>> no green lanterns and super mario brothers. for don lemon at cnn world headquarters, see you back here for state of the union with john king begin right now. >> i'm john king at the minnesota state fair. this is a special labor day weekend edition of state of the union. it is a big concern at the state fair and at work places and schools across america. how big is the h1n1 risk? is the government ready? >> i don't want anyone to be alarmed but do i want everyone to be prepared. >> plus the flash point at the fairgrounds and back in washington as the president prepares for a high stake address to congress. we put your questions to key voices.

democratic senators. and minnesota's republican governor tim paw lenny. and from the center of disease control, dr. thomas frieden. then from waterloo, wisconsin. a dairy farmer who relies on cooperatives for feed, seed, and now his health care, says reform doesn't have to mean more government spending. and a congressman leading the fight for a public health care option. keith ellison gets the last word. >> labor day weekend means more than the end of summer vacation. congress is coming back to find why feisty town hall and president obama faces a decisive test. support for his reform ideas are slipping and the president is betting on a speech wednesday to a joint session of congress to reframe the health care fight more to his liking. mr. obama's biggest challenge is

bridging differences in his own democratic party over how much the government can afford, how best to reduce the cost and whether there must be a so-called government or public insurance option. as the president is upon the of saying, if it were easy, somebody would have already done it. what must he do now? we begin with two senators who want big change but don't always see eye to eye. >> a big speech from the president. what is the one thing you need to hear from him to convince you he has the moment dlul and the initiative back? >> i believe after spending many days here at the state fair, minnesota state fair interesting mother of all town hall meetings, people everywhere wanting to talk to you, people want to see a focus on affordability and cost. that seems to me what brings people together across party lines. an emphasis on how can we make this more affordable? they've realize asked time have changed over august. thing have calmed a teeny bit

and people have step back to say, you know what? i know my premiums have doubled in the last ten years and i have every reason to believe they will double again. that's what the number show. if you're a senior or going to be a senior by 2017, medicare is going in the red. this focus on cost, accountability, doing something, getting something done rgs that's what i would like him to talk about. >> senator nelson, the president says the white house will be more specific. you know the big flash points. what is the one specific where it the president needs to say, this is the way i need it to be. >> i think he has to say, if there will be a public option, it has to be subject to a trigger. in other words, if somehow the private market doesn't responsible the way that it is supposed to, then it would trigger a public option or a government-run option but only as a fail safe backstop to the process. when i say trigger, out here in

nebraska, the midwest, i don't mean a hair trigger. i mean a true trigger. one that would only apply if there is the kind of competition in the business that we believe there would be. >> are you ready to accept that? where you see if the private market responds and then the private market would kick in only if you don't get more access, more affordability? >> i would want to see what the triggers are, what the bench marks are. when i get around i, they talk about the backpack company up in two harbors, a guy there own a company. $24,000 a year he's paying for his family of four. he said he wouldn't have even started the company 15 years ago if he knew that. what i want to see is something where small businesses, self-employed, small businesses are paying 20% more than people who work in big corporations, that they have a chance to buy into something. certainly it is worth looking at. we have to do a better job of putting some rule on the

insurance company. i got involved when i got kicked out of the hospital. my daughter was born and was incredibly sick and couldn't swallow. and i got kicked out in 24 hours. and i got it passed to have a 48-hour hospital stay. >> he has been calling moderate and conservative democrats. i understand you're one of the democrats he has call. has he convinced you that he has a plan that not only can fast senate but with bipartisan support? >> no. he doesn't have a consensus at this point in time. i think he still remains optimistic and is going to wait and see what the president has to say wednesday night. that might break the log jam. and bring some republicans on. i know that senator grassly seems to be concern that only three republicans is not bipartisan enough for him. so perhaps with the right

combination of ideas and a triger and thing like that, others might join in the process. >> is that enough for you? do you do this with 55 or 60? and should the president slow down? or do you do it with 50? >> i would like to see us at 60. i would like to see some bipartisan support for this bill. >> is there any possibility of that? >> i do. olympia snowe is still hanging in. there she understands how important in this. you see senator corker saying i hope we can find some common ground. i do think it is a possibility. the problem with going down to 50 is we have more limited tools in terms of getting the kind of work that needs to get done to help people. >> please jump in, sir. >> for the 50 votes, the people in nebraska are already concerned we've been rushing things through. if we went through some sort of

a parliamentary shortcut, i think they would be even more alarmed than they are right now. that's what i heard during the town hall meetings. >> i want to show you both some thing i pick up at the republican state fair. these are from the republican party. change, i would like mine back. this one, hands off my health care to oppose something is pretty easy. to sell something hard is much more difficult. as the president goes before the congress wednesday night, does he have a policy problem or a marketing problem? >> first, i think it is a great opportunity as i look at the pot roast behind you, for him to put the meat on the bone. to really give the american some details. when i look back, one of the issues when it first came out, here's a big plan, you can get this, you can get this, you can get that. americans are still struggling with the xhirk looking at the debt and deficit that we're facing said wait a minute. i think it is very important the president steps back and says we

have a problem here. >> you were a governor before you came to the senate. president obama was a senator before he became the chief executive. do you have any advice for him? anything he has done in his health care debate so far, that you think mr. president, you got that one wrong? here's a bit of advice for you? >> i don't know if it was gotten wrong. i think they have an opportunity to grab the message now and perfect the message. i think if there is anything that has missed -- that has misinform the american people, it is the message that outlined what the insured public will gain from this. in other words, it was inadequate in explaining to them that the costs are out of control, and that if the costs continue as amy has said, to go at the rate they have, then it becomes unsustainable for all of us to be able to cover ourselves with the rising health care costs. so i think that is the message, to tell people who currently

have coverage, what's in it for them? what i found in the town hall, people wanted us to do nothing because they thought whatever we did, they would be worse off. they couldn't understand how they would be better off. they were worried something would be taken from them to be given to someone else. and you can't really straighten that out unless the message improves on how cost containment, wellness programs, prevention, all the things that can be done, will benefit them in the short material. particularly in the long term. >> we'll have more many just a moment. we'll ask them whether more troops in afghanistan is the answer and whether the government is ready for a potential h1n1 flu pandemic. ant. reduces puffiness immediately -- and also helps with lines and wrinkles. not surgery. this is our way to do your eyes. new regenerist anti-aging eye roller.

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the aarp booth here at the minnesota state fair, taking a colonel poll. the republican "waiting in line for obama care." we're back with senator klobuchar and senator nelson, two democrats. i want to move to another issue at the fair the h1n1 flu virus. four confirmed cases, others suspected. senator klobuchar are you confident the administration has a plan in place to deal with this as america goes back to school? >> they have a plan but everyone knows there will be challenges. they've been good at getting out front on the challenges. the regular flu vaccine is more targeted to seniors and others. the fact that the new h1n1 vaccine really has to go first to kids and to pregnant women so i talked to some of our health

officials in smaller counties, with their education challenges ahead, but i think the administration made that very clear and has been clear in their message, so that the minute the vaccine comes out people understand who gets it first and they're pushing the regular flu vaccine now which i think is also smart. >> governor nelson from your perspective in a rural state, we should note you're holding a telephone up because we're having issues with your audio, if they haven't figured that out already. is it a concern this vaccine won't be ready until mid-october and we're seeing an uptick in cases across the country? >> obviously you'd like to have it in advance but it's a major challenge to get the plan put in place because we're not really certain what's going to happen. these flu viruses change as they go along, what was happening in the spring not happening the same in the fall. but i think the administration's taking the right steps. i think we'll be in a position to do everything that we can do, but obviously everyone would have liked to have seen it just

