that's it for us tonight. all for our show. we will see you back here tomorrow night. same time, same place. right now "larry king live." >> larry: elizabeth edwards debating health care reform for the first time and squares off on life and death issues with the former hhs secretary tommy thompson. is president obama's plan in critical condition? a health care reform debate exclusive. then bill cosby speaks out. explaining why he believeses a well-schooled kid saved him money. plus, what's really out there? british government releases official ufo files. "newsweek" reports nasa is searching for aliens. if they do exist how do we make contact? all next on "larry king live."

two extraordinary lifted americans join us to discuss the health care question. elizabeth edwards. focusing on health care issues. she is the wife of the former democratic vice presidential candidate john edwards and "new york times" best-selling author of resilience. and madison, wisconsin, tommy thompson who is the secretary of health and human services under president george w. bush and as the former republican governor of wisconsin. elizabeth, in an interview last month, you said you thought that substantial -- substantive health care reform would be enacted. do you stand by that? >> i still do. incredibly optimistic and i think the american people are still in favor of health care reform despite the assault they had of a lot of hyperbole and miss statements and people know

in their real lives that they need -- they are going to need change. need change. in health care. nationally and in their own communities and in their own families. >> larry: in an interview with the ceo of better health, in february, you said you can bet your bottom dollar that the health care system that we know today is going to be changed so considerably that i doubt you would recognize it a year from now. do you stand by that? >> i stand by it because it already has many changes. in the stimulus backage there was a comparative equivalent, $20 billion set aside for electronic medical records. there's a lot of other projects that have been already passed that's going to transform health care in the future. the truth of the matter is, i think the question you are xwetding at is what about the barack obama legislation and what the democrats are doing in congress.

i think the democrats are going to have a very difficult time passing a comprehensive bill unless they want to bring in the republicans and scale back and have a really comprehensive bipartisan bill. that's what i'm hoping they will. because i believe that elizabeth and i both agree that there -- needs to be comprehensive health care reform in america. but the kind of comprehensive health care reform is what really is going to be the most important item. i hope that it is a bipartisan one that i think can be passed and energetically and have a great deal of support in the country. >> larry: elizabeth, can that happen without the government being involved in kind of a quasi insurance company of its own? >> can we get -- pass health care reform? we can pass health care reform without having -- what is commonly referred to as a public option. which means that to compete with your private insurers, united health care, cigna, blue

cross/blue shield, you would have the federal government offering you the opening of insuring yourself through the government plan. i think it would be a huge mistake to pass anything -- any kind of reform without -- without that public option for a lot of reasons. one is that one of the things we want to do is make certain that we are striving to 46 million americans uninsured 25 million underinsured, a way of getting reliable transparent and cost-effective accessible -- cost accessible insurance and the way do you that is make certain you are going to have this option. so far, the -- private sector has not provided it. we all know that. insurance premiums are now $15,000. next year, $18,000 may be the average. in ten years, $36,000 a year for a normal family. if we want those to be controlled we are going to have to have a public option.

>> tommy, the republicans have fought that. why? what's wrong with the public option? >> well, if you want to really ruin health care in america, have the government run it. and everything elizabeth said, i have difficulties agreeing with because of public plan is really the tantamount to saying that health care has failed in america and we are going to turn it over to the government to run and regulate. the innovations that elizabeth wants for breast cancer and i want for breast cancer in america will be short-circuited and the new kinds of innovation and medicines will be put in the back burner. there will be certainly a reduction of reimbursements and the private health insurance companies that would more likely have to be retracted and reduced. 90% of the people like their health insurance and that's going to be changed because when you put the government in and have a public plan in the government, you are going to have a shifting and even obama

says, you know, that we are going to allow people to have their same health insurance. up can't with the public plan because it is going to be a shift. and if you want comprehensive health care, public plan is going to be tantamount to having a partisan democratic plan that i think is going to fail. >> elizabeth, why is the current operation so deficient? >> well, i -- i would like -- i want to answer that. i would also like to respond. i think that what -- tommy is saying that the -- governor is saying is that -- >> tommy. >> thank you, tommy. that -- is the mistaken language we hear, public option creates a government-run program. another part of what he said, though, if you listen to it, 90% of people are happy with their insurance. we have 46 million people uninsured who would like to have insurance and have 10% unhappy with their insurance, looking

for something else. those are the people that will be moving perhaps to a public option. you are not going to see some huge shift in the -- in the number of people who -- who go to private insurance. if private insurance does a good job of innovation, tommy and i agree about that, but they don't do such a good job of keeping their administrative costs down and keeping the costs of their insurance down. when -- when -- their health executives are paid $30 billion and -- a year and we had at least two major ceos, you can be pretty sure the health insurance costs of those policy holders are going to be higher than they need to be. and so if bee can keep those administrative costs down, maybe -- maybe lit have a good effect on both. maybe the government will be required to be more innovative and insurance companies forced to keep their costs down. >> i want to have tommy respond to that right after the break. still to come, bill cosby and more of elizabeth edwards and tommy thompson right after this.

