the marines take him out, get him to interact with his own people, but few here are sure what side to support. there's so much corruption, it's hard to see what the afghan government does. the marines move forward, however. given little, they make do with what they have. every day they're out there on foot, not hiding in humvees. they interact, they talk. but it's not yet obvious to what end. their service, their sacrifice is stunning to witness. with time, with more troops, with more money, more aid, progress is possible. but the window is short. after eight years here, no one says we're winning. no one ever says it will soon end. that's our special report from inside the battle zone. i want to thank first lieutenant kurt stahl who's been traveling with us all week as well as lieutenant colonel bill mccullough and all the men and women of the 1st battalion 5th marines. thank them for their service and also their hospitality. thanks for watching.

>> larry: tonight, a former charles manson follower who was there when the brutal crimes were committed breaks her silence. >> i was told to go get a change of clothing, a knife, my driver's license. >> larry: about the murders that shocked a country and the mad man who ordered them. >> i started hearing like horrible screams. >> larry: plus an exclusive with sharon tate's sister. she was there as the woman who savagely stabbed the actress and her unborn baby without mercy was denied parole. deborah tate tells us why susan atkins should die behind bars, next on "larry king live." we have a fascinating hour ahead an in-depth look at the manson family's reign of terror four decades ago.

before we get to our exclusive guests, including a former manson follower, here's a look at charles manson and his so-called family. >> one of the reasons i don't want out is because i am very mad, and i don't know if i can control myself. >> larry: 40 years after one of the most notorious murder sprees in american history, the man responsible for seven brutal killings is still in prison, and he has never shown regret. >> do i look like i'm guilty about something? do i look like i have remorse or fear about anything? >> larry: on august 9th, 1960, charles manson dispatched members of his so-called family to the home of actor sharon tate, the pregnant wife of director roman polanski when they were finished, tate was murder along with stephen parent who was shot outside of tate's home. the very next night with news of the first rampage terrorizing

l.a., manson followers struck again. their victims, leno and rosemary labianca stabbed to death in their upscale home. in a prison interview in 1994, leslie van houten described her part in the killings. >> i went in and mrs. labianca was laying on the floor, and i stabbed her. >> where? >> in the lower back, around 16 times. >> larry: the killers left messages throughout the labianca house. the phrase helter-skelter written with their victims' blood. it was the same name of a beatles song by the same name. the possibility of -- ♪ helter-skelter >> larry: is took police nearly five months to track down manson and his so-called family.

linda kasabian, a manson follower who was present at the tate and labianca homes, became the prosecution's star witness. manson and his co-defendants were found guilty of the murders, sentenced to death. the sentences were later commuted to life in prison. at 74, charles manson has spent more than half of his life behind bars. one of the most infamous criminals in history. on september 7th, on the history channel, a premiere will take place titled "manson." it includes recreakses of the tate/labianca murders and the involvement of one of our guests in those murders. linda kasabian is with us, a former member of the manson family. she was the prosecution's star witness in the trial of manson and his followers for those murders. out of concern for her safety, she is disguised. and vincent, los angeles county assistant d.a. he prosecuted manson and the others. he wrote the number one best

seller "helter-skelter: the true story of the manson murders." you haven't seen each other since 1971, right, vince? >> yeah, that's right. >> larry: what does it feel like? >> it is wonderful seeing linda again. i gave her a big hug. it's a long time ago. she looks great. i was telling her that i don't look a day over 90. she looks great. you are 15 years younger than i am. >> yes. >> wonderful seeing linda again. >> larry: do you think about that night a lot, linda? >> yes. i would say probably every day. >> larry: you think about it a lot, vince? >> a lot. not every day. i've gone on to other murder cases. certainly i've thought about it. >> larry: that's the case that made you worldwide famous. >> absolutely. >> larry: linda, what are your memories of charles manson? >> that he was just a very charismatic, beautiful man. >> larry: and how did you get involved with the group at all? >> i was kind of left stranded by my husband. with my daughter.

