inevitably run into humans. this bear was caught north of ft. lauderdale, another dumpster diving in ft. myers. our young black bear is awake now. she takes off into the forest, her home. john zarrella, cnn, 78. tonight, president obama comes out fired up as he puts it over health care and education. as he prepares to speak to the nation's school children amid ongoing controversy. also tonight, deeper divisions in the democratic party as a leading senate democrat reveals his own health care proposals, that's just days before the president's prime time address. and one of the president's miniczars resigns after a storm of controversy over his past. and stunning new developments in the case of jaycee dugard, we will have stunning new details about her kidnapper's past victims.

but first, president obama pushed back his speech to the nation's school children tomorrow. the president defended the speech today before a friendly audience of workers in ohio. the president is preparing to put the controversy behind him as he prepares for a major speech on health care tomorrow. ed henry reports. >> reporter: fired up at a labor day rally in ohio, the president also teed up tuesday's speech. >> yes, i'm going to have something to say tomorrow, to our children, telling them to stay in school and work hard. >> reporter: but aboard air force one, his press secretary lashed out at critics. >> it's a sad state of affairs that many in this country would rather start an animal house food fight rather than inspire

kids to stay in school, to work hard. >> reporter: the push back came after days of critics whipping up -- charging the president wanted to indoctrinate kids. >> this president is a compumuny organizer, he is organizing hitler youth. he's turning their minds. >> reporter: a lesson in the modern presidency, the commander in chief no long gets the deference of office. liberals like author tim wise believe the president's critics simply shoot first and ask questions later. >> it's not just modern media, it's this particular president, he's been vilified as un-american, subversive, dangerous, destroying the country. and they criticize anything he does. >> reporter: the administration initially fuelled this controversy by distributing

lesson plans that appeared to be controversial, asking students to write about how they can help the president. the white house backtracked on those plans and has now released an advanced copy of the president's speech to show it's not so controversial. and meanwhile top aides tell me that today's remark on health care where the president was pretty aggressive and assert tiff is really a preview of what well see wednesday night, in his speech to a joint session of congress. one top aid that the president will very forceful in his remarks. obviously he's going to have to step it up if he's going to get it done. obviously the window is closing very fast. >> ed, which way do you think the house is leaning now on that public option? what are you hearing there. >> what i'm hearing is that top aides continue to say that the president believes that a public option is in their words a

valuable tool. and then they sort of move on to other parts of reform a president himself did that as well today. he basically had one line in his speech about the public option and then moved on to other things. if you read that closely, that's suggesting that on wednesday night, he will make the case for a public option, but it's not a deal breaker for him. if you ask top aides, they won't answer that. so we'll have to weigh to see exactly what he says. but we're getting a signal from his top aides that that's not going to be a priority and he's willing to drop it to get a deal done. democrat tonights remain deeply divided over health care. max baucus is presenting his own plan for health care overall. he's one of six senators putting together a health occasion bill. brianna keeler has the details. tell us more, the white house plan doesn't include a public option? >> reporter: the key element of

the health care plan of senator baucus is nonprofit co-ops governed by the patients they serve. this according to a source with knowledge of the proposal. and this entire plan is based on the months and months of negotiations that have gone on between key democrats and republicans on the senate finance committee, really the best chance of a bipartisan deal, but this was put together by senator but cuss. but cuss. we should also tell you that this proposal expands medicaid, right now medicaid covers children up to the age of 5 and also pregnant women below the poverty level and also one-third above it. under this proposal, medicaid would cover everyone whose income is up to that one-third above the poverty level including more children and those who do not have children. >> how much does this plan cost? and what does the senate propose

to pay for this plan? >> reporter: right now 9$900 billi billion. that's significant because it's about $100 billion less than any other plans that are before the congress. in part it would be paid for by a new tax on those so-called cadillac insurance plans, those high end insurance plans that some say encourage consumers to overuse health care. this would be a tax on the companies not on the individuals, but critics say it will be passed on to everyone that has health insurance. there's certainly debate over the merits of that tax. >> we will have the president's speech on wednesday night, and cnn will have all those details. the tea party express today continued its cross country rallies. more than 1,000 people turned out today to protest big government in joliet, illinois. they were critical of president obama's policies on health care and government interference in private lives. the cross country rallies will

wrap up with a demonstration in the nation's capital later this week. turning now overseas, three british men were found guilty of plotting to blow up u.s.-bound airliners. it was the second trial in the united kingdom for the men, all british citizens. in 2006 the men plotted to blow up u.s. and canada-bound flights with liquid explosives in soft drink bottles. iran tonight continues to defy international calls to halt its nuclear weapons program. the chairman of the u.n.'s nuclear watch dog agency says iran has discontinued nuclear power projects. well coming up, chilling new details about the man accused of kidnapping and holding a california girl captive for 18 years. and after the president's green

jobs czar resigns amid controversy, new questions are raised about the vetting of white house appointees.

