evolved. this is not sunday school religion. this is not medicine. it's terrific story telling with a very important point. thanks to all of you for being part of my program this week. i will see you next week. welcome to a different take on a vital subject. vital because it matters to all of us. different because we're keeping this to a minimum. s by now you've heard plenty of shouting about health care reform, but far less about what reform actually is and what it means to you. what changes, what doesn't, the benefits, the cost and the cost of doing nothing. >> bankrupting family, bankrupting business. and we are going to fix it when we pass health insurance reform this year. we are going to fix it. >> by the end of this hour, you'll know in plain english details of what president obama wants and how he says they'll pay for it. also what's in some of the plans

going through congress right how. in plain enblish, the public opening, mandates al though things lawmakers say they can't with and others say they can't live without p. >> there are not the votes for the public option. there never have been. >> in the house of representatives without a strong public plan, even stronger than the one we reported ouftd committee, i think it would have a he difficult time getting 218 votes. >> what we're trying to do is stop the stampede towards more government takeover and taxes toond move on to real health care reform. >> believe it or thought, by the end of the hour, this will all make sense. health care, president obama's extreme challenge and yours. we have david gur again, dr. sanjay gupta, pamela jen friday, and chris team row mash. we'll start with david. some very big stacks of paper. i just want to show you are our

viewers these are which are the various house and senate proposals that we though about. you worked in the clinton white house under health care. what is will be doing differently? >> anderson, president obama has taken a very different approach from what president clinton did. back in the clinton days, mrs. clinton co-captained a team to write a big and came up with a bill that was even bigger than this and tent it to the hill and congress essentially said not written here, we didn't like it. so instead of doing that, rahm emanuel is working with president obama and others that let's have the hill right this this time so president obama earlier this year came out with a set of general principles like eight general principle, very vague, but general principles. and they left it to the congress to write it. >> so now we have several different plans being talked about on capitol hill. >> and that's been a problem for everybody because there is no one bill. instead we have this.

in fact, there's going to be more. >> let's talk about what's been more or less agreed pop in principle and what has not been agreed upon. sa in. jay, up you were for consideration of the surgeon general. what are the general principles that have been agreed upon in all the various bills? >> lowering costs and increasing access, sort of the broad categories. having said that it's very expensive, month appear which bill you're looking at, over a trillion dollars over ten years. and when that sank in, people really started to pay attention. also had idea that people have to have insurance. for example, if you're uninsured but you can afford to buy insurance, you have to go buy it. if you don't, you pay a penalty. if you can't afford trgs then you might get subsidies. that's a broad principle, as well. another big deal from a medical perspective as well as policy, this idea that you don't

discriminate base odd pre-existing conditions. this has been a real problem because people can't get health care insurance because maybe they have money, but if they have some sort of ills inness, their premiums are way too high. that nondiscriminatory thing seems to be consistent. the expansion overall of government programs. to qualify for medicare, you have to made below a certain income. that level may go up. again, if you look at the bill, that may be something consistent between the bills. and finally this idea of just subsidy, the dwlad people will come in and try and help people who can't afford it overall to get health care insurance. >> those are the issues that are more or less agreed upon no matter which version of the bill is finally passed. what about the biggest issues that haven't been agreed on in. >> people talk about the idea of the public option 37 it is an option that would be on the backs of taxpayer dollars to try to provide health square to those who don't have it because they can't afford it. should that be a government run program or should that be a nonprofit that's not government run such as co-ops. that's another thing that's come

in it play. or should there be no option like that and this all just sort of saying insurance reform is the nape of the game here. we have to force the private insurance companies to do those two thing, cut cost and increase access. how to pay for this has been something that's come up almost since people started talking about this. some say, look, if you create a healthier society overall, you prevent people there getting sick in the first place, they're going to bring down costs. how long does that take, how much of an empact did that have? hard to say. employer mandates is another issue. so do you have to provide health care insurance? what size company has to do that? what quality of health care insurance did you have it to provide in these are things that are not agreed upon in the bill. i think the most interesting thing really is the time line. as sur against as this issue is, if you look at the time line, it's very realistic that nothing will happen really that people will notice until about 2013. and really three years after that until you see really the full manifestation of any of these --

