conference at 8:00 eastern. at 9:00 eastern, "black in america 2." i'll be back for american morning. among our guests new york mayor michael bloomberg. i'm john roberts. right now, "larry king live." >> larry: tonight -- >> not true, that's a bunch of jive. >> larry: reaction to joe jackson's explosive allegations about his son michael's death. >> you don't take a doctor, stick him in the room, and the doctor give him something to rest and he don't wake up no more. something is wrong there. >> larry: his confusion over where michael's body is? >> i don't know, you have to ask somebody who knows. >> larry: and his defense of his parenting skills. >> i didn't make no mistakes, larry. >> larry: plus sarah palin's new ethics problems. how much trouble is she in now? and obama's health care push, is he blowing it?

and new developments in the shocking killings of that florida couple with all of those adopted kids. were they murders for hire? next on "larry king live." a diversified show tonight. we begin in new orleans james carville, cnn political contributor and democratic strategist, and in washington, liz cheney, the former deputy assistant secretary of state in the administration of president george w. bush, and the daughter of the former vice president dick cheney. let's start with the latest concerning the soon to be former governor of alaska. our ap reports, guys, that an independent investigator for the alaska personnel board has found evidence that sarah palin may have violated ethics laws by accepting private donations to pay her legal bills. how much trouble could this mean for her, james? >> yeah, probably honestly, not

a lot. she's leaving office, she might get an ethics finding against her. it's clear that the palins are strapped for money and that's why she's leaving money, she wants to go out and make money and she was trying to raise money to pay for some of this stuff and from what we know it might have been something untold about it. but i don't think she's in a great deal of trouble. who cares? she's not going to be governor any more, so let the ethics board have a finding against her, she'll give speeches and stuff. i don't view this as anything shocking or surprising. >> larry: all right. good point, liz? >> well, i think we've seen a pretty clear pattern here where governor palin's political enemies, you know, have launched attacks against her. i don't know about the details of this latest ethics charge, but i think the statistics speak for themselves. there have been 19 or 20 charges filed now and then all of them, i think, she's been cleared. you know, i think it's become sort of standard practice for people's political opponents to use this kind of allegation to

try to sort of get them off of the public scene and get them out of the debate. governor palin has shown herself completely unwilling to be laid low by her political opponents. i think we'll continue to hear from her and she'll continue to be an important voice on a whole range of issues that matter to the country. >> larry: james, why do you think she's resigning? why is she resigning? >> because she's tired of being governor and wants to go out and make money. it's completely evident why she's resigning. she's resigning because being attacked by political opponents, that's the first time that's ever happened in politics, what a surprise that is. no, she's become ineffective, and perfectly understandable that she wants to go out and make money for her family and let her go. and as long as she can do anything she wants as long as she stays away from the oval office, i don't think anybody really cares. >> larry: liz, where does she stand in your party at this point? >> well, i think she's a hugely effective speaker, an important

voice on a whole range of issues, and i think every time somebody like james attacks her, she goes up in the estimation of, you know, many conservatives and frankly independents in the country. so, look, i think it's, you know, there's a lot of sexism involved in the charges against her, there are a lot of attacks that, you know, she's been on the receiving end of because she was our vice presidential candidate last time around. i think that she is now going to clearly not disappear from the scene, going to be here in the lower 48 talking about issues that matter for the country, and i think, you know, if she's interested in a run in 2012 or 2016, you know, she'll have to face the same kind of tests that sort of a whole range of really impressive candidates on the republican side will have to face. you know, we'll have to prove to the american voters that we're the ones that have got the ideas and the substance about how to return this country back to the path it ought to be on and away from some of the massive government spending and government programs and the weakening of our national defense that this administration's putting in