>> larry: he kind of took you in? >> yeah. >> larry: were you involved with him physically, romantically involved? >> physically involved and, yeah, eventually romantically. >> so, what brings you to los angeles? are you still in there? are you in there? i asked what brought you to l.a. >> my husband abandoned me and gypsy said i'd be welcomed here. >> that makes me happy. >> larry: a month later, after all you got involved, the murders took place. >> yes. >> larry: now vince, explain before we get into details, explain how linda, even though she was there, present, she was not prosecuted. >> she was given immunity from prosecution to testify against manson, and if there ever was like you said a star witness for the prosecution, it was linda

kasabian. without her testimony, it would have been extremely difficult for me to convict manson and his co-defendants. >> larry: because you had an eyewitness. >> yeah, extremely difficult. in fact, even with her testimony, the jury was out deliberating for a week and a half. so we all owe a tremendous debt of gratitude to linda for testifying. because there's no question if he would have gotten out, he would have killed as many as he could. >> larry: before that terrible night, were you involved in other criminal activities with manson? >> no. i think the worst thing i ever did was steal money. >> larry: well, that's a criminal activity. >> yeah, okay. it was a criminal activity, but -- >> larry: were there a lot of people in the group? >> yeah. >> larry: how many? >> probably about 20. 20 girls. >> larry: and did you live in a commune-like? >> yes. >> larry: and did he have sex with many of the girls? >> yes. >> larry: did it bother you? >> no. because that's what i was used

to. a communal, free love-type lifestyle. >> larry: it was a different era, wasn't it? >> yes. >> larry: certainly nothing would indicate murders were going to take place. >> oh, no. >> larry: what happened that night, linda? >> the night of the -- >> larry: murders. >> from what point? >> larry: well, did someone say let's go out -- what happened? from the beginning. >> i was told to go get a change of clothing, and a knife, my driver's license and -- meet back. >> larry: at a certain point you all met? >> right. >> larry: did you question him why you needed a knife? >> no. >> larry: can you explain what kind of power this man had that a person would say go get a knife? okay, i'll be right back with the knife. >> linda was looking for jesus throughout the country. she'd been to taos, the

psychedelic american circus. she thought manson was jesus. she found out eventually he was the devil. but he got them to the point where they were willing to kill for him. he convinced them that he was jesus christ and the devil all wrapped up into one person. he had total command over them. when he told her to go along, she didn't feel she was in any position to say no. but the point that's being made very, very clearly, she thought they were going to go on another creepy crawly mission. she had no idea what they were planning. >> larry: what's a creepy crawly mission? >> she'll explain that to you. >> that's where you just kind of sneak around people's property. >> larry: for what purpose? >> to steal possessions. money. >> larry: you had no idea murder was at hand. >> before she joined the family, they'd gone on creepy crawly missions in bel air and beverly hills. they'd go into big mansions and rearrange the furniture in the middle of the night. but i'm convinced that linda, who was cut out of different cloth than others. she was a true hippie. a flower child. i am convinced the only reason he asked her to go along on

these two nights of murder is that she was the only one in the family that had a driver's license. he specifically told her, go get your driver's license. so she had no idea that they were going to go out and commit mass murder. >> larry: in your opinion, she was an innocent. >> absolutely. >> larry: what were the others, in your opinion if not a flower child. >> they were willing to kill for him. she was not. >> larry: when we come back, linda kasabian on the haunting details of the tate murders. i've been growing algae for 35 years. most people try to get rid of algae, and we're trying to grow it. the algae are very beautiful. they come in blue or red, golden, green. algae could be converted into biofuels... that we could someday run our cars on. in using algae to form biofuels, we're not competing with the food supply. and they absorb co2, so they help solve the greenhouse problem, as well. we're making a big commitment to finding out...