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bloom will continue his work with treasury secretary tim geithner on the automotive industry task force. this comes just three days after the president's green job czar resigned. key players are going straight into the white house without any vetting from capitol hill. mary snow has our report. >> reporter: the backlash continues over van jones' resignation on saturday. he came under scrutiny by conservatives for controversial ma remarks. but there were questions into a probe of whether high rankings government officials allowed september 11 attacks to occur. lamar alexander says it's not jones but rather czars in the administration that's really the

issue as those don't face the vetting that senate confirm mes do. >> you're just adding fuel to the fire by those who think washington is taking over everything. >> reporter: republican congressman mike pence is calling for a congressional hearing before any more czars are appointed. appointing of czars to the white house date back to fdr. richard nixon had an energy czar. president bush appointed the first drug czar. some put the number of czars in this white house at 30, but that's under a very broad definition. a more conservative count would easily half that number. but david gergen says the number is still high. >> we have never seen anything like that before. we have seen powerful white house aides in past administrations, we have not seen this many power white house aides. >> reporter: but he says there's merit to having czars.

>> the president does need someone to bang heads together to coordinate a very complicated executive branch. >> reporter: some political observers say expect republicans to push the czar issue. >> it's a great argument for a party that is trying to portray a president as pushing too far, too fast on too many advanced topics. >> reporter: and it's not just republicans, one vocal critic has been west virginia democratic senator robert byrd who began questioning the president's use of policy czars back in february. coming out, a chilling new details about the man charged in the kidnapping of jaycee dugard. also and ana bell star arrested, he's denying charges he attacked his girlfriend. and does the federal government have the right to regulate firemans manufactured and sold in a single state in that story coming up next. anyone can prove they're strong once.

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tonight states are stepping up to protect their resident's second amendment rights from what they see as the long arm of washington. under a new state law starting next month, any gun made in montana sold to a montana

resident and remaining in that state will be exempt from government control. big tucker has our report. >> reporter: there are few states where the right to keep and bear arms is more cherished than the state of montana. governor schweitzer easily won his bid for re-election last year as he underscored his passion for the second amendment in a campaign commercial. so it should be no surprise that montana was the first state to stand and legislatively challenge the federal government's reach when it comes to guns. under the montana fire arms freedom act the gun must be made in montana and stay in montana and be licensed by a gun maker. none of the guns you see here would be protected under that law. that's because the guns crossed or have crossed state lines. but when it comes to guns that are made in the state that stays in the state -- >> the commerce law does not apply. if you grow a radish in montana

and you sell the radish in montana and you eat the radish in montana do you think someone from the federal government would charge us all the way to the supreme court? >> reporter: the state of tennessee passed a similar law in june and the states where a battle with the federal government has been set. the bureau of alcohol, tobacco and firearms has already sent letters to federally -- warning that the atf sees the law as meaningless, quote, the act presents to purport firearms, firearms accessories and remain in the state for most federal firearms rules and regulations, however federal law supercedes the act, and all provisions of the gun control act and the national firearms act continue to apply. some constitutional --

interstate commerce authority. the reaction from the atf was anticipated says one of the writers of the bill who freely admits the law is meant to be a finger in the eye of the federal government. >> that's the purpose of the firearms freedom act to be able to mount that challenge to among to be able to regulate everything under the sun under the guise of regulating interstate commerce. >> and he has a strong ally in the governor who it would seem might be at odds with the president who's very pro gun control, who is also a fellow democrat. >> but when the federal government comes in and says we want to be your dad did, we want to tell you how to live your life, that's where we draw the line and say, whoa, not in montana mt. >> reporter: 95% of homes contain a firearm in montana and the feeling among many there is the thing to fear the most is not a person with a gun, but a

government that would take that gun away. bill tucker, cnn, missoula, montana. >> and in a little twist, the groups which helped write and pass the montana firearms freedom act plan to test the law in court themselves. they want to make sure the law is constitutionally defensible against any future lawsuits from washington. coming up is a bipartisan compromise from senate possible? also disturbing new details about phillip garrido's past as investigators search for even more crimes and 280,000 drivers might have to find another route to work in the bay area tomorrow. we'll tell you why. stay with us. (announcer) take your time to find the right time