place. so i think the next election is going to be about issues, it's going to be about substance, people love to talk about personalities now. but i think at the end of the day, the american people are much more focussed on their national security than on this. >> larry, let me be clear, no democrat wants sarah palin to go anywhere. and i think the fact that sarah palin is in the top tier of republican candidates says a lot about the quality of leadership in that party. so we can do anything we want. she is at the elite level of the modern republican party and that'll give you an indication of how much trouble they're in. >> well, i think there has been, clearly, a lot of criticism of her. for example, by feminists. feminists across this country -- people who call themselves feminists don't like to see a woman in politics who is pro-life, a woman in politics who says, yeah, i've got to balance kids and a career. sort of a lot of issues that people like gloria steinman and others have turned themselves

away from. they don't like republican strong women. look, i do think there has been some sexism here. but i think, you know, i think james and i would agree that substance at the end of the day is what matters. and if you look at the poll numbers, i'd say that, you know, the leadership in the democratic party right now is frankly having a lot more problems than the leadership in the republican party. >> larry: let's switch gears. >> i emphasize, she is at the top tier, the elite level of intellect at the republican party. >> the numbers will go up and up and up. >> larry: let's switch gears. president obama has renewed his public push on health care reform in recent days. here's something he said earlier today in the rose garden. >> i know that there are those in this town who openly declare their intention to block reforms. it's a familiar washington script that we've seen many times before. these opponents of reform would rather score political points than offer relief to americans who have seen premiums double

and costs grow three times faster than wages. they would maintain a system that works for the insurance and the drug companies while becoming increasingly unaffordable for families and for businesses. >> larry: let's start with liz this time. the republican senator jim demint said that if obama's health care plan fails, it'll be his waterloo, it's going to break him. do you believe that, liz? >> you know, i think, it's clearly an important issue for president obama, he's made it an important issue. and why it's so important is because it matters to the american people. and i think the president's developing a real credibility problem on this issue. one of the main reasons during the campaign we heard him talk about the need for reform was that he needed to cut costs. we all needed to cut cost in our health care program. and now the congressional budget office has come out and said costs are going to increase. the other thing we've heard him say throughout the campaign is if you like your insurance, you'll be able to keep it. but now the white house staff has said that very surprising

thing is don't take him literally on that. i think the american people, they know that we need some kind of reform in our health care system, but they don't want the kind of reform this president and the democratic congress are putting forward. >> larry: would you say the thought, liz, of reform is unanimous. everyone wants some reform? >> yeah, i think it's clear that, you know, there are some things that need to be done to fix the system. however, i think that there's absolutely no justification, and you see the american people now growing increasingly concerned about the president's plans, the democrats on the hill, the plans that would really turn our system into a canadian or a british system where you don't get to decide who your doctor is and where the government is deciding who gets what treatments. that's simply -- >> larry: let me get a break -- let me get a break and we'll have james' response. and we'll discuss how this effects obama's approval ratings. can i tell you what a difference phillips' colon health has made? it's the probiotics. the good bacteria. that gets your colon back in balance. i'm good to go! phillips' colon health.

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now, james, usa today gallup poll shows that 50% disapprove, 44% disapprove. how much trouble is it in? >> well, i mean, look, if you listen to what we're saying, the republicans, it's dead. i happen to think they have a very good chance at this. and i also think if you listen to the republicans and a lot of people in the media, that the economy's not going anywhere. i think that's not true. if the president doesn't get his health care bill, if, in fact, as we're constantly being told by the republican party the economy is not doing better,

then he's going to be in trouble. if, however, contrary to every prediction of every talking head, of every republican, if this president is able to get a health care bill, it's going to look pretty good. and i think people are jumping to the conclusion that this thing is dead. i'm fine with that conclusion because in the end, if he succeeds, this will be the most monumental achievement people can imagine. look, the president was wrong, the health care costs did not -- premiums didn't go up 100% under bush, they went up 120%. i'm amused by administrations they say deficit didn't matter. health care costs went up almost 25% in the last eight years, 60% of all bankruptcies as a result of health care costs. so, yes, there is a sense of urgency here, a sense -- these statistic are unacceptable to a democrat. they may be acceptable to sarah palin and the republicans, but to democrats, this is unacceptable and this president's moving that direction. >> well, the fundamental --