>> so this isn't instant. >> not by any means and you probably won't see hardly anything oefrts next couple years. maybe funding sources, but that's about it about about sglnt want too bring this pamela. you've worked in health care understand the clinton administration. this is really the first political test for barack obama and i want to play something that he said about a month or so ago. let's take a look. >> just the other day, one republican senator said, and i'm quoting him now, "if we're able to stop obama on this, it will be his waterloo. it will break him. think about that. this isn't about me. this isn't about politics. this is about a health care system that is breaking america's families, breaking america's businesses and breaking america's economy. ". >> president obama was responding to it a comments by republican senator jim demint of south carolina. how has the president done so far?

they clearly have not been on track. >> during the campaign, senator mccain and senator obama both talked with health care reform. everyone agreed that something had to be done. how they got off track, that now it's only the democrats who want to reform and not the republicans and he hasn't beenable too keep his bipartisan world is hurting him politically. >> let's talk about a lot of money obviously. estimated price of president obama's health care form is a trillion dollars. that's estimated over ten years and it's in a multitrillion dollar budget, but a huge expense. arguments on both side, some saying we can't afford to do this, the government is spending too much money already, others saying we can't afford not to did it because the current system is broke and with medical costs riser faster than inflation, eventually we'll go br. >> and millions saying i'm paying as much for my own health care as i am for my rent and very close and i can't go on like that, so you have a situation where you're talking about big dollars from washington if you do something and big dollars if you don't. and you have people on the ground who don't have health insurance who are going to the

emergency room as their first point of contact or are going without important preventive care and it's just costing the system more and administer and more. we in our it's inefficient and going blink up an ever bigger part of our economy. in terms of the trillion, this is what gets people so concerned, we're throwing around such big numbers here that even veterans covering how much money washington spends can barely get our heads around it. >> it's just an estimate at this point. there are those who say that's a low ball number. >> the president has made a calculation here that this is the time for him to spend the political capital to do something. >> with a we do know and one of the reasons why a lot of americans are concerned is we do know that when we had programs like this in patst, they've always wound up costing more. medicare cost one heck of a lot more in part because a lot of new technology came online available to people over 65 and everybody said they ought to have access to that but the expenses went way up pup same

thing under prescription drugs understand george w. bush. it cost a lot more than first estimated, so when people say a trillion dollar,s american people are thinking that's just a start. that's their opening bid. >> medicare was supposed to cost $9 billion in 2009 and it cost $67 billion. >> and i think that the disagreement is the president himself said there are two two real problem, the one is the people uninsured, but the second is cost. the cost of premiums have doubled essentially since 2000. there is very little in any of these bills that really does contain costs. >> we'll look at more of that in just a moment. next the details you really care about, your bottom line on health care reform. how will the potential changes affect your cost and your coverage. if they will at all. plus other groups powerful and well financed groups that also have a big stake in reform or in stopping it. we'll talk about big farm made, insurance companies, doctors, employers and more ahead on extreme challenges, health care.

we're talking about your care. president obama has been trying to drive home the message that the way prices keep rising and

the way the system works thousand simply cannot work much longer. >> our system really is not a health care system. it's more like a disease care system. right? we wait until people get sick and then we provide them care. >> whatever you call it, here's thousand works. you how reform would change it and who is it a sdak hoerld. according to numbers from the nonpartisan commonwealth funds, 164 million americans have insurance through work. they would keep their coverage though companies could change their providers and plans the way they already do. premiums would likely stay the same. 14 million americans buy insurance individually. those with pre-existing conditions often facing exclusions, denial or crushing premiums. their premiums could fall under reform and pre-existing conditions would no longer affect coverage. 49 million are without insurance. they'd be required to buy it or pay a penalty. government health would be available to help pay for it. 81 million now have medicare, medicaid or va coverage. medicaid may expand to cover

more lower income family, medicare would largely stay the same. so who would most be affected if reform went through? >> i think it's the people who don't have health care insurance an can't afford it. it's interesting about a and you just made the point that if you can afford it and you don't have it, you got buy it. >> they would be penalized? >> some sort of penalty. this is already taking place in the state of massachusetts, for example. and some say it works pretty well. you have about 97% covered now in the state of massachusetts. some say it's not fair enough to penalize people that way. however you look at it that's what's on the table right now. >> i think the big break through would be universal coverage. every other industrialized country has it. but the second thing that's been interesting about the obama administration is sift shifting the argument to talk about the benefits for the insured. that wasn't part of the original argument. but it's now -- >> because the people we're seeing at those town halls who are angry, those are largely peel who already have insurance.

