouble. everyone knew what he was saying. another opinion poll today showing president obama losing support among the american people on the issue of health care. the public strategy's political poll shows only 54% of americans now trust the president. compared with 66% back in march.

this is just the latest in a series of polls showing falling support for the president. one reason for his declining support may be the president's failure to meet a series of self-imposed deadlines. including one on how to treat perspective terrorists detained at guantanamo bay prison. that report was originally scheduled to be released today. it will now be published in six months. the obama administration has also delayed publication of a report on interrogation policy. the task force writing that report has been given a two month extension on its deadline. the president is delaying a white house view of the federal budget by one month. it will now come out in august. the administration has failed to release details of spending cuts that he ordered his department secretaries to deliver three months ago. the white house details will now be published, quote, in coming

days. we're following the proposed deadline with a new report on the broadcast. the president's report is now two days overdue. we'll keep you right up to date. still ahead here, more on bailout. watchdog, and the massive estimate of the government's financial rescue and recovery. >> if numbers are inflated, then it was the government itself that inflated them. not us. >> there you have it. lawmakers saying the bailout program is simply out of control. and a troubling new example of ways to fraud in the federal government. yes, this time it's in the department of defense. again. my doctor told me something i never knew. as we get older, our bodies become... less able to absorb calcium. he recommended citracal. it's a different kind of calcium. calcium citrate. with vitamin d... for unsurpassed absorption, to nourish your bones. but now they have new areas

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some people on capitol hill are absolutely angry about the government's new estimate of the soaring cost of the financial bailouts and so-called rescue programs. by one estimate, and it is the most aauthoritative. all of the programs could cost federal taxpayers $24 trillion. just about twice the size of our annual economy. the bailout watchdog who came out with the estimate was on capitol thil defending his report. he hit back quickly at his critics in the treasury department. >> if the numbers were inflated it was the government, not us. we've made clear in black and white what the number means. the number is basically the

accumulation of what the 50 separate programs are and what the total amount of financial support that the government has committed to. >> the treasury department, however, still insisting that barofsky's $24 trillion figure is inflated. as they put it. we should point out, he's the special inspector general. at the t.a.r.p. program. we've been following california's budget disaster closely and reporting to you over the past month. tonight we say only that it appears the state of california is a step closer to paying its bills with real money instead of i.o.u.s. all we can say is it appears so. they've been issuing the ious for nearly three weeks. governor schwarzenegger and state legislators say they have a deal to close that $26 billion budget gap. some are upset about proposed cuts to programs like education

and safety. others are upset because they haven't closed the deficit with reduction in spending. >> reporter: california governor arnold schwarzenegger compared the state's latest $26 billion deficit reduction deal to a hollywood movie. >> i want to thank the legislative leaders for hanging in there and negotiating all this. it was like a suspense movie. >> reporter: some are already applauding. >> i want to congratulate the governor and my fellow legislative leaders. >> but the credits have yet to role. they must a prove a plan that avoids tax increases but makes dramatic reductions in critical state services. they include $9 billion from education over two years. $1.6 billion from health care for the poor, children, and the disabled. and more than a billion dollars from prisons.

$1.3 billion would be saved by requiring state workers to take three days off without pay each month. the state also plans to divert 4 billion from cities and counties with a promise to repay half of it. los angeles county may sue. >> it's really highway robbery of local government resources. >> it stinks. it smells. it is bad public policy. >> reporter: california is one of eight states that failed to reach budget agreements. five still haven't. new york's legislature was gridlocked in a political power struggle for five weeks this summer. now another delay is threatening the finances of new york city schools. mayor michael bloomberg wants drastic action. >> the governor can call back the state legislature every single day. in albany. and he can send the state troopers to drag them back unless they're out of the state. and he should do that. >> reporter: in california parts

