this is a special labor day edition of state of the union. >> it is a big concern here at the state fair, and at workplaces and schools across america. how big is the h1n1 risk, and is the government ready? >> i don't want anybody to be alarmed, but i do want everybody to be prepared.

plus, the health care flash pointses at the fair grounds and back at washington as the president prepares for a high stakes address to a joint session of congress. time for a deal or more partisan gridlock? we put your questions to key voices, democratic senators. minnesota's republican governor and the director of the disease control dr. thomas freed. then our american dispatch from waterloo, wisconsin. a dairy farmer who relies on cooperatives says reform doesn't have to mean more government spending. and a congressman leading the fight for a public health care option, minnesota democrat keith ellison gets the last word. this is the state of the union report for sunday, september 6th. labor day weekend means more than the final days of the minnesota state fair and summer

vacation. congress is coming back from an august break to find a feisty town hall, and president obama faces a decisive test. support is slipping, and the president is betting on a speech wednesday to a joint session of congress to reframe the health care fight. mr. obama's big challenge is the differences in the democratic party in how much they can afford and whether there's a so-called public or government run insurance option. as the president is fond of saying, if it were easy, someone would have already done it. what must he do now? we begin with two democrat senators who want big changes but don't always see eye to eye. amy is here with me at the state fair and ben nelson from nebraska joins us from omaha. a big speechl from the president. what is the one thing you need to hear from him to convince you he has the momentum and initiative back? >> i believe after spending many days at the minnesota state

fair, people everywhere want to see a focus on affordability and cost. that brings people together across party lines. an emphasis on how to make it more affordable. they realize and i think times have changed over august. things have calmed a teeny bit, and people have stepped back and said, you know what? i know my premiums have doubled in the last ten years and i have every reason to believe they will double again. if you're a senior or going to be a senior, by 2017 medicare is going in the red. so this focus on costs, accountability, on doing something and getting something done, that's what i'd like him to talk about. >> senator nelson, the white house says the president will be more specific. you know the big flash points in this debate. what's the one specific where you think the president needs to say, this is the way i need to be. i'm the president of the united states and this is what i'm going to do? >> i think he has to say if there's a public option, it has to be subject to a trigger.

in other words, if somehow the private market doesn't respond the way that it's supposed to, then it would trigger a public option or a government-run option but only as they fail safe, backstop to the process. when i say trigger, out here in nebraska and the midwest, i don't mean a hair trigger. i mean a true trigger, one that would only apply if there isn't the kind of competition in the business that we believe there would be. >> are you ready to accept that? three, maybe a five-year prerd to see if the private market responds and then a public option would kick in if you don't get more access and competition? >> i'd want to see what the triggers and benchmarks are. when i talk to a small business, a backpack company up in two harbors gishgs there owns a company, 24,000 a year he's paying for his family of four. he says he wouldn't have started the company 15 years ago if he knew that. so what i want to see is

something where small businesses, self-employed and small businesses are paying 20% more than people at big corporations, they have a chance to buy into something. certainly it's worth looking at, but we have to push competition and have to do a better job of putting some rules on the insurance companies. i got involved in this when i got kicked out of the hospital when my daughter was born and she was incredibly sick and couldn't swallow. i got kicked out and got one of the first state laws passed guaranteeing a 48-hour hospital stay. >> the senate has been trying for months to come up with a bipartisan approach. he's called moderate and conservative democrats, and you're one of the democrats he's called recently. does he have a plan that can pass the senate but pass the senate with bipartisan support? >> no, he doesn't have a skoe z consensus at this point in time. he still remains opt mitstic and

will wait and see what the president has to say wednesday night. that might break the logjam and bring some republicans on. i know that senator grassley seems to be concerned that only three republicans is not bipartisan enough for him. perhaps with the right combination of ideas and a trigger and things like that, others might join in the process. >> is that enough for you? the question is do you do this with 55 or 60? should the president slow down, or do it with 50 and the democrats use their muscle and go through? >> i would like to see us at 60. i would like to see some bipartisan support for this bill. >> do you see any possibility for that? >> i do. olympia snow is hanging in there. you see some of the republican senators coming back like senator corker saying we hope we can find some common ground. i think it's a possibility. the problem with going down to

50 is we just have more limited tools in terms of getting the kind of work that needs to get done to help people. >> please jump in, sir. >> i might add one thing about that 50 votes and that reconciliation process. the people in nebraska are concerned we're rushing things through, and we want a parliamentary shortcut, i think they would be even more alarmed than they are right now. that's what i heard during the town hall meetings. >> i want to show you both things i picked up at the state fair. a button here, change, i'd like mine back. hands off my health care. to oppose something is easy and to sell something hard is much more difficult. as the president goes before the congress wednesday night, does he have a policy problem or marketing problem? >> first of all, i think it's a great opportunity as i look at the pot roast booth behind you for him to put the meat on the bones, to give the american people some details. when i look back at this debate,

one of the issues when it first came up, it came out as here's a big plan. if you get this, you can get this and that. americans still struggling with the economy understandably looking at the debt and deficit said wait a minute. i think it's very important that the president steps back and says, we have a problem here. >> you were a governor before you came to the senate. president obama was a senator before he became the chief executive. do you have any advice for him? anything he's done in this health care debate so far that you think he got it wrong and here's a bit of advice for you? >> i don't think if it was wrong. i think they have an opportunity to grab the message now and perfect the message. i think if there's anything that has misinformed the american people, it's the message that didn't outline what the insured public will gain from this. in other words, it was inadequate in explaining to them that the costs are out of control, and that if the costs

continue as amy has said to go at the rate they have, then it becomes unsustainable for all of us to be able to cover ourselves with the rising health care costs. so i think that's the message to tell people who currently have coverage what's in it for them. what i found during the town halls is people wanted us to do nothing because they're afraid whatever we did, they'd be worse off. they couldn't understand how they'd be better off. they were worried that something would be taken from them to be given to someone else. and you can't really straighten that out unless the message improves on how cost containment, wellness programs, prevention, all the things that can be done will benefit them in the short term but particularly in the long term. >> we'll have more with senators nelson and cove char in a moment. we'll sshg whether more troops in afghanistan is the answer and whether the government is ready

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the aarp booth at minnesota state fair taking a kernel poll. that's the republican booth waiting in line for obama care. health care is a big issue. we're back with the senator from minnesota and ben nelson, two democrats. i want to move to another issue. also an issue is the h1n1 flu virus. there have been 4h students sent home from here because of confirmed cases. to you first. are you confident that the administration has a plan in place to deal with this as america goes back to school? >> they do have a plan, but

everyone knows that there's going to be challenges, and i think they've been very good about getting out front about the challenges, the fact that the regular flu vaccine is more targeted to seniors and others, the fact that the new h1n1 vaccine really has to go first to kids and to pregnant women. so there's -- i talked to some of our health officials in smaller counties with their education challenges ahead. the admission made it clear and has been clear in the message so the minute the vaccine comes outs, people understand who gets it first and they're pushing the regular flu vaccine rights now, which i think is smart. >> governor nelson, from your perspective in a rural state and you're holding a telephone up because we have issues with your audio, does it concern you that this vaccine won't be ready until mid-october in the earliest and we see an uptick in cases across the country? >> obviously, you'd like to have it in advance. it's a major challenge to get the plan put in place, because we're not certain what's going