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when the president returns to washington this week, he will confront a congress deeply divided over his signature health care plan and with an eye towards their own re-election, even members of his own party remain uncommitted. dana bash has our report. >> reporter: here's something you haven't seen during our summer of angry town halls. >> thank you for coming to my

home. >> reporter: a health care "house call," democratic congressman jerri connelly invited to her her explain how she might have do cut health care coverage for her small business. >> thousands for coverage. >> reporter: connelly, a frahm wants to back health care reform but is wary because his virginia district is fairly conservative. the congressman lament. >> -- why is public opinion turning against health care reform if you have stories like that? >> we have had a steady drum beat of the negative playing on people's fears and anxieties and to some extent that's clearly taken hold. this is the bill. >> reporter: in a car ride through his district, connelly blamed his own party, especially

the president for losing control of the debate. >> the white house candidly underst mated the passion on the other side. i think we underestimated the ability of the opposition to, you know, really initially frame the issue in outlandish ways. >> connelly goes back to his district office to see democratic groups scrambling to reframe the debate and get his vote. >> that was the whole debate about getting people elected. >> reporter: members of a labor yuan there -- volunteers for the president's -- and bring emotioning stories of preexisting conditions that make insurance unaffordable. >> and i had to resign from my job because of my health issues. >> reporter: connelly says those meetings are effective, but back in the car, this democrat says what he really needs is better leadership from the president. >> we need obama to maybe put

aside the cool cerebral part of himself, we need a more passionate obama who can directly articulate to americans why we need health care. >> reporter: conne >> reporter: this freshman democrat knows could cost him his seat unless the president and his party do a much better sales job. dana bash. recently we invited senator orrin hatch, republican of utah and senator bernie sanders independent of vermont to talk with lou about the environment of a bipartisan compromised health care plan, the discussion, part of our faceoff series of debates show just how far we still have to go to reach a national consensus. >> we have a major crisis in this country and it's not only that tens of millions of people are under insured or uninsured, we have tens of thousands of

people who die because they don't get to a doctor when they should. we have a million people this year who are going to go bankrupt because of the very high cost of health care. i think doing nothing is not an option, but my main point is we have got to get it right, that's much more important whether we do it tomorrow, next week or several months from now. >> i do think we have to get it right, but getting it right is not up to the federal government. they have now set up a board of a panel of five people, nameless faceless bureaucrats who will determine how to ration health care because that's the only way they're going to save money where they're going. otherwise we're moving right straight to everything the democrats are asking for, at least the liberal democrats are asking for would lead us to a single payor system or in other words socialized medicine. >> well, first of all, a sing pay yor system is not socialized medicine. medicare is a sing payer system. and most americans feel a lot

better about medicare than they do about private health care insurances who throw them off of health care if they have a preexisting condition or if they got sick the previous year, whose ceos have enormous salaries, and compensation packages, whose administrative costs -- we have got to ask ourselveses why in the united states we are spending almost twice as much as any other country on earth and our health dare outcomes in most cases are not as good. >> part of it is because it's government run. the medicare system is $39 trillion in unfunded -- we're going to turn the rest of our health care system over to the federal government, not on my watch. >> medicare, if you're looking at the average person out there, their health insurance costs have doubled in recent years. what we're looking at is 1,300 private health insurance companies who have thousands of plans in the last few years, the

last couple of decades, what we have seen for every new doctor who has come on board, we need doctors, we have 25 health care bureaucrats and people all over this country know how hard it is to get the health insurance companies to pay them what they're supposed to be paying. >> and the worst health care brew cats that we have are are the government health care bureaucrats who are running this system into the ground. and hardly anybody believes that the government is going to do better than the private health care system is wrong. we have 3 mi-- let's just be honest about it, an awful lot of those people are people who could afford it but won't get it. some qualified for the chip bill, some qualify for medicaid right now. now what they want to do is move into a medicaid expansion, where they move more and more people into medicaid when we have a

rough time paying for it now and lots of doctors don't want to take medicaid because of the way the government is handling it. bernie i have a lot of respect for you, but you know the government is half the problem here. >> you tell veterans in this country that we should disban the veteran's administration which is 100% government run program. that's a government-run program. do you want to expand medicare. >> there are things government can do, i don't think they're doing it as well as they should do. but to throw over the whole private sector approach even though it is competitive, thrown over so we can have a bunch of bureaucrats, getting between your doctor and you, it just isn't right. >> nobody is talking about that, what people are talking about -- >> well, i'm talking about it. >> nobody is talking about a government run health care system. we're talking about -- >> sure they are. >> we're talking about a public option. a public option that will compete and give people the choice.