a little bit earlier. >> senator nelson, let me stick with you on this point. another difficult issue facing the president is the question, after already having sent more troops into afghanistan, his commanding general there believes he needs still more. do you believe that more troops should go to afghanistan and do you believe that the president has a clear mission and an exit strategy? >> well, i don't know about the mission and the exit strategy, but we are going to have the benchmarks that i've been pushing for some time as part of the armed services committee. we're going to have those available rather shortly, because we do have to know what the mission is. we have to be able to measure or progress, or lack of progress towards that mission, and we have to determine what it is we're trying to do with the taliban, and make the country not another platform for the al qaeda staging platform for their goals, which are detrimental to the rest of the world. so these benchmarks i think will

be very helpful in understanding what we need to do and how we're doing, trying to get that. now, admiral mullins is coming in to see me this week and you can only imagine my first question is, why do we need more troops, and how do those troops fit in with the benchmarks that are about to come out. >> and so senator klobuchar, here at the state fair and in your travels, do the american people want more troops sent to afghanistan? do they think it's worth it? >> in this state, so many minnesotans serving over there. we've lost a number of brave soldiers in the last month so they understand the challenges. at the same time they know that it has been a mess there for a long time, the previous administration was so singularly focused on iraq, that i think things were left to decay in afghanistan. so the president is really changing that policy with a new general, general mcchrystal. i think we need to give him a chance to do his work. people are throwing acid in faces of little girls where they go to school, trying to hold on

to having a democratic election clearly with some problems and i think it's important that we give general mcchrystal a chance to change strategy there. >> let's step back in closing, a little more than a minute left. i want you to both assess the political moment more broadly. i start by looking at the president's handling of big issues. his poll numbers have dropped dramatically. if you ask the american people do you approve of how the president's handling the economy, 49% say yes. health care down to 44%. the budget deficit, 36%. and having looking at these numbers, you have charlie cook, who is a noted public pollster and campaign watcher, writes this, "wave elections more often than not start like, this the president's ratings plummet. the intensity of opposition party vote skyrockets. his own party voters become complacent or depressed and independent voters move away. these were the early warning signs of past wave elections. seeing them now should terrify democrats." senator klobuchar, headed into 2010 are you terrified?

>> no, because first of all there's quite a bit of time before 2010 and what this president has said he's not going to put his head in the sand. these are major issues that have been left dormant, no one has done one thing. the health premiums going up doubling in ten years, and he's taking on major issues. >> the president is stepping up. the economy is changing. i think it is improving. we're not talking about the d word. depression any longer. we're talking about and debating whether we're coming out of the recession. everyone is still concern about unemployment number and went they tend to lag. with a look at health care, he is taking on a very difficult issue. trying to work with congress. both houses. both parties to find a solution. and when it come to the war,

that is a carry-over from the last administration. i think he is trying to do everything in their. >> we thank you, sir, especially dealing with the dillies. >> our next guest is your governor, tim pawlenty. >> thank you. >> i'm sure he'll want me to wear that. >> let me tell you this. i have for you chocolate covered bacon. one of our fair delicaciedelica. i would like you to eat it on the air. >> i assure you i won't eat it on the air. this is one of the many things you have here. at least it is not on a stick. chocolate covered bacon. an argument for health care reform in its own right. thank you. >> and up next, the republican view on health care and other big issues on what many see trying to angle him from the white house.

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first a look at what's happening right now in our top stories. a barrage of criticism from conservatives, white house environmental adviser van jones has resigned. he said he is the victim of a vicious smear campaign but he doesn't want to become a distraction to the administration. some say he is an extremist. they point to a petition he sign in 2004 suggesting that bush administration official may have allowed the september 11 attacks to take place. about 500 people paraded through tahoe, california. she was found recently living with a convict child molester. the town also hopes to raise

money for dugard. the massive blaze burning above los angeles is now more than 50% contained. over the past 11 days, the huge fire has blackened more than 250 square miles and cost about $40 million. two firefighters have died battling this inferno. john king continues next for you. we don't need a president who can just read a poll or momentarily thrill a crowd. we don't need rhetoric or empty promises. we need a president who has the integrity and the courage to make the tough choices so america will be stronger and safer. >> that's minnesota's governor tim pawlenty addressing the republican national convention right here in minneapolis, st. paul, exactly one year ago. democrat obama won the election of course, including a comfortable win right here in minnesota.

that hasn't stopped the governor from taking issue and mr. pawlenty joins us at the minnesota state fair. >> good to see you, john. >> you have been harshly critical of the president throughout the health care debate. give me one thing the president could say, could you say okay he's serious about reaching out. let's turn off the rhetoric machine and try to do business? >> one thing he could do, harvard university recently came out with a study that said 30% of all the health care in the united states of america is medically unnecessary, and one of the driving reasons why that's being the case is the fear of medical malpractice lawsuits. everyone in this debate realizes we've got overbaking of the costs because of medical malpractice concerns so he could take on one of his constituencies, the trial lawyers and say you know what? we need to come together on this issue. republicans would embrace that as one example. >> if he were to do something like that, would you embrace a backup public option if they went to the trigger approach that we create a public option? it only kicks in if three or

five years they set a deadline if the insurance market isn't for competitive, if there isn't more access or affordability? >> there's lots of things we could agree to. the public option isn't one of them. the trigger option kicks the can down the road it, delays the inevitable and for a lot of reasons it's a bad idea. if the democrats embrace the public option even in the form of the trigger they'll shoot themselves in the foot. >> what about the thing you see quite frequently out here including in your state and throughout foreign countries a co-op. could you help with that? >> minnesota is a state that has elements of a co-op approach. when they decided they were going to have nonprofit health care providers and it helped a little bit at the margeins, it hasn't solved the problem. it kept the margin in some cases. to say that is the solution i think defy what we know about the experience with co-ops already. it hasn't altered the trajectory of health care costs.

forces should be substantially reserved. america should do only what should be done from offshore. i returned from my fouth trip from iraq and the trip from afghanistan. the administration has defined the mission in afghanistan as to disrupt and destroy the taliban and al qaeda and other terrorist forces that represent a threat to the national security interests of the united states. we need to make sure that mission is successful. the rule needs to be when the united states goes to war interesting united states wins. >> let me ask you a broader question.

your convention was here a year ago. barack obama won 53% of the vote nationally. turned red states blue, nine states george w. bush had won previously barack obama changed. as we have this conversation eight months since barack obama took office has the republican party taken the right steps in your view to repair its relationship with the american people or at the moment are you benefitting from doubts about him? >> some of both. our strategy can't be we hope the other side kicks it in the dugout. he inherited a tough situation but i think taken the country in a direction that is a movement liberal. the country is a center, center right country. the republicans have to be beyond criticism in chief. they have to take it beyond the vision of critics in chief. we have to have our own idea and vision as well. >> he's caused a stir on talk radio saying the president is trying to indoctrinate our school children. >> this isn't the most important issue facing our nation but i agree with a nonpartisan

organization it's the first day of school, people are trying to find classes, there's lots of issues. it's disruptive so they're encouraging minnesota school districts not to participate. >> just the day is disruptive or the president under any circumstances speaking to the school? >> there's concerns about the disruption and concerns about is this going to be done in an appropriate manner? i trust and hope the white house will have a content that is not political and not using the public school infrastructure for that purpose. but i think the main concern in minnesota has been that it's disruptive to the school day and in the era of youtube, if somebody wants to hear a message from the president they could go get it, doesn't have to be visited upon them in one moment on the first day of school. >> you've been a very busy man. i'm going to rattle off some of the states since june. washington, d.c. not quite a state. chapel hill, north carolina. little rock, arkansas.

zen, california, chicago, illinois. i'm not sure i'm pronouncing this right but puerto rico, atlantic, florida, bergen county, new jersey. i could look at that. north carolina, illinois, florida, new jersey, i would say tim pawlenty is running for president. >> part of the responsibility is to travel the country. that's part of it. and then as time allows, i'll speak to issues that my party needs to improve. on both here in minnesota and nationally. >> let me ask you something else. we want to go back in time to that convention a year ago. we spent some time before we knew who senator mccain's choice would be. and from the "washington post," they've written a great book looking back at the 2008 campaign. they write this.