>> larry: do you disagree with that? >> well, the fundamental problem with his argument is we know that the budget office that those costs are going to go up even more under all of the plans under consideration now. and i think at the end of the day, again, i would say i'm less interested, frankly in whether this, you know, failure of this plan helps or hurts president obama than i am in whether this plan is going to hurt the american people. and, you know, when you've got a situation now where the president is pushing so hard to get this plan through that he himself doesn't even know what's in the bill. he had a conference call yesterday with a bunch of liberal bloggers. this is not a hostile audience. and one of the bloggers asked him, you know, mr. president, is it true under hr-3200, it will be impossible to keep your own insurance? and the president's answer was i'm really not familiar with that. that ought to give people a lot of pause and concern. this is a president who is trying to nationalize 1/6 of our economy and who is saying we've got to do it within the next two weeks and he doesn't even know

what's in the legislation. i think that there's no way to argue that's good for the american people. >> you know, i have to kind of just chime in here. first of all, it's not the president's piece of legislation. the second thing is, it'll get passed -- >> it's not health care reform, james, i thought you said it was going to be his shining success? >> excuse me for speaking while you interrupt me. >> no, go ahead. >> thank you, i appreciate that. again, to republican standards, 120% increase in family premiums is fine, 60% of people in bankruptcy. >> james, are you going to ignore the congressional -- >> larry: let him finish, liz. >> again, i'm sorry. it was no democrat that said that deficits didn't matter. >> are you going to ignore the congressional budget office. all kinds of great talking points. >> larry: liz, you've got to let him finish. >> when the legislation that is passed is scored, we will see where it is. but what i find amazing is the fact that after all of this happened, that they're saying

this is fine, there's no crisis in health care. we don't need to do anything. then, they come in and they say, wait, this is score, when everybody knows the cbo score was incomplete. so let's be real candid here. the situation that obama inherited was completely untenable, the premiums were up 120% for a family, 60% of the people in bankruptcy, this cannot stand, this president, this congress, i believe is going to surprise people. >> but this is a really important point. because first of all, the amount of tax increases that we're clearly going to see. we now have speaker pelosi saying it's $1 million or more, but that includes small businesses. you don't think people are going to go out of business because of the tax increases to pay for these health care plans? secondly, we've now already seen increasing taxes across the board cap and trade, increasing taxes ontobacco, in complete violation of president obama's campaign promises.

now, it's great, james, to spew a lot of facts and figures. we can go through the numbers of who actually is uninsured, but i really would like to hear you answer the question. >> larry: let me get -- >> why do you think we're going to be better off with a plan that the cbo says is going to increase -- >> larry: let me get a break -- we'll come back. we'll come right back. hold it. we'll come right back with james carville and liz cheney and more on health care and other things as we go to break. that is the continent of asia, and you are looking at a total solar eclipse. what a shot. ♪ (announcer) introducing new tums dual action. this tums goes to work in seconds and lasts for hours. all day or night. new tums dual action. bring it on.

the first complete women's multivitamin in a drink mix. with more calcium and vitamin d... to support bone and breast health... while helping you hydrate. one a day women's 2o. refreshingly healthy. >> larry: this solar eclipse visible from asia and also from india. quite a sight. doesn't happen very often. before we move to some other topics, just quickly, yes or no,

james, is this bill going to pass? >> i think it will. i'm very confident. >> larry: liz? >> i certainly hope not. i think it'd be really, you know, damaging outcome for the american people. if you think that the va hospital, that medicare, that the british system, that the canadian system, and those systems, british and canadian system where you've got cancer patients with higher mortality rates because they can't get the treatment they need, people that think that's a good idea and those are good systems -- >> larry: but the question -- the only question was do you think -- >> well, i believe this is true. i think the va system has the best outcomes of maybe any hospital system in the united states. and you know, i think veterans don't really like to have their health care be -- >> i think veterans deserve the best health care possible, james. but i think it's a bureaucracy. do you really believe -- >> larry: the obama press conference is tomorrow night, and 8:00 p.m. eastern. we'll be back and we'll get to other areas of discussion

between carville and cheney. we ought to send them on the road, we'll be right back. some lunch.