of whether they want a public plan or a private plan. why are you afraid of that? if the public plans are so much better, people will go into the private plans. if the public plans are more cost effective, more reasonable, people prefer a medicaid type program, they'll go into that. why are you afraid of the competition? >> not afraid at all, we know there would be unfair competition because the federal government has unlimited funds to carry on whatever it wants to carry on and it wouldn't take long -- companies have to pay taxes and meet certain federal and state requirements. >> this is a level playing field, and i think it's interesting that the health insurance people who are spendsing a million dollars a day lobbying congress, putting huge amounts of money into campaign competition are aprayed of that competition. i think the american people are sick and tired of the private health insurance companies who have been ripping them off for years and they want to see some

competition. >> why don't you and i work on solving some of the private health insurance problems, i admit there are some that exist but they don't exist nearly as much as the government run program. >> we're going to have to leave it, awaiting the outcome of the sanders-hatch resolution. we appreciate you both being with us, senator orrin hatch and senator sanders, thank you, gentlemen. >> got to love a good debate. senators bernie sanders and orrin hatch. and other stories that we're following tonight, is annette. >> reporter: tonight we're looking at disturbing new details about phillip garrido, the man accused of kidnapping and holding jaycee dugard for 18 years and fathering her two children. 15 years before kidnapping jaycee dugard, garrido attacked -- garrido asked paul for a ride in her car and then

kidnapped her and brought her to a warehouse in nevada. he captured another woman that day but she escaped. he served just 11 years of a 50-year sentence. garrido was also charged with raping a 14-year-old girl in 1972, but a child was never held because the victim refused to testify. and san diego chargers linebacker shawne merriman was arrested yesterday and accused of choking and restraining his girlfriend, reality television star tela tequila. he was released from jail late sunday morning, merriman's attorney says his client commit nod wrong doing and he was trying to stop his girlfriend from driving drunk, a police spokesman said deputies determine ms. tequila had been drinking, she denies that claim. it's a working holiday weekend for some san francisco area transportation crews. a crack was found in the steel

link holding up the eastern cantileverer section of the bridge. the crack was discovered saturday. a spokesman says a monumental effort is being made to finish the repair work, but the bridge may not open by tomorrow morning's rush hour. 280,000 vehicles travel the bridge daily. and those are some of the stories that we have been following tonight. lisa? >> that's going to be a big headache. all right, thank you very much, inthese for that. coming up, medical malpractice adds millions to health care costs, so why are health care costs not capped in the overall? and the federal stimulus package was pushed through with great urgency, but has it created new jobs? that face-off next. nd if i take? yeah, sure. ♪

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there are signs the economy is improving but the country's unemployment rate remains high at 10.2%. president obama promised his stimulus package would create hundreds of thousands of new jobs. michelle maintains that the stimulus plan is working and has created jobs. >> because the stimulus plan investigated around $90 billion of expenditure to the economy

during the second quarter, it's doing about the same over the summer months. we know that they have provided fiscal relief to the states which actually prevented the states from layoffs and from cutting back vendors and we know that there were $13 billion that went social security recipients, an equal amount went to unemployment recipients, businesses got tax cuts, all of this went to actually slow down the economic decline, it didn't actually create job growth, but it ditd did slow down job loss. we were losing jobs at $600,000 a month, and now we're losing them at 300,000. this summer we expect that the economy will actually start shrinking, it's not as good as a rapidly growing economy, but that's the first step on stable zpags and recovery. >> we have roughly 13,000 jobs were lost in july and you say the stimulus plan is actually costing jobs in this country? >> exactly. it's costing jobs because before

it was passed the white house said if we spent this $787 billion then unemployment wouldn't rise above 8%. now it's 9.4%. and by some estimates it's 16%. that's 14 and a half million americans out of work, millions more who are looking for full-time employment and larry is actually saying it helped. here's why it doesn't help, all the stimulus plans, the $4 hn billion budget amounts, amend it's going to be to paid for by tax increases. this makes any small business discouraged from hiring workers. . house democrats wants a 5% surtax brig it up to about 45%. then there's the 8% payroll tax