of the budget deal are accounting gimmicks. lawmakers agreed to shift a payday for state workers from june 30th to july 1st, pushing more than a billion dollars in salary to the next fiscal year. the plan accelerates personal and corporate tax collections. to bring money into the state treasury sooner. those provisions combined with speculative measures could mean lawmakers will need to repeat their deficit reduction performance in the not too distant future. that's unless the economy rebounds so quickly that state rebounds quicker than expected. >> any sign of improvement in revenues in california? >> absolutely not. it's just the opposite, lou. tax revenues are down 30% so far this year. that's one of the reason this is big budget hole existed. >> that big budget hole that the government and the leadership of the legislature said they

closed, it looks to me to be between $7 billion andto 10 bil. how could these people be negotiating and be surprised they would have to cut expenditures by the state government in order to meet a budget deficit? why should there be any surprise about that? >> well, i don't think there's been surprise about that. they've known all along they were going to have to cut. they've been holding the line on not raising taxes. they say they've succeeded in doing that this time. it's a matter of how deeply are we going to cut. they've made much deeper cuts in education than a lot of people expected. a lot of these gimmicks are out there. the speculative measures that we mentioned are out there. it could be that this budget deficit could grow again despite the agreement. even if it's passed by the legislature. >> an agreement that isn't yet. thank you very much from los angeles. tens of thousands of jobs in

california and other states are at risk after the senate today voted to kill the f-22 rap tor fighter jet program. the senate voted 58-40 to end production of the f-22. they will finish production at 187 of the aircraft. senator john mccain cosponsored the amendment to cut the funding for the f-22. said the military has more important priorities. >> it's going to send a signal that we're stopping business as usual and we must move forward providing the men and with the necessary means to womin the struggles we are in. especially the two wars. >> reporter: the plane's manufacturer says the program now employs 95,000 people in 24 states. 25,000 people directly. 70,000 indirectly. defense secretary gates however says many jobs will be created in the military's newest fighter

program. secretary gates says the program will create more than 80,000 jobs. the pentagon tonight facing a multimillion dollar payroll scandal. investigators found the pentagon paid money to bank accounts held by people who had died. handed out money to workers with invalid social security nurnls. lisa sylvester has the report. >> reporter: the inspector general for the department of defense found more than $15 million may have been improperly paid out to civilian accounts between 2002 and 2008. $900,000 to 134 deceased employees. more than $2 million to employees with registered birthdays that put them below the legal working age of 14. 98 employees using nonexistent social security numbers. $50 million is a small amount compared to the $148 billion in civilian wages paid over the

same period by the defense finance of accounting service. but watchdog groups like the nonprofit and nonpartisan government on oversight say the findings raise the question. does the department of defense know who is on the payroll? >> you would think they would have strong internal controls of who are they actually paying? >> according to the report in 2006 one employee had a birthpz date of april, 1998 and received maims totalling over $12,000. they decline d an interview wit cnn. but the attorney general said the pay system including a coding error, but the payments were proper. lawmakers say there needs to be more of an effort to weed out any abuse. >> if this waste and fraud is happening in defense, multiply that throughout the entire

economy. just think how much money isfra obtained. >> he sponsored an amendment to an appropriations bill to allow the social security administration to notify employers when workers social security numbers do not match the numbers in the data base. that would apply to the private sector and the federal government. it's designed to flag and catch any coding errors or outright fraud. lisa sylvester, cnn, washington. coming up next, will the obama health care plan provide quality health care? will it lead to rationing of health care? that's the subject of our face off debate tonight. u.s. support for a leftist leader who wants to return to honduras is having an impact on politics in the united states certainly. quality and reliability...

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there are some in congress apparently concerned about the obama administration's support for a leftist leader removed from power in honduras and forced to leave the country after he tried in the opinion of the nation's supreme court to violate its institution. critics say the obama administration is supporting now a leader who ignored the honduran constitution and is tied to a leftist leader by the name of hugo chavez. >> reporter: latin american compatriots. leftist nicaraguan president advocates extending presidential term limits. venezuelan lead eer hugo chavez.