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tommy, in response, can you say the insurance companies in america are doing a dwoernful job? >> no. of course i -- i -- of course i can't. there's some a that do a wonderful job and some do a poor job. let's face it. if you put the government in here, and in which they don't have to have -- make a profit, they are going to be able to undersell any private health insurance company and -- >> larry: benefit from that. >> no, we wouldn't. if a company has -- is going to

want to keep their own health insurance, the government selling their health insurance cheaper, companies will migrate towards that and you are going to see a demise of the private health insurance industry in the country. if you want the government to run insurance, look at medicare, it is going break. medicaid, breaking most of the states because of the cost. look at social security. everything that the government really runs has not measured up. we can -- we can -- >> larry: don't you think -- the social security. >> sure people do. the truth of the matter is they are going to broke. medicare is going broke this year. we can fix the health insurance industry. i'm not saying that the health insurance companies are perfect and should not be changed. we should. we should allow for guaranteed issuance. allowing people to come in. we should be able to cover all of the items in america. do it in a competitive and free enterprise manner.

that's the way that they have bipartisanship and that's the way -- fix the health care -- >> larry: why couldn't that work, elizabeth? >> because that's what we have been trying and it hasn't worked. always seems our costs go up and up. costs have doubled since 2009 -- 2000 to 2009. the cost of our insurance has gone up 119%. more than doubled. it is causing people to file bankruptcy. 62% or 61% of the people who file bankruptcy cite medical costs as a substantial part of the reason why -- they had to file bankruptcy. it is clearly not working. we are on a track right now where we could be paying in ten years for our health care system overall $40 trillion. we have to get ahold of this. tommy knows this. we can't stay on the same path we have been on. the very idea that -- the -- if the government does haven't to make a profit, therefore, they are going to be able to underprice the insurance companies, there are plenty of

nonprofits. health net colorado has done an analysis that said it didn't make any difference whether it was profit or non-profit company. the prices they were offering to consumers was the same. all too high. and we need somebody to be able to come in and put downward pressure. federal express and ups do fine in competition with the u.s. government. >> let me get call in. orlando, florida, hello. >> caller: yes. i would like to ask tommy thompson if my premium went from $500 a month five years ago to $2500 had an month today, does he feel that's fair? >> i have to know what kind of coverage you've got, whether you changed it, who you have it insured with. i'm not saying it is fair or unfair i don't know the facts. you know, you -- this is the issue that really is affecting whether or not we are going to have health reform. i want health reform in america. and the way to do that is look

at the things that bring us together and we can reach a bipartisan thing and it is going to really help trance health care in america and health insurance. number one, let's have something to do and change the system from a disease system to a wellness system. let's do something about chronic illness. let's manage diseases. let's do something about the kinds of things like diabetes, like cancers, and so on that we can really impact and reduce the cost of health care and 75% of the cost goes into chronic illness and we can really change that by doing that. it can be done on a bipartisan. let's have the electronic medical records, both parties want that. that's another 10% to 15% we can take out of the cost, hold down health insurance and the premiums and still improve the system. let's do things about cessation of smoking. all of these things can be done on a bipartisan basis and we can fix the health care and we can reduce the costs and we can make it much more efficient. that's what needs to be done in america. >> larry: we will take a break

and be right back with elizabeth edwards and tommy thompson. don't go away. capturing the beauty of nature. sharing what i see. that's my vision. and i'm living it. everyday transitions lenses are there to help care for my sight. announcer: transitions lenses adjust to changing light to reduce glare and help protect your eyes from uv damage, so you can see better today and tomorrow. live your vision. transitions. healthy sight in every light. authentic transitions lenses are available at jc penney optical.