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call now. >> larry: in the time we have remaining, governor mark sanford was supposed to discuss the proposed. instead he had to field questions about his extramarital affair and how anyone can trust him begin. watch. >> i made a mistake in life. i have apologized for that mistake. i said all i'm going to say on that one, and i'm moving forward, i think the people of south carolina are ready to do so. >> larry: all right, liz, given the gop's efforts to brand itself as a party of family

values, how does it handle things like sanford and john ensign. >> look, i mean, you know, i think we've got plenty of folks in both parties who -- >> larry: but we're talking about the hypocrisy, liz. >> anybody who takes a wedding vow and then cheats on their spouse is a hypocrite. i think i can hold unjohn edwards and eliot spitzer. i think the american people are sick of it, whether the democratic side or the republican side, frankly. i don't think anybody's out there condoning the behavior. i think the way that governor sanford handled it today was right. i don't think people want to hear a lot about it. i think it's an issue between him and his wife and his family and his god and, you know, the people that voted for him and elected him want him to take care of the issues that matter to the people of south carolina. >> larry: when you go around promoting family values is it a question of hypocrisy, jim. >> it's always a question of -- sorry, that was for jim. >> sure it is. but i agree, i don't think you

ought to resign. i think larry craig should resign, i didn't think ensign should resign. but when you go around you have -- and they always moralizing about family values and this stuff. what they ought to do is try the best they can to govern and shut up about this other stuff. let churches and schools deal with this kind of stuff. but they want to act like they're more moral than other people. we're all human. >> i think the democrats want to do that too. i think there's nobody who is more guilty of a holier than thousand approach that has john edwards was. and frankly his indiscretions, i think were particularly troubling given that his wife, you know, is in a situation where she's got terminal cancer. so i think we can, you know, clearly demonstrate hi pack ray is across the board. >> i don't think john edwards moralized about family values, i don't think john edwards was

criticized -- >> about my own family's values, james. i think there's plenty of hypocrisy to go around. >> i don't think john edwards ever moralized about this kind of thing. >> he did, james, i think that's not right. >> i'm sorry for talking -- just want to say one thing. the va hospital, all of you doctors and the people in the va system, i think you do an excellent job. >> they do an excellent job. and i think that -- >> larry: one other thing. one other thing. one more thing. the issue -- liz -- >> people don't get to choose the medicine. >> we're getting repetitive, guys. the issue of barack obama's birth certificate is now attracting attention again. check out this youtube video from a recent town hall meeting held by republican congressman mike castle. watch. >> and i want to know why are you people ignoring his birth certificate? he is not an american citizen.

he is a citizen of kenya. i am an american, my father fought in world war ii with the bravest generation in the pacific theater. for this country. and i don't want this -- i want my country back. >> larry: that lady is ticked. what do you make of this, james? >> well, that lady's a poor thing, reads all of this goofy stuff that you hear on one of our rival networks, this kind of goofy stuff you hear. how many times do you have to go through it? birth announcements in the paper to the birth certificate or anything else. but this is kind of an indicative of what the republican party is about. they've got every kind of -- people that don't believe people landed on the moon. there's nothing i can do about that. and anybody else can, you know. >> larry: liz, do you buy any of this? >> i think the democrats have

got more crazies than the republicans do. but setting that aside. one of the reasons you see people so concerned about this, i think this issue are people are uncomfortable with having for the first time ever, i think, a president that seems so reluctant to defend the nation overseas. a president who sits through completely venomous by daniel ortega and his only response when the united states has been attacked is say, hey, basically i was only 3 at the time. and we've seen this -- james, don't interrupt me. we've seen this again and again and again where the president seems to sort of want to -- >> larry: what does that have to -- are you saying because he's a kenyan? >> no, i'm not saying that. i'm saying that people are fundamentally uncomfortable and fundamentally unincreasingly uncomfortable with an american president who won't stand up for what we believe in. >> again, you know -- >> indicative. >> larry: james, go ahead.