>> in hindsight, did dr. mccain make the right choice? >> i'm a huge fan of it is. governor palin was a remarkable leader for alaska. she is a friend yofl view her as somebody who is a competitor for anything. >> you don't view her as a competitor for anything? >> i view her as a friend. she is somebody who has been a remarkable leader under difficult circumstances. and alaska, i don't know what the future holes for her but senator mccain made a choice out of the box. he is sometime an out of the box leader. >> do you think he made a mistake? >> no. i don't think he made a mistake. >> we thank you for joining us here. he is not seeking re-election. they're handing out these buttons. >> before you go, i want to show you this bacon flavored lip balm. maybe you can bring it back to washington, d.c. and as you talk about pork, you can get a little

lasting flavor. >> anyone who puts this in -- >> available here at the state fair. much of the nation is already back to school about if rest to follow in the week ahead. parents coast to coast are asking the same question. are my children safe from the h1n1 flu virus? up next, the director of the centers for disease control tell us why it is taking so long to get a vaccine and what do you know in the meantime. (announcer) illness doesn't care where you live... ...or if you're already sick... ...or if you lose your job.

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the 4-h musical is a big tradition at the minnesota state fair but suddenly off of the schedule because of this year's biggest public health concern. more than 100 students were sent home from the fair this past week because four were diagnosed with the h1n1 flu virus and a dozen others complained of flu-like symptoms. it is a challenge facing school districts and employers across the country and the world and the early flu numbers have some worrying about a major pandemic. so is the obama administration ready before we headed out here to the state fair we spoke with the director of the centers for disease control and prevention dr. thomas frieden. let me start with your threshold. much of the nation is back to school, the rest will be headed

back to school in the week ahead. based on what you've seen so far, what is your expectation for the number of cases in the united states and the number of deaths we are looking for as we address the h1n1? >> only the future will tell what the future brings. what we do know is that with schools back in session, particularly in the southeast of the u.s. but also in many parts of the country, we're seeing a fair amount of influenza and that's very unusual for this time of the year. >> if it's a fair amount i'll get up and go over to our wall, a fair amount already, sir, we have a heat map that shows the cases. the brighter the state the higher number of cases. if it's a fair amount in september, generally it's mid-october or later in the season does that make you more worried? >> we expect that flu will continue to go up after it starts, but this is really something we haven't seen before. it's very unusual to see flu continue to occur over the summer. it's very unusual to see it

start to increase this rapidly in august and september. so only time will tell what the future holds. we do know that two things are essential. one is to intensively monitor so we understand what's happening, where flu is occurring and whether it becomes more deadly and so far, it hasn't. and second, to be ready to adapt, to be ready to change when things develop. but the fact that flu is here now means that we need to do things now, to address it. that means on the one hand, simple things, like not going to school or work if you have a fever, covering your cough and sneeze, and washing your hands frequently, and for people who are sick, there are special measures as well which we can get into. >> wisconsin is one of the states with the highest incidence of cases so far. i wanted to pull this up from science and technology. this has many americans alarmed, that report to the president said 30% to 50% of the u.s. population this fall and winter could become infected. 30,000 to 90,000 deaths possible in the united states,

concentrated among children and young adults. and perhaps as many as 1.8 million hospital admissions because of h1n1. are you in sync with the numbers, sir, or do you think that is too alarming a presentation? >> what the president's council reported and what we completely agree with is that there are a range of scenarios and it's really important that we prepare for scenarios that are severe, and they outline one such scenario and we are in fact preparing for that. >> let me ask you a bit more then. let me show you the high risk chart. people 65 and older, children under 5, pregnant women, people with chronic medical conditions and people taking immune-suppressing medications. should they be doing something different than the everyday population? >> yes. if you're at higher risk of having influenza or more importantly of getting severely ill, if you get it, then you need to do a couple things. first is, if flu is in your community, and you develop a fever, see your doctor right

away. treatment within the first 48 hours makes a big difference and when vaccine becomes available, get vaccinated. >> you mentioned when vaccine becomes available. that's one of the questions people have in the sense that this first surfaced in the spring. being told by the government the vaccine should be ready mid-october. why does it take so long? >> we wish we had more modern methods of making vaccine, quicker methods of making vaccine. we wish we could turn on a dime and make vaccine to a new strain. the fact is that growing vaccine currently, growing the virus up, growing it then in eggs, a time-honored way of making flu vaccine, which we're confident in the safety and efficacy of, that takes nearly six months. >> as you know, many people get very suspicious and anxious when it comes to this. a new vaccine, rushed into production, what do we know about possible site effects and what do you say to a parent who says wait a minute if this is not such a deadly strain i'm not going to take this risk with my

child. >> well it's not a new vaccine. this is a flu vaccine that's made in the same way the flu vaccine is made every year, it's a new strain. every year we add new strains into the flu vaccine. so the way it's being made, the content of it is similar to the flu vaccine hundreds of millions of doses have been given of. my kids are going to get this vaccine when it becomes available. we have high confidence in the safety of influenza vaccination. >> is there anything you need, now in your new job in atlanta, anything to get on the phone to washington, you know what? i need this now? >> well i think the challenges are really significant. on the one hand we have a public health infrastructure, health departments at states and localities that have had literally decades of underinvestment, and on top of that now, fiscal crisis, so we've had layoffs and hiring freezes and furloughs, and these are the individuals, these are the programs which are really essential to our response, and

essential to public safety that are going to have to step up and do the vaccination and coordination and treatment, the communication in the coming weeks and months, and the health care system, which is going to have to deal with an influx of people who are mostly not severely ill but large numbers, but may have to deal with people who are severely ill, in some parts, may have to deal with vaccinating people in large numbers, and our health care system is not well set up to coordinate. it's not well set up to have an information system that allows us to manage the population's health well and frankly, it's not set up to prioritize prevention, and those are things that make addressing h1n1 more difficult. >> and when this vaccine is ready in mid-october, sir, how many doses do you expect to have at your disposal? >> each year we vaccinate about 100 million people for influenza and the current projections are that we'll have 40 million to 50 million doses in mid-october or

by mid-october. i think although we might wish we had more, it's actually not going to be so easy to get out large numbers and what we're going to try to ensure is that everyone who wants to get vaccinated can be vaccinated but to prioritize those of highest risk. >> dr. frieden, thank you for your time. >> thank you. >> he says any health care plan must have a public option. keith ellison gets the last word next.