>> but there are ones who are working and they will now no longer face the problem that if they leave their job and try to get new insurance, what if you have cancer and they won't insure you for a pre-existing condition. or some people face the problem that they think they have good insurance, they get sick and then the insurance company calls and says you made a mistake, you didn't it tell us something on your form, we're not going to pay you. >> there is a second group of insured, people over 65, who are showing up who are fearful they'll get something worse. they think that medicare is going to be affected in a negative way. that a lot of what they'll pay for this in part, 40% of it, is to take it out of medicare. and they think quality of care for them will go down. >> and they have talked about hundreds of billions of dollars in waste in medicare, about you how do you define waste and how would it affect the care.

>> politicians always when they want to say they're able to reduce costs without hurting anyone, they say there's all this waste we can take out. there are a lot of players in this game on both sides. how much influence do special interest groups have in ob vukting health care reform? let's see what president obama recently said in montana. gr every time we're this sight of health insurance reform, the special interests fight back with everything they've got. they use their influence, they run their ads, and their political allies try to scare the heck out of everybody. it happened in '93. it's happening now. >> let's talk about specific groups that have an interest in either blocking reform outright or in changing it or limiting it in some form. big pharmaceutical companies. is there anything in the bill about lowering the cost of prescription dugs? >> the pharmaceutical industry which was not a party to the 19993 swlsh '94 effort is now with the white house. they want coverage, they want affordable coverage for

everyone. and they want co-pays to be reasonable and pessimists are skepts cal because they'll have this huge group much people who will be able to -- they have agreed to cut $80 billion out of their costs and interestingly, they're -- over ten years and they're spending $150 million in advertising to push for health reform. and a lot of people like robber rich, he smells a rat and he says a lot of people are say, look, they wouldn't do it if it wasn't good for their industry. >> something like medicare do a system like the va does where they negotiated both for the bryce of drugs. >> that is a nonxwoeshable item. for some rope, the pharmaceutical industry has managed to keep that at bay. and they have convinced them that they need the extra money if we want to call it extra money to do research and to create new drugs and they say that no one else is doing that. >> that's true. the pharmaceutical industry has to spend money on research. that's very true. it's always been a question of

how much do they need and how do you get a fair balance. and the reason bob reich and a lot of others are so angry is that they think the administration has a bad deal. they'll tie our hands. and the sleft off the wall about that kind of deal. it's in the clear if the white house can keep the deal in congress. >> and another they think you have here is generic drugs. seven out of ten prescriptions written are for generic drugs. some of the stories i've heard, a came solution that occurs between a brand name drug manufacturer, they'll into go to the generic manufacturer and say we'll pay you x amount of money so you don't make the generic. the generic company, they make their money, but the public suffers because they don't have

access to this generic. >> the industry i find most fast natured to watch is the insurance industry. they have followed a very clever smart strategy and that is the last time around, the insurance industry was one of the enemies of clinton care and helped to bring it down. and this time around, the industry looked and said we'll cooperate this time. so they came in and said we will give you on pre-existing condition, we'll change everything voluntarily, just don't give us the public option. >> one thing they did ask for is this is presented indicate order a lot more people being insured and a lot of people will that will come in is these young healthy people who will make the insurance company money. >> one of the biggest winners

out of this will be the insurance industry the way this is thousand. >> they'll get more customers regardless how this happens. >> what about medical malpractice reform? a lot of folks say doctors have no incentives not to did a lot of tests because they're trying to cover themselves. >> it if you look at payouts, that's not a huge part of medical costs. this idea of defensive medicine might be. i want to order more tests so i can protect myself. some will say it's up to 15% of health care costs. but i don't see much talk about tort reform, malpractice, nothing. and president obama gave a speech in front of the after the ma where the only time he got booed at all was when he talked about the fact that he's thought going to have caps on malpractice insurance claims. and he said people have been wronged in some way by medicine, they deserve to be able to have their day in court and deal with whatever the reward is. >> the trial lawyers want it too protect the trite sue all the doctors.