to happen. these flu viruses change as they go along. what was happening in the spring is not happening the same in the fall. i think that the administration is taking the right steps. i think we're in a position to do everything we can do. obviously, everyone would have liked to have seen it a little earlier. >> senator nelson, another difficult issue facing the president is the question after already having sent more troops into afghanistan, his commanding general there believes he needs more. do you believe more troops should go to afghanistan, and do you believe that the president has a clear mission and exit strategy? >> i don't know about the mission and the exit strategy, but we are going to have the benchmarks that i've been pushing for sometime as part of the armed services committee. we're going to have those available rather shortly, because we do have to know what the mission is. we have to measure our progress or lack of progress towards that mission, and we have to determine what it is we're trying to do with the taliban

and make the country not another platform for the al qaeda staging platform their goals, which are detrimental to the rest of the world. so these benchmarks, i think, are very helpful in understanding what we need to do and how we're trying to get that. now, admiral muller is coming in to see me this week, and my first question is why do we need more troops and how do those troops fit in with the benchmarks about to come out? >> senator, here at the state fair and in your travels, do the american people want more troops sent to afghanistan? do they think it's worth it? >> our focus on the state is so many national guard and reserve serves over there. we've lost a number of brave soldiers in the last month. so they understand the challenges. at the same time, they know that it has been a mess there for a long time. the previous administration was so singly focused on iraq that i

think things were left to decay in afghanistan. so the president is really changing that policy with the new general, general mcchrystal, and i think we need to give him a chance. you have a country where people are throwing acid of faces of little girls when they go to cool, where they're trying to hold on to have a democratic election with problems. it's very important to give general mcchrystal a chance to change strategy there. >> let's step back and close here. we have a little more than a minute left. assess the political moment more broadly, and i want to start by looking at the president's handling of big issues because his poll numbers dropped dramatic al dramatically. do you believe of how he's handling the economy, 49% yes and health care down to 44% and the budget death sit 36%. looking at these numbers, you are charlie cook, a noted public pollster and campaign watcher writes this, wave elections more on than not start like this. his party loses the advantage on

the ballot test. the intensity of opposition vote skyrockets and his own party's voters become complacent. >> helding into 2010, are you terrified? >> no. first of all, there's quite a bit of time before 2010, and what this president has said he won't put his head in the sand. these are major issues left dormant where no one has done one thing. the health premiums double in ten years. >> on that point, should the democrats be worried -- >> with leadership goes responsibility, and the president is stepping up to this effort. there's no question about it. the question is changing, i think it's improvinmproving. we're not talking about depression any longer. we're talking about and debating whether we're coming out of the recession. everyone is so concerned about

unemployment numbers, but we understand they tend to lag. when you look at health care, he's taking on a very difficult issue, trying to work with congress, both houses, both parties to find a solution. whether when it comes to the war, that's a carryover from the last administration. i think he's trying to do everything he can there. >> senator nelson in omaha, thank you sir. before we let you go, our next guest is your governor. here's one thing the republicans are giving up. >> i'm sure he'd want to wear them. >> i have for you chocolate covered bacon, one of our fair delicacies. i'd like you to eat it on the air. >> i'm not going to eat it on the air. this is one of the many things you have here. crock late covered bacon on the minnesota state fair. an argument for health care reform in its own right. >> thank you for visiting. >> up next the republican view

on health care and other issues on a governor angling for a chance to evict mr. obama from the white house. that's right here when "state of the union kwlt "returns. ♪ to my family ♪ ♪ i need to be surrounded by ♪ the ones who care for me [ female announcer ] clean you can see. softness you can feel. tide with a touch of downy. ♪ take me home kelly saunder's nature valley. ♪ the place that inspires her to go faster... ♪ and slower. ♪ elk mountains, colorado.

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we don't need a president who can just read a poll or momentarily thrill a crowd. we don't need rhetoric or empty promises. we need a president who has the integrity and the courage to make the tough choices to america will be stronger and safer. >> that's minnesota's governor tim pa lenty addressing the national convention right here in minneapolis-st. paul one year ago. democrat obama won the election of course including a

comfortable win in minnesota. that hasn't stopped the governor from taking issue. good to see you. >> good to see you, john. >> you've been harshly critical of him and his approach throughout the health care debate. give me one thing the president could say where you would say he's serious about reaching out. let's turn off the rhetoric machine and try to do business. >> one thing he could do, harvard came out with a study that says 30% of all the health care in the united states of america is medically unnecessary and one of the driving reasons why that's been the case is the fear of medical malpractice lawsuits. everyone in in debate realizes we have an overbaking of the cost because of medical malpractice concerns. he could take on the kril lawyers and say we need to come together on this issue. republicans would embrace that. >> if he were to do something like that, would you embrace a backup public option if they went to the trigger approach? it only kicks in in three years

or five years if the insurance market isn't more competitive? >> there's lot of things we could agree to a bipartisan basis, john. the public option isn't one of them. the trigger option kicks the can down the road. it's a bad idea, and i think if the democrats embrace the public option in the form of trigger, they will shoot themselves in the foot. >> what about the thing you see quite frequently out here include inning your state and farm states, the co-op. could you help them there and support it? >> minnesota has elements of a co-op approach. many years ago they decided to have only nonprofit health care providers. while it has helped a little bit at the margins, it didn't solve the problem. it helped only in some cases. to say that's the solution i think defies what we know about the experience with co-ops already. it didn't alter the trajectory of health care costs. >> another big issue on the president's plate where in

congress he's largely getting more republican support than democratic support, and that's afghanistan. george will, a very influential conservative columnist wrote this earlier in the week. forces should be substantially reduced to serve a comprehensively revised policy. approximate >> is it time for the united states to pull almost all of its troops from afghanistan? >> no. i recently returned from my fourth trip to iraq and second trip to afghanistan. the administration has defined the mission in afghanistan as to disrupt and destroy the taliban and al qaeda and other terrorist force that is represent a threat to the national security interests of the united states. we need to make sure that mission is successful and the rule needs to be when the united states goes to war, the united states wins. so we need to make sure we do those things to complete that mission successfully, and that includes putting more troops into afghanistan if needed. >> let me ask you a broader

question. your convention was here a year ago. barack obama won 53% of the vote nationally and turned night red states blue. nine states george w. bush won four years previously. as we have this conversation a year after the convention engs and eight months since he took office, has the republican party taken the right steps in your view to repair its relation shep with the american people, or at the moment are you benefitting from doubts about him? >> some of both. our strategy can't be we hope the other side kicks it in the dugout he's got a touch situation and is taking the country to the movement of liberal. the republicans have to articulate a vision. we have to have our own ideas and solutions and i'm trying to ovr that as well. >> he's supposed to team with school children on tuesday i believe. it's caused a stir on conservative talk radio. should the president speak to school children? >> this isn't important. i agree with the minnesota

association of school administrators which is a nonpartisan administration. it's the fist day of school and people are finding classes and there's lots of issues. it's interrudisruptive. they're encouraging minnesota school district not to participate. >> just the day or the president under any circumstances? >> i think there's concerns about the disruption and concerns about is this going to be done in an appropriate manner? i trust and hope the white house will have a content that is not political and using the public school infrastructure for that purpose. the main concern in minnesota has been that it's disruptive to the school day, and in the era of youtube, if someone wants to hear a message from the president, they can get it. >> if we look at your schedule, you decided not to run for re-election. you're still the governor of minnesota, but in recent months he's been very busy. washington, d.c., not a state but travel there, chapel hill, north carolina, little rock, arkansas, aspen, colorado,

chicago, illinois, puerto rico key, orlando, florida, new jersey. i could look at that especially north carolina, california, illinois, florida, new jersey, i would say tim pawlenty is running for president. >> he became a leader with haley barbour. part of my responsibility is to travel the country to help republican candidates for governor to get re-elected. that's part of it. i'm going to speak to issues we need to improve on. >> careful answer. let me ask you something else. i want to go back in time to that convention a year ago. we spent some time before we knew who senator mccain's choice would be for his running mate. they write this.