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19 news makers, analysts and reporters were out on the talk shows but only one gets the last word. that honor goes to the democratic congressman, keith ellison at the state fair. a big speech wednesday night. a divide in the democrat ig party about whether he has the votes for the public option, whether it is time for the president to say, sorry, we don't have the votes. let move on. >> the option. he could say the public option is essential to reform. he could say that a public option is the only thing that will hold insurance premiums down as we've seen them double over the last 15 years. he could say that a public option with a large provider network will help promote better medical practices, based on evidence. so i'm hoping that he understands the essence of it.

annul of us were on a conference call earlier in the week telling him we really do need that public option. and he said he preferred a public option. so we're trying to give him the political backing he need to get what he prefers which i think is the right thing. >> he prefers it. the question is can he get the votes for it. i want to you listen to ben nelson of nebraska. he says co-support a public option if it were a back-up plan. if it were part of a trigger. let listen. >> i think he has to say that if there will be a public option, it has to be subject to a trigger. in other words, if somehow the private market doesn't respond the way that it's suppose to, then it would trigger a public option or a government-run option. only as a failsafe backstop to the process. >> do you support that? give the insurance company a chance but have hanging over them the prospect of two, three, four years down the road, it

would have a trigger? >> they have six years of a chance. we've seen doubling of premiums. now it is time for a public option that can really help. here the thing. we have monopolized markets in nearly every mix major area with regard to insurance. how will we drive they will down? why do they charge more? because they can. how will we get them down? by introducing three things. competition, choice, and a competitive choice. i don't know how any conservative can be against though three thing. >> what about the co-op choice? you have it in minnesota and wisconsin. put some competition in the marketplace but with less government spfl a public option? >> government is a good thing. government got me to the fair today i drove on a government road. i went to the university of minnesota which is a public school. come on. government does good for us. lets stop this commit many to bashing government.

the fact is, a co-op will not give us the preferred large provider network. if we have a weak little provider network, it won't wovlg minnesota has been building on its co-op for literally decades. if we'll have something that will be competitive from the beginningering with need a public option. i would like to see the president fight for it. we can get it through the house and budget reconciliation requires that the senate only needs 51%. i'm hoping that the president will look at that. >> what happens if it is not there? he can't get the vote for a public option in the senate. the compromise before you in the fall does not have a public option. should progressives say we tried and vote for that? or should they say that's not real reform and walk away. >> progressives should say it is not real reform. >> and walk away. >> it wouldn't be the progressives not doing the right thing. it would be the insurance industry and people in congress

who are beholden to them. at the end of the day, how will we give the insurance industry 49 brand new customers, giving them this enormous pool and yet no ability to control costs and to promote good medicine. i think we've seen -- >> what if the president said i need this. i know you don't like it. i know it is not enough but i need this. politically, i can't afford to pass a health care bill. don't walk away. >> i would say he needs to talk to these people who insist there is no public option. he can talk to them as well as he can talk to us comfortable why should the liberals -- those folks who are getting all kinds of campaign donations and getting lobbied to the tune of $1.4 million. why don't they compromise? >> let me ask but afghanistan. the president will face a recommendation. to send even more troops to

afghanistan comfortable the progressive wing of the democratic party support that? more troops in afghanistan? or does the president have to do something to win you over? >> he has to win me over with the citizen surge which he promised. we're only a quarter of a way past that civilian surge. we need to have that because we need to have afghanistan bull institutions. right now we have to cut these civilian casualties. we have to put a premium on protecting civilians, and that way we can start really to get some local communities. >> you're not sole on the civilian mission. >> i don't like the drone. they're not very smart. they shoot at large number of people without distinguishing and then you get these civilian casualties. i think we need a civilian surge just like was promised. we haven't seen that yet. we're already talking about more guns and bombs. where the people going to to get the wells and schools and roads

and the farmers to get their product marked. this is where we're at. the people need some institution building and we haven't done enough of that. >> thank you for joining us at the state fair. up next, we go east to a dairy farm. an old practice when it come to buying and selling crops. co-ops. now some say co-ops would be just a new wrinkle for the stalled health care debate. this bar is an excellent source of fiber. there's no fiber in this. tastes too good. there is fiber. [ chuckle ] no. i can't taste the fiber in this chocolate. they have 35% of your daily value. hmm. oh, samples. hmm. autobahn. wackenschdol. fiber one chewy bars. cardboard no. delicious yes. s that make every day special. fancy feast introduces an entirely new way to celebrate any moment.

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you see the minnesota state fair there. it's a beautiful place and visit the republican party booth here

and there are warnings with a so-called public option on health care reform that would lead to a government takeover and some democrats oppose the idea saying there are ways to make the insurance market more competitive. try co-ops citing examples across the country of how those without electricity or telephones or services banded together to get what they needed at a fair price. would the co-op system work for healthcare? critics say the needs are too big or what works in rural america can't be copied in the big city. support here and in other cities think co-ops could solve the affordability problem. in our "american dispatch" this week we wanted to take a closer look, we headed to waterloo, wisconsin, and a dairy farm where co-ops are a big part of the family business. 280 cows here, each eats about 100 pounds of feed a day. three milking cycles, not to mention tending to the corn and other crops.

a family farm is a long, hard day's work. with milk prices down, the profits are hard to come by which makes bob taupel all the more grateful for his invisible partner. >> fertilizer, feed, everything we buy is pretty much through a cooperative. we market our milk to a cooperative. if there is profit made the profit is returned to the owners, the more you use the cooperatives, the more earnings you get back. >> co-ops have been around for over 100 years in agriculture. >> taupel has turned to the co-op approach for more, health care. joining a 2 1/2-year-old cooperative, he says should be a model as washington looks for a way for private insurance companies to compete more for their business. >> a lot of farmers who had individual health insurance elsewhere came us to and saw their premiums go down and the other benefit we saw was there

was farmers who didn't come to farmers' health, but by putting an extra layer of competition in the marketplace, their premiums went down just to meet what the farmers' health was putting on. >> all right. >> the competition and choice are the main goals and co-op fans say their way makes more sense than a new government-run health insurance option. >> 85% of the farmers' health cooperative, for example, reported us to either their premium fell or they stayed somewhat similar to what they had before. as importantly, 65% of them had health insurance increase substantially. they tend to be very, very high quality because it is the consumer who owns them is making sure that the healthcare provider is a quality health care provider. >> in addition to expanding health and competition, the plans are helping with another big problem. >> about 12% of our members are previously uninsured. so we think we've had a real impact on bringing in producers who couldn't get access to

health insurance. >> wisconsin has a dozen health care co-ops in all. some hire doctors directly. >> you took x-rays today? >> others use their purchasing power to negotiate better rates with private insurers. the plans are widely accept across the state including this clinic in monroe. >> no numbness or tingling? >> rural areas or small cities might not fit in suburbs or urban america, but he's just as skeptical that government has the answer. >> to me, just looking at the way the government managed the clunkers program and managed fema and katrina and all those things, i just -- i don't want to turn my health care over to a government agency and try to get my round peg in a square hole, and if it doesn't fit i'm caught in bureaucratic red tape. with the co-op system i know the people that i can call and they're going to take care of me because i'm an owner versus just a number.

>> thanks for bob tople for letting us in on the farm and i'm john king from santa paula, minnesota. tonight, a woman raped by the man who have who allegedly abduct a little girl 18 years ago, will tell her shocking story. was a monster released from prison free to walk the streets? wait until you hear what she has to say. plus, inside the house of horrors. see where the child taken against her will grew up and raised two daughters. those acquaint with them are here, stunned by the strange and disturbing news. and her stepfather, once a suspect, reveal how she is doing

now. can her family really reunion i'd? what happens next to the man all of america hates. right now on ""larry king live."" good evening. let's to go cnn's dan simon in antioch, california. what's up? >> hi, larry. authorities announcing that cadaver dog found a bone fragment on the property next to the garrido house. garrido, according to police, had access to that property. they found this bone fragment will at this point they're not sure if it is from a humor an animal. they'll be taking it to a lab for he is thing but we should keep in mind that authorities have that they're looking at phillip garrido for the murders of several prostitutes in the 1990s.

the second thing we can report to you is that local police are could not if you recalling that they are also investigating frip garrido as a possible suspect in the kidnapping and abduction of two young girl here in california. those abductions taking place about 20 years ago. their name, the girl' names at the time, 13-year-old eileen, she was abducted while going to an ice skating lesson, and the other girl, a 9-year-old, thrown into a car outside of a supermarket. in the case of me kayla, police say that she bore a striking resemblance to jaycee dugard. having blon hair and blue eyes. and what is particularly striking about that case interesting composite sketch of the suspect at that time. also, for a striking resemblance to phillip garrido. so a lot going on and of course we're keeping tabs on all that.