and are driving up costs. but the trial lawyers are extremely allies of the democratic party. so the democratics are l. not take them on. if they want to take it truly by part son, one reason is to say let's do something about these lawsuits that are forcing doctors to practice defensive medicine. >> most say they don't believe that defensive medicine actually exists. they're saying they're doing it in the best interests of the patients. that's the argument that they're presenting. >> an ear nose and throat doctor told me here in new york that if a patient walks in and says i would like an mri, he does it automatically. he said if i don't do it, i'm worried i might be sued. so he said i have no choice if they ask, i have to do it. even though i don't think it's good idea. >> so when i go to the deny tis, ski ask for nitrous ox side just because i want it. let's talk about big business. most recently a number of folks

in the auto industry were complaining that they have to subsidize health care where they're competing against people in other countries who don't because it's government subsidies there. >> it's a good argument and something they've been making for years to no avail. and the reason that you and i feel it is that in this country, you haven't had your wages go up because the companies are paying these extra costs for health care and they're passing that along to you. they're giving you more for your health care coverage and you're not getting it it in your paycheck. you're paying for it one way or the other. but even people who are employed and they're getting their insurance through their employer, if they think of what they were getting five years ago and what they were paying, whether it was the co-pay or what was coming out of their check, and they look at where they are now five years later, same employer, they'll find that more is coming out of their check and that their co-pay has been increased. what do they think will be five years from now? >> and a lot of people who have health insurance through work, i think they don't get it, but if they have a catastrophic

illness, it might not cover everything they think it will cover. when you look at the number of people who file for bankruptcy, number one skau for medical costs and almost half of those are people who had health insurance. so you're covered and you say i don't want health care reform because it will hurt me, but what everyone really is one step away, a catastrophic illness of really killing their family finances. >> what should stay the same and what actually work sths that right after this. others by the car of their dreams. during the lexus golden opportunity sales event, you can do both. special lease offers now available on the 2009 es 350.

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we're back talking about health care reform, which can he should remind you is in many different form, many different bills being talked about on capitol hill. it it is president obama's

extreme challenge. and we're talking about why making any kind of change from better to worse is such a challenge. people seem to be holding some contradictory notions on the subject. on the one hand, a poll shows 8 #% surveyed are satisfied with their health care. on the other hand, 77% believe that major changes are necessary to make sure all americans have health insurance. so is it a case of change the system but leave me alone or something else at work here. >> that's an interesting question. i think people very much those 83% are fearful that health care reform will mean reform for them and giving up something. whether it means that their care will go down or whether they think 50 million people will suddenly start flowing into the health care system and they won't anable to see their doctor my more, they will vito wait weeks to see a doctor. >> one of the many things you hear at these meeting, people say aim going to have to change my doctor, can i keep going to the same doctor that i've gone to and i like. >> and if you have insurance,

you're happy with it, you keep your doctor, you keep your insurance. probably work much in the same way that it works now. for example, if you have an in-network doctor, you pay a -- >> nobody can guarantee that your doctor will continue with some form of insurance. >> that's true today. not all doctors take medicare, foegs. so if you go to medicare and your doctor doesn't take it, you would have to switch doctors. and that would probably be true with the public option, as well. so i think in that sense, it would still be the same. sdl there's some real big trust issue that we haven't seen, a lack of trust. and when l. when i talk to people on the radio show or ask them why are you so concerned or opposed to health care reform, it takes about three minutes to get to and they said they were going to buy the toxic assets from the banks and they didn't. and you can see that people are looking over the past year and they've been told one thing and something else make has happened and they think we're living in this world of big financial experiment and they just can't -- >> there is also real and

legitimate fear about the role of government in our society. that now this seems to be one more thing that government is now getting further and further involved in. they own the backs, they own the auto industry. >> i think what they're not understanding right now or what they're worried about is that what they have, they're going it lose. whatever it is, what they have, they don't want to lose. >> sounds like a lot of people are satisfied with medicare, but is medicare going broke? >> medicare is going to run out of money. >> that's called going broke. >> and it can't sustain itself the way it is. >> look at what medicare has become. >> and they look at that and they see the good example and the bad example. the bad is that that program has not grown from the time it was created. created as an acute care program to take care of sick people in a hospital. >> i think one of the other aspects of this is very fundamental to who we are as a people. there are a lot of sociologists

and his torians will tell you we as an american people are just different. we're an outlier nation. our value system is different. he don't think like canadians, we don't accept government, we're not differential to authority the way canadians are. and i think president obama has misread that shall. when you come to sell big government to american people, they tend to be very, very wary of it. it's been true throughout our history. >> do you think health care is different, though? in the sense that if you say no one wants to live in a country where people die from diseases, where people may not be able to get vaccinated. that sort of stuff happens, if that's the argument as opposed to it's not i don't think we're like the british or cat nad