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in july 1969, i had just turned 20. my relationship with my husband was not there. i wasn't a priority to him. >> linda. >> no, bob. >> and there was this girl gypsy, and she was a part of charlie manson's family. gypsy said, don't worry. you can come live with us. i immediately decided to go with her. >> larry: that's the history channel's upcoming drama documentary titled "manson." we're back with former manson follower linda kasabian. i asked her when she first realized that she was part of a plot to murder. >> when i realized, really, what was going on, and this is after

steven parent was shot in the head. >> larry: you saw him shot? >> yes, i did. >> larry: that must have blown your mind. >> it did. it totally just -- >> larry: again, manson does not go on any of these? >> no. the second night he accompanied them to a certain point. >> but then a lot of screaming and crying and -- >> larry: how many people were with you? >> one, two, three. >> larry: and you were in whose house at that time? >> i wasn't in anybody's house. >> larry: where was the guy shot? >> i was in the yard. >> larry: he was in the yard? >> yes. he was in his vehicle. >> larry: oh. >> steven parent. >> larry: first one killed? >> yeah. and then after that happened, i was told to stay there and just kind of wait and listen for sounds, and i did that and then i started hearing like just horrible screaming. so i started running towards the house. and sadie came running out. i just looked at her and i said sadie, please make it stop.

she said, i can't. it's too late. and that's when i saw frykowski being murdered. slaughtered. >> larry: knifed? >> knifed. >> larry: now this is all new to you. you are a hippie or a flower child. >> yeah. >> larry: that's a child of peace. >> yeah, make love, not war. >> larry: you must have gone nuts. >> yeah. i was in -- it was unreal. it was so real that it was unreal. >> larry: did you ask him why they were doing this? you didn't think of saying why are you killing these people? >> it wasn't that kind of a

scenario where, you know, the only thing that got said was sadie, make it stop. >> larry: that was all that was said? >> that was all -- >> larry: you drive the car away? when they were finished, you drove away? >> yeah. >> larry: where did you go, back to manson? >> yeah. >> larry: and how did you feel? you're driving back with three people who have just killed people. >> i was in a total state of shock. i didn't know what to feel. didn't know what to think. i just witnessed a man looking straight into his eyes leave this earth. leave his body. he died. >> larry: why didn't you call the police? >> i thought of doing that while i was still there and the murders were still going on. and i thought about my daughter back at the ranch. i thought about being found at somebody else's house.

calling for help and also, back in that time in frame, you didn't turn to the police. the police was -- >> larry: enemies? >> enemies, yeah. >> larry: so back you went to the house. what did manson say when you got back? >> everybody was gathered together, and he asked if we had remorse. and i kind of watched and waited to hear what everybody else was saying to kind of follow in their footsteps as to -- because i couldn't say, you know, what i really felt. >> larry: and no one had remorse? >> no. no. >> larry: how about you? >> no. i was shocked. yeah, it's like -- >> larry: you didn't feel you had anything to be remorseful about since you didn't plan on doing this. >> but it's like, oh, my god. this person, this beautiful person was just -- his life was taken. savagely murdered. right there. >> larry: when we come back,

more with linda kasabian. plus, former manson follower susan atkins who was denied parole a 13th time this week despite the fact she has terminal brain cancer. we'll get reaction from sharon tate's sister. hello, everyone. we have some breaking news to report to you. we told you that we were waiting a press conference from new haven. new haven, connecticut, police have just wrapped up a briefing. they are announcing new details surrounding the missing yale graduate student. the 24-year-old pharmacology student his disappeared and hasn't been seen since tuesday. this is what police are saying now. they've found the remains in one of the buildings on campus inside of a wall where she was last seen. inside a building wall in the build sheeg was last seen. they found the remains about 5:00 p.m. eastern time. they are telling reporters it is now a homicide and a murder situation. that press conference just

wrapped up a short time ago. meantime, we're waiting for a spokesman from yale university who is supposed to speak out momentarily and talk about the findings of police and now that police have found her body. they are saying they found the 24-year-old student's body, annie le, inside the wall of the building where she went missing. now a homicide and they want to find out now who did it. we'll have updates on this breaking news at 10:00 p.m. eastern, including other news as well. we're also hearing tonight from osama bin laden. and i switched to new one a day women's active metabolism. a complete women's multivitamin plus more for metabolism support. and that's a change i feel good about. new from one a day. this is another. new total blueberry pomegranate cereal gives you 100% of the daily value of 12 essential vitamins and minerals.

