and the larry king cardiac foundation. look for that cd when it comes out as well. congratulations. thanks for coming. you were great tonight. shawn, nice seeing you. i'll see you around. keep in touch. okay, yeah, maybe we'll talk. that's it for tonight's "larry king live." "ac 360" starts right now. larry, thanks. tonight in cities across the nation, debate over health care reform is starting to resemble a bar room brawl. check out pictures from a town hall meeting in tampa yesterday. an overflow crowd turning angry and aggressive. tampa is not alone with a scene like this. across the country lawmakers are met with shouting, shoving in your face rudeness and not a whole heck of a lot of talking or debates. so what is going on here? who is showing up at these events? is their anger real or a page out of a political playbook? could it maybe be a little bit of both? we're going to look beyond the finger pointing, cut through the noise. which there is plenty. we want to let you see and hear for yourself what we're talking

about. here's gary tuchman "uncovering america." >> reporter: is it democracy? demagoguery? or both? congressional town hall meetings during august recess used to be rather sleepy affairs. not anymore. there are images of president obama with a mustache like hitler's or looking like the joker. and also elected representatives hung in effigy. democratic senators like pennsylvania's arlen specter -- >> medicare and social security -- >> reporter: and missouri's claire mccaskill are hearing it from extremely unhappy americans who don't like the idea of health care reform. >> same plan they're asking us to be -- >> reporter: people have been arrested. others have suffered minor injuries with pushing and shoving. democrats like florida's kathy castor have barely been able to get in a word edgewise. at her meeting, reform opponents

were seething because hundreds of them were stuck outside the town hall because they couldn't sit in the room. protesters held signs on the other side of the window. the congresswoman had to be hustled out. in texas, congressman lloyd doggett tried to talk. >> you voted against -- >> reporter: he, too, was drowned out. one protester used his artisan reach to pick the congressman in a rather unsavory way. >> the crowd certainly was angry. i suppose some might have had a negative reaction to the poster that said lloyd doggett, traitor to texas, devil to all people. >> reporter: how did it come to this? depends on who you ask. the democratic national committee says these confrontations are orchestrated by the republican party. the democrats have released this web video. >> they've lost the confidence of the american people. now desperate republicans and well-funded allies are organizing angry mobs like they did during the election. >> reporter: the word mob is greatly insulting to the folks on the other side of the argument. many of the participants say

they are simply exercising their rights. a pennsylvanian who attended a town hall hosted by arlen specter and health and human services secretary kathleen sebelius. >> i feel like my constitutional rights are being taken away from me right before my eyes. i don't like the direction we're going. they're taking away our freedom of speech. the silent majority is fed up with it. >> reporter: now liberal advocacy group moveon.org has sent out an e-mail to supporters saying they have a plan, quote, to fight back against these radical right wingers. the group is raising hundreds of thousands of dollars in donations. it's not only the weather that's hot in august, now the political temperature is broiling, too. gary tuchman, cnn, new york. >> just a short time ago we learned senator claire mccaskill, you saw one of her events in gary piece, planned to hold a town hall meeting in missouri on tuesday. that now has been canceled. the school district where it was to be held was worried about security. we want to dig deeper with one of the people working hard and sending millions to discredit president obama's health care

reform plan. rick scott is chairman of conservatives for patient's rights. he's also a former hospital chief executive. he helped build the columbia hca into the biggest health care company in the world. ousted by his own board in 1997 during a major health care fraud scandal. his former company pleaded guilty. paid $1.7 billion to settle charges including overbilling state and federal health programs. rick scott joins us tonight. great to have you in the studio with us. you mentioned when you came in here, you said, have you seen this tape? they're yelling like crazy. they're not getting much accomplished. that's the main question. the main question i have. i look at this and i say, it makes sense to come with your question and challenge your lawmakers. you're the constituent. what do you achieve when you stand up and yell? >> what they ought to be doing, there ought to be a forum you can ask questions. ask a question and hopefully get a response. people need to be civil about it. it needs to be organized. they ought to have the town hall meetings. >> we're being told, too, from lawmakers and people who are there, look, we're trying to answer questions. every time we try to answer a

question, there's somebody who stands up. there have been things like "tyranny," yelled, things like "no," yelled. you don't support the president's plan for health care reform. a lot of the people don't either. if you were giving them advice and helping to rally them on their side, what's your advice to them? >> what i tell everybody, whatever you believe. whether you believe in the uk or canadian government health care or you don't, show up, learn the bill -- first off, get educated. learn the bill and show up and ask your questions and let your congressman or senator -- not just go to town hall meetings, write them letters, call them. show up at meetings and ask questions. you have to do it in a civilized manner. the difference between this and other things is this is really important to people. health care is the most important thing. so you have seniors, they are showing up because they say, how can you cut $400 billion out of medicare and not impact me? how can you do it? you have small business owners that say how can i afford 8% of wages for health benefits? i can't do it.