back to you. >> larry: with us right now, a brave straight talking survivor. katherine calloway hall was kidnapped and raped by phillip garrido in november of 1976. same man now charged with the kidnapping, rape and imprisonment of jaycee dugard. her husband is with her. they live in vegas. how did you find out the man who went to prison for this kidnapping raped you? how did you put the two together? >> i heard on it cnn. i was coming down stair to feed my dog and it was on television. i heard the name. >> larry: all you needed was the name? >> all i needed was the name. >> larry: what went through you? >> i scream. oh, my god, it's him. he's the one who kidnapped me. >> larry: did you live in fear of him all these years? >> absolutely. >> larry: he went to jail. >> he did. to prison for 11 years. >> larry: when he got out, you were in fear that he would come after you? >> i think he did approach me after got out.

i think he came to my game in lake tahoe at caesar's. he was just parole. he was in a halfway house. and i think he came up and approached me and in a threatening manner. >> larry: what do you make of this whole story? before we get to your story of keeping this girl and having children with her. >> it's horrible. i think it is horrifying. but i don't doubt it. from this person, i don't doubt it at all. >> larry: take us back. howl were you when he grab you? >> 25. >> larry: what happened? >> i was on my way to my boyfriend's house with dinner in my car. he asked me to stop at a grocery store. >> larry: where was this? >> south lake tahoe. >> larry: he asked me to stop and pick up some coffee. >> as i calm out of the grocery store and got my car, phillip knocked on my window and said, you know, i can't seem to get my car to start. it's cold. do you think you can give me a ride? which way are you going? and of course he was going to go

any which way i was going. so i did. >> larry: why did you let him in the car? >> i don't know. it was the worst decision i've ever made in my life. it truly was. >> larry: what happened when he got in? >> i field his hands with a lot of food that i had in the front seat. i tried to everybody gauge him. >> larry: he was holding your food? >> he was. i tried to engage him in small conversation on the trip. tried to stay on the main street. when i got ready to turn, he said, where are you staying? i'm right up the road here. it was again on another main street and i turn. i took him further up and then he said, it is just around this corner. so in, well, okay. and i just turn around the corner and pulled over. and he slammed my head into the steering wheel and pull out hands cuffs. he took my keys out and put them on the floor. he handcuffed me and said, i just want a piece of ass. if you are good, you won't get

hurt. >> larry: what did he do with the food? >> he put it on the floor, i guess. >> larry: up on the floor, and you were handcuffed. how was he able to consummate this? >> how was he able to handcuff me? >> larry: no, rape you. >> he took me to aware house elf transferred me after he handcuffed me. he transferred me to the passenger seat elf pulled a leather strap out of his hair and he tied my head to my knees and my hands were handcuffed behind my back. he threw a coat over my head so i was below visibility in the car and he took me to aware house arena. in a very desolate area. >> larry: were you fearing for your life? >> i was. i thought i was dead. >> larry: then he raped you repeatedly? >> uh-huh. >> larry: how many hours were you captive. >> almost eight hours, i think. >> larry: did he have a knife? >> i never saw any weapon. most of those actual rapes have

been totally blocked out of my head. >> larry: was it on the floor? the bed? >> he took me to a mini warehouse. it was probably a 6 by 12, about the size of a very small one-car garage. and that minute warehouse, the first three feet as you lifted the garage-like door, the first three feet was stacked with boxes. they were half opened with china and stuff coming out. right behind them was a wall of carpet hanging from the ceiling. with an opening at one end. big rugs are heavy. about a foot behind that was another wall of carpet with an opening at the other end. it was like a maze. and in the back part of the mini warehouse where he had me, he had it set up to keep someone for a while. he had a mattress. >> larry: you're a pretty good observer. >> i only saw this on the way out. i had to go back in and get dressed. so i went in and out. >> larry: you two are married

seven years, right? >> right. >> larry: when you met her, did she tell you all about that. >> yes. >> larry: so you knew this all along. how did that make you feel? did it affect you at all? >> i don't know if it was just something where you know what she went through and nothing you can do except support. be there for her. >> larry: by the way, kate has written an amazing article for us. go to cnn.com/larryking. but i did. you need to talk to your doctor about aspirin. you need to be your own advocate. be sure to talk to your doctor before you begin an aspirin regimen. you take care of your kids, now it's time to take care of yourself. a tornado hits, air life denver takes off... their night-vision goggles keeping the rescue mission safe... and powering those goggles-- the only battery air life trusts: duracell. trusted everywhere.

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>> larry: back with kathryn callaway hall and her husband, jim. how long were you in his capture? >> just about eight hours. >> larry: continuously raped all that time? >> yes. >> larry: did he hit you? >> he did not. but like i said, i pretty much blocked out the rape part, and i tend to think he didn't hurt me, but i had bruises and scratches all over me. they took pictures at the hospital. i don't remember it, though. >> larry: how did you get out? >> a policeman happened to save me. >> larry: how? >> it was his beat, the mini warehouse area was his beat, and he happened to notice phillip had lost the key to the mini warehouse in my car. and he had jimmied the lock with my crow bar. and he locked it from the inside. and so the policeman came around with a flashlight, shining his

light on each individual lock, and saw that one was picked, and he investigated. he banged on the door. >> larry: and what did -- did phillip answer the door? >> phillip went out to answer the door and came back in and said it's the heat, am i going to have to tie you up or are you going to be good? and i said no, i've been good, don't tie me up. so he went out there with the receipt, and i sat there for a minute, and i thought if there is a policeman out there, i have to try. >> larry: what did you do? >> i went crashing through, over under the rugs, over the boxes. right out into the parking area where the policeman was. completely naked. >> larry: whoa. and the cop immediately what? >> he looked at me like i was crazy and phillip looked at me like i was crazy, and i said help me, help me, please. and phillip said -- he said what's going on? and phillip said this is my girlfriend, we're in there partying. it's no big deal. i said i'm not, keep him away from me. and finally, the policeman said go back in and get dressed, because it was november, and i

was freezing, and there was snow on the ground. >> larry: you had no clothes on? >> i had no clothes on. so he let me go back in and get dressed and as i was putting on my jeans, i had one shoe, one sock on and jeans on. that was it. phillip came back through, and the policeman let him come back through, out of his sight. i thought, oh, my god, he's going to take me hostage. and he came back to beg me not to turn him in. of he said please, please, don't turn me in. and i stayed out of his reach, i said okay, okay. i won't. and ran back out. >> larry: and turned him? >> yeah and turned him in. >> larry: now, he went to jail for that, right? >> he did. >> larry: did you testify at his trial? >> i did. i did. >> larry: was that hard to do? you foe, he's sitting there. >> you know, i didn't look at him. it wasn't hard. i just got up and told my story. that's all. >> larry: he was sentenced to how long? >> he was sentenced to, if i remember, it was 50 to life on the rape, and life on the kidnap. >> larry: so he's in jail, you felt comfortable, you go on with

your life, right? >> actually, yeah, i never did quite feel comfortable. it takes a long time to overcome something like this. >> larry: what prison was he in, san quentin? >> i think leavenworth. i'm be not sure. >> larry: oh, it was federal? >> yeah, it was federal. >> larry: it was federal on the kidnapping. >> he ended up in lompoc. >> larry: how did he get out? >> because he approached me on my roulette wheel at work. >> larry: so you knew he was out. >> i had no idea he was out. i thought he was on parole for at least another six years, and in fact we were told his projected release time was 2006. >> larry: so when you saw him out, did you call people and say -- >> i did. uh-huh. i called my pit boss -- >> larry: in vegas where you work. >> right. and i had security card him, but it wasn't the right i.d., but that didn't surprise me. >> larry: who told you, yes, that's him, he's out? >> i got on the phone on my breaks and started calling. i called lompoc penitentiary, they said he had been released

to san francisco city jail, pending parole, i called them. they said he's in oakland halfway house. i called them, they said here's his parole officer's number. so i made an appointment. >> larry: and have you lived in fear ever since? >> yes. >> larry: how many years ago was that that he got out? >> he got out in '88. >> larry: so you've been living in fear -- 21 years. >> yes. especially the first five years. i just knew he was hunting me. i just knew he was. >> she was still working in tahoe though when he approached. >> i was in the same place, doing the same thing under the same name. so i just decided to leave tahoe and disappear. >> larry: so you couldn't twitter, you couldn't put your facebook or nothing, right? >> huh-uh. no. >> never has. >> larry: change your name at all? >> when i got married, yeah. >> larry: why is katie speaking out? we'll be right back. for just nine dollars. back to school costs less at walmart.