plus the bold new taste of blueberries and pomegranate with crispy whole grain flakes and crunchy oat clusters. total, a truly delicious way to get vitamins and minerals. how are you getting 100%? visit totalcereal.com and get a free sample. >> larry: welcome back. over the years, charles manson never shied away from the tv cameras. here's manson in his own words. >> i don't really accept any attorneys. i don't accept the court. i don't accept the whole

situation. you know, like i was in the desert minding my business. this confusion belongs to you. it's your confusion. i don't have any confusion. i don't have any guilt. i know what i've done and no man can judge me. >> are you guilty of any murders? are you guilty of plotting any murders? >> i killed a chicken once. >> any human beings? >> no. >> you're absolutely innocent of any conspiracy to commit murder or telling anyone to commit murder or planning it? >> i'll plead guilty to the indians. >> you say in your minds that i'm guilty of everything that you have got on paper. so, therefore, it would run logic that i would need to have remorse for what you think is reality. and if that would be true, then all the ocean's contents, if it were my tears, there would not

be enough to express the remorse i have for the sadness of that world that you people live in. well, god, i guess you're my best friend being as i invented you. >> do you believe in god? >> sure, i believe in myself. why wouldn't i. so which one? >> are you jesus christ? >> which jesus? there's all kinds of jesus. there's a black jesus down in florida. there's a mexican jesus in mexico. there's all kinds of -- jewish jesus. jesus is coming back everywhere and nothing can stop it. it's a consciousness that lives in your mind. >> larry: when we come back, more with our exclusive guest, linda kasabian. i'll ask her why she went out on a second killing spree.

what were you thinking of when you saw linda kasabian yesterday? >> i was thinking how pretty she looked. >> are you upset with linda? >> no, not at all. >> do you think she will testify for the prosecution? >> that's up to linda. >> most of the people i didn't even know. linda kasabian, for example, she'd only been at the ranch a couple of weeks. i'd seen her maybe twice. like i never paid that much attention to people that came around at that ranch. they came and went as they chose. >> larry: the night after the tate murders, the manson family

struck again. i asked linda kasabian and prosecutor vincent bugliosi about what happened on the second night. >> the second night manson accompanied his killers in a car looking for the victims completely at random. in the vast sprawling metropolis of l.a., no one was safe. they stopped at a church in pasadena. they were going to go inside the church, murder everyone inside the church. the doors were locked. no one inside. they stopped in front of the one with leno and rosemary labianca. a own a small supermarket chain called gateway market. so they stopped there, and manson sent his killers into the house with instructions to murder the occupants. then he drove off with linda and two other people. at the time of the murders, manson and the people in the car were having milkshakes. but that was the second night, the labianca night. she did not participate in the tate or labianca murders. and the point has to be made because she has suffered through the years from people in towns she's lived in and her children

thinking she was involved in these murders. participated in them. >> larry: that's why we have her disguised. >> but she was not involved in any -- >> larry: but there is a significant question. why did you go out the second night? >> because manson told me to. >> larry: what did you do all day after the first night of murders? >> i remember being -- watching tv and finding out who the people were inside the home. >> larry: why didn't you take your daughter and flee? >> i was afraid. >> larry: you were afraid he was going to harm you? >> it wasn't just something that i could turn around and walk out of there. >> she did leave the family the first opportunity she had. three days after. and she went back to her mother. >> larry: what about the first day. she's just seen murders. >> it's not that easy to leave a family of murderers. but the first opportunity she had, she fled the family.