i'm struggling. >> there's a lot of misinformation out there which is of course what the town halls are set to help people with. to help them understand. let's be honest, there isn't an official bill at this point before congress. that's the beauty of town hall meetings. learn from your constituents what their concerns are. again, i have to go back to this. i know that you're helping to fuel this. because you don't want to see the health care reform, parts of which the president has proposed you don't like. but if this is what's coming out, how is that helping anybody's case, yours included? >> well, we want health care reform. what we want is health care reform that's good for patients. there are bills. i mean, there's the house bill out. there's the health committee bill out. there are bills out. people are starting to see what's happening. the person said he would like a government insurance plan. there are a lot of people concerned about how that's going to impact their health care. they're showing up to say, tell me how this is going to work? that's my understanding. >> are they saying that, though? i see people in these videos showing up saying things like, this is turning into socialized medicine or you just said,

sort of implying that any plan is going to be out there is all of a sudden going to turn the u.s. health care system into one like uk or one like canada. i think lawmakers have been very clear in trying to say we're not doing what other countries are doing. we want to take your ideas and concerns and figure out how this can work best for americans. >> we are already in the stimulus bill. we have a thorough coordinating council, similar to the uk. 10, 11 years later, puts a value on your life. that's scary to people. that's already passed. that's already passed. health care i.t. has passed. they're going to know your medical records. that's scaring people. >> you read some things need change in health care. >> absolutely. the first thing we did, we have four pillars. one, choice. you want to have the right to choose your doctor and choose your insurance plan. two, competition. you ought to know what things cost and insurance companies are to sell across state lines. more competition. >> i need to come back to these tactics. you keep coming out and saying you don't get the yelling either.

do you support the organization of getting people out there? essentially what we're seeing. if you support that, but you don't -- i'm just -- >> absolutely. i think people ought to show up. i think they ought to learn the bills, show up and ask questions. you have to do it in a civilized manner so you have a real -- >> you're reaching out to groups like the 912 project in tampa? we had a representative on from that earlier tonight on cnn. she said her problem is like she's feeling like she's not being heard. she's admitting they're going out there and they're yelling. would you reach out to people like that? >> all we've done on our website, we put up all the town halls. what we've suggested to everybody is show up. other than that we don't run a grassroots organization that says, you know, go, here's 50 people that show up at this meeting. we don't do that. >> you don't try to organize people to come to town hall meetings? >> we try to get people to show up. we don't have an organization at the grassroots level that does that. >> to be clear, too, concern is one thing. there has been a lot of talk

some of this is being insighted by people who stand to benefit from people who may have ties to health care industry who would benefit from reform proposals being defeated at this point. >> i don't know about that. >> you wouldn't benefit from that at all? >> no. i have an investment. the only investment i have in health care is a walk-in doctor's office company. we take care of insured and uninsured patients. we'll do fine either way. >> okay. thanks for being here, scott. appreciate it. ahead, we're going to talk to more about this. we want to know if you've been to town halls when it comes to health care. let us know what you think, join the live chat happening now at ac360.com. still to come on the program, more on the backlash lawmakers are coming face to face with on their summer recess. the noise as you saw in those videos is deafening. we're going to find a quiet zone to sort out what's going on with the help of david gergen. also ahead, close up why texting behind the wheel is at least as dangerous as driving while drunk. if you thunk you're the exception to this rule, that's

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levelheaded to help sort through all of this than our own senior political analyst, david gergen. our voice of reason, david. >> i'm not sure about that, erica, but thank you. >> i'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt. >> it's a big doubt. since the early days of the republic we've had protests in the public whether against higher taxes, war, discrimination. any number of injustices people have felt. our politics have been ruckus. they've been boisterous. they've been full of sound and fury. i must say i think this has become very offensive. what's happening at these town halls. it's one thing to have people show up, ask questions, ask hard questions and to hold up signs. that's their first amendment right. freedom of speech. they're denying the right of others to exercise their freedom of speech. to hear the members of congress to ask the questions and get answers. it seems to me the issue here is not what's the white house doing but where are -- where is the republican leadership on this