save money. live better. walmart. great looking skin... it's in the dna. [ female announcer ] new regenerist dna cream with spf 25 doesn't just correct. it helps protect your dna without a $200 department store price tag. olay regenerist. >> larry: jim just told me something interesting. he has told many of his friends to tune in tonight to this program, but didn't tell them

why, right? >> i didn't, no. >> larry: so they are learning for the first time that your wife was previously kept and attacked for eight hours by this alleged kidnapper of this woman who had two girls with her. >> that's correct. and my family didn't know either. my two brothers and my sister did not know. and my father had a very small part of the story. but -- my sister didn't know, my brothers -- >> larry: you have a son, don't you, kathryn? >> i do. >> larry: you had him at the time of this, right? >> uh-huh. >> larry: how did he react to all of this? >> he was very young. he acted out by going to school and getting into fights, and because he didn't know why mommy was crying all of the time. >> larry: did you eventually tell him the story? >> he knew it. he knew it as much as he could understand it at the different ages, you know, he's always known it. but he acted out in his own way. >> larry: so you have lived with

this all these years. >> uh-huh. >> larry: he's out now and you're living in fear? >> yes. >> larry: daily? >> yes. i try not to let it rule my life, but it's always just there under the surface. >> larry: so in a sense, this is weird, but as weird as it is, this story, there is some relief for you. >> there is absolutely relief. absolute relief. >> yes. she is free again. >> larry: never going to bother you again. >> that's right. >> and i haven't even begun to feel that -- you know, what that's going to mean to me, because of all of the media. >> larry: why are you here tonight? >> because i want to -- i want -- because i just want to claim my name back. i want to claim my identity. i want to -- i just want to be able to live out loud. >> and we wanted to support jaycee and her family so badly. >> yes. >> with what they're going through. >> larry: the victim? >> the victim and her family and carl and terry and come out here and tell them how much we're behind them and with them. and say thank you especially to the two ladies who were the two officers at berkeley. >> larry: have you talked to carl? >> no, i haven't. >> larry: well, you're going to

now. >> oh, good. >> larry: the stepfather is next. don't go away.

>> larry: he witnessed the abduction in 1991 and for a time was a suspect in the case. what are your feelings as you watch and listen to katie? >> i feel sorry for her.

i'm a victim myself watching the kidnapping. i know how she feels. >> larry: first, obviously, how is your step daughter doing? >> she's doing good. i don't get a report every day. i've been gone for a week doing these shows and everything. and she's doing good. >> larry: have you talked to her? >> i have not. >> you have not talk to her. >> no. she's with a group. they're getting adjusted and my wife and daughter are up there. it's going real slow. i mean, i don't need to be involved in this and disrupt anything. >> larry: what does your wife tell you? >> she's the happiest woman in the world. >> larry: what does she tell you about how your step daughter is doing? >> i'm kind of out of the loop out here, because they don't want to tell me too much, because i'm doing tv shows, and we don't discuss it too much. she says she looks great, looks really young for being 29 years old, almost looks the same as when she was kidnapped.

and she's healthy and she's smart, you know. >> larry: what about her children? >> they're okay. they're also smart. i don't know if they've -- what education they have or whatever, but she says they're smart. they're smart kids. >> larry: do you have any fear of the stockholm syndrome, which is the captor suddenly sides with -- the person captured sides with the captor. >> i'm sure it happened. i know jaycee very well. she is a mellow person. she is just a sweet kid, never got mad, she is not angry, you know. if this was my other daughter, my other daughter, she wouldn't be here. she would be climbing that fence every day. but jaycee adjusted to this, that's why she is alive. so the same way she adjusted, i think she can get over this, because it's going to be behind her. i think it may take years, but i think she's going to get over this. >> larry: how long were you a suspect? >> well, i talked today, i thought i was a suspect basically until tuesday when they found her. but i find out from the police that i was a suspect for

basically 90 days. but nobody told me that. >> larry: you were the one reporting her being missing, right? >> i'm the stepfather, i reported -- the last person to see her. but nobody told me after 90 days i was no longer a suspect. so these last 18 years, you know. >> larry: okay. so this is interesting. katie is living in fear for all these years, once she finds out he's in prison. and you're living all these years as a suspect. >> well, sure. you know, i was the last one to see her. nobody told me i wasn't a suspect. it didn't bother me, i just wanted to get jaycee back. what they thought of me didn't matter. my life was basically like her, ruined. i'm separated now, my marriage broke up. you know, it's just devastating. people can't understand, they say when is jaycee going to come meet you? this is going to take a long time. this is going to take years. like, she is still suffering, you can tell by looking at her. >> larry: yeah. are you still suffering, katie?

>> um, no. >> larry: no? that's over? >> that's over. >> larry: so you are suffering with fear of him coming back at you. how long did it take you to get over the rapes? >> it took -- it took me a good two years. >> larry: carl and jaycee's mother went on "america's most wanted" back in 1991 to appeal for help. watch. >> we do feel she is alive. i feel her in my heart. that's what keeps me going. >> and this was her whole goal from the start. we have done interviews from day one, and to get her picture out there. this is our job right now to get her picture out there and get the interviews to get her back. >> larry: carl, what do you make of this guy? >> he's an animal. just cares about himself. doesn't care about anybody else. he has ruined people's lives and now he says his life has changed and he's happy, and he's, you know, done all this for himself, and he's a christian and stuff.

but he has ruined a lot of people's lives. my whole family, my sister, my mother, my brother passed away. he's affected all of our lives by being a victim here. he's destroyed a lot of lives. >> larry: so how and why did phillip garrido get out of prison? our next guest may have the answer. stay with us. but those days are back-back-back-back-back gone! i'm chris berman, and i lost 41 pounds with nutrisystem. just order nutrisystem for men today to get four weeks of awesome food, and learn how to get three extra weeks free. let's go to the highlights. mike "all i ate was golic bread": down, 51 pounds. don "blue suede" shula: down 32 pounds. dan "glam man" marino: lost 22 pounds. guys, you can do this. you'll get four weeks of satisfying meals, for less than 12 bucks a day. that's 140 rib-sticking meals. my goal was 40 pounds, and look, he could...go...all...the...way!