went back to new hampshire where her mother was. when she learned there was a warrant out for her arrest, she voluntarily came out to l.a. and told me everything that happened without asking for anything in return although her lawyer properly got her immunity from prosecution. but she told me from the very beginning she knew she was the one that was going to have to tell the world what happened. >> larry: when the second night occurred, what were you thinking then? >> how -- >> larry: didn't you say to charlie manson, why are you doing this? why are you telling people to do this? >> i didn't say anything like that, but i did at the point where it came down to the line where it was -- i was going to be forced to have to do this. kill somebody. is when i looked him in the eye and said, charlie, i'm not --

i'm not you. i can't do this. >> tell mr. king and the national audience that you stopped in venice, an apartment house in venice and manson gave you a knife and told you to go -- >> larry: this is the second night? >> well it was the second night. gave you a knife. told you to go inside an apartment house and murder an actor friend of yours whom she had met a couple of weeks earlier when she was hitchhiking up pacific coast highway. what did you tell manson when he told you to murder this person? >> he told me how to murder this man. >> what did you tell him? >> i told him, charlie, i'm not you. i can't kill anybody. he said sure you can, and he took out and pretended his finger was a knife and he went like this. he said just do this. then he dismissed me and two other people to go and commit this murder. >> larry: what did you do? >> and he took off. i knocked on the wrong door. >> larry: were you going to kill someone? >> no. certainly not. >> she frustrated what would have been an eighth murder in two nights by deliberately

knocking on the wrong door. >> larry: when were you assigned the case? >> three months later. the first moment the manson family became suspects, i was assigned and started working on it for two years nonstop. >> larry: during those three months, what were you doing, linda? >> i was -- >> larry: before there were any arrests. >> i went to get help, when i did get away from the family. yes, i did leave my daughter, but i knew she would be okay. i got to new mexico which is where my husband was and told him the story and did not receive any support from him whatsoever or really anybody. eventually i did find somebody that was willing to help me. he felt the story was a little incredible, that maybe i wasn't telling the truth. he called the ranch and they had all been arrested, and my

daughter was put into a receiving foster care. >> larry: how old was she? >> 18 months. >> larry: what fueled manson's desire to kill innocent people? some answers after the break.

>> larry: the most puzzling thing in all of this. why did he do this? >> i think at the bottom is tremendous hostility for society. he hated society. thought he had been given a bad hand in life. you know, he was short, 5'2." said he had no parents. he didn't know who his father was. his mother ran around a lot, was an alcoholic. she'd drop him off at a neighbor's home for a couple of hours. disappear for a couple of days or weeks. he had this tremendous hostility.

when he formed the family, i don't think he was thinking of using it to commit murder. but somewhere along the line, i think it was a slow evolutionary process, he realized he could get these kids to do anything he wanted. i think he used them to vent his spleen on society for them. >> larry: by having them killed. why didn't he kill himself? why department he go out and participate in the killing? >> it's not because, you know, they said hitler, the head of -- >> larry: nazi. >> -- eliminating the jewish race. the story goes he fainted when he went to auschwitz. that's not the case with manson. he participated in the killing of shorty shay. shot a philadelphia guy, left him for dead. why didn't he do it? it's speculation on my part but i'm almost positive he'd have to confirm this, that he thought he'd be able to immunize himself from criminal responsibility by getting others to do his bidding for them. it was tougher to convict them because he was not at the murder scene. when your blood is at the murder

scene and the victim's blood inside your car and home, that's the end of the ball game. >> larry: linda, you might not have convicted him. >> it would have been extremely difficult. >> larry: was it hard, linda, to testify? >> yeah, it was. it was -- >> larry: had to look at all your friends, right? supposed friends? >> yeah, i definitely -- >> larry: had to look at charlie manson. >> yes, i did. >> larry: did he look back at you? >> yes he did. >> larry: was he angry? >> yes. >> larry: plenty angry. >> yes. >> larry: what happened to you after that? >> after that i was -- >> larry: what have you been doing with your life? >> trying to live a normal life, which has been really hard to do. raised four children. >> larry: are you living -- you can't tell us where you're living. >> no, i prefer not to. >> larry: you're okay now? >> yes, i am.