liz, let him answer. >> yeah, a volume of words. but again -- >> i'm quality too, james, go ahead, sorry. >> you're right. i've been accused of hurling facts around. let me hurl a fact around. these people -- these poor pathetic people are believing stuff just like ms. cheney tonight. she refuses to say this is lewd kr ludicrous because she wants these people to believe this. they can't say that. they can't say that because -- >> james i am -- >> the sort of nut wing of their party. >> larry: we're out of time, guys. >> i think there's plenty to be concerned about with this president. and i think -- >> larry: all right. >> we've got to look forward in terms of the things he's doing in this country. >> larry: thanks, guys. james carville and liz cheney. by the way, liz, you going to run for office? >> no plans right away.

i've got a lot on my plate right now, larry. >> larry: not right now. >> i'm going to call james when i make my decision. >> larry: yeah, hire him. >> lay off the va. they're a good bunch. >> larry: new developments in the murder of the florida couple. we go to break with more of the incredible solar eclipse. where the moon comes between the earth and the sun. look at that. you have questions. who can give you the financial advice you need? where will you find the stability and resources

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>> larry: we go to pensacola, florida, susan candiotti, cnn national correspondent standing by along with sheriff david morgan, the sheriff where the murders took place july 9th, seven suspects charged, another

charged in helping them. what's the latest, susan? >> reporter: well, there have been a lot of developments in the last couple of days. we're seeing search affidavits filed in court. we're learning what kind of evidence police say they are seizing. but most importantly today, according to court documents, we're hearing that one of the suspects is already pointing the finger at one of the other defendants defined as the suspected gunman here and saying, yes, he was the sole shooter, the only one shooting the gun that shot and killed this couple, the billings in their bedroom. >> larry: sheriff, is that leonard gonzalez? >> that's leonard gonzalez jr., yes, sir. >> larry: how do you take that when one says something about another? >> well, of course, that's a piece of evidence we take into consideration, larry. but again, i want to caution everyone that there's more to this than just a witness

statement. we've yet to get the ballistics back from the alcohol, tobacco, and firearms test on all of the weapons that have been seized and taken into evidence. we have yet to get the pathologist report to match up the calibers of the weapons. until we match up the physical evidence with the testamentary evidence we cannot arrive at a conclusion as to whether there was one shooter or five shooters. the jury is out on that evidence. right now we have the one piece that has been released to the public. that's only what we can go off of. >> larry: susan, what's the big question to you in all of this? >> reporter: well, you really want to find out whether, indeed, robbery was the only motive here. what were they going after? it doesn't seem like from what we know so far that the suspects in this case recovered and got away with very much. according to what the sheriff has said before, we've only known about a safe that only had some heirloom jewelry, what else

is out there? what else could be behind this? >> larry: all right, sheriff. are we any closer to nailing a new motive? making any additional arrests? what can you tell us in that area? >> yes, sir, the investigation continues. we think we're very close to making at least one more arrest. but larry, if i can, let me refine and define this motive that everybody seems to be wrapping themselves around -- i find that very interesting and that's the things that books and movie scripts are made of. let me give you my law enforcement perspective on motive. i do not care. what the motive is. my job and responsibility as the sheriff of this county is to identify those people who were involved in this crime that committed this horrible crime upon citizens in my county and to bring them into justice. you know, it's nice talk show f fodder whether or not they were breast-fed or had enough twinkies when they were growing