honduran president was ousted by the military after proposing a national vote on extending term limits. president obama says zelaya should be restored to office. some republicans say not so fast. >> the obama administration seems hell bent on restoring one person to power. it doesn't matter that he ran over the constitution. >> reporter: it's not just leftist leaders. right wing president of colombia engineered a constitutional change allowing him to run a second time. but in ze lie ya's case they say the administration is misguided in choosing the same side as chavez. >> mr. chavez has driven the train to a large degree on this. he's demanded ezelaya be retur >> regional experts, a

nonpartisan think tank say any negotiated solution must respect the constitution of honduras. >> the removal of the president by the military should not be viewed acceptable. zelaya was clearly engaged in a power grab. >> reporter: secretary clinton warned the government of harsh consequences if they do not accept a proposal to end the political standoff and allow zelaya to return to office. some in congress want to hold off the state department's appointment of a top diplomat to the region. he was questioned about the obama policy during a committee hearing on july 9th. hi appeared to hedge his answer saying he was not familiar with the details. >> i'm sorry, what job is he -- >> the top regional diplomat. >> and he's not familiar with what's going on in honduras? >> quite a hedge on the answer.

don't you think? >> one would hope it's a hedge. and he's not confessing ignorance about what's happening. extraordinary. thank you very much. up next the obama administration's stance on the second amendment leading to a shortage of ammunition across the country. and president obama launching an attack on his critics and opponents of his health care plan. time and again the american people have suffered because people in washington played the politics of the moment instead of putting the interest of the american people first. >> the president losing support in every recent public opinion poll. wheal exam the rhetoric and issues next.

president obama making an all out push to get his health care plan through congress before the august recess. in doing so he's been harshly lit call of his opponents. using what some are calling the rhetoric of fear. let's listen. >> time and again we've heard excuses to delay and defeat reform. time and again the american people have suffered because the people in washington play the politics of the moment. this isn't about me. this is isn't about politics. this is about a health care system that is breaking america's families. breaking america's businesses, and breaking america's economy. make no mistake. if we step back from this challenge at this moment we are consigning our children to a future of skyrocketing premiums and crushing deficits. every single day we wait to act thousands of americans lose their insurance. the american people are on board. it's now up to us. >> well, tomorrow the president

holds a prime time news conference. it will be live, of course, here on cnn at 8:00 p.m. eastern. there are serious questions, critical questions about the cost of the president's plan. and also the quality of the health care that it might provide. joining me now for tonight's face off debate. sally pipe, president and ceo of the pacific research institute. she says the obama plan is a disaster. and egor volsky is a health care researcher who says doing nothing will cost taxpayers three times as much in health care costs. thank you both for being here. let's start, if i may, with you sally. you say the obama health care plan means higher taxes, lower quality. we have one plan. lots of different options here it appears how would the cost rise? how much? >> we just release ad study that shows since 1970 medicare and

medicaid is 35% more expensive than private health insurance. so that worries me a lot. the cbo says by 2017 medicare and medicaid are going to be broke if we don't cut costs. the question is how do we reduce costs in health care. i think the president's plan and what's going on in the house and the senate are going to increase costs. we have estimates between 1 trillion to $1.6 trillion. you never see a government program that costs what politicians think it will cost. the cbo has even said with the house plan, contrary to what a lot of people say, they say it's going to take $239 billion into deficit. it's going to be hugely expensive with big tax increases. >> egor, your thoughts on this? >> well, lou, as you correctly know, many middle class american families are very concerned about the skyrocketing costs of health care. i would point to the report that sally pipes just referenced. that same report said the public

health insurance option would reduce premiums for families by 10% on average. so health reform if we do it right, if it includes the public, helps lower costs for american families. >> you say it will. that flies in the face of what the cbo is saying. it flies in the fals of the revelation that the obama doesn't even include paying for doctors fees fe crying out loud. which is over $200 billion. >> well, lou, as the president has pointed out making sure we don't have deficits down the road with this is very important to him. that's why he's proposed establishing a panel to work to reorient the way our system and the way medicare pays providers of doctors. quantity of care, not just quality. >> sally pipes, your thoughts on that? >> well, you know i come from