>> in hindsight senator mccain make the wrong choice? >> i'm a huge fan of senator mccain. i think he made the choice felt was right for his ticket and for country in the circumstances of time. governor palin was a remarkable leader for alaska. she's a friend. i don't view her as somebody who is a competitor for anything. i view her as a teammate. >> you don't view her as a competitor for anything? >> i voou her as a friend, and i think she's been a remarkable leader under difficult circumstances in alaska. i don't know what the future holds for her, but i think senator mccain made a choice out of the box, and he's sometimes an out of box leader. >> think he made a mistake? >> no, i don't think he made a mistake. republicans know that the governor is not seeking re-election. they're handing out these buttons. >> i want to show you this bacon flavored lip bomb. maybe you can bring that back to washington, d.c. and as you talk about pork, gets a little lasting flavor there.

>> anyone who puts pork barrel spending in gets a bacon bomb? >> available here. >> thank you very much. much of the nation as we know is back to school with the rest to follow in the week ahead. parentses coast to coast are asking the same question, are my children safe from the h1n1 flu virus? up next we find out why it takes so long to get a vaccine and what you can do in the meantime. but now that i'm breathing better with advair... i can enjoy the zoo with my grandkids. (announcer) for people with copd including chronic bronchitis, emphysema, or both, great news. advair helps significantly improve lung function. while nothing can reverse copd, advair is different from most other medications because it contains both an anti-inflammatory and a long-acting bronchodilator working together to help you breathe better. advair won't replace fast-acting inhalers for sudden symptoms and should not be use more than twice a day. people with copd taking advair may have a higher chance of pneumonia. advair may increase your risk of osteoporosis

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the 4 h musical is a big tradition at the minnesota state fair, but it's off the schedule because of this year's biggest public health concern. students were sent home because four of diagnosed with the h1n1 virus. it's a challenge facing school districts and employers across the country and the world. the early flu numbers have some worry being a major pan democmi. is the obama administration ready? we spoke to dr. thomas freeden. thank you for joining us. let me start with your threshold. much of the nation is back to school and the rest head back in the week ahead. what's your expectation for the number of cases in the united states and the fof deaths we're looking for as we draes the h1n1. >> only the future will tell what the future brings. what we do know is that with schools back in session, particularly in the southeast of

the u.s. but also in many parts of the country, we're seeing a fair amount of influenza, and that's very unusual for this time of the year. >> if it's a fair amount, i'll go over to the wall. if it's a fair amount already, sir, and we have a heat map here that shows some of the cases here, the brighter the color more cases. what does that tell you? does it make you more worried? >> we expect flu will continue to go up after it starts, but this is something we haven't seen before. it's very unusual to see flu continue to occur ovr the summer, and it's unusual to see it start to increase this rapidly in august and september. only time will tell what the future holds. we know two things are essential. one is to intensively monitor so we understand what's happening, where flu is occurring and whether it's more deadly. so far it hasn't, and second

ready to adapt and change when things develop. the fact that influence is here now means we need to do things now to address it. that means on the one hand simple things like not going to school or work if you have a fever, covering your cough and sneeze, and washing your hands frequently. for people who are sick, there are special measures as well to get into. >> we will get into those. wisconsin is one of the states with the highest instances of cases so far. i wanted to pull this up. this is bha makes the americans alarmed. that report said 30 to 50% of the u.s. population could become infected. 30 to 90,000 deaths possible in the united states and perhaps as many as 1.8 million hospital admissions because of h1n1. are you in sync with these numbers, or is that too alarming a presentation? >> what the president's council reported and what we completely agree with is that there are a

range of scenarios and it's important that we prepare for scenarios that are severe. they outlined one such scenario, and we are, in fact, preparing for that. >> let me ask you a bit more, then. let me show the high risk chart here. people 65 and old, people under 5, pregnant womb and people with correct me if i'm wrong medical conditions and people taking immune-sue pressing medication. should they do something different than the everyday population? >> yes. if you're at higher risk of having influenza or more importantly of getting severely ill if you get it, then you need to do a couple things. first is, if flu is in your community and you develop a fever, see your doctor right away. treatment within the first 48 hours makes a big difference. when vaccine becomes available, get vaccinated. >> you mentioned when vaccine becomes available. that's one of the questions people have in the sense that this first surfaced in the spring. they're told by the government the vaccine should be ready, should be ready sometime

mid-october. why does it take so long? >> we wish we had more modern methods of making vaccine. we wish we could turn on a dime and make vac glean to a new strain. the fact is that growing vaccine currently, growing the virus up, growing it then in eggs, a time-honored way of making flu vaccine which we're very confident in the safety and efficacy of, that takes nearly six months. >> as you know, many people get very suspicious and anxious when it comes to this, a new vaccine rushed into production. what do we know about possible side effect it is, and what do you say to a parent out there that says wait a minute, if this is not such a deadly strain. i won't take this risk with my child? >> int's not a new vaccine. it's made in the same way the flu vaccine is made every year. it's a new strain. every year we add new strains into the flu vaccine, so the way it's being made and the content is similar to the flu vaccine that literally hundreds of

millions of doses have been given of. my kids will get in vaccine when it's available. we have a high confidence in the safety of influenza vaccination. >> is there anything you need? do you get on the phone to washington saying i need this now? >> i think the challenges are really significant. on the one hand we have a public health infrastructure, health departments that have decades of underinvestment. on top of that now, fiscal crisis. so we've had layoffs and hiring freezes and furloughs. these are the individuals, these are the programs which are really essential to our response and special to public safety that are going to have to step up and do the vaccination and the coordination and treatment and communication in the coming weeks and months. and the health care shm, which is going to have to deal with an influx of people not severely ill but large numbers but may

have to deal with people who are severely ill in some parts, may have to deal with vaccinating people in large numbers. our health care system is not well-set up to coordinate. it's not well-set up to have an information system that allows us to manage the population's health well and frankly it's not set up to prioritize prevention. those make addressing h1n1 more difficult. >> when this vaccine is ready in mid-october, how many doses do you expect to have your depo disposal? >> each year we vaccinate 100,000 people for influenza. we'll have 40 to 50 million doses by mid-october. although we might wish we had more, it's not so easy to get out large numbers. what we're going to try and ensure is that everyone who wants to get vaccinated can be, but to prioritize those at highest risk. >> thank you very much for your time.

>> thank you. he says any health care plan must have a public option, and he's not afraid to let the president know it. keith ellington gets the last word next. fiber one. i'm looking for some fiber. this bar is an excellent source of fiber. there's no fiber in this. tastes too good. there is fiber. [ chuckle ] no. i can't taste the fiber in this chocolate. they have 35% of your daily value. hmm. oh, samples. hmm.