as of 12 years ago, i've been on a mission of healing and rehabilitation and i went through a lot of drugs and alcohol and self-destruction and probably could have used some psychological counseling and help 40 years ago but never received it. >> larry: how many are in jail now? >> well, all of them are still behind bars. i don't believe they should get out at all, of course. obviously, susan atkins is a different story. she's near death. one leg amputated. one paralyzed. you can't putter in the same category. i think they've all renounced manson, and i don't know whether they are sincere. my belief is the renunciation of manson is sincere. but at that time, they were all killers. this lady here, this young woman was not a killer. i told the jury in my summation. on a hot summer night of august the 8th, 1969, charles manson

sent out from the fires of hell at spahn ranch three heartless, blood thirsty robots and unfortunately for him, one human being, the little hippie girl, linda kasabian. this girl is different and we owe a lot to her. >> larry: do you still hear the screams? >> if i choose to go there. yeah. but i have learned to put it in its proper perspective over the years. and deal with my own feelings of shame and guilt. >> larry: you do have guilt? >> of course. i felt guilty that i felt as though i carried the guilt that nobody else had guilt for at the time. >> larry: thank you both. >> thank you, larry. >> larry: when we come back, sharon tate's sister tells us why none of the manson family should be granted parole.

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>> larry: our entire program tonight has been devoted to that terrible night many years ago and the case of manson and those horrific murders. we close the show tonight in these remaining moments with deborah tate, the sister of actress sharon tate, murdered that terrible night. you were supposed to be at the house? >> yes, i was. >> larry: what happened? >> earlier that afternoon, the young man that was supposed to drive me up had hurt his ankle in a frisbee accident and showed up with two other guys to keep him from limping. and i gave sharon a courtesy call. i didn't think that that was a proper thing to do, to show up with two extra people that she didn't know. and she agreed that she would rather that have to put on makeup or even clothes.

it was such a hot, muggy afternoon. so i canceled. >> larry: where did you hear or how did you hear about the tragedy? >> my mother -- my mother's home was -- we had just moved back in from sausalito, and we were home unpacking boxes. >> larry: you and your mother? >> me and my mother. and my boyfriend of the time called my mother and had said that he heard on the radio that sharon had been killed in a fire in benedict canyon. yeah, so -- >> larry: when you found out what it was really, what really happened, what went through you? >> i didn't think it would be possible. i got on the phone immediately and started calling fire stations. when that panned out to be untrue, i called police stations. did everything to track down what had actually happened. >> larry: who finally told you?

>> the police department. >> larry: that must have rocked you. >> absolutely. >> larry: one thing to die, tragedy enough. and then to die that way when it's not accidental and horrific. >> i had spent the entire summer at that house in sharon's absence. i was basically the lady of the house. so i had gotten to know everybody extremely well. jay was, of course, a dear, dear friend. he was like a big brother. i lost my entire support team that evening. >> larry: i interviewed sharon about a couple of weeks before this happened. and not only gorgeous, drop dead gorgeous, terrific person and bright. >> great. great individual in every way. >> larry: now since then, though, you have stayed dramatically involved in trying to prevent paroles. >> absolutely. >> larry: of anybody. in a dramatic moment during the hearing in which susan atkins' parole was eventually denied, her husband led her through a recitation of the 23rd psalm.

let's watch. >> even though i walk through the valley of the shadow of -- >> death. >> i shall fear no -- >> evil. >> for thou art with me. thy rod and your staff. >> are with me. >> she is dying is she not? >> yes. >> so what's wrong with at this point letting her out? >> i lost my mother to brain cancer. nobody that i know that has brain cancer has managed to survive a year, let alone a year and four months past her last compassionate release plea, which deems that you need to be terminal within three months. >> larry: she's not? >> i have my doubts, to tell you the truth. i don't know how it's possible that she continue on this long after. >> larry: you have no compassion

for her? >> i have all the compassion in the world for her. i wish her very well and always have. in jail, i hope they thrive and can serve and provide a useful life to other inmates, but i cannot let them out into society. i will never trust that these people are rehabilitated. >> larry: would you have preferred that they were executed? >> back in the beginning, i did not believe in the death penalty. now i do. >> larry: deborah tate is our guest. plus support for heart health. ( crowd roars ) that's a great call. one a day men's.