krans in that sense. that does not mean you can't have universal coverage. it does mean you can have a very robust people when poor people have a chance for a decent life. it does mean in the american system we tend to do that more through the private sector than through the public. >> i think that's why the sink he will payer option was never on the table. >> can he say if he had to did it all over again, he would -- >> it doesn't mean that there is one place to go, one stop shopping and that's for medicare. they pay every claim goes to medicare, they pay every claim and there's no option. nobody has a private insurance. what he wanted to leave on the table was that you'd have an option to use a blue credits blue shield and, by the way, one of the options would be a government option and that's the one that's getting so much talk about now is the public option. >> in terms of other things that work, specialized medicine, high end medicine is something that does seem to be working in this country. the quality of care is very good. people come from all around the

world to be treated in this country. things like brain surgery, hart surgery, you're a brain surgeon, you though about this. is that something that potentially be affected negatively by reform? >> it works really well for a certain percentage of the population. not for everybody obviously because a lot of people don't have access to insurance. if you look at what people are say whog are supporters of this, they'll say it weren't be affected negatively that people will still get that quality of care. but it go back to the earlier point, if you're trying to insure more people, cut costs, what effect are that have overall on the general level of access to these things. there's lots of areas where we're good at things. children's health care, heart disease. we cut down heart disease that significantly which is a leading killer of people in the united states. >> what about preventive care? everybody says we should focus on preventive care, but there's not a lot of money to be made ma in preventive care. >> medically and morally, it makes a lot of sense and people are trying to make the financial argument, a well, but you're

right, it's hard to make that financial argument. >> drug companies don't make money off people not doing something. >> and it involves more screenings. if we do more veenings on somebody, do you find something. if you find smrk do biopsy, do e time off work. but it still medically makes sense to keep people from getting sick in the first place. >> one thing lacking is are there ways you can provide rewards to people who look of a tell themselves, who exercise regularly, they don't smoke, don't drink to excess. because that leads to a lot of the costs we have some this country. >> if you're obese, you're less likely to be paid as much as someone else. >> we talked about this turs. the president said we want to see financial incentive if people with healthy lifestyles, for people who are working out,

who are -- he held up companies as an example who really pushed their -- >> i just talked to the head of the chief land clinic which does not hire people who smoke. they want to set an example. >> you have people who have access to everything. best insurance, they have money, they can hire trainers and they're still overweight and obese. i think the idea of legislating through incentives or whatever else to change behavior is a tricky proposition. i don't know if it would work. >> we've managed to get people it to buckle up, we've managed to get people to stop smoking to a considerable degree. >> what question haven't done is we haven't merged health care with public health. that's what we haven't done. and the types of things we're addressing now is getting that obesity or exercise, those are public health you issues. >> how true is that when you go to an emergency room in any city, no doubt you see people who are using that as primary

care. >> absolutely. no question about it. >> and how much of a drain on the the system is that? >> it's a huge drain. and we were talking about massachusetts earlier. it continues to an huge drain on massachusetts everyone though you have 97% of people insured. they're still using emergency rooms as a first stop. here's the problem. we don't have enough primary care doctors in this country. we're about 16,000 short. so you have insurance now. if you can't find a doctor or find a doctor who gives you an appointment, it may not be as much value as you think it would be. >> it is thought comprehensive in the sense of trying to change the whole system. it is really focused more on insurance and how the insurance system works for everybody. >> which really gets nothing to actually lowering costs. >> it doesn't get to some of these other questions of lifestyles and how to get more young people incentive because

primary care theres are the worst paid doctors. you have to change the incentives. >> it's called plastic surgery. >> i was stretching for that. >> when we come back, we'll talk about the money, somehow this going to be paid for, how much is all this going to cost. we'll crunch the numbers ahead.

here's the top stories right now. hurricane bill is heading toward eastern canada with 85-mile-an-hour winds. the category 1 storm could make land fall in newfinland tomorrow. tropical storm warning has been canceled language the massachusetts coast, but broadcasters predict large sea swells will continue and could cause dangerous rip currents and surf. the president is on his way to martha's vineyard for a family vacation. the trip was postponed a few hours because of bad weather from hurricane now tropical storm bill, but the obamas are scheduled to arrive on the massachusetts island shortly and will stay there for a week. the nation's top military officer said the situation on the ground in afghanistan is serious and deteriorating. appearing on cnn's state of the union this morning, mike mullen said no decision had been made yet on asking for more u.s. troops. learn what's fact and fiction in health care reform.