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19 news makers analysts and reporters were out on the sunday morning talk shows, but only one gets the last word. that goes to keith elgson at the state fair. a divide whether you have the votes for the public option and whether it's time for the president to say sorry, we don't have the votes. let's move on. what do you want him to say? >> he could say the public option is essential to reform and the only thing that will hold insurance premiums down as we've seen them double over the last ten years. he could say that a public option with a large provider network will help promote better medical practices based on evidence. so i'm hoping that he understands the essential yalt of the public option. a number of us were on a conference call telling him we need that public option and he said he preferred the public

option. we're trying to give him the political backsing. >> he prefers it. can he get the voting. listen to ben nelson from nebraska who said he could support a public option if it were a backup plan, part of a trigger. let's listen. >> i think he has to say that if there's going to be a public option, it has to be subject to a trigger. in other words, if somehow the private market doesn't respond the way that it's supposed to, then it would trigger a public option or a government-run option, but only as a fail-safe backstop to the process. >> would you suspect that, give the insurance companies a chance, but have hanging over them the prospect of two, three, four years down the road the public option would kick in or is that a cop-out? >> they've had 60 years of a chan chance. we've seen doubling of premiums. now it's time for a public

option that can really help. here's the thing. you know, we have monopolized markets with regard to insurance. how do we drive them down? why do they charge more? because they can. how do we get them down? by introducing three things, competition, choice and a competitive price. i don't know how any conservative can be against those three things. >> what about the co-op approach. you have them in minnesota and we visited one in wisconsin. some people say it deals with access and affoabilitffordabilit competition in the marketplace. >> government is a good thing. government got me to the fair today. i drove on a government road, i went to university of minnesota, which is a public school. government does good for us. let's stop this commitment to bashing government. the fact is a co-op will not give us the strength of a provider network we need from the beginning. if we have a week provider

network it won't work out. minnesota has built on its co-op for decades, so if we have something competitive from the beginning we need a public option. i'd like to see the president fight for it. we can get it to the house, and remember, budget reconciliation requires that the senate only needs 51%. so i'm hoping that the president will look at that as a viable option, too. >> what happens if it's not there? if he can't get the votes in the senate and the xroezmy before you in the fall doesn't have a public option, should go progressives vote for that or should they say that's not real reform and walk away? >> progressives should say it's not real reform. >> and walk away? >> it wouldn't being progressives not doing the right thing. it would be the insurance industry and people in congress held to them stopping reform. at the end of the day how do you give the insurance industry 49 brand-new customers, given this

enormous pool, and yet no ability to control costs and to promote good evidence-based medicine? i think that folks we've said that we -- >> what if i think that folks, we've said -- >> what if the president said, i need this? i know you don't like it. i know it's not enough but i need this. politically i cannot afford to pass a health care bill. don't walk away? >> i would say he needs to go talk to those people who won't compromise and insist there be no public option. he can talk to them as well as he can talk to us. i think why should the progressives, the liberals always cave? the fact is those folks who are getting all kinds of campaign donations, lobbied to the tune of $1.4 million a day by the insurance industry, why don't they compromise a little bit? >> let me ask you about afghanistan lastly. the president will face a recommendation to the commanding general to send more troops to afghanistan. can the progressive wing of the democratic party support more troops in afghanistan? does the president have to do something to win you over? >> the president has to win me

over with a civilian surge which he promised. we're only about a quarter of the way toward that civilian surge that we talked about last spring. we need to have a civilian surge because we need to help afghanistan build institutions that afghans are willing to defend. right now we've got to cut the civilian casualties, put a premium on protecting civilians, and that way we can start really to get some local community. >> you're not sold on the military mission. you agree with george will, troops should come out, use drones? >> i don't like the drones. they're not very smart. they shoot at large numbers of people without distinguishing. then you get civilian casualties. i think that we need a civilian surge just like was promised. we haven't seen that yet. we're already talking about more guns and bombs but where are the people who will get schools and roads and farmers to get their product to market over than poppy. this is where we're at. the people need some institution building and we haven't done enough of that yet. >> congressman keith ellison has

the last word. we thank you for joining us. up next, we go east to a dairy farm in neighboring wisconsin for an up-close look at co-ops. some say it would be just a new wrinkle for the stalled health care debate. stay with us. need a lift? hey buddy, i appreciate the ride, you know. no problem. ♪ mind if i take a shortcut? yeah, sure. ♪ i knew the subaru legacy was the smart choice... what i didn't expect... was the fun. the all-new subaru legacy. feel the love. kelly saunder's nature valley. ♪ the place that inspires her to go faster... ♪ and slower.

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the sky ride, another fun here at the wisconsin state fair. the minnesota state fair. a beautiful picture here. i mentioned win win because if you lift the republican party booth here at minnesota state fair, there are these warnings that a so-called public option in health care reform would lead to a government takeover. and some democrats oppose the idea saying there are ways to make the insurance market more competitive. try co-ops many say, citing examples across the country of how those without electricity or telephones or services banded together to get what they needed at a fair price. would the co-op system work for health care? critics say the needs are too big or what works in rural farmland could not possibly be copied in a big city. supporters here and in other cities think co-ops could solve a big chunk of the affordability problem. in our "american dispatch" this week we wanted to take a closer look, we headed to waterloo, wisconsin, and a dairy farm where co-ops are a big part of the family business. 280 cows here, each eats about 100 pounds of feed a day. three milking cycles, not to mention tending to the corn and

other crops. a family farm is a long, hard day's work. with milk prices down, a profit is hard to come by, which makes bob taupel all the more grateful for his invisible partner. >> fertilizer, feed, everything we buy is pretty much through a cooperative. we market our milk through a cooperative. if there is profit made the profit is returned to the owners, the more you use the cooperatives, the more earnings you get back. co-ops have been around for over 100 years in agriculture. >> reporter: and for the past ten years, taupel has turned to the co-op approach for more, his health care. he says it should be a model as washington looks for a way for private insurance companies to compete more for their business. >> a lot of farmers who had individual health insurance elsewhere came us to and saw their premiums go down and the other benefit we saw was there was farmers who didn't come to

farmers' health, but by putting an extra layer of competition in the marketplace, their premiums went down just to meet what the farmers' health was putting on. >> reporter: competition and choice are the main goals and co-op fans say their way makes more sense than a new government-run health insurance option. >> 85% of the members of the farmers health cooperative reported us to either their premium fell or they stayed somewhat similar to what they had before. as importantly, 65% of them had health insurance increase substantially. they tend to be very, very high quality because it is the consumer who owns them is making sure that their health care provider is a quality health care provider. >> reporter: in addition to expanding health and competition, the plans are helping with another big problem. >> about 12% of our members are previously uninsured. so we think we've had a real impact on bringing in producers who previously couldn't get access to health insurance.

>> reporter: wisconsin has a dozen health care co-ops in all. some hire doctors directly. >> you took x-rays today? >> reporter: others use their pool purchasing power to negotiate better rates with private insurers. the plans are widely accepted across the state including this clinic in monroe. >> no numbers or tingling? >> reporter: bob topel knows what happens in rural areas or small cities might not fit in suburbs or urban america. but he's just as skeptical that government has the answer. >> to me, just looking at the way the government managed the clunkers program and managed fema and katrina and all those things, i just -- i don't want to turn my health care over to a government agency and try to get my round peg in a square hole, and if it doesn't fit i'm caught in bureaucratic red tape. with the co-op system i know the people that i can call and they're going to take care of me because i'm an owner versus just a number.