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"larry king live" will resume in just a moment.

first, bowing to a barrage of criticism from conservatives, van jones it's has resigned. he says he is the victim of a vicious smear campaign but he doesn't want to become a distract to the administration. conservatives say jones is an extremist. they point to a petition he signed in 2004, suggesting that bush administration official may have allowed the september 11 attacks to take place. about 500 people paraded through south lake tahoe, california, this afternoon, celebrating jaycee dugard. she was kidnapped 18 years ago and found recently wlifg a convicted child molester. the town hopes to raise money for dugard and the two daughters she reportedly had with her captor. big trouble for shawn merriman. his girl, reality tv star tila tequila reports that he physically restrain her from leaving a home before dawn this morning. police arrested the 25-year-old linebacker and he was book into jail on one count of battery and

one count of false imprisonment. tequila stars in an mtv reality dating show. "larry king live" back next for you. a caller to our 911 dispatch offered that there were tents in the neighbor's backyard, that people were living in them, and that there were young children. >> larry: it gets weirder and weirder. katie hall and jim hall with us here in l.a., and carl probin, the stepfather of jaycee dugard, and scott turnin, california department of corrections and rehabilitation. obvious, scott, why was phillip garrido paroled? >> he completed his sentence both with the feds for the kidnapping charge, he was transferred to the nevada department of corrections for the rape charge.

he was released from that sentence in on our interstate compact agreement, which is typical, he was transferred to california for his parole supervision. >> larry: was he, therefore, a good prisoner? >> i don't know about his history with the feds in nevada, but i know while he was on parole, he was compliant with his terms of parole. >> larry: in retrospect, obviously, he shouldn't have been paroled. but are you saying there is no way -- he had to be paroled? >> i believe it was consistent with the law in nevada. and certainly our parole supervision, nevada has lifetime parole for sex offenders. we do not. so he would be on lifetime parole with the department of corrections and rehabilitation. >> larry: would you change the law in any way based on this? >> you know, this is obviously a very serious crime that was committed. i leave that up to lawmakers and the governor.

>> larry: what did the parole supervision entail? >> regular visits to both his house and then the offender would have to report to the parole office, enter narcotic testing and compliance with some parole programs. >> larry: people went to his house and didn't find anything based on all of the stuff we have seen? >> you know, larry, every report right now suggests that this was so well concealed that anybody just would not have been able to see it. i know that the parole agent involved in this case and the details are still being kept, just so we don't in any way jeopardize the prosecution of this case. he acted with real due diligence. i'm very proud of my parole officer in this case. the fact of the matter is, the neighbors for 18 years didn't see it. neighbors that actually had been in the backyard hadn't seen it. of so, you know, it was significantly concealed. >> larry: kate, do you have any question, katie, you want to ask

scott? >> when phillip was paroled, i made an appointment with -- >> larry: he's right there. >> i made an appointment with this parole officer at the time, and he told me, he said that what do you want me to tell you, that he's well? he's not. he's a sick puppy. we're sure he's going to do this again, but we're pretty sure it's not directed at you. >> well, there is no doubt that this monster had some significant mental health issues. and you know, that's why he was on parole supervision for life. >> larry: carl, anything you want to ask scott? >> yes, i heard he was back in prison in 1999 and served some more time. is that true or not? >> i believe that, no, not in '99. when he came to our parole supervision, he had no revocations, was not returned to california prison at all. >> larry: based on all we have learned, scott, what changes would you recommend in the system? >> well, i can tell you right now, larry that, we are doing everything we can to review the case and the circumstances and see what policy changes might be

necessary. the parole agent in this case did perform his duties appropriately. but we will, of course, take best lessons from this, and see if there's some policy changes that might be necessary. but our focus right now is in the full prosecution with the other jurisdictions to prosecute this parolee to the fullest extent to the law and make sure he doesn't see the light of day again. >> larry: thank you, scott kiernan, undersecretary of operations, california department of corrections and rehabilitation. two men who did business with garrido, and the girls tell us first-hand what they're like. next.

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katie, jim and carl remain here on "larry king live." joining us in it berkeley, california is tim allen. he did business with the alleged kidnapper for ten years, and saw the girls on a few occasions. ben dahldro has done business with garrido for six years, met jaycee then known as alyssa several times. tim, what kind of business are

you in? what did you have to do with them? >> we're a glass and window contractor. we have a showroom and warehouse located in pittsburg, california. >> larry: and what did garrido do for you? >> we would do all of our printing supplies, envelopes, letterhead, business cards, anything we needed printed, coupons. >> larry: and where did he do this? at his house? >> yeah, he came in -- actually, it's probably been over ten years. he came in in the mid-'90s and solicited us with a flier. and the name of his company is printing for less, and he dropped off a flier and said he could do some printing for us. so the next time we needed -- i think we started off with just business cards, where he came into the shop, we told him what we needed and he printed them up, did a good job, his prices were good, and we went ahead and paid him and picked up the materials. he would always come to the shop to do that. >> larry: and ben, what kind of business did you do with him?

>> at one time we had a hauling and demolition company in the same sort of thing, coupons or fliers or brochures we would work up for our new advertising idea we wanted to pursue. they would be the ones that would work up the artwork and get us through, and so we would go from there and they would deliver cards or we would pick them up, depending on schedules. >> larry: ben, did you meet with then who was known as alyssa who we know now as jaycee? >> yes, i did. >> larry: what was she like? >> very polite and professional. just a nice young lady. >> larry: did she do the printing? >> you know, i got the impression that she was the -- she was the brains in the business. and i mean that in -- when you would call up to order something, it would be phillip on the phone, and you would hear him talking to whom he called alyssa. and he would -- he would basically confer what i would say to her, and she would send over a proof or correspondence with e-mail from her.

on several occasions, i talked with her, as well. and she -- i always got the impression that she was the one doing the design and the artwork. >> larry: tim, do you have any relationship with her? >> no, i never met alyssa. i just met his other two younger daughters, i guess her children. >> larry: how old were they when you met them? >> i'm thinking approximately, my memory is vague, but i think it was about 18 months ago to 2 years ago. he brought them in on two or three occasions, but the last time he brought them in it really sticks in my mind. he brought them in and just walked into my shop like, you know, he was picking up materials or delivering stuff and he said, i want you to meet my daughters, and so i walked out from behind the counter to the front door there where they were and i shook hands with both of them and he introduced them to me. >> larry: how old did they seem to be? >> one was about maybe eight or ten inches taller than the other one.

i would guess to be about 11 and 14. something like that. >> larry: were they well-mannered, were they nice? >> yeah, they were very, very shy. but we get children in the shop all the time. some are real wild and run around and others are quiet and calm. and these two girls were very calm. they were very well-mannered, and they kind of just stayed right there by phil's side. but they did stick out their hands, and he introduced me and it seemed like a normal situation. >> larry: carl, does it seem to you that your step daughter seemed to have completely adopted a new life? >> she did. she did. like i say, she was a very mellow kid, and this doesn't surprise me at all. you have to know her personality. >> larry: how do you react, katie? >> to? >> larry: what you're learning here? >> i think it's horrible. and i think it's really sad, the poor little girl had to adapt to

her environment. that was the only way she could survive. >> larry: all those years, totally adapt. >> to totally adapt, yes. i'm sure they told her that her parents were dead and didn't want her. >> larry: ben, you must be totally shocked. >> you know, i have to say i'm sorry this happened to her. and i really want her, jaycee, to know that she should feel no shame in the way she acted or in the way things -- i've been asked a lot of things about, you know, why didn't she reach out to me, or why didn't she slip me a note, or why didn't she say something? but to her, that was normal. and as bad as it was, from our points looking in, you know, i'm glad that she is back with her family. >> larry: tim, how do you feel? >> i feel the same. our hearts go out to the family. i mean, it's -- i mean, three young lives just ruined and thrown into chaos like this. it's terrible, terrible. and i'm hoping by people watching this show, and people that are interested in this case

that people can kind of understand that weird, strange things can happen like this. people can act one way in front of you, and a different way when they're not in front of you. and it's certainly opened my eyes up to the fact that there are bad people out there, and i think maybe we're all a little naive, and don't realize what can be out there. and you have to maybe look for the signs a little more than we do. >> larry, can i say something? >> larry: well said by both of you. yeah, quickly, ben. >> i wanted to say real quick, i think there should be something in place where someone like this couldn't be doing business. we had no idea who we were dealing with. there is nothing in -- nothing in the laws or nothing that watches these people to where they shouldn't have a source of income that's not reported. >> larry: well said. >> we had no idea who we were dealing with. >> larry: tim and allen, thank you for joining us. two women in berkeley are the heroines, and they knew something was wrong with garrido, and they took action. and they're here in 60 seconds.