question? >> meaning you feel things should be leading the opposition, not letting brawls break out at town hall meetings? >> absolutely. you recall that during the campaign, hard-hitting campaign, hard-hitting campaign, there are sometimes at mccain rallies and often at palin -- more often at palin rallies. you remember people, there was a lot of anger expressed there against the democratic ticket and really nasty things were said, you know, like kill him. you remember that? eventually, john mccain spoke out against it. it was the right thing to do. he helped to quell that. it does seem to me now it's up to the republicans, the conservatives to say -- and i think mr. scott had the right point, this needs to be civil. if they're going to help stir people up, that's fine. they need to take responsibility for the people showing up and say, we've got a hand in this. we want to do this in a civil way. >> is there -- but is there something more to this? is there something more to this

than just i'm opposed to health care reform or i'm opposed to some of the ideas that i've heard or some of the things i think i understand? it seems to be a fairly large, vocal opposition. >> yes, there is. i think it has roots in the campaign. it has roots in a group of people who do feel aggrieved, feel the country is on the wrong tracks. unhappy with the election of barack obama. we saw it in those rallies. i think we saw it in the anti-tax, the t.e.a. parties earlier this year. we've seen it, perhaps, a strain of this in the berther question is really the question of legitimacy of barack obama. i don't see these health care protesters as racist. paul krugman was trying to suggest that today in his column in "the new york times." health care does go deep with people in this country. it's a very fundamental issue. this touches a raw nerve. i do think there's a relationship that goes back to some of the anger we've seen over the last year. >> you mentioned earlier that

the republicans need to do more to speak out. peggy noonan in the "wall street journal" called the democratic response stunningly crude. specific reference to things said by speaker pelosi. there is also criticism when it comes to the democrats. we called a number of lawmakers this afternoon and tonight and not one of them would agree to come on this show and talk to us about why they were canceling town hall meetings. how they felt about these brawls. they wouldn't discuss it. do the democrats need to step up a little bit too on their side? >> exactly. senator mccaskill did a few days ago. more of them need to step up. i don't know why people feel intimidated by this sort of stuff on either side, whether it's republicans or democrats. this is -- this is very discouraging for people who want to see the democracy work. we've had two presidents in a row now, george w. bush and barack obama, come to washington and promise to change, make this our discourse.

make it more civil. it just gets worse. we saw last night, erica, in the "200 day report card." . there is a tremendous polarization taking place that equals that of what we saw under george w. bush. there's anger growing on both ends of the spectrum at the other end. that makes governing very hard. the real question facing us is as people, are we self-governing people or not? can we face the large challenges we have as a country? and health care is clearly one of them. i think this is putting democracy to a real test and leadership on both sides, leaders on both sides need to step up and put an end to the disruptive kind of brawling, physically violent sessions. claire mccaskill had to cancel one next week because of fear of violence. >> interesting to see what happens as the recess and town halls continue or not. depending whether or not they're canceled. just the beginning i have a feeling. david gergen, always a pleasure. thank you. >> thank you, erica. let's put the brawls over

health care reform aside for just a moment and try something here. let's look at actual facts. let's take a look at what is on the table at this point in the house and the senate. who better than ali velshi to join us now with the "raw politics. a lot of the anger we've seen in the town hall meetings is over the idea of a public insurance plan. the word socialism gets thrown around there. we're compared to governments in europe, canada. critics say it's essentially a government takeover of the health care system. house democrats who support the idea don't seem to agree to make it work. give us an idea. what are the real proposals for public insurance? why is it unpopular? >> because it's unfamiliar. because it does have those overtones of socialism. that's not necessarily true. you're absolutely right about one thing. democrats are having trouble agreeing on what that is. republicans are having an easier time agreeing they don't want the public option. there's more than one thing when we talk about a public option. let's take a look at what it is. the first option is a publicly funded insurance system that basically deals with -- remember this. there are up to 50 million

americans who are not properly insured right now. this wouldn't take care of all of them. basically it would be a federally funded insurance program that would compete with privately funded insurance programs. i think this talk about how it's going to take away the insurance people have, it doesn't make sense. that's not on the table at all. the other proposal the democrats have is a coop type of insurance. a cooperative that is not necessarily funded by the government. it's funded by its members. it would get seed money by the government. one of the problems is we don't know how many people would participate in this programs. it's hard to do the actuarial science to figure out whether it would cost more or less. i'm fascinated by people who are yelling and not letting others speak on this thing because there's so much information we actually have to have. this is a very, very broad strokes the two public options. it would not be all of the program, by the way. it would be part of health care reform, erica. >> that's one part of it. the other part, of course, is the kroft, ali. the budget office saying this is going to add $1 trillion over ten years to the national deficit. how do you pay for something like this? >> there are two problems when it comes to cost.