canada. i'm an american now. i grew up under government-run single payer health care. which i think the obama government is going to do for us. in canada costs went way up. government had to set a global budget. care had to be rationed. long waiting lists for care. lack of access to the latest technology. there's no question in my mind private insurer will be gone. >> lou, i want to be very clear about something. i want to make sure that sally hears me. we are not importing a canadian system into the united states. we're building an employer-based model. again i turn to the cbo which found under the house bill the number of people with private insurance, the number of people in employer-sponsored coverage would increase, not decrease. it would increase. you would have about 20 million people -- i'm sorry, about 10 million people in the public option. you would have about 20 million people in the exchange in private insurance. we're increasing private

insurance, not decreasing. >> what would be the total cost, igor, of the proposal? >> it's about a trillion dollars. but i would remind you if you put that number in the context of inaction and the context of doing nothing, then a trillion dollars is a very good investment for health care costs. for many middle class families in bankruptcy. it's about preventing medical bankruptcy. 68% of all bankruptcies have medical costs as a component. 75% of the families already had insurance. we want to make sure insurance is adequate for families so they're not spending too much and not going into bankruptcy. it's about the middle class. >> about the middle class. a trillion dollars. and at this point the most recent gallop usa today poll shows now 50% of those surveyed are rejecting the president's

handling of health care. sally pipes, as we're sitting here, i hear the numbers. the american people have to be confused about what is happening. the president is saying he wants this all by the first. igor was kind enough to suggest we do something thoughtful. but it sounds like that would be post passage that we would be thoughtful is that correct, igor? >> well, i think we've been talking about health care for 50 years. >> you're not suggesting because we've been talking about it we should just pass this? >> not at all. congress has been debating this. in the health committee they spent 13 days. >> were you suging we pass this and then fix it? >> no. i'm suggesting we do it in a thoughtful manner. >> can we do that by the first of august? >> i think it's possible. >> really? >> we know that the kennedy bill in the health committee was debated for hours and hours and hours. we saw in the house they're debating it now. they're going late into the night debating this bill. i think this is being discussed

and the notion that it's being rammed through is highly inaccurate and is used by some of on the political right to kill reform and to make this obama's waterloo as one senator said. >> that's interesting. sally, you get the last word. >> thank you. well i think what we're going to see -- i don't think the plan will be through -- any plan will be through before the recess. i think it will probably be in december. we have to slow this down. the american people don't want higher taxes and lower quality health care. 82% of americans like the health care that they have. we have 8 million who are chronically ill and uninsured. those are the people we should be taken care of. not destroying our system. >> thank you both so much. sally, thank you. igor, thank you. i'll have thoughts about the president's health care proposals and the most recent public opinion polls. join me on the radio monday through friday for the lou dobbs show. please go to loudobbs.com to get local listings for the show in your area.

follow me on lou dobbs news on twitter.com. we'll be talking health care. also ahead, new developments in the health care showdown. some democrats are saying they're baffled and frustrated by the president's position. also gun fears leading to a nationwide shortage of ammunition. announcer: what's your cialis moment? when she gives me that look. when at last we're alone. when we both decide. announcer: today, guys with erectile dysfunction can be ready with another dosing option from cialis. cialis for daily use is a clinically proven low-dose tablet you take every day, so you can be ready anytime the moment is right. so relax and take your time. tell your doctor about your medical condition and all medications and ask if you're healthy enough for sexual activity. don't take cialis if you take nitrates for chest pain, as this may cause an unsafe drop in blood pressure. don't drink alcohol in excess with cialis. side effects may include headache, upset stomach, delayed backache or