>> was he two people? >> i only knew one person. >> larry: think back. when he asked for help with the car. >> he seemed totally normal. he was dressed in a nice denim suit with a brown turtleneck which was the style in the '70s. he had his long hair pulled back and a pony tail. it was about my colorful he didn't like what you think a rapist would look like. he look normal. >> larry: caller, what do yous about all this? you hear from the parole guy, from two businessmen. what read do you get on all this? >> it doesn't surprise me. i was thinking, when i first met my wife, she was doing the same thing jaycee was doing. she was in art design.

she worked for a printing doim. how crazy is this? >> larry: the whole thing is almost -- isn't it, katie, beyond belief? >> it is. it truly is. i'm just so glad that he is going to be locked up now. forever. >> larry: all those months you lived -- for years you lived in fear. every day, were you suspicious? >> every day -- i had to be. >> larry: you turned the corner? >> i had to be. every -- every day. every phone call. everybody i met. i just had to always be on guard. you know, i tried not to let it consume me, but it's always there. >> larry: did you have any hesitancy about marrying her? >> never, no. we were married after eight months. >> larry: we'll take a break and come back with officers jacobs and campbell right after this. apples to apples, against other top companies, to help you get the best price. how do you do that? with a touch of this button. can i try that? [ chuckles ] wow! good luck getting your remote back.

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joining us from the u.c. berkeley police and lisa campbell is special events manager from the university of berkeley. what happened? what happened when garrido came up to you, what caused all of this? what caused your suspicion? >> actually, garrido first encountered with lisa, so i'll let her tell you. >> larry: all right, lisa, you go first. >> garrido came into our office looking to basically schedule an event with the ucpd, which is customary with anybody on campus who wants to schedule an event has to come through ucpd to determine whether or not it's something that the university wants to host or be responsible for. that's how he first came to us. >> larry: and? >> when -- he came to us on monday. and so monday i didn't have enough time to really talk to him. i had another appointment. but he entered my office and had the girls with him.

he was extremely passionate and animated about his message, and he really wanted to -- he was excited that he had a voice and somebody was listening to him, actually. the girls, i observed in the background. they drew attention because thew attention because they were just -- they didn't fit in. the puzzle just didn't match. he was extremely animated, and they were not at all. extremely submissive, pretty much in the backdrop sxnt acting like children that age. i wanted to address him, so i needed more time. i asked if he could come in the next day for an appointment to discuss his event. >> larry: he came back, right? >> yes. >> larry: he came back with his -- with three women now, right, or four? who came back with him? >> when he came back on tuesday, he came back with the same two girls. >> larry: okay. what made you -- what made you -- i'm limited on time here. what made you turn it over to

the police? >> actually, we did a name check, and then ally was able to determine he had a criminal background with rape and kidnapping, and so after we talked to him for a while, we notified -- ali notified his parole officer. >> larry: did you come over and make the arrest? >> no. i didn't get to arrest him. >> larry: who did? >> i'm not sure. maybe the fbi. i don't know. >> larry: did you ask him to remain there, or did he go back home? >> no. after we were talking with him, we just basically came to the conclusion that he was, you know, a little disturbed and had some maybe mental health issues at that point. there wasn't enough to hold him. my main concern was for the two little girls with him. i could see no sign of abuse. there was something not right about them, it sparked our interest. that's why i wanted to follow up with the parole officer, was to just make sure that the girls

were okay and maybe do a home visit. >> larry: now that you know what you know, ally, what do you make of all this? >> it's incredible, larry. it's overwhelming. i'm so happy that these girls are back home safe where they belong, and that this horrible event is over for them. >> larry: lisa, without both of you this may never have come forth. >> we're just grateful that we were able to be in the place at the time and do the service that we did. >> larry: we salute you both, and i know so does katie, especially katie and jim and carl as well. thank you both. what's it like to get your child back after he's kidnapped and held for years? our next guest will tell us about it. don't go away. ments. at legalzoom, we'll help you incorporate your business, file a patent, make a will and more. you can complete our online questions in minutes. then we'll prepare your legal documents

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>> larry: snd in the stid yo is a clinical psychologist. let's check in in st. louis, missouri with pam and craig acres. you remember their son, shawn hornbeck was abducted when he was he was 11 and held for four years. >> he's turned 18, and if you met him on the street and didn't know who he was, you would have never known what happened to him. >> is he a senior in high school? >> he's a senior this year. east he's going to graduate early. he only needs two half-credits to finish out high school. he's working partd time as a cashier. playing sports. dating girls, hanging out having a great time. >> have you noticed any major impact from what happened to him, pam?

>> no. actually, we haven't. i think it was just because of the good therapy that we got at the very beginning, and we were able to work things out as a family. i don't think he's going to have any. >> larry: doctor, first, what's your read on all of this? >> i want to say two things. this story is so important. first, it's about those women officers who followed their intuition. we've got to mettle and have to be interested. if we're concerned, follow your gut and report it. report it. that's one. the second thing and this to you as well as jaycee and her daughters, it's about courage and survival and resilienty. something carl said about jaycee is true, she's alive because sheez resilient. she's coping with the stock holm

syndrome. >> it's a syndrome that concentration camp survivors have had, rape and torture victims have had. your mind does it. it's not a choice. you don't choose to have stockholm syndrome. you go into a situation like that, and you're -- our minds help us survive. >> did your boy have that, craig? >> yeah, that's something that we've talked about quite a bit. i really don't think it's necessarily stockholm syndrome. i think it's more of a child just getting to a place where they figure out what they have to do to survive. i believe survival mode kicks in, and they know if i do this, i won't die. and that's really what i believe it is. >> yeah. it's only named that. it's really -- this group of behaviors that happens was only named stockholm syndrome because of a famous incident, but that's very true. we do that because we are given good things by our abuser, and that makes us hopeful. >> larry: what tip would you have for a person being raped,

katie? any tip other than submission. >> absolutely. i think every young girl is taught that as soon as they're able to listen. you submit -- be submissive and you survive. you know. >> there's different moments like for you where you ran when you can. but she was also only in captivity for eight hours. oda she's nude and runs outd into the cold. >> those are the critical moments. once you've been in captivity for a length of time, even days, it's very hard. >> larry: carl, what's it like to live in existence as an accused? >> it didn't really bother me. i knew it was coming. the last person to see her, and i'm a major player. i'm a step dad. it didn't really surprise me. i was prepared for it. >> larry: it cost you your marriage and a lot of your life, didn't it? >> it did. what can you do? i mean, my wife was so upset not so much of me accused but what happened to jaycee. the first ten years she didn't celebrate christmas.

when she was taken, she would take a week vacation and stay home. she was a basket case. on jaycee's birthday she'd stay home for the week. it took ten years -- they finally had a psychiatrist talk to her to have closure, to go beyond and something on with life. >> larry: we'll do more on this. do we have any idea how someone like this got to be like this or what causes this? >> you know, he's a sober i don't sober yo path. i'm sure in his history there's intense abuse. most people that get to this point. i want to make sure we realize there was also a woman involved in this kidnapping. the wife. nancy. okay? >> larry: what part did she play? >> it's extremely important. i've done stories on female sexual predators and it's important we don't make a lot of her role. >> you think she participated? >> i'm sure she partite