the first is health care costs, themselves. put insurance aside for a second. health care costs are escalating. we have to get those under control. the second one is the cost of insuring everyone. this is really reason to be concerned. this is a big deal. the congressional budget office estimates about $1 trillion. how do you pay for this? hopefully you try to reduce costs of health care. that's one thing. number two, a surtax. a tax on top of income tax for the highest 1.2% of earners in the country. basically if you're in that top category you pay extra money. that's another way we can think about doing it. the next way is to tax some health insurance policies. in other words, tax the health insurers. critics say that would pass the tax on to those people who are insured. that's another proposal in the works. finally, providing either incentives for employers. typically that means employers who bring in more than half a million dollars a year or have more than 25 employees. incentives for them to provide

insurance for their workers or penalties for those who don't. pay or play. if you don't insure your staff you have to pay a penalty. basically a tax to the government. those are some of the things that are in the works. one thing i need to correct rick said earlier. we talked about insurance records and i.t. and how they're going to have all your information. that's a tax-saving measure put into the stimulus to allow medical records to be electronically stored. that is something almost universally agreed upon that is going to save money. i think that was a bit of a misrepresentation. erica? >> always appreciate you clearing it up. thanks. just ahead on 360, major new legal development in the drew peterson murder case. what his lawyers are doing to silence his late wife's so-called words from the grave. plus, is charles manson really having a grand old time behind bars? 40 years after the killing spree that put him there? wait until you hear what a former prison employee has to say. (announcer) you can make a bigger difference in the world. you can make a positive change in your career.

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still ahead, charles manson 40 years after his notorious killings spree. a look at what his life is like behind bars and if he could soon be paroled. gary tuchman with a "360" news and business bulletin. a matriarch of the kennedy clan in critical but stable condition tonight. family spokesman says 88-year-old eunice kennedy shriver surrounded by loved ones at the massachusetts hospital where she's been treated. sister of john f. kennedy, bobby kennedy and senator ted kennedy best known for starting the special olympics.

she is also the mother of california's first lady, maria shriver. a deadly day in iraq. at least 42 people killed. 154 wounded in five separate attacks. today the shiite religious holiday and four out of the five attacks targeted shiites. a new job report out today with some encouraging news. unemployment rate falling to 9.4% in july. down for the first time since april 2008, 15 months. the white house calling it, quote, the least bad report that we've had in a year. a lighter moment from secretary of state hillary clinton africa trip. at a gala dinner in nairobi mrs. clinton got down on the dancefloor. looks like she was having fun there in kenya. what a week. started with bill clinton in north korea, ends with hillary clinton doing a jig. >> they'll have a lot to catch up on when they're both in the same country. >> absolutely. a lot to talk about. >> gary, thanks. still ahead, texting while driving. you probably heard about the new study revealing how dangerous it really is. we talked about it here on "360." tonight we're going to show you how bad it can be.

also ahead, drew peterson's third wife feared he might kill her. now, five years after she was found dead, could her testimony from beyond the grave help convict him? his legal team is planning a major offensive. we have the exclusive details tonight. ♪ (announcer) introducing new tums dual action. this tums goes to work in seconds and lasts for hours. all day or night. new tums dual action. bring it on.

tonight as drew peterson sits in a jail cell awaiting trial on charges he murdered his third wife, kathleen savio, we're learning his defense team has big plans on monday hoping to deliver a fatal blow to the prosecution's case. kathleen savio was found dead in her bathtub in 2004. originally ruled an accidental drowning, her death was later classified as a homicide after her body was exhumed in late 2007 and additional autopsies were performed. savio reportedly made several comments if anything happened to her he was probably behind it. before peterson was arrested the former illinois cop, crazy attention, parading in front of the cameras, making jokes, clearly enjoying the spotlight. >> what do you get when you

cross the media with a pig? what do you get? you get nothing because there's some things a pig won't do. >> peterson who was a suspect in the disappearance of his fourth wife, stacey, clim claims he is innocent in his third wife's death. on monday his attorneys will file a motion asking the court to throw out the statements savio made implicating peterson. in exclusive to "360," lisa bloom has seen a draft of that brief. we want to speak to the sister of kathleen savio. she joins us along with her attorney, john kelly. good to have both of you with us. >> hi, erica, how are you? >> i'm doing all right. i appreciate you taking the time to talk to us about this. i'm sure it doesn't get easier no matter how much time passed. some evidence drew peterson and his attorney would like to have thrown out or made inadmissible in court are things you say your sister kathleen said to you about drew peterson. what are those statements?