>> we'll be here again next sunday and every sunday at 9:00 a.m. eastern for the first and last word in sunday talk. until then, i'm john king, live at the minnesota state fair, we thank you. take care. tonight a woman raped by a woman allegedly kidnapped 18 years ago telling her story. wait until you hear what she has to say. and see where the child taken against her will grew up and raised two daughters. those acquainted with them are here. and then her stepfather, once a

suspect, reveals how she is doing now. can her family really reunite. can she recover? what happens next to the man all of america hates. >> reporter: again, they found a bone fragment. they are not sure if the fragment is from a human or animal. we should keep in mind that authorities have said that they are looking at a phillip garrido connection with several

prostitutes back in the 1990s. and the second thing is that local police are confirming they are investigating phillip garrido in the possible suspect in the kidnapping and abduction of two young girls taking place 20 years ago. the girls' names at the time was 13-year-old eileen, abducted while going to an ice skating lesson, and then another girl that was also thrown into a car. in the case of mikhail yeah. there is a sketch of the suspect at the time has a big

resemblance of garrido. >> the same man is charged with the kidnapping, and rape and imprisonment of jaycee dugard. they live in las vegas. how did you find out the man that went to this kidnapping -- how did you put the two together? >> i heard it on cnn. i was coming downstairs to feed my dog. it was on television. i walked in front of the television and heard the name. >> what went through you? >> i started to scream.

>> i think he came up and approached me, and it was in a threatening manner. >> larry: what do you make of the whole story, before we get to your story of keeping this girl and having children with her? >> i think it's horrifying. but i don't doubt it. from this person, i don't doubt it at all. >> larry: take us back. how old were you when he grabbed you? >> 25. >> larry: where were you and what happened? >> i was on my way to my boyfriend's house, and he asked me to stop at a grocery store and pick up coffee. >> larry: your boyfriend? >> uh-huh. i went and got in my car and phillip knocked on my window and he asked for a ride, and of

course he was going to go any which way i was going. so i did. >> larry: why did you let him in the car? >> i don't know. it was the worse decision i have ever made, i think. >> larry: what happened when he got in? >> when he got in, i tried to engage him in -- >> larry: he was holding your food? >> uh-huh. i tried to engage him in small conversation on the trip. tried to stay on the main street, and when i got ready to turn he said where i am staying is right on the main street. i took him further up. he said it's just around this corner. i said okay. i just turned around the corner and pulled over and he slammed my head into the steering wheel and pulled out handcuffs. he took my keys out and threw them on the floor, and he said i just want a piece and if you be

good you won't get hurt. >> larry: what did he do with the food? >> i guess he put it on the floor. >> larry: how was he able to consumate this? >> he transferred me into a passenger seat, and he tied my head to my knees. i was below visibility in the car, and he took me to a warehouse in reno, in a very remote area. >> larry: were you fearing for your life? >> yes, i was. >> larry: how many hours were you his captive? >> almost eight hours, i think.

the actual rape has been totally blocked out of my head. >> larry: was it on the floor or bed? >> he took me to a mini warehouse, a 6 by 12, the size of a small garage. and that mini warehouse, the first three feet was stacked with boxes, like it was in storage, and they were opened with china and stuff coming out. behind them was a wall of carpet hanging from the ceiling with a small opening at one end. and big rugs are heavy. behind that was another wall of carpet and another one behind that. it was like a maze. in the back part of the mini warehouse where he had me, he had it set up to keep somebody for a while. >> larry: you are a good

observer. >> i had to go back in and then out. >> larry: when you met her, jim, did she tell you about this? >> yes. >> larry: how did that make you feel? did it affect you at all? >> i don't know. it was just something where you know what she went through, and nothing you can do except support her and be there for her. >> larry: kate wrote an amazing article for us. click on blog on the website and read her story. more after the break. n's active metabolism. a complete women's multivitamin plus more for metabolism support. and that's a change i feel good about. new from one a day.

>> larry: back with kathryn callaway hall and her husband, jim. how long were you in his capture? >> just about eight hours. >> larry: continuously raped all that time? >> yes. >> larry: did he hit you? >> he did not. but like i said, i pretty much blocked out the rape part, and i tend to think he didn't hurt me, but like i said, i pretty much blocked out the rape part, and i tend to think he didn't hurt me, but i had bruises and scratches all over me. i don't remember it, though. >> larry: how did you get out? >> a policeman happened to save me. >> larry: how? >> it was his beat, the mini warehouse area was his beat, and he happened to notice phillip had lost the key to the mini

warehouse in my car. and he had jimmied the lock with my crow bar. and he locked it from the inside. and so the policeman came around with a flashlight, shining his light on each individual lock, and saw that one was picked, and he investigated. he banged on the door. >> larry: and what did -- did phillip answer the door? >> phillip went out to answer the door and came back in and said it's the heat, am i going to have to tie you up or are you going to be good? and i said no, i've been good, don't tie me up. so he went out there with the receipt, and i sat there for a minute, and i thought if there is a policeman out there, i have to try. >> larry: what did you do? >> i went crashing through, over under the rugs, over the boxes. right out into the parking area where the policeman was. completely naked. >> larry: whoa. and the cop immediately what? >> he looked at me like i was crazy and phillip looked at me like i was crazy, and i said help me, help me, please. and phillip said -- he said what's going on? and phillip said this is my girlfriend, we're in there partying. it's no big deal. i said i'm not, keep him away from me. and finally, the policeman said go back in and get dressed, because it was november, and i

was freezing, and there was snow on the ground. >> larry: you had no clothes on? >> i had no clothes on. so he let me go back in and get dressed and as i was putting on my jeans, i had one shoe, one sock on and jeans on. that was it. phillip came back through, and the policeman let him come back through, out of his sight. i thought, oh, my god, he's going to take me hostage. and he came back to beg me not to turn him in. he said please, please, don't turn me in. and i stayed out of his reach, i said okay, okay. i won't. and ran back out. half naked now. >> larry: and turned him? >> yeah and turned him in. >> larry: now, he went to jail for that, right? >> he did. >> larry: did you testify at his trial? >> i did. i did. >> larry: was that hard to do? he's sitting there. >> you know, i didn't look at him. it wasn't hard. i just got up and told my story. that's all. >> larry: he was sentenced to how long? >> he was sentenced to, if i remember, it was 50 to life on the rape, and life on the

kidnap. >> larry: so he's in jail, you felt comfortable, you go on with your life, right? >> actually, yeah, i never did quite feel comfortable. it takes a long time to overcome something like this. >> larry: what prison was he in, san quentin? >> i think leavenworth. i'm not sure. >> larry: oh, it was federal? >> yeah, it was federal. >> larry: it was federal on the kidnapping. >> he ended up in lompoc. i don't know where he was before that. >> larry: how did he get out? >> because he approached me on my roulette wheel at work. >> larry: so you knew he was out. >> i had no idea he was out. i thought he was on parole for at least another six years, and in fact we were told his projected release time was 2006. >> larry: so when you saw him out, did you call people and say -- >> i did. uh-huh. i called my pit boss -- >> larry: in vegas where you work. >> right. and i had security card him, but it wasn't the right i.d., but that didn't surprise me. >> larry: who told you, yes, that's him, he's out? >> i got on the phone on my breaks and started calling. i called lompoc penitentiary, they said he had been released

to san francisco city jail, pending parole, i called them. they said he's in oakland halfway house. i called them, they said here's his parole officer's number. so i made an appointment. >> larry: and have you lived in fear ever since? >> yes. >> larry: how many years ago was that that he got out? >> he got out in '88. >> larry: so you've been living in fear -- >> yes. especially the first five years. i just knew he was hunting me. i just knew he was. >> she was still working in tahoe, though, when he approached her. >> i was in the same place, doing the same thing under the same name. so i just decided to leave tahoe and disappear. >> larry: so you couldn't twitter, you couldn't put your facebook or nothing, right? >> huh-uh. no. >> never has. >> larry: change your name at all? >> when i got married, yeah. >> larry: why is katie speaking out? we'll be right back.