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a passionate debate today on the senate floor over a proposed law to allow gun owners to carry their weapons across state lines. one proposing they be allowed to take their licensed guns from one state to another with opposing laws. brianna keilar with our report. >> reporter: in vermont a 16-year-old can carry a loaded concealed weapon without a permit. but when a vermonter crosses into neighboring new york, home to some of the strictest gun laws in the country, that right evaporates. senator john thune, a republican from south dakota wants to change that. he's pushing an amendment to allow people with concealed weapon permits from their home states to carry their guns to other states that allow concealed weapons. >> reliable research shows that states can concealed carry lows enjoy significantly lower crime rates than those states that do not. >> reporter: new york's chuck

schumer and other democratic senators representing states with large urban areas say changing the law will put americans in danger. >> if this amendment is adopted this hypothetical vermonter would be free to stroll through central park or times square with a backpack of loaded guns. >> reporter: many democrats support gun rights. including senate majority leader harry reid, who has said he will vote for the amendment. like many democrats who will vote yes on this, harry reid is from a western western state, nevada, in his case where there's a strong tradition of gun owner ship and also serious political consequences. we are told, lou, by republican top aides but also democratic top aides they expect this will pass the senate tomorrow when they vote on this expansion of gun rights.

>> that's impressive. to hear senator schumer say that, there's nothing in the thune amendment that would suggest, is there, is senator schumer correct that because gun laws will permit concealed carry for a person in vermont that they could ignore state laws prescribing them from doing so in new york. or is that hi-- >> that's a question i had, lou. i put that to a republican aide to one of the top aides. and he told me that would be the case. it's fuzzy because new york city has its own gun regulations but it appears that could be the case. there is a shortage of ammunition all across this country. the shortage is affecting police and sheriff departments as well as private gun owners aun gun dealers. now gun shops, and i mean from coast to coast, they're reporting a run on ammunition. something that started right

after the election of president obama. gun oners are growing increasingly concern that had the president and the democratically controlled congress will real strict second amendment rights. >> reporter: from the firing range to the gun shop, gun makers and gun dealers say bullets are in short supply. >> you're 38, very scarce item. >> reporter: even police departments are feeling the pinch. >> the orders are about six to mine months behind schedule. >> reporter: if bullets really are in short supply the question is why? . many point to politics. >> given president obama's track record in the illinois senate where he supported 500% increase in taxes on ammunition. there was a lot of concern, and there remains concern about the obama administration's intentions. >> reporter: he says he's also concerned that congress led by a democratic majority will move to limit second amendment rights. political science professor and

author robert spitzer says such fears are self perpetuating. >> it's a way for the gun rights community to rally supporters, to increase membership, and to depict the obama administration rightly or wrongly as this arch opponent of gun owner ship and gun rights. >> reporter: during his campaign president obama made a promise. promise to defend the second amendment. >> you've heard it here. i'm on television. everybody knows it. i believe in the second amendment. i believe in people's lawful right too bear arms. i will not take your shotgun away. i will not take your rifle away. i won't take your handgun away. >> i hope he keeps those campaign promises. i'll tell you this, though, if they break them, the nra and the american public will be there defending this freedom. >> story definitely has people talking today. one gun dealer says he tells

time in two eras. he says pre-obama versus post-obama auto supply era. but spitzer and a number of different gun dealers say the shortage should run itself out in the coming months. >> and somebody is actively seeking to replenish the ammunition then? >> i talked to remmington. if you're looking for a job, that's a spot to go. >> hot part of the economy. >> they've added a fourth shift. >> an upside in the economy. thanks. up next the issue that won't go away. the matter of president obama and that birth certificate. now facing rising criticism from within his own party, democrats say the cost of his health care proposals are simply too high. they are baffled. that's their word. not mine. to stay on top of my game after 50,

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joining me now are -- from philadelphia, from wpht, good to have you with us. and washington, d.c. whfs, guy lambert. here in new york, dr. joy brown. great to have you.

let's start out with the latest poll numbers and let me begin first with you, joy, if i may. the president's approval rating is taking a beating. the latest poll numbers usa today gallup poll showing, 50% disapproving on the issue overall. what's your reaction? >> first of all, i think there's no question that the people are beginning to look and say, okay, what can you really do here? but i would also argue or point out, lou, that this is not an unusual phenomenon. >> you can argue, it's fine. >> you want to arm wrestle here? >> no, you can't argue with me. >> guy, i'll argue with you, this is not an abnormal thing to happen during a presidency. >> yeah, we hear all about it. we saw 66% approval ratings for both president carter and george h.w. bush, 41% for clinton at the same time. guy, your reaction? >> well, from a popularity standpoint, the president gets an a plus plus in my opinion.