up. i do not care. >> larry: all right. aren't you puzzled about why someone does something to someone? isn't that part of the -- >> i am -- i am, sir. and i leave that to the psychologists and the sociologist and the criminalnologists that will follow far behind us. and i find it greatly interesting and something that we can discuss, but from a terrifically law enforcement perspective, that does not come on my scope. >> larry: all right, sheriff. from a law enforcement perspective, is this a mind-boggling case? or is it a colombo? >> it -- well, it's a colombo from the perspective, larry, that we're going to solve this thing. and my intent and i will complete this task is to bring all of those that have been associated with this case to justice. anybody that helped in any way or is culpable in any way, i intend toe see they're brought before the bar of justice. so is it a mind-boggling crime? you bet, because of the number of people that have been involved in this.

and i've made comparisons to the murder in kansas and also made reference to those murders that occurred in california. we have more involved in this case than they had in either one of those two. so yes, it is mind-boggling from that perspective. >> larry: one other thing, sheriff. how close do you think we are to a wrap-up? >> we have -- again, we have three persons of interest that we're still interviewing, and sadly what comes out of these interviews, larry, many times more people, not necessarily persons of interest. but we believe we have one more solid arrest to make and quite possibly a second. but at this time, we're focusing on the one. the one may be one of those that while we know that they had an involvement with this case, it may not be enough to bring charges, but that, again, is not my concern, that's the concern of the state attorney. >> larry: always good talking to you. susan candiotti and sheriff david morgan. when we come back, a legendary man.

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♪ >> larry: it's time for impact your world. hard to believe it, more than two decades ago that willie nelson took action when american farms were going under. the first farm aid concert took place in 1985, and every year since then, willie has done his

part to help those who feed us all. willie joins us now by phone from his tour bus to tell us about this year's farm aid event in missouri. who's performing, willie? >> well, we've got the regulars on there, me and john mellencamp, dave matthews, and also blackwood brothers quartet is going to be there. so we're looking forward to a big show. we're having it this year october the 4th. it'll be at the horizon center there in st. louis. so at the verizon wireless amphitheater. tickets will go on sale on the 25th of july. >> larry: how did this start? >> well, i wasn't really aware that the farmers were having a problem, but back in -- oh it must have been '85, i guess, big

jim thompson was the governor of illinois. so he and i were having every year at the fair, he and i would kind of like a ritual would have a bottle of beer, a bowl of chichi chili and talk about things. that's when we started planning the first farm aid, and 21 days later we had the first one in champaigne, illinois. >> larry: is it kind of a shame that we still have to do it? >> oh, absolutely. i thought one would be all that would be necessary and then we would get a good farm bill, figure out a way to keep small family farmers on the farm. and then i started seeing trends where there was a big push on the other way to make it more -- big corporation conglomerate farmers and a big push to take the small family farmers off the land. back when we were in world war ii, when we were the strongest, we had what we call a 100% parody for all our producers.

we guaranteed all production and labor costs. that was when we were the strongest. so i think we need to consider things like that again. >> larry: do you know if this economy how hard it's hit the farmer? >> oh, he was the first one hit. you know, the bottom rung on the economic ladder is agriculture. and that bottom rung went out a long time ago, ever since we've been having farm aid. in fact, it went out a long time before we started having our first farm aids. we used to have 8 million small family farmers on the land, now we're countering less than 2 million, losing 3 million to 4 million every week. so that trend has to stop. >> larry: all right, october 4th, it's in st. louis. how do people get tickets? >> let me see now. i think you can do farm aid on the internet and you can get tickets there. >> larry: okay. that's a simple way to do it. we look forward to it, willie. and as always, cnn will be there

watching it. thanks, willie. >> thank you, good talking to you, larry. bye-bye. >> larry: keep on keeping on, the great willie nelson. farm aid october 4th, st. louis. by the way, you can go to cnn.com/larryking or cnn.com/impactyourworld for more on willie and farm aid and how you can help. and we'll be back in 60 seconds with reaction to our interview last night with mr. jackson. (announcer) this is nine generations