>> larry: we are back with elizabeth edwards and tommy thompson. debate over health care reform has gotten fierce. town halls have turned into town brawls. held by congressman barney brain. >> why do you consider the policy as obama had expressly supported this policy why are you supporting it? >> when you ask me that question, i am going to revert to my ethnic heritage and ask you your question with a question. on what planet do you spend most of your time? >> larry: elizabeth, is all of this deflecting away from the real debate? >> i think that it is. you -- you have seen the -- i think that tomorrow write would probably reject some of the language that you see used to

hype up crowds. and some of the posters you see. we don't -- we are not unplugging grandma as senator grassley said. we don't have death panels as senator kyle said. the kind of language generates an enormous amount anger and fear when we have -- as tommy and i can have reasonable discussions about the benefits or, you know, or -- from my perspective, the disadvantages of his perspective of a public option seems to be the center of the real controversy here. we agree about almost everything else. this seems to be the center. we could have a reasonable discussion but not when you use that kind of language. >> larry: tommy, would you agree? >> i think the language has gotten out of control. i think that both sides -- i think marty -- mart barney frank comes out what planet do you live on. if i was an elected official saying that to my constituents i would be upset. >> larry: the constituent just said your president was a nazi. >> well, the rhetoric is bad. i think that the elected

officials have to temper their remarks to. it is just both sides. i mean, it happens, you know, that a lot of hyperbole and a lot of accusations are going on. but the truth of the matter is that it is -- the american way. americans slun an opportunity to influence legislation. americans feel -- being crammed down their throats and they are upset about it. they are afraid of the spending and afraid of the trillion dollars more in deficits. and they feel that -- and i think rightly so, that the government is spending way too much money and we have to get it under control. i agree with elizabeth and myself. i think we need -- elizabeth and i can sit down and have a very constructive dialogue about public versus private. and i don't think we reached a -- convince each other but we can certainly come out and articulate the issues. and i think that we -- elizabeth and i can come up and i think democrats and republicans, i think that's what we should do. set aside those poison items and

get down to trying to influence a transformation of health care. cover the uninsured. fix the insurance companies. do something chronic illnesses and get a tax credit so individual par people that -- uninsured or underinsured can buy health insurance in america. we would fix this problem. >> larry: why don't both parties appoint the two of you inform sit down in a conference room and come out and with whatever you decide, that's it. we will be back with more right after this. wanti'toelake up. we decide to turn in early. we just know. announcer: finding the moment that's right for you both can take some time. that's why cialis gives men with erectile dysfunction options: 36-hour cialis or cialis for daily use. cialis for daily use is a clinically proven low-dose tablet you take every day, so you can be ready anytime the moment is right. tell your doctor about your medical condition and all medications and ask if you're healthy enough for sexual activity. don't take cialis if you take nitrates for chest pain, as this may cause an unsafe drop in blood pressure.

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>> larry: elizabeth edwards, you have breast cancer. tommy thompson, your wife and daughter both had breast cancer. for both of you, how does that affect your thinking in this? elizabeth? >> you know, a lot of people that have breast cancer come up to me and one of people that came up to me in cleveland in 2007 was a working mother. and who was -- said she was afraid for her children because she couldn't go to the doctor despite the fact she found a lum in her breast. she was whispering in my ear because she hoped that in america, you still had the power to whisper in the right person's ear and get the kind of changes you needed. it is unconscionable in a country of this wealth of working mother cannot afford to buy the health insurance that will protect her and allow her to be continue to be a good mother to her children. >> larry: one of the skis the right to help -- >> i believe we do. and i agree with elizabeth. we should have health insurance

for mothers and there are many ways to do it. a tax credit for low-income individuals to purchase health insurance, save so much more money and be the right thing to do. many new companies and innovation instead and sexually transmitted diseases can -- break the barriers. and there's companies like -- the guy asked me going from $500 to $2500 hrngs set up policies everybody can be covered and hold down costs. there's so much innovation out there, larry. that is good for breast cancer patients and individuals like my wife and daughter who have had it. like elizabeth still does. that we should be able to put the kind of dollars and research in order to do that. we can fix the system. let's not damage the system by bringing in a public plan that's going to, i think, hurt and prevent really revolutionary transformation of health care in america. >> larry: what do you think will happen, elizabeth? >> i hope that -- i -- with