i think from an image standpoint -- >> well, we can throw out the gallup poll. what's your reaction to the poll, though? >> well, i think overall -- >> what's causing it? >> you've got to look at the unemployment rate. we can easily say that a month ago when i appeared at your show and 8.1% and now at 9.1% and even if we all hold hands and sing, we'll probably top out at about 10% by the year end. this is a major issue for the president, something the president will have to deal with or else republicans in the long run. >> for the first time the survey shows by -- on the same issue of health care reform that there's the same right. 50% disapproved, 44% approved. your thoughts? >> my thoughts, lou, is this is a honeymoon period. but it's more than this. >> well, the honey moon's over because 50% disapprove and 44% approve. >> right, and lou, it's so obvious to me too that a lot of

people are having second thoughts more than the normal honey moon period with the unemployment rate, the spending we're doing, and that health care piece of this, particularly among independents. i look toward independents and independent support for obama is eroding at a pretty rapid rate. >> guy, you say that your listeners are concerned about unemployment. i think we could all say that. what are your listeners saying? >> well, for the most part, d.c. has somewhat been not affected by the unemployment rate. d.c. right now has the number one job market in the country. that's great news for us folks here in d.c. however, you've got to keep in mind that the unemployment rate affects our family members, our friends, folks we chitchat with. >> your listeners are keeping their jobs and folks in michigan are looking at 15%. joy, your thoughts? >> i think that unemployment is the issue here because what i'm hearing is that even people who have jobs are worried about losing them. layoffs continue downsizing, and it's effecting, as you point out, families.

effecting marriages, how people spend their money, how they view their retirement. and i think that employment, and again, i think at this moment we're saying we elected you, you're popular, what are you going to do for us? and i think it's still to be determined. brand new into the term. >> another issue, and that is the birth certificate. this thing is, you know, i don't know about you, i'm getting calls now. often. and i'm not talking about -- we saw mike castle, congressman castle in delaware. he had a meeting, dom, actually, that became the focus, the president's birth certificate. there are some claim he was born dom in a different country. the president, obviously, just has to produce the original birth certificate in hawaii and be done with it. what are your listeners saying about this? or are they dismissing it? >> no, they're not dismissing it, lou, in fact, we're the capital city of the birthers. the guy named phil berg.

he's the leading figure in this. i happen to think this is the fault of the obama administration not producing the original records. this would've gone away. now you have all of these people grabbing on to this and maybe not surprisingly in the age that we live in, lou, with conspiracies, et cetera, this has legs. >> guy? >> well, lou, i have to agree. the president all he's actually produced thus far is a certificate of live birth, big difference from the live birth. anyone pretty much anyone can obtain a certificate of live birth. why not produce the birth certificate? if it were me, i'd show my bingo card, as well. >> we had people, including reporters from the l.a. times calling up because i referred to this. and i mean, instead of calling the white house to ask why they didn't do it, they're calling me to ask why i said i don't know what the reality is. no one does. >> let me tell you, as a psychologist, you know what i do? i say look, i'm the president,

yf have to do it and sat some point -- >> would that be the psychology of a president or some autocrat in a distant country? as i last remember, this is a democratic republic, people are supposed to be respected as citizens and -- >> i don't know that the public is asking for it. >> oh, you don't? i do. you heard all of your colleagues say they are. thank you, guys. coming up at the top of the hour, john roberts in for campbell brown. we're looking at what role race played in an african-american scholar after he was seen forcing his way into his own home. another big question tonight, should the mother of a 555-pound teenager be arrested for child neglect. plus tonight's news maker, tom watson who came that close to winning the british open. all that plus our mash-up of all of the other news today. >> yeah, tom watson, that last pot, what a heart breaker.

thanks. look forward to it. we'll be right back. if you're taking 8 extra-strength tylenol...

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