>> she told me she would never live for the divorce settlement that drew was going to kill her. she would never live. and if anything did happen, he did it and to please take care of her children. >> when she told you those things, what was your first thought? did you think, oh, kathleen, come down, you're going through a divorce. obviously it's a tough time. >> yeah, i'm like, you know, you really don't believe someone would actually go so far as to kill him. i knew drew was lethal. i knew he had been physically abusing her and black eyes and all that. you never really believe someone would go so far for money. you know, i tried to make her feel better but she was very, very insistent that i say, you know, say she's -- anna, say the words. tell me you will promise to take care of my children, make sure they're healthy, they get their education, they're happy. say it in those words. she wanted me to hear it. she was very upset.

she knew and she said, please make sure you take care of them first. no matter what, my kids come first and they get -- everything i have goes to them 50/50. >> she made sure her life insurance policy did go to them? >> she changed -- she had a very large million-dollar life insurance policy. there was more than one. the one big one that drew had been beneficiary on. she told me at the time that she believed he did not know she changed the beneficiary. she made the boys 50/50 beneficiaries on that policy. where for the longest time drew had been the beneficiary. she changed it and that's when she told me, i changed the beneficiaries. i want to make sure the kids get everything. >> i know you haven't been able to have much contact with your nephews, with her children. take me back to the statements, again, if you could. how many times did she say these things to you and over what period of time? >> all the time. oh, all the time. especially when the divorce hit, toward the end.

before the divorce -- or before the divorce, you know, the divorce was filed and drew had moved out. she was trying to save the marriage. after the divorce had -- she kept telling me, she goes, you know, drew's lethal. she goes, i'm terrified of him. he's told me on many occasions he's going to kill me. he will never let me have the children. over and over. every time i saw her she would be terrified. she used to call me up on her cell phone and go, anna, you're going to think i'm crazy but somebody's following me. i'm like, who is it? she goes, i don't know. said, is it true? she was like, no, i don't know. all the time this is what happened. she'd be going to school or work or whatever. most people were thinking she was crazy. i believed her and i kept telling her, please move in with me. >> it will be interesting to see what happens on monday and how this goes once this brief is filed. which i mentioned we're going to learn a little bit more from lisa bloom. john, a quick question for you. if for some reason this evidence is thrown out, if the criminal trial doesn't go the way that you and anna would like it to,

are you planning to try this case in civil court eventually? >> well, sure. that's, you know, we're queued up. if for some reason the prosecution is not successful, we anticipate they wail be. if not it would be another case like simple we try the wrongful death action. >> we will continue to follow it. >> that would be a whole different ball game, erica. >> as to whether or not the testimony would be admissible? >> well, no, the whole thing. you'd have a lower burden of proof. would be the preponderance of the evidence. be you don't need an unanimous jury. the most important thing in a civil case i would be able to depose mr. peterson and he'd have to take a stand. he can't avoid testifying and i'd have the opportunity to cross examine him at trial. >> a lot of things that will be coming up in the near future. we'll continue to follow it. anna doman and john kelly. thanks for being with us tonight. >> thank you, erica. >> thank you, erica. we want to talk about this development in the peterson murder case. as we told you the defense team

will file a brief on monday claiming so-called beyond the grave statements kathleen savio made be ruled inadmissible. things like her sister anna said she said to her. cnn legal analyst lisa bloom had an exclusive look at the preliminary draft of the motion. lisa joins us now. lisa, what did you see in that document? >> erica, this is a detailed, thorough, powerful, one-two constitutional punch on the biggest issue in the case, whether kathleen's statements should come in. the arguments are number one, this is an ex-post facto law. there was a a law, called drew's law, changing the rules of evidence, allowing in what would be hearsay evidence from kathleen savio into the trial. the defense says this is an ex-post facto law. unconstitutional under the federal constitution to target a particular case to change the rules of evidence in the middle of the game. the second argument is under the confrontation clause of the sixth amendment of the u.s. constitution that drew peterson like everybody else has the right to confront and cross examine witnesses against him.