tommy the whole way until the last thing he said which i think is more of the fearmongering. 14,000 americans lose their health insurance every day. and they lose it because it is too expensive. so unless we create a provider that's going to have -- cost accessible health insurance which is apparently not going to be possible with these private insurers. it is not possible today. right now they have the most motivation of all time to make certain the people are not losing their coverage. yet, they will not provide -- they will not provide a cost-efficient -- we can't do it -- i think it is -- sounds like a great idea. let's do a tax rebate. i mean, a refundable tax credit to people who -- so they can get health insurance. are we going to give families $18,000 a year to pay for their health insurance next year? that's the average cost of insurance. >> you put out -- you put out private -- put private insurance out of the competitive basis and

be down $4,000. refundable tax credit will cover that and you will be able to solve a lot of the problems. get a lot of the uninsured. the problem is -- >> that's not just realistic, tommy. >> it is, elizabeth. it is very realistic. like we did. we put drugs out for competitive bids and stabilized the drug prices. you put out the bids for all the uninsured in every state and have the states sxhoeld allow insurance companies to come in and bid on that, you will drive down the cost and put a refundable credit in for those individuals under 125% of pover zpi we can cover everybody in america. that's what you want, that's what i want and we can do it without the government running the health insurance. >> when the republicans were in charge of doing something about health care, it was -- what they did was -- just what you said. prescriptions drug been if i foreseen sxwrors what they decided was the federal government could not negotiate the lowest possible price. protected -- protected the company and to the disadvantage of the american consumers. again, we are seeing republicans

protecting the companies, insurance companies, to the disadvantage of the american consumer. >> republicans want to protect health care in america and democrats want to destroy it. if you want to call it radical rhetoric, elizabeth -- then let's fix the system. let's not destroy it. let's not have the government control health care -- people don't want -- people don't want it. >> larry: let's have both of you come back. you are both terrific. elizabeth, will you allow me just two quick personal questions? >> sure. >> larry: you were so candid in the past about the impact of your husband's problems and your relationship. how are things going? >> things are going fine. we are -- getting the children ready for a new school year. everything seems to be going pretty smoothly at my house. thanks for asking. >> larry: continued questions about the paternity factor. is there any solution there? dna tests, do you know if anything will happen? >> my expectation is that at

some point something happens and i -- i hope for the sake of this child that it happens, you know in a quiet way. >> larry: how is your health? >> pretty good. i'm still here fighting. >> larry: you are stage four, though, right? >> yes. yes. you know, the numbers don't look that optimistic but i feel good and my -- hi recent tests that show me -- in pretty good health, all things considered. >> larry: tommy, your family, how are they? >> first off, i would like to say, elizabeth we are pulling for and you praying for you. keep fighting. we think you are a great model and you are wrong on public insurance but you are right on fighting for breast cancer. my wife and daughter, thank the good lord, are doing well. and -- >> that's great. >> both working and doing great. and -- this is one thing that is a common bond. husbands and wives and children and that have -- go through

cancer. whether it be breast cancer or any other kind of cancer, we have to deal with it and we have to find a cure for it. it is ridiculous in america. that we don't have a cure for breast cancer. >> larry: thank you. >> when i was running for president, i had a motto we will cure breast cancer by the year 2015. we can do it if we set our sights to do it. >> larry: thanks both very much. elizabeth edwards and tommy thompson. we change gears. bill cosby next. thank you, guys. progress... it starts with more models than toyota or honda with an epa estimated 30 miles per gallon highway or better. next, it's a lineup of hybrids that fit the way you live, and one day, chevy volt, a car that can go up to 40 miles before it uses any gas at all. that's an american revolution.

these are our children. and we need no more cuts. we need help. >> larry: good news and bad news from the state of pennsylvania. good news, 50 state study of test results by the center on edge indication policy chose pennsylvania as the only state to see increases in student achievement in elementary, mid and high school from 2002 through 2008. the bad news. protracted and very partisan state budget impasse including a fate over public education funding might throw all of this into a turmoil. joining us from philadelphia, bill cosby. the famed actor, comedian, education activist and doctorate in education and, of course, best-selling author as well. in harrisburg, pen, our friend the governor of pennsylvania, ed rendell. what do those test results show to you, bill?