on employers who do not provide the right kind of health insurance. all these taxes make it very discouraging for any employer to hire anyone and also for people to work. and that is why the stimulus is having a negative effect. >> you hear what diana is saying, it basically boils down to businesses is going to be uncertain, they don't know where the economy is headed and the deficit is a big drag on the economy and making employers -- >> it's really hard to hear from anybody who favored the unregulated banked system that we had, the bush tax cuts and all the policies that actually gave us this global recession to tell anybody how to do anything about how to run the economy. these potential tax increases that she's talking about aren't having an effect on the economy right now. right now people actually have lower taxes on account of the

stimulus, and that includes businesses. when you give $30 billion to social security recipients, they actually go out and spend that money. >> but they have been saving the money. >> there's been a much better growth in consumption -- >> it's been at an all-time high than in the mast 10 years. >> that's irrelevant. >> if they went out and spent it, it would create jobs. >> diana, do you think there should be a second stimulus package, i know some people, including larry, they say we need to spend more money here to stimulate the economy. >> what we need to do is take the stimulus money that has been passed and unspend, give it back to the american people in tax cuts so they can spend it themselves and stimulate the economy. that's what we need to do is put it in the hands of americans and announce that taxes are not going to go up for the next couple of years, plus we're going to have a payroll tax cut

to encourage employers to hire more workers. we should have a payroll tax cut rather than telling them they're going to have an 8% tax. >> i let you make your point, i'm going to make mine. listen, there's already about $70 billion of tax cuts that will be in this economy by tend of september, including lower taxes for most workers and lower taxes for business. i have no idea what you're talking about. we tried the tax cut, tax cut, tax cut the way you wanted in the early 2000s and that ended one the worst recovery, the worst business cycle on record. >> larry, i want you to respond to this, larry, 57%, there was a "usa today" gallup poll, 57% of americans say the stimulus man has not worked and it might have made things worse. how do you respond to that? there seems to be at least some

resistance to the first stimulus plan. >> we have been thrown into a really deep hole. we had 8.5% unemployment in march, even before the recovery package started to work at all. it's not easy to make the case that things have gotten worse at a slower rate, people don't see jobs, i understand that, they need a lot more help, i think that they should be angry at the people who threw us into this god-awful global recession and the one thing that's getting us to turn it around right now is in fact the recovery package it. it is working. >> look at the cash for clunkers program, this was supposed to last through november 1, and the money was all used up after a week then they allocated more. this is no way to run a stimulus package. >> auto puroduction increasing after the cash for clunkers, all

the economic forecasters increaseded their rate of growth for the rest of the year. to say it didn't work is actually ignore rangs. >> diana, you get the final word. >> with cash for clunkers it's typical of any administration's stimulus program, we destroyed a batch of good old cars and got people to go out and buy new ones so they're not going to be buying them next year. we might as well have destroyed a whole housing nabtd and then built more and call it stimulus. we should give it to the american people and let them go out and spends it without the dpral government spending it two no end in sight. >> larry, diane narks thanks for coming on the show with us. and coming up at the top of the hour, john roberts is sitting in for campbell brown. john, what are you working on?

also, what it's going to take to win the war in afghanistan? anderson cooper joins us from the front lines there. also two big newsmakers tonight, former first lady laura bush and whoopee goldberg. all coming your way at the top of the hour. and coming up, are malpractice lawsuits killing the health industry? we'll have much more next.

we have reported extensively on the skyrocketing costs of medical malpractice and the impact it's having on the health industry. lou spoke to two medical experts on the practice of medical malpractice and what could be called defensive medicine. >> caps on medical malpractice lawsuits could save over $4 billion over the next decade. are malpractice lawsuits destroying the health care system? that is the subject of our face-off debate tonight. joining us, dr. jeffrey siegel, founder medical justice and alan

ripka, a medical malpractice attorney. in numbers, medical malpractice, and let's show these numbers, medical malpractice claims and insurance premiums make up just about 1% of total health care costs, but the a.m.a. estimates it's so called defensive medicine, a direct result of those malpractice lawsuits costing us $151 billion. let me start, if i may with you, dr. siegel. what's your reaction? >> my reaction is that number $150 billion may tweel actual b underestimate. next year 50,000 doctors will receive a letter stating you've been sued. once you've been sued that will change the doctor's behavior from then on. and what is the cost? the cost is anywhere two $100 billion to $200 billion.