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something to make him rest and then he don't wake up no more. something is wrong there. the doctor -- the doctor -- the doctor just somehow i understand that he left and went to sleep or something, i don't know what happened. but he tried to bring michael -- >> larry: are you implying, then, that the doctor committed foul play? >> something went wrong -- something went wrong, larry. because when they tried to bring michael back, he was dead. something went wrong. >> larry: joe also pointed a finger of suspicion at michael's personal physician dr. conrad murray. we asked dr. murray to respond to joe jackson's comments. his spokesman has issued this statement. we are not going to respond to any statements made by the jackson family or anyone else at this time. dr. murray continues to cooperate with los angeles investigators in their efforts to determine the cause of michael jackson's death. our hollywood insiders are next with their takes on joe jackson and last night.

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>> larry: before we talk about reaction to last night's interview, let's check in with john king sitting in for anderson cooper, he'll host "ac 360" at the top of the hour. what's up tonight? >> we've been talking about that interview in here all day. coming up on "360," we knew the honeymoon was over, but some say the downward spiral has begun. that's the question many are asking about president obama as new polls show his popularity are taking serious hits. we'll go to the magic wall and break it down. up close, charges of racial profiling by one of the most prominent african-american scholars in america. there are as always two sides to the story. we'll look at both so you can make up your mind about what you think happened. all that plus the city of oakland, california, voting on what some say could solve the

budget woes. brilliant idea to some, idiotic to others. we'll bring you an update live at the top of the hour on "360," larry. >> larry: that's john king sitting in for anderson cooper, 10:00 eastern, 7:00 pacific. jim morret, an attorney and frequent host of this program. he blogs at showbiz 411.com. what did you make of last night, jim? >> we've been talking about it all day. it was a strange interview. it seems as if he wanted to rehabilitate himself. he said a lot of strange things in the past. and i came away feeling that he fell flat. i really do. i didn't understand what he was trying to say. whatever it was, it didn't seem to be working. >> larry: i felt frustrated. >> you said many times, you're his father. why didn't you know about the autopsy report? you didn't even hear about his death until a fan told you? those are strange things.

>> larry: roger, what was your read? >> larry, i thought you were very -- you did a great job with him. you let the two of those guys talk and talk and talk until they talked themselves into a hole. that guy leonard rowe, the idea he could be his financial adviser for two minutes, if you knew the list of things he's had wrong legally, including two incarcerations, past bad checks. and, of course, he's just the kind of guy that joe jackson would be aligned with and then joe jackson just lying, lying, lying about everything. and how he can sit there and say he never beat michael. he had a press conference for about six journalists about eight years ago where we asked him and the way he described it was i beat their backs. i mean, that's how he talks and that's how he treated those kids. this is a guy who has no self-awareness at all and no idea of what his position is in his own family. >> larry: during our interview last night, joe insisted that he made no mistakes in raising

michael. here's what he said when i asked him about those allegations of abuse. didn't he of abuse. didn't he once say you were physically/emotionally abusive to him. >> i have never been abusive to him. never have. >> larry: did he ever say that to your knowledge? >> i don't know whether he said that or not. the media keeps hollering about abuse. i never abused my son. >> it is not the media. michael jackson said to oprah winfrey in a huge interview and again ten years later, my father beat me. he abused me. this has been in the public. michael jackson is not here anymore to refute joe jackson's claims. it has been in the public. joe jackson had the opportunity to refute it. he didn't. >> larry: wasn't the age of spare the rod and spoil the child? >> not exactly. i have people who worked for the jacksons in the '70s who talk