allowing in this kind of statement from somebody, even if she's a murder victim and can't come to testify means he can't cross examine her and therefore that would be unconstitutional. i have to tell you, i think it is a strong motion on a gut level, moral level. i think most people would like to see this evidence come in at trial. the u.s. constitution is pretty clear. and the case to the constitution is pretty clear. we haven't seen the prosecution's response. the prosecution hasn't seen this brief yet. they may have good arguments in response. this is going to be the biggest legal battle in the case. erica, if the defense wins on this motion, i understand the prosecution will immediately take it up on appeal. drew peterson would then be out of jail during the time of that appeal. that would be a big win for him. >> if for some reason this is ruled inadmissible, how much of a case does the prosecution have if they continue forward with this? >> in my opinion this is the strongest evidence in the case. kathleen's statements if anything happens to me, there's

no dna evidence linking drew peterson to this crime. there's no forensic evidence. on the weekend kathleen savio died, drew peterson has alibi witnesses, family members who say he was with them. we don't know what the prosecution's theory of the case is. we know kathleen savio drowned. how did drew peterson get in the house? how did he do it? there was no sign of a struggle. this is a tough case for the prosecution in my view, even with these statements from kathleen savio. without these statements it's a real hard case. >> in the autopsy, the private autopsy the family ordered from michael baden, he said some of the wounds showed signs of a struggle. unfortunately i have to leave it there. told we're out of time. lisa bloom, always appreciate it. thank you for sharing this with us tonight. good to have you here before it's filed on monday morning. join the live chat happening now at ac360.com. up next, texting behind the wheel. another state issuing a ban on it. millions of people do it every day. do they really understand, though, the danger? tonight we're going to show you how a split-second of texting can lead to tragedy.

a bit later, charles manson in prison from his voodoo dolls made in his cell to the dozens of infractions. new centrum silver ultra men's. a complete multivitamin for men over 50. it has antiodants and vitamin d... to support your prostate and colon. new centrum silver ultra men's.

it's tough to find anyone who defends drinking and driving. millions of americans continue to engage in far riskier behavior on the road without pa second thought. perfect example? texting. a new study finds truck drivers who text behind the wheels are 23 times more likely to get in a crash. on thursday illinois became the 17th state to ban texting while driving. it is also illegal in the district of columbia. that's where tom foreman is for the "keeping them honest" demonstration that will hopefully make you think twice

about texting while driving. >> erica, we had a strong response for this demonstration of these findings out of virginia tech that we aired earlier. with this news, we wanted to show it to you again. the tech researchers told me the average person, for example, loading a cd into a car takes his or her eyes off of the road for a second and a half. look at this. we went out and got into an empty parking lot in maryland. got up to 25 miles an hour at that cone. took that time. second and a half later, looked up and stopped the car. this is about where i stopped, getting on the brake as quickly as i could. >> which -- to a lot of people probably doesn't seem terribly bad. but when you bring a phone into the equation, it's far different picture? >> then it becomes very, very different. because dialing a phone, researchers say, takes your eyes away for about three seconds. so, same test. look at this. same speed. i get up here. this is where we begin. i take it off three seconds. i go past the cone from earlier and now look where i wind up stopping when i look up and stop. so it's a considerable distance

further than it was. going to stop it for a second. i'll take it back so you can see precisely where i passed. this is where i wound up. way back there is where i passed the earlier cones. twice far down the way when i'm trying to dial the number. 12k3w4r that whole way you're driving with your eyes off the road, essentially. when you are talking about the act of dialing, it's not necessarily how long it takes to make the whole call, it's how long you take your eyes off the road one time to look down. >> they measured how long you flicked your eyes off the road. it may not be one time. to get that done, you may do it repeatedly. this is the longest single period of time we might do it which brings us to the question of texting which they say can take the driver's eyes off the road for almost five seconds at a stretch. so watch this. this time -- this is my starting point. i shoot right past my earlier points while i'm texting here for 4.6 seconds. there's the first point. there's the second one. finally i come to a stop way

down here. i want you to look at that again as we did before. here's where i am. look at how far i went compared to the point where i had been dialing and particularly the point way back here where i was putting in a cd. this is really a substantial distance to cover in that amount of time. remember, this is only 25 miles an hour. at highway speeds, the researchers say i could easily come more than the distance of a football field and then some, essentially driving blind. erica? >> not hard to see why it would be 23 times more likely to get into a crash while you're texting. tom, thanks. up next on "360," the face of evil. charles manson, older but just as controlling as ever. we'll tell you what he's been up to behind bars. you'll meet one woman who moved to be near his prison. just to be close to mansens. the death of a pitchman. was it his heart that killed was it his heart that killed billy mays? or could he have been playing with fire? dangerous plaque that can build up