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here's the biggest challenge president obama faces on health care reform. namely paying for it. the price tag is immense. >> we had make sure that no insurance company or government bur owe accurate gets between you and the care that you need. and we will do this without add

to go our definite set over the next decade. >> here's my question. how come the democrats plan to save money will cost us more money? how come their plan to reduce health care costs will cost us trillions more in tax dollars? >> somebody will pay. the president obama wants it to be the wealthy and hes warns the cost to everyone of doing nothing. it's hidden to most of us, but getting larger every day. the cost of insuring a family has more than doubled since 1999 and the portion picked up by you, money straight out of your pocket is, is up 117%. why has health care costs gone snup. >> being of hip replacements and all the things that you can do in you that are expensive that you couldn't do ten year ago. baby boomers who are aging, more people using more expensive care. and you made a very good point earlier, you've got 20% is 80% of the costs and that's a big cost in one part of the

demographic and that part will only get bigger. >> no one does particularly well in terms of controlling costs, either the public system, private or other countries in the world. just about everywhere you have health care costs outpacing inflation. >> at the high end, we deliver terrific care for people who can afford it. but we do know we've got one of the least efficient systems in the industrialized world. we spend far more per person and get less for it than other major industrialized nations. people in other nations pay less and they live longer. so the system needs to be changed. the way you have to change it is probably change the incentives for doctors to do awful these extra things. right now there are not enough centers to do just what's needed fwhou more. >> a term keeps getting thrown around comparative effectiveness which is interesting. for example, if you're taking a

statten medication, you want to know at the end of the day is this going make lee me live long ir, will it reduce my chance of a heart attack. that's why you're taking the medication. you'd be surprised at how hard that is to prove. >> for everyone who has written one of these novels has something in there about saying best practices exn. comparison, we'll reward those making a difference. and, again, the problem is how will you measure it. >> that's where this idea that someone will come between you and your doctor, because of the comparative effectiveness study shows doing a stent didn't make a big difference. you as a patient say i should be getting it, but it doesn't look like it makes that big a difference. >> this notion getting back to how all this will be paid for, the greater efficiency in the system is somehow help us pay for this, or more preventive care will help us pay for that, that's not fact ally correct or

provable. >> very hard to prove that. again, medically and morally, it makes perfect accepts, with you from a financial economic argument, it's tough to prove. >> i think the biggest blow health care took was the congressional budget office said this doesn't add up. you don't have the saving here that you say you have. you're 240 short. and we can't say with surety that that experiment nationwide will work. >> phony fears, myths, things that are not actually contained in any of the reform plans. we'll take a closer look at the fiction and the fact after this short break.

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president obama's extreme challenge has been the game he's had to play knocking down myths that spring up about the various programs. only it's not a game. >> i don't have any rob with things like living wills, but they ought to be done within the family. we should not have a government program that determines you're going to pull the plug on grandma. >> he took a fair amount of heat including from arlen specter for amping up a legit nat math concern. there are others mistrusting government that would have enough resources to go around. let's start with the most ver shal issue, the idea of death panels. >> i understand that a federal health board will sit in judgment of medical procedures

and protocols to impose guidelines on all providers when to withhold certain types of care. >> for facts sake, is there any truth to that in. >> i think she's overlapping two things, this idea of comparative effectiveness with this idea of end of life counseling. they call it death panels. >> the critics are calling it death panels. >> it conjures up this image of a firing squad. but this idea that the end of life counseling would be paid for as part of this and the two things that you don't have to accept end of. >> referee: counseling and you don't have to act on it i think is very important. studies will will show that if you get into h. end of life counseling, elderly people will more likely to be less aggressive with their care after they hear about all that may be in store for them. >> britain, for example, if you're elderly and you're 85 years old and you go in with a cancer problem, they may well

tell you we're not going to do surgery and should you just go home. >> aren't there already death panels in america? insurance companies determine who gets treated and what is going to be covered and what's not. and those are life and death decisions. >> insurance companies also have limits on how much money they will spend on you. and if you reach that certain amount that they've designated, they're done. and so if you wanted to continue your life and you're out of money, i guess they would be put in that category, as well. >> they keep bringing up the idea of rationing, but rationing does occur already. i get these letters all the time from insurance companies saying you want to did a cervical spine procedure on this patient, great, sxemts we're not going to pay for it. it's a for him of rationing. >> they they don't get a certain type of care. >> whether illegal immigrants would be covered.