>> larry: jim just told me something interesting. he has told many of his friends to tune in tonight to this program, but didn't tell them why, right? >> i didn't, no. >> larry: so they are learning for the first time that your wife was previously kept and attacked for eight hours by this alleged kidnapper of this woman who had two girls with her. >> that's correct. and my family didn't know either. my two brothers and my sister did not know. and my father had a very small part of the story. but -- my sister didn't know, my brothers -- >> larry: you have a son, don't you, kathryn? >> i do. >> larry: you had him at the time of this, right? >> uh-huh. >> larry: how did he react to all of this? >> he was very young. he acted out by going to school and getting into fights, and because he didn't know why mommy was crying all of the time. >> larry: did you eventually tell him the story? >> he knew it. he knew it as much as he could understand it at the different ages, you know, he's always known it. but he acted out in his own way. >> larry: so you have lived with this all these years. >> uh-huh. >> larry: he's out now and you're living in fear? >> yes.

>> larry: daily? >> yes. i try not to let it rule my life, but it's always just there under the surface. >> larry: so in a sense, this is weird, but as weird as it is, this story, there is some relief for you. >> there is absolutely relief. absolute relief. >> yes. she is free again. >> larry: never going to bother you again. >> that's right. >> and i haven't even begun to feel that -- you know, what that's going to mean to me, because of all of the media. >> larry: why are you here tonight? >> because i want to -- i want -- because i just want to claim my name back. i want to claim my identity. i want to -- i just want to be able to live out loud. >> and we wanted to support jaycee and her family so badly. >> yes. >> with what they're going through. >> larry: the victim? >> the victim and her family and carl and terry and come out here and tell them how much we're behind them and with them. and say thank you especially to the two ladies who were the two officers at berkeley. >> larry: have you talked to carl? >> no, i haven't. >> larry: well, you're going to

now. >> oh, good. >> larry: the stepfather is next. don't go away. man: it seems, only a minute ago, we were kids

with little responsibility, zero accountability. our parents telling us what to do... how to behave. now, all of a sudden, we're there, in that role, at that time in our lives where everyone and everything is depending on us. it's a scary feeling, but it's also a good one. especially when i'm confident someone's there for me. a day on the days that you have arthritis pain, you could end up taking 4 times the number... of pills compared to aleve. choose aleve and you could start taking fewer pills. just 2 aleve have the strength... to relieve arthritis pain all day.

>> larry: joining us from new york is the stepfather of jaycee dugard. for a time he was a suspect in the case. what are your feelings as you watch and listen to katie? >> i truly feel sorry for her. i am a victim myself, watching

the kidnapping and everything, i know how she feels. >> larry: obviously, how is your stepdaughter doing? >> she is doing good. i don't get a report every day. i have been going for a we can doing the shows and everything. she is doing good. >> larry: have you talked to her? >> i have not. >> larry: you have not talked with her? >> she is with a group, and they are taking care of her and they are getting adjusted. my wife and daughter are up there. it's going real slow. i don't need to be involved in this and disrupt anything. >> larry: what does your wife tell you? >> she is the happiest woman in the world. >> larry: what does she tell you about how your stepdaughter is doing? >> i am kind of out of the loop right now, because they don't want to tell me too much because i am doing tv shows. she said she looks young for being 29 years old.

she looks almost the same as when she was kidnapped. she is healthy and smart, you know. >> larry: what about her children? >> they are okay. and they are also smart. i don't know what education they have, but they say they are smart. >> larry: do you fear of the stockholm syndrome, where the capturer sides with the capture? >> well, if this was my other daughter she would not be here because she would have been climbing the fence every day. and jaycee adjusted to this, and that's why she is alive. the same way she adjusted she can get over this, because it's behind her. it may take years, but i think she will get over there. >> larry: how long were you a suspect? >> i thought i was a suspect basically until tuesday when they found her.

but i find out, and the police said that i was a suspect for 90 days. but nobody told me that. >> larry: you were the one reporting her being missing? >> i was the stepfather and i was the last one to see her. nobody told me after 90 days i was no longer a suspect. >> larry: so this is interesting. katie is living in fear all these years, and she found out she is prison, and you are living all these years as a suspect. >> yeah, nobody told me i was not a suspect, but i just wanted to get her back. my wife was ruined. my marriage broke up. it's devastating. and people say different things. she is still suffering, and can you tell by looking at her.

>> are you still suffering, katie? >> no. >> larry: that's over? how long did it take for you to get over the rapes? >> it took me a good two years. >> larry: karl and jaycee's mother went on tv in 1991 to appeal for help. watch. >> i feel her in my heart, and that's what keeps me going. >> we have done interviews from day one to get her picture out there. this is our job out there to get her picture out there and get her back.

>> he has destroyed a lot of lives. >> he's an animal. just cares about himself. doesn't care about anybody else. he has ruined people's lives and now he says his life has changed and he's happy, and he's, you know.

here your top stories now. white house environmental

advisor has resigned. he does not want to become a distraction of the administration. conservatives say jones is an extremists pointing to something that show us officials may have allowed for 91nine wu1:0one those are the headlines this hour. keeping you informed, cnn, the most trusted name in news. a caller to our 911 dispatch offered that there were tents in the neighbor's backyard, that people were living in them, and that there were young children.

>> larry: it gets weirder and weirder. katie hall and jim hall with us here in l.a., and carl probin, the stepfather of jaycee dugard, and scott turnin, california department of corrections and rehabilitation. obvious, scott, why was phillip garrido paroled? >> he completed his sentence both with the feds for the kidnapping charge, he was transferred to the nevada department of corrections for the rape charge. he was released from that sentence in on our interstate compact agreement, which is typical, he was transferred to california for his parole supervision. >> larry: was he, therefore, a good prisoner? >> i don't know about his history with the feds in nevada, but i know while he was on parole, there was no history of

violations and he was compliant with his terms of parole. >> larry: in retrospect, obviously, he shouldn't have been paroled. but are you saying there is no way -- he had to be paroled? >> i believe it was consistent with the law in nevada. and certainly our parole supervision, nevada has lifetime parole for sex offenders. we do not. so he would be on lifetime parole with the department of corrections and rehabilitation. >> larry: would you change the law in any way based on this? >> you know, this is obviously a very serious crime that was committed. i leave that up to lawmakers and the governor. >> larry: what did the parole supervision entail? >> regular visits to both his house and then the offender would have to report to the parole office, enter narcotic testing and compliance with some parole programs. >> larry: people went to his house and didn't find anything based on all of the stuff we have seen? >> you know, larry, every report right now suggests that this was