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charles manson has spent the last 40 years inside a california prison. as we approach the anniversary of the killing spree he led, it's clear manson may be exactly where he wants to be. a former prison employee said the madman is having a great time behind bars. as you'll hear, still taking pleasure in tormenting others. with tonight's "crime and punishment report," here's ted rowlands. >> reporter: in 1971 charles manson was sent to california's death row at san quentin prison. >> aren't we all born to die? >> reporter: manson was transferred out of san quentin and his sentence was reduced to life with possible parole when california briefly abolished the

death penalty. after bouncing around between several different facilities, charles manson ended up here at the corcoran state prison in central california, been here for 20 years. he's housed in a special unit on the inside of the prison. you can't see it from here. basically it's just on the other side of where you can see those prisoners exercising. over the years, manson has been cited for more than 100 disciplinary actions in prison. including threatening peace officers, possession of weapons, illegal business dealings and failure to maintain grooming standards all in the past decade. >> he's been an absolute, absolutely horrible prisoner in terms of disciplinary violations. >> reporter: he has made friends. ed george is one of them, a former prison employee and co-authors a book about manson called "taming the beast." george says manson has a unique ability to get close to people who may be able to help him and get under the skin of others.

>> the family would send him socks. different colored socks. that was one of the items they could send him. he would unravel them and make dolls out of them. voodoo dolls. he would tell you going down the cell, the tier and looking at him, he'd say this is you. he'd have a pin and stick it in you. >> reporter: according to prison officials manson receives lots of mail and over the years has had a steady stream of visitors. one of them is this 21-year-old woman named star who says she first wrote to manson at 16 living in illinois. >> i thought, man, this guy's right on. you know? he's truthful. >> reporter: star says she moved to the prison to be close to manson. >> charlie is wise and he sees what's going on in the world. >> reporter: star claims she's drawn to manson because of his views on the environment, which has been one of his reoccurring themes over the past 40 years. >> this music, the atwa. >> charlie is all about atwa.

which is air, trees, water, animals. >> reporter: manson's day-to-day life according to ed george and others consists of playing guitar, reading, writing letters and spending tile on the phone. his next parole hearing set for 2012. according to george, charles manson has said he would be perfectly happy to spend the rest of his life behind bars. most people believe he probably will. ted rowlands, cnn, corcoran, california. "digging deeper," now. one of the prosecutors who tried the manson killers and believes none of them should be released from prison. good to have you with us tonight. >> thanks for inviting me. >> absolutely. when you hear the accounts of what charles manson's life is in prison these days, writing letters, fan mail, playing his guitar, what do you think of that? are you surprised at all? >> not at all.

prison has been his life. the last time he was in prison before the tate/labianca murders, he was in federal prison here in los angeles. when it came time to parole him, he told the authorities he did not want to leave prison. he wanted to spend the rest of his life in prison. they literally had to take him to the front of the prison and boot him out. he has spent basically all of his life since he was 8 years old either in reform schools, camps, county, state or federal prisons. and he is not having a bad time at all in prison. he gets on the average of four fan letters a day and people will write letters and they'll get a response and they'll think, oh, this is great. i got a response from charles manson. this is going to be worth something. manson is such a con he passes the letters out to other prisoners and has them act as correspondent secretary and answers the letter. he doesn't care what they write. >> interesting. we just heard in that piece from ted rowlands the l.a. county

d.a. called manson an absolutely horrible prisoner. when it comes to the manson family members, you say they're model prisoners. you don't ever want to see any of them released. why is that? >> this is a very unusual case and you can't apply regular standards in other murder cases to this. these people wanted to start a race war. they killed seven innocent people. they didn't even know, they had nothing against. they wanted to blame the murders on blacks. manson wasn't along on the first night of murders but we did go along on the labianca murders. he stole rosemary labianca's wallet and had it placed in a gas station in what he thought was a black area because he wanted a black person to find the wallet and use her credit card and get blamed for the murders. these people are fine in prison. i commend them for doing well

and they can help other prisoners. you can't predict what they're going to do on the outside. these are people -- they're not hippies. they hated hippies. when they joined the family, a lot of hippies heard manson, what he was saying and they got away from him as fast as possible because what he was saying was adolf hitler was his hero for what he did to jews in world war ii. manson was a racist. would not allow minorities in the family and would tell different people who could get together and have babies. these killers, something resonated within them and they stayed. some of them were bright. leslie van houten has 121 i.q, puts her in the top 5% of people in the u.s. she admitted under my cross-examination it took her two days whether or not she could commit murder and she made that decision before manson or anyone else asked her.