>> i believe most people are happy with their health care. there's a few problems. the illegals. they shouldn't even be here let alone get coverage. i would ask congress to do something to send them home so we don't have to deal with that. >> i have a simple yes or no question for you today. will you ever vote for a bill that gives nonu.s. citizens access to a taxpayer paid free health insurance? >> this bill will not provide insurance for i will held immigrants in this country. what i think is less clear to people is whether you're hearing some thon u.s. citizen legally, and my understanding is it will provide insurance for those people. >> yes, if you here legally, you will. >> if you're here legally, right. >> children, as well. but it gets murky if someone is married to an undocumented worker, what happens to that couple, what happens to their

children. all of that gets a little bit more murky. >> nobody wants to give illegal immigrants insurance. >> no, they're not. >> if it's an economic argument again that uninsured people cost more money because they show up in the emergency room, they use those services, if you're making the economic art, then it does make sense to cover everybody because they're still going to utilize the health care system. even as undounlgted workers. >> let's talk about the other issue drawing a lot of heat at town hall meetings, abortion. listen. >> abortion is not health care. it is not health care. and, ladies and gentlemen, fellow citizens, if this thing passes, you and i and every other american, whether we support life or not, will be paying for abortions. >> do >> i do nopt want to pay on a

health care plan that include as right for a woman to kill her unborn baby. is it true that this plan is in the health care bill is this. >> claire mccaskill said that no federal money would be used to fund abortions. is that true? it makes it illegal for no federal money -- >> right, except for in the interests of the mother's health. i tried to study this. i think what it says is that federal funding through the exchange for frift insurance companies won't necessarily fund abortion. it says private insurance companies can say they won't, but they're not forbidden. with regard to the public option, if that ever materializes, it seems like a the lot of that comes understand the authority of the secretary of health and human services. so could you potentially have federal dollars through the public option potentially funding abortion. but let me tell you, i spent several hours reading through these paragraphs to try and even narrow it down to that. >> there's no one bill for us to be able to point to and say -- >> i did that for nothing?

>> but certainly that if it does turn out that it is possible to have some federal funding for abortion, that would be incendiary. >> coming up next, the bottom line. acho (announcer) what are you going to miss when you have an allergy attack? achoo! (announcer) benadryl is more effective than claritin at relieving your worst symptoms. and works when you need it most. benadryl. you can't pause life. they say imports always get the best mileage. well, do they know this malibu offers an epa estimated 33 mpg highway? they never heard that. which is better than a comparable toyota camry or honda accord? they're stunned. they can't believe it. they need a minute. i had a feeling they would. there's never been more reasons to look at chevy.

welcome home, man.

back to the big picture on the health care challenge. what happens next? >> i think what's going to be significant other than the next few months is that what started with a lot of momentum has lost

a lot of mow men tumg. the resistance is growing. the same thing happened for the clinton health care plan. widespread support at the beginning. >> do you think democrats may go it along? >> even if they go alone, i think the chances are growing that they will go for something more modest than what the president wants. and there is a growing chance we'll have complete failure. >> and i think the other people who are actually suptsing health care reform, whether they were in the private sector or the public sector, they weren't very vocal. they just assumed that this was going to roll along and that information was going to get out there and people would understand what was benefiting they will. the parts that were benefiting them. and that didn't happen. >> you have to explain to people who it will mean for their taxes a and for their care and their benefits and their coverage and their own money and we can't answer some of those questions because there's several different bills in the committee that we don't know exactly what it will look like yet. and people just are skeptical that they'll have to give something up.

>> there is still a lot of support. we played a lot of clips of people who are not in favor of this and the town halls stimulated a hot of this conversation, but this is different than '93 in that president obama has the support of pharm and the american health insurance provider, the american medical association. these are organizations that have typically not been supportive of this type of health care reform, so this is different in some ways. we're seeing a lot of these -- >> you think there will be some type of reform in. >> i think there will be something. >> i don't think it will go away. >> and you think it could go either way is this. >> i think we're almost on a knife edge and i think the president has to take charge of the conversation and the negotiationses and not just leave it to a lot of other people. otherwise, the chances of failure will rise. >> it's been an