about how when the kids were rehearsing for the jackson 5, if joe didn't like what michael was doing he would lock him in a dark closet. he harassed, he tortured this kid. you wonder why michael jackson says he couldn't sleep. if he did die of diprivan or something where he couldn't sleep and needed extreme medicines, this is why. he had nightmares about joseph jackson. this is why joseph jackson is not in michael's will. that should tell us everything right there. >> larry: i asked him about michael's three kids and whether he would encourage them to go into show business. watch. >> i'm not encouraging them to do nothing. nay have to be what they are, kids at the moment, yes, and be raised properly. >> larry: the rumors that you wanted to tour the jackson three -- >> not true. that is a bunch of jive. i wish i could say what i should

say. that is a bunch of bull. >> you were very polite. he said it himself. he said that blanket could dance. i know paris wants to do something. i think somebody talked to him. look, you are hurting our ability to have katherine the guardian of these kids, someone, possibly debbie rowe, is concerned you are going to insinuate yourself into their lives. >> larry: when we come back we ask roger and leonard rowe. don't go away.

>> larry: leonard rowe a former business associate of michael's appeared, highly critical of aeg

live the promoter of michael jackson's concerts. here is some of what he said. >> michael was being controlled. i was not on aeg payroll. i was not one of their people. they did not want me around michael jackson or anyone around michael jackson they did not control. because if they could keep people from around michael jackson, that was trying to look out for his well being and people that actually cared about michael, they could reach their goal of stripping michael. that's what i truly felt. >> larry: roger, what do you make of that? >> these two guys, these are the only ones people were trying to keep away from michael jackson. leonard rowe and joseph jackson called me on march 18th, i just looked it up on my cell phone bill. they called me to say after the aeg concerts were announced they wanted to get involved and take over the concerts. joe jackson said i have to fix

this. it is no good. why? he and leonard rowe was not getting a cut of it. leonard rowe was sued by r-kelly for $3.4 million for setting up a fraudulent tour. he had to paid neyo $700,000. the guy has an awful reputation. >> larry: aeg sent us a statement addressing a number of assertions made. aeg said michael wanted nothing to do with rowe and dismissed him. aeg says rowe misunderstands the facts with regards to decisions about this is it concert. michael jackson was very much involved in hiring the individuals on his management, business and medical teams, but also with the creation of the concerts, the scheduling of the performance and rehearsals, development of the merchandise and other related facets of the

show. he determined ultimately who his advisors were as well as all of the creative content. pretty strong. >> aeg said michael agreed to ten concerts and made it 50. they agreed to 31, they rolled out the first ten. they saw the response was amazing. they agreed to add 19. michael jackson was a shrewd businessman. to suggest he didn't know he was obligated and they spaced it out at his request. >> sony pictures is going to release a movie, sony is going to release a movie, they paid $60 million for the rehearsal footage that went on. aeg had 100 hours of rehearsal footage. the movie is going to come out

october 30th and it will show michael very involved in all aspects of the show not just doing a moonwalk. >> roger, that deal has to be approved by the probate judge. john branca negotiated that, right? >> yeah. the jackson estate gets 90% and aeg gets 10%. the film is going to show that michael was completely in charge of his own faculties. >> larry: what keeps the legs going in this story? >> there are so many branchs. >> larry: the star is gone. >> no. that is not true. there is more music coming out. we are going to hear music from michael jackson for years. there is one estimate that movie could make $350 million at the box office. people are fascinated by michael jackson. he has been humanized with that horrible footage on fire. we see a different side to this man. people are looking at his art

and this bizarre soap opera around his life. >> larry: do you think people feel sorry for him based on his father performs, roger? >> based on how his father performs. >> larry: looking the way his dad handled himself? >> i think people feel sorry for michael and they are starting to understand what michael and la toya have said over the years of what was going on in that house. it seemed unreal but now it is very real. >> larry: jim, they are going to make a lot of money. >> the sad truth is there is no one spending the money. so it is all income. it is sad but it is riveting. every night you say no more and then you are here. >> larry: i'm here. i fight it, but i lose. thanks, roger. roger friedman and jim moret, chief correspondent for "inside