so well concealed that anybody just would not have been able to see it. i know that the parole agent involved in this case and the details are still being kept, just so we don't in any way jeopardize the prosecution of this case. he acted with real due diligence. i'm very proud of my parole officer in this case. the fact of the matter is, the neighbors for 18 years didn't see it. neighbors that actually had been in the backyard hadn't seen it. so, you know, it was significantly concealed. >> larry: kate, do you have any question, katie, you want to ask scott? >> when phillip was paroled, i made an appointment with -- >> larry: he's right there. >> i made an appointment with this parole officer at the time, and he told me, he said that what do you want me to tell you, that he's well? he's not. he's a sick puppy. we're sure he's going to do this again, but we're pretty sure it's not directed at you. >> well, there is no doubt that this monster had some significant mental health issues. and you know, that's why he was

on parole supervision for life. >> larry: carl, anything you want to ask scott? >> yes, i heard he was back in prison in 1999 and served some more time. is that true or not? >> i believe that, no, not in '99. when he came to our parole supervision, he had no revocations, was not returned to california prison at all. >> larry: based on all we have learned, scott, what changes would you recommend in the system? >> well, i can tell you right now, larry that, we are doing everything we can to review the case and the circumstances and see what policy changes might be necessary. the parole agent in this case did perform his duties appropriately. but we will, of course, take best lessons from this, and see if there's some policy changes that might be necessary. but our focus right now is in the full prosecution with the other jurisdictions to prosecute this parolee to the fullest extent to the law and make sure he doesn't see the light of day again. >> larry: thank you, scott

kiernan, undersecretary of operations, california department of corrections and rehabilitation. two men who did business with garrido, and the girls tell us first-hand what they're like. next. you know, the guys who do a super job. introducing the superguarantee. go to superpages.com to find a business with the superguarantee. we're so confident in these super businesses we stand behind their services. you'll get the job done right or we'll step in and help to make it right. sign up for free at superpages.com the new superguarantee making the good guys easy to find. there's no way to hide it. sir, have you been drinking tonight? if you ride drunk, you will get caught... and you will get arrested. can add up fast. so i'm packing my own lunch now-- for less than $3. thanks to walmart.

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katie, jim and carl remain here on "larry king live." joining us in it berkeley, california is tim allen. he did business with the alleged kidnapper for ten years, and saw the girls on a few occasions. ben dahldro has done business with garrido for six years, met

jaycee then known as alyssa several times. tim, what kind of business are you in? what did you have to do with them? >> we're a glass and window contractor. we have a showroom and warehouse located in pittsburg, california. >> larry: and what did garrido do for you? >> we would do all of our printing supplies, envelopes, letterhead, business cards, anything we needed printed, coupons. >> larry: and where did he do this? at his house? >> yeah, he came in -- actually, it's probably been over ten years. he came in in the mid-'90s and solicited us with a flier. and the name of his company is printing for less, and he dropped off a flier and said he could do some printing for us. so the next time we needed -- i think we started off with just business cards, where he came into the shop, we told him what we needed and he printed them up, did a good job, his prices were good, and we went ahead and paid him and picked up the materials. he would always come to the shop to do that. >> larry: and ben, what kind of

business did you do with him? >> at one time we had a hauling and demolition company in the same sort of thing, coupons or fliers or brochures we would work up for our new advertising idea we wanted to pursue. they would be the ones that would work up the artwork and get us through, and so we would go from there and they would deliver cards or we would pick them up, depending on schedules. >> larry: ben, did you meet with then who was known as alyssa who we know now as jaycee? >> yes, i did. >> larry: what was she like? >> very polite and professional. just a nice young lady. >> larry: did she do the printing? >> you know, i got the impression that she was the -- she was the brains in the business. and i mean that in -- when you would call up to order something, it would be phillip on the phone, and you would hear him talking to whom he called alyssa. and he would -- he would basically confer what i would

say to her, and she would send over a proof or correspondence with e-mail from her. on several occasions, i talked with her, as well. and she -- i always got the impression that she was the one doing the design and the artwork. >> larry: tim, do you have any relationship with her? >> no, i never met alyssa. i just met his other two younger daughters, i guess her children. >> larry: how old were they when you met them? >> i'm thinking approximately, my memory is vague, but i think it was about 18 months ago to 2 years ago. he brought them in on two or three occasions, but the last time he brought them in it really sticks in my mind. he brought them in and just walked into my shop like, you know, he was picking up materials or delivering stuff and he said, i want you to meet my daughters, and so i walked out from behind the counter to the front door there where they were and i shook hands with both of them and he introduced them to me. >> larry: how old did they seem to be?

>> one was about maybe eight or ten inches taller than the other one. i would guess to be about 11 and 14. something like that. >> larry: were they well-mannered, were they nice? >> yeah, they were very, very shy. but we get children in the shop all the time. some are real wild and run around and others are quiet and calm. and these two girls were very calm. they were very well-mannered, and they kind of just stayed right there by phil's side. but they did stick out their hands, and he introduced me and it seemed like a normal situation. >> larry: carl, does it seem to you that your step daughter seemed to have completely adopted a new life? >> she did. she did. like i say, she was a very mellow kid, and this doesn't surprise me at all. you have to know her personality. >> larry: how do you react, katie? >> to? >> larry: what you're learning here? >> i think it's horrible. and i think it's really sad, the poor little girl had to adapt to her environment.

that was the only way she could survive. >> larry: all those years, totally adapt. >> to totally adapt, yes. i'm sure they told her that her parents were dead and didn't want her. >> larry: ben, you must be totally shocked. >> you know, i have to say i'm sorry this happened to her. and i really want her, jaycee, to know that she should feel no shame in the way she acted or in the way things -- i've been asked a lot of things about, you know, why didn't she reach out to me, or why didn't she slip me a note, or why didn't she say something? but to her, that was normal. and as bad as it was, from our points looking in, you know, i'm glad that she is back with her family. >> larry: tim, how do you feel? >> i feel the same. our hearts go out to the family. i mean, it's -- i mean, three young lives just ruined and thrown into chaos like this. it's terrible, terrible. and i'm hoping by people watching this show, and people

that are interested in this case that people can kind of understand that weird, strange things can happen like this. people can act one way in front of you, and a different way when they're not in front of you. and it's certainly opened my eyes up to the fact that there are bad people out there, and i think maybe we're all a little naive, and don't realize what can be out there. and you have to maybe look for the signs a little more than we do. >> larry, can i say something? >> larry: well said by both of you. yeah, quickly, ben. >> i wanted to say real quick, i think there should be something in place where someone like this couldn't be doing business. we had no idea who we were dealing with. there is nothing in -- nothing in the laws or nothing that watches these people to where they shouldn't have a source of income that's not reported. >> larry: well said. >> we had no idea who we were dealing with. >> larry: tim and allen, thank you for joining us. two women in berkeley are the heroines, and they knew something was wrong with garrido, and they took action. and they're here in 60 seconds.