>> you -- well, it means that we have made a great improvement over the years that rent has been in office. and he will give you the mums. he sounds a lot better than i because he lived with them. the most important thing is with the improvements that we are making in the position we are in, why would anyone want to now make a cut or make cuts in something that is running towards perhaps 100% instead of 70%? >> larry: this has national implications. school systems all over the country are facing budget cuts. california is in a crisis. ed, what do you about it? it is a financial question. where does the money come from? >> well, i think we have to make choices, larry.

one of the choices we have to make is for our future. our future depends on edge indication. you know, we used to compete against delaware, west virginia, new york, new jersey, and we are competing against china, india, singapore, and those countries are just off the charts in educational advancement. we have to keep up and the good news is we have done a great job of pennsylvania and because the legislature and administration together invested over $3 billion of addition am funding on an annual basis for education. but now the crunch time rolls ruined and the republicans and senate say that no new revenue and we want to cut, cut, cut and we want to cut a billion dollars out of public education. i say that we have to make cuts and we made $2.5 billion in those cuts. we need to protect education and that means that raising reasonable revenues. getting rid of some of our sales tax exemptions as a possibility. there are a number of ways without hurting the public handling we can raise revenue. >> larry: bill, do you get what you pay for in education? the more you spend, do you get better schools, better

education, kids? >> no. we need more money. for instance, it is $4,000 per child. however, costs have gone up and costs continue to go up. you can't pay $2,500 for a brand-new car. so the important thing is that it costs $33,000 a year to keep a person in prison. well, let's look atting the facts that we know. if someone by third grade is not doing well, people who have been in prisons look at the numbers of the children not doing well and they begin to build more prisons according to children who are not doing well in third grade. so i think that 8,000 per child would do very, very well because

then had would only be spending a smaller amount on the people who would be incarcerated and we would lose those huge numbers. >> larry: let me get a break and we will come right back with bill cosby and governor ed rendell of pennsylvania. ng the n opportunity sales event, you can do both. special lease offers now available on the 2009 es 350.

>> larry: national problem, focussing on pennsylvania. reached out to pennsylvania's

majority leader and his office provided this statement. senate rechs advance ad proposal to increase public education funding by 14.1%. the governor's proposal would increase education funding even further but it would require a massive tax increase. how do you respond, ed? >> first of all, they are not telling thank you truth, larry. what they are use sing stimulus funds and they count the special education and title one money as an increase. as you know, special ed money can only be used for special students which are about 5% of the student population and in title one money can only go into schools that have the high percentage of poverty cases. 60% of the schools in pennsylvania don't even get title one money. that's number one. number two, they use the stimulus money to roll back the state level of education funding to '05, '06. when the stimulus goes away without it leave a billion dollar hole. there is no way the school drigs can make that up. they are not telling the truth, number one.

number two, every superintendent and every school board president and republican areas have said that it would be disastrous for education and we need to follow our budget which continues to invest in education. and -- it is clear. >> larry: bill, philosophically speaking, what is good teacher worth? what's education worth? couldn't we say no matter what you spend it is well spent you are educating our children. i mean, you can get out of hand with this, couldn't you? >> i don't know what you just dealt me. but -- >> larry: what i dealt you with is -- >> well, it is how you spend the money also. i me, look -- larry, politicians have used education to have people vote them into office and they have used the lottery and we are going to give you better schools and more money for education and they use that so

that there can be a state lottery. they have used it all kinds of ways and now because they don't want it, they now want to use a scare tactics to scare tactic. i'm looking at children that need better food in schools and they don't need this junk that they are being fed. i can get into that later. but that has to do with the health care. and it has to could with whether the children can think properly. and our teachers, people who come out of college, who want to be teachers, don't do that, larry, because they want to get money and become rich. and retire. they do it because they want it to children. and it is very, very important. some of the things that we are losing in our schools the way a school looks, the way a school feels, the way the books are not

right, give children a feeling that education is not important. it gives a feeling to the children that nobody cares. why should i so they become highly truant and it is very, very important. stop cutting our education money. >> larry: ed, i can make a case, there's nothing more important than educating your children. >> there isn't. but you know, a very good point. it is not just throwing money after education. one of the things we are proud of in pennsylvania is we invested in the right things. pre-kindergart pre-kindergarten, smaller class sizes, after-tutoring. it makes it's easier for kids to get up to grade level in reading and math and so you are going to targ thaet money to programs that we know work. we shouldn't just spend willy-nilly. i'm against that. as much as i'm for education funding. we have done tonight pennsylvania and the senator should be proud of what we have done because he has been a part

of it. >> larry: we are going to do a lot more on this. obviously this deserve as lot of attention. we intend to give it a lot more on "larry king live." bill cosby, governor ed rendell, the british government has released more of their previously confidential ufo files. what's that? we will find out what's in those files next. you're the colon lady! diarrhea, constipation, gas, bloating. that's me! can i tell you what a difference phillips' colon health has made? it's the probiotics. the good bacteria. that gets your colon back in balance. i'm good to go! phillips' colon health. there's no way to hide it. sir, have you been drinking tonight? if you ride drunk, you will get caught... and you will get arrested.