that amount of money would allow us to purchase a health insurance policy for every american and have some change left. >> alan ripka, your thoughts? >> i completely disagree. when we talk about medicine, we're talking about saving lives. they're calling it defensive medicine but what it really is is doing the appropriate tests so that doctors and nurses and health care providers can be check on all the possibilities that may be going wrong with the patient. they're not going to know unless they do those tests. the reason medical malpractice exists is because those tests aren't done and people die. you're not talking about death here. you're talking about money. obviously lives are much more important. >> all right. you couldn't quarrel with that, could you, doctor? >> i think patient safety is really important. most of the tests being done provide absolutely zero value to the patient. they keep the doctor out of the witness chair. a small amount of testing will improve the patient's condition and a small amount of testing

paradoxiccally will make the patient worse than when they started. by and large -- >> could you just say testing could make the patient worse off? >> yes, just 1,000% sure that you've not missed anything. once you stick a needle in the patient's body, anything could happen. the lung can drop, bleeding, infection, the list goes on and on. >> allen ripka? >> and obviously not sticking the needle into the person's body and not drawing that blood doesn't tell you whether or not the person has an infection or has a disease or something that would be detected in a lab or blood test. where you're going with that, you're allowing someone to die so you don't have to pay for the blood test? >> i would never argue, let's allow someone to die. here we can deal with facts. for example, if a person has a minor head injury, they lose consciousness, go to the emergency room.

every doctor will order a ct scan. we can ask five basic questions to make sure the patient does not go home with a blood clot in the head. today, in this country, every e.r. physician will scan every patient that came through. one e.r. doctor said i will scan people till they glow if it keeps me from going in front of a jury. >> it sounds like a host of issues. i was talking with a doctor in houston recently on the air. who said that doctors right now are really getting out of the art of examination because they are force d in defensive medicie to run so many tests they're not carrying out examinations properly. what do you think of that, alan first. >> i think it shouldn't be called defensive medicine. it should be called appropriate medicine. these doctors who are being

sued, they've deemed it defensive medicine to put a stigma on it. doing a lot of tests to determine something is not necessarily inappropriate. deciding which ones are appropriate and which ones are not are left for the medical community. and they're the ones who make those determinations. if they've determined that not doing certain tests is okay, they've caused the problem and not diagnosing the issue to begin with. >> doctor? >> well, legislation is being proposed. we're a member of an organization called center for health transformation. physicians would be held to be immuned, given a safe harbor if they followed practive guidelines. would plaintiff attorneys get behind that? if a doctor -- >> would you, alan? >> right now in every court of law i've practiced in, i try medical malpractice cases regularly, if a doctor does not what they call depart from the appropriate standard of care and the jury determines that, he or

she is not responsible. so it's not about us lawyers getting on board with that. the courts have made that decision. >> there's one lawyer who says absolutely there will be no cap of malpractice suits when, as we've been examining here in this broadcast and every country that we have examined, particularly in europe, where there is universal health care, where there's a national health care system. there's no role for medical malpractice lawsuits. and those countries where it is, it's a minimum. what's your reaction to that? >> that's the one thing we could emulate from other countries. we could adopt the british system. there's little to be desired. one thing they do right is lose or pay. they do have a professional liability system. but to the extent that a person brings a case. if they get it wrong, the loser has to pay. >> that sounds fair.

alan ripka? >> our system has advantages. just because people do it other ways doesn't mean we have to adopt those ways. >> by the way, no one is suggesting anybody has to. we're in a gallitarian operation here. we want people to decide that. >> because there are no caps, let's say in new york, for example, these doctors are on guard, as they should be. there are consequences to actions in every livelihood. if you don't take care of what you're supposed to do properly, there could be a penalty. you may have to pay. you cannot value someone's pain and suffering and you cannot predetermine what the costs are going to be to keep that person alive and well and taken care of. >> one could argue, could they not, alan, that in other countries they value life and limb so highly that they would not attempt to put a price on it? >> well, they may not. maybe in those countries they allow doctors, by paying

doctors, i'm all for this, the money to do all the tests that need to be done and maybe medical malpractice isn't quite as prevalent because they are doing a great job at diagnosing, examining and treating patients that are sick. >> whoa, whoa, whoa, are you suggesting that other countries are better at patient safety than we are in the united states? >> no. i'm simply saying if in fact doctors are being paid for certain testing that they may not be being paid for here, maybe we can get to the diagnose zbl . >> i think you're both ready for opening arguments. all this week lou will have much more on the heated health care debate as congress returns to work tomorrow and president obama prepares to address a joint session of congress wednesday night. and we will be right back. stay with us. sfx: coin drop, can shaking

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