>> larry: we're back. we'll be joined in a moment by officers ally jacobs and lisa campbell from the berkeley police force in berkeley, california. katie, from what you've heard about this, the businessmen and the like, was garrido two people? was -- i mean -- >> well, i only knew one person. >> larry: to them, he's a normal businessman. >> yeah, i only knew one person. >> larry: think back. when he asked for help with the car? >> he seemed totally normal. he was dressed in a nice denim suit with a brown turtleneck, which was the style in the '70s. had a long pony tail, didn't look like what you would think a rapist would look like. he looked normal. he did. >> larry: carl, what do you make of this as you hear from these people, the parole guy, the two businessmen? what read do you get on this? >> it just doesn't surprise me. what's funny, i was just thinking is, when i first met my wife, she was doing the same thing jaycee was doing, she was

in art design, she worked for a printing company. how crazy is this? >> larry: the whole thing is almost -- isn't it, katie, beyond belief? >> it is. it truly is. i'm just so glad that he is going to be locked up now. forever. >> larry: all those months you lived -- for years you lived in fear. every day, were you suspicious? >> every day -- i had to be. >> larry: you turned the corner? >> i had to be. every -- every day. every phone call. everybody i met. i just had to always be on guard. you know, i tried not to let it consume me, but it's always there. >> larry: did you have any hesitancy about marrying her? >> never, no. we were married after eight months. >> larry: we'll take a break and come back with officers jacobs and campbell right after this. was it really for fun, or to save money on heat? why? don't you think nordic tuesday is fun? oh no, it's fun... you know, if you are trying to cut costs, fedex can help. we've got express options, fast ground and freight service-- you can save money and keep the heat on.

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what happened when garrido came up to you? what caused this? what caused your suspicion? >> actually, he first

encountered withly sau. >> larry: you go first. >> garrido came into our office to basically schedule an event, which is kus mcustomary. >> larry: and? >> when -- he came to us on monday. and so monday i didn't have enough time to really talk to him. i had another appointment. but he entered my office and had the girls with him. he was extremely passionate and animated about his message, and he really wanted to -- he was excited that he had a voice and somebody was listening to him, actually. the girls, i observed in the background. they drew attention because they didn't fit in. they are not at all assuming, extremely submissive, pretty much in the backdrop, not acting

like children that age. so i wanted to address him but i needed to get more time. i asked him if he would be willing to come in for an appointment. to discuss his event. >> larry: he came back, right? >> yes. >> larry: and he came back with his -- with three women now, right? or four? who came back with him? >> when he came back on tuesday he came back with the same two girls. >> larry: i'm limited on time here. what made you turn it over to the police? >> actually we did a name check and then ally was able to determine he had a criminal back ground with rape and kidnapping. after we talked to him for a while, we notified -- ally notified his parole officer. >> larry: ally, did you come over and make the arrest? >> no. i didn't get to arrest him. >> larry: who did?

>> i'm not sure. maybe the fbi. i don't know. >> larry: did you ask him to remain there or did he go back home? >> no. after we were talking to him, we basically came to the conclusion that he was a little disturbed and had some maybe mental health issues at that point. but there wasn't enough to hold him. my main concern was for the two little girls that were with him. i could see no sign of abuse. there was something not right about them that sparked our interest, kind of a gut feeling, if you will. that's why i wanted to follow up with the parole officer was to make sure that the girls were okay, maybe do a home visit. >> larry: and now that you know what you know, ally, what do you make of all this? >> it's incredible, larry. it's overwhelming. i'm so happy that these girls are back home safe and that this horrible event is over for them. >> larry: without both of you, this may never have come forth. >> well, we're just grateful we were able to be in the place at

the time and do the service that we did. >> larry: we salute you both. i know, so does katie, especially katie and jim and carl as well. what's it like to get your child back after he's been kidnapped and held for years? our next guests know and they'll tell us about it. don't go away. ♪ mind if i take a shortcut? yeah, sure. ♪ i knew the subaru legacy was the smart choice... what i didn't expect... was the fun. the all-new subaru legacy. feel the love. from names like danskin now and starter. select eyeglass frames are just $9 at walmart -

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>> larry: here in the studio is a clinical psychologist. we'll get her read on all this. first, let's check in in st. louis, missouri with, pam and craig acre who's remember their son was abducted when he was 11, held for four years. pam, how's he doing? >> oh, he's doing just absolutely wonderful. he's turned 18. if you ever met him on the street and didn't know who he was, you would have never known what happened to him. >> larry: what's he doing, craig? is he a senior in high school? >> he's a senior. he's going to graduate early. he needs two half credits to finish out his high school. he's working part time as a cashier, playing sports, dating girls, hanging out, having a great time. >> larry: all right. you have noticed any major impact from what happened to him, pam? >> no. actually, we haven't.

i think it was just because of the good therapy that we got at the very beginning and us able to work things out as a family that i don't think he's going to have any problems. >> larry: doctor, first, what's your read on all this? >> i want to say two things. this story is so important. first, it's about those women officers who followed their intuition. we've got to meddle. we've got to be interested. if we're concerned, follow your gut and report it. report again. >> larry: well said. >> that's one. and the second thing and to you as well as jaycee and her daughters, it's about courage and survival and resiliency. because i think it's something i think it's something that carl said about jaycee that's really true. she's alive because she was resilient. she, i'm sure, is coping with the stockholm syndrome. >> larry: she maybe also totally liked this guy. >> you have to. stockholm syndrome is a syndrome that concentration camp victims

have had. rape and torture victims have had. your mind does it. you don't have a choice. you don't choose to have it. you go into a situation like that and you're -- our minds help us survive. >> larry: did your boy have that, craig? >> you know, that's something that we talked about quite a bit. i really don't think it's necessarily stockholm syndrome. i think it's more of a child just getting to a place where they figure out what they have to do to survive. i believe survival mode kicks in. and they know if i do this, i won't die. and that's really what i believe it is. >> yeah, i mean it's only named that. you know, this group of behaviors that happened was only named stockholm syndrome because of a famous incident. but it's actually that's very true. we do that because we are given good things about our abuser. and that makes us hopeful. >> larry: what tip would you have for a person being raped, katie? is there any tip other than submission? >> absolutely.

i think with every young girl taught that as soon as they're able to even listen. you submit. be submissive and you survive. >> right. and there are different moments like for you where you took -- you ran when you could. >> i did. >> she was also only in captivity for eight hours. >> larry: she is totally nude and runs out in the cold. >> those are the critical moments. once you've been in captivity for a length of time, even days, it's very hard. >> larry: carl, what it is like to live in existence as the accused? >> it didn't really bother me. i knew it was coming. i'm the last person to see her and a major player. i'm the stepdad. it didn't really surprise me. i was prepared for it. >> larry: it cost you your marriage and a lot of your life. didn't it? >> it did. what can you do? i mean, my wife not so much me being accused, just what happened to jayc i mean the first ten years, like i say, she didn't celebrate christmas. when she was taken, she would take a week vacation and stay home.

she was a basket case. on jaycee's birthday she would stay home for a week. it took about ten years to have -- finally they had a psychiatrist talk to her to have a closure to go beyond and go on with her life. >> larry: we'll be doing lots more on this i'm sure. i'm sure dr. golland and others will be back as well. dr. golland, someone like this, do you have any idea how they got to be like this or what causes this? >> you know, he's a sociopath. and i am sure in his history there is probably intense abuse. most people who get to this point, they're abusers. i want to make sure we realize there was also a woman involved in this kidnapping, the wife. nancy. okay? >> larry: what part did she play? >> that is extremely important. i've done a lot of stories on female sexual predators. it's very important we don't make light of her role >> larry: do you think she participated? >> oh, i'm sure she participated in. i'm sure of it. >> larry: thank you all. katie, thank you for coming.