>> larry: have you seen this week's "newsweek"? nasa is looking for aliens. the british government unleased more of their confidential ufo files. are we closer than ever than confirm xrag terrestrial life? joining us with the latest news about space is dr. seth. a skeptic and senior astronomer. and author of "confessions of an

alien hunter." in san francisco, james spock, filmmaker, ufo researcher. his new documentary, i know what i saw, premieres october 5 on the history channel. in london, nick pope. used to run the brisht government's ufo project. we have to take a quick break and we will be right back. >> spaceship documenting close encounters and mysterious incidents. the u.k. national archives released another batch of the government's x-files. listing more than 800 ufo sightings reported between 1993 and 1996. the 14 new files debunks other incidents but also show some sightings are just plain strange. and unexplained. editors are s.

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anderson cooper will host "a.c. 360." excuse me. i got a laughing kick here. anderson, what's up tonight? >> larry, a lot ahead. less than an hour the polls will open in afghanistan. historical election and taliban trying to stop the violence and threats against poll workers. taking you live to afghanistan. also tonight the latest the mystery involving a murdered swimsuit model found stuffed into a suitcase. police say she was strange billion gled. they want to talk to her former husband, former reality show contestant. details on that. and new developments from the michael jackson investigation. l.a. core onlyter at dr. klein's office today. what it means about the

investigation. those stories and a lot more ahead on "360." >> larry: the new nasa mission is going to apparently maybe find these things. lead story in "newsweek." >> one of the more important things that happened in astronomy for decades because it is going to answer one question. how many cousins of earths are there out there? how many plan receipts out there in the universe that are something like the earth. >> larry: do you think they may be inhabitable? >> you don't know. all you know is they are the right size, right place, they could be. >> larry: james, do you salute this? >> you know, i do sometimes when you look for something that could be right under your nose. i'm not saying that ufos are of extraterrestrial origin but through the process of elimination doesn't appear to be -- excuse me, explanation a lot of times. >> larry: nick, what's the british government saying about

this? does it say that there are, there are, extraterrestrials? >> no. the position of the british government is that it remains open-minded about the possibilities. it looked at the ufo phenomenon for several decades. we found no absolute proof positive of any extraterrestrial visitation. but we have found consistently over the years some extremely interesting sightings that we couldn't explain in conventional terms. that's why i support any scientific effort to study this. >> larry: why isn't the united states more open about this, saying it might be there? >> at lot of stuff has been released by the freedom of information act. it is the case that, you know, you have to consider well, why is it that all the evidence is stacked up on the u.s. government? the same government that runs fema. they are doing a heck of a job of the ufos. have they covered it all up?

i can hardly believe the government has that much to say about it. >> larry: james, you did the documentary "i know what i saw," premieres october that premieres the 5. what do you believe? >> i believer there are flier ships whizingal our atmosphere. this is well documented fort last 60 years. we got an information from 1969 who investigated ufos for 22 years for the u.s. air force and his job was to give an explanation when there clearly wasn't sometimes. he recanted what he had done for the air force and went on the record before he died, stating that we were most likely, visited and that, you know, the flight performances of these things were just so far beyond anything that we have. i'm not saying that they're et but i'm saying we can no longer deny. once this film comes out people will see the debate shifts from do they exist to who's actually

piloting these things? >> larry: nick, you were part of the effort to track ufo sightings. what are they doing there? why do they keep circling? what are they finding? what is it all about? >> i have no idea. i mean, to a certain extent, i mean, one could speculate aimlessly about all of this. we looked at it at the ministry of defense purely as a defense of national security issue. and to a lesser extent, but we do have cases where these things come dangerously close to aircraft, as a flight safety issue. but i'm not sure we at the ministry really thought that it was going to be profitable to speculate too much because our unit was a very small one. a lot of people said, well, you shouldn't be wasting taxpayers' money on this sort of stuff anyway. so we tended to downplay this subject, even ourselves sometimes. but we said, look, if there's something in our air space, we know -- we need to know what it

is. and particularly if it's flight characteristics suggest some sort of technology, whether that technology is soviet or whatever, obviously we're interested in things like aerodynamics and propulsion systems >> larry: james, your new documentary, "i know what i saw" assembles accounts from various ufo witnesses from around the world. nick pope is one of them. >> it glided over my house. and there was absolutely no noise. >> we saw what i thought to be kind of a boomerang shape. >> i don't know if passengers can see this aircraft. >> in 19 7 during my second ternl as governor of arizona, i saw something that defied logic and challenged my reality. >> i saw one but i don't know if it just disappeared. >> but down over here and landed over on the dry lake bed.