>> i know you've over the years you have gone to a number of the parole hearings in california to argue against parole. for many of the manson family members. you definitely have a unique insight into this case. we appreciate you taking time to speak to us tonight. thanks. >> thank you very much. from manson to the moonwalk. 1969 was full of historic and horrific moments. read about all of them, the bad and of course many of the good at ac360.com. ahead, a 360 follow for you. what killed tv pitchman billy mays? shocking details just revealed. an incredible sight you really have to see. is it too good to be true? we'll investigate. five co-workers are working from the road using a mifi, a mobile hotspot that provides up to five shared wifi connections. two are downloading the final final revised final presentation. - one just got an e-mail. - what?! - huh? - it's being revised again. @i the co-pilot is on mapquest. - ( rock music playing ) - and tom is streaming meeting psych-up music from meltedmetal.com. that's happening now with the new mifi from sprint,

the mobile hotspot that fits in your pocket. sprint. the now network. deaf, hard of hearing and people with speech disabilities access www.sprintrelay.com. it was tough news to hear. everything changed. i didn't know what to do. right about then, our doctor mentioned the exelon patch. he said it releases medicine continuously for 24 hours. he said it could help with her cognition which includes things like memory, reasoning, communicating and understanding. (announcer) the most common side effects of exelon patch are nausea, vomiting and diarrhea. the likelihood and severity of these side effects may increase as the dose increases. patients may experience loss of appetite or weight. patients who weigh less than 110 pounds may experience more side effects. people at risk for stomach ulcers or who take certain other medicine should talk to their doctor because serious stomach problems, such as bleeding may worsen. mom's diagnosis was hard to hear, but there's something i can do.

(announcer) visit exelonpatch.com for free caregiving resources. let's get you caught up on the day's other stories. gary tuchman joining us again with the 360 bulletin tonight. gary? >> erica, 360 follow. florida officials say tv pitchman billy mays had cocaine in his system when he died. medical examiner revealing today the drug contributed to the heart disease that killed mays in june. his family is calling the

finding speculative and is considering getting an independent review of the toxicology results. the gunman who killed three women in a shooting spree at pittsburgh area gym this week got gun equipment from online weapons dealer. the dealer provided merchandise to the virginia tech and northern illinois university shooters. company based in wisconsin runs dozens of websites selling firearms. moving out. south carolina governor mark stanford has the official residence to himself. his wife and four sons packing up and leaving today and will live at the family home in sullivan's island near charleston. in june stanford admitted to an affair with an argentinian journalist. trekkies unite. thousands gathered for the annual star trek convention in las vegas. fans of the tv and movie franchise will not be disappointed. the stars will be there. >> i wonder if william shatner will be reciting any of his poetry. >> that's a good question. i wonder how often we'll see the

star trek salute. can you do that, erica? >> i can. >> i cannot do -- i can hold my hands to do it. >> i can do it with two hands, gary tuchman. >> that's like a genetic thing and i've never been able to do it. >> i'll get you superglue. next, the "shot" of the day. a daredevil's jump. we'll show you how it ends. a little later, a physical face-off over health care. we're taking you to the front lines of the battle.

for tonight's "shot," a friday twofer. two incredible clips from none other than the worldwide web. they look real, but because we found them on the internet, are they? we're going to let you be the

judge. first up the daredevil and the water slide. that's one heck of a slip and slide. this shows what appears to be a stuntman sliding down a slippery and massive ramp. wow. flying a few hundred feet into a shallow pool of water. >> that's not real. >> come on, gary tuchman. that was the focus of what i did on my summer vacation essay, wasn't it? it was a video essay? >> i tried that myself and missed the pool. i thought that was impossible. >> not so sure that was real. >> evel knievel. >> that guy would die, i think. a lot of folks say it's computer generated. we'll let you be a judge. here's the next one. two girls walking through a river. right? here it comes. la, la, la, la, la. there they go. one of the girls bends down not because she lost her tube. nope, look, oh. can we see what she pulls up? oh, yeah, i just found a large fish and i'm going to carry him like my teddy bear. what do you think, gary, real? >> why is she picking up fish in the water whether it's real or not? >> the fish is there. that fish would have flipped out.

>> helps to have a pole and bait. >> what's your take? >> i think they're both fake but they're cute. we'll think about it over the weekend. ahead at the top of the hour, shouting, shoving, handcuffs and more. the debate over health care reform turning uglier this week. battle was supposed to be used as a metaphor, right? how did it turn into an actual brawl? (announcer) you can make a bigger difference in the world. you can make a positive change in your career. you can make a greater contribution to the greater good. and you can start today, by earning your degree online... at walden university. where advanced degrees advance the quality of life.