>> larry: when we come back i'll ask the doctor what theories he might support. some lunch. you hungry? yeah. me too. (door crashes in) (broadview alarm) (gasp and scream) go! go! go! go! go! go! (phone rings) hello? this is mark with broadview security. is everything okay? no. someone just tried to break in. i'm sending help right now. thank you. (announcer) brink's home security is now broadview security. call now to install the standard system for just $99. the proven technology of a broadview security system delivers rapid response from highly trained professionals, 24 hours a day. call now to get the $99 installation, plus a second keypad installed free. and, you could save up to 20% on your homeowner's insurance. call now - and get the system installed for just $99. broadview security for your home or business -

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snoou >> larry: i don't often give my opinions on this program but i'm certainly open to this. i'm not going to discount it. anything's possible. and i think the public wants there to be something there. i don't think the government is afraid we would panic. i don't buy that theory. what theory do you support? >> i think there's plenty of life in space. one thing we've learned the last dozen years there's probably a trillion plant es in our gal ax.

where's the evidence that convinces the scientists? >> larry: yeah, why, james, why would they hide it? >> i addressed that issue in the film. i think one of the reasons is apparently we don't necessarily have control of our air space and no governing body want to admit that. these things fly rings around our fastest jets and have been doing so in the modern ufo period for the last six decades. >> larry: nick, if they're controlling our air space, to what avail? we seem to fly and land okay. >> well, i certainly wouldn't go so far as to say they control our air space. that said, there have been, as james said, plenty of encounters over the years where both commercial airline pilots and military pilots, and i've spoken to many of them, have actually seen these things up close and personal. and where there's corroborating evidence in terms of radar.

but i guess what i'd like to see, it always strikes me as someone with 21 years of experience in government, that actually the ufo community and the setting community are arguably looking for the same thing but this different places and with different methodologies. i guess i would like them to reach out on each other a little bit. >> nick, would you do me a favor, please -- >> larry: hold on, jim. >> actually, i'm open on that. i almost consider myself a part-time ufo investigator. larry, every day i get e-mails, phone calls and -- well, telephone calls and e-mails from people who are having difficult with aliens in their personal life. i can't think of a single example i thought, this is a hoax. they've seen something. it's worth investigating. the evidence is just not there to convince people >> larry: james what wering going to say? >> the very person's job it was to debunk you of ufos for 2 2 years, did a 180 and came out in

1979 and earlier saying these things were clearly did not appear to be of extraterrestrial origin because of -- >> did that not convince you? >> i hear you, seth. i'm not saying i'm a complete believer but there's a physical phenomenon taking place. radar recordings and photographs, and multieyewitness accounts. there has to be some sort of explanation. if it's not us, who is it? someone's been in possession of this technology for over 06 years and if they have they're in possession of revolutionary technology, then if not, we're, visited. >> larry: nick, do you want to believe? >> well, like seth, i'm convinced there must be life out there. and i i think it would be one of the most stupendous discoveries of all time. so, yes, i think it would be a very boring and lonely universe if we were the only life. and after all, it's one of those great fundamental questions,

isn't it, are we alone or not? >> larry: so we've been boring all this time because we don't know, right, seth? it's a boring world. >> but it may change within 10 or 20 years. >> larry: can i -- >> i think we'll have an answer to the question -- >> larry: james, quickly. >> a quick question. seth, i just want you -- how can you explain what people are seeing, airline pilots, radar operators, military guys? these are unambiguous cases in some cases they've touched these things. what are they, seth n your opinion? have you looked into it? are you talked to witnesses? >> well, i have. >> larry: quickly. >> the fact they're unexplained doesn't mean they're alien visits. there are a lot of unexplained murderers in los angeles but it doesn't mean they -- >> larry: thank you. we'll hopefully one day have an answer. as we wrap up, the cbs news man that produced $60 minut"60 in