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atkins said she converted to catholicism while in prison. do you believe she's changed? >> i've sat across from them, as i am from you now. >> larry: you appear at parole hearings. >> absolutely. and we are this close. i've never got one word of remorse. i've never gotten an apology, which is one of the basic factors in a 12-step program, which is a requirement that they fulfill. >> larry: now you say that she hasn't shown remorse. this is what she said in 1985 at a parole hearing. watch. >> i know the pain and the suffering that i caused mrs. tate. i look at myself today and i'm appalled that i could even have been involved with something like that. >> larry: isn't that remorse? >> not in my opinion. there's no tears. there's no tears. it's something that people have to do in order to gain the trust of the parole board in letting them out. >> larry: were you there for

that? >> no, i was not there for that. >> larry: do you hate these people? >> not at all. >> larry: you should. no? >> i'm not capable of hate. i feel -- i feel bad that their lives have been wasted, but that was a choice that they made in the lifestyle that they lived. this wasn't an isolated killing, an act of passion. this was predatorial killing. >> larry: your sister wasn't targeted. >> not at all. >> larry: could have been any house. >> could have been any house. it changed the way the world looked at everything at that time. when you're not safe in your own home, it's a terrible thing. >> larry: back with debra tate right after this. probably a lot like you. but i like what i found. i think you will too. car for car, when compared to the competition, we win. simple as that. i just know if you get into one of our cars, you're gonna like what you see. so we're putting our money where our mouth is.

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miss atkins very callously denied sharon the opportunity of life. >> larry: we are back with debra tate. when you heard about the labianca murders the next night. when you heard of the la byian can murders the next night, did you hook them up? >> absolutely. i had my suspicions. >> larry: so it was too coincidental? >> too kwips dental. >> larry: a witness to the murders, didn't do anything to stop them. according to bsh ugliosi, the key witness. what are your feelings of her? >> as far as i'm concerned, she was an accessory to murder. and therefore should hold the same penalties as everybody else. >> larry: but the d.a. says he wasn't sure he could have a solid iron case without her? >> i think he should have tried. he may not have been sure, but i think that the points could be

made without that. i don't think that it's absolutely necessary. however, i'm not a lawyer. the laws of today are different than they were in 1969. it could have been a much more severe point to make. >> larry: you were at the trial? >> my father wouldn't allow me to go to the trial but i followed it every kay. >>. >> larry: why not? >> he was having difficulty himself. he was afraid i would lose my temper. it was hard for him to control himself. i was basically the son my father never had. >> larry: you were the younger sister? >> no, the middle sister. sharon and i had a close relationship. >> larry: another sister? >> there was another sister. >> larry: she die? >> she passed from breast cancer. >> larry: you've had -- >> absolutely. the last of my line. >> larry: shoe. how close were you with sharon? >> extremely close.

as military children, you're moved all over the country or the world every three years. so the only consistent thing in each others lives are your family. >> larry: did you like your brother-in-law? oh. >> i loved my brother-in-law. and i still do. >> larry: do you think you'll come back to this? >> i saw him in 2005, i tried to talk him in to coming back to this country. >> larry: taking a shot? >> absolutely. i thought that i -- that he has a duty to try to clear up the record. however, the way la d a's want to treat it is they'll take him back, want it publicized, on camera, turn it in to a three-ring circus. he has no need to come back here. >> sydney polansky is one of the great directors. >> absolutely. >> larry: were they very much in love? oh. >> very much in love. roman and sharon admired each

other, he worshipped the ground she walked on. they had a wonderful life together. balanced each other completely. >> larry: why wasn't he there that night? >> he was in london finishing up "day of the dolphin." she had just gotten back from italy from doing her last film, which was "12" -- excuse me, "13 chairs." >> that's what i interviewed her about. >> yes. >> larry: what did you think of her career? oh. >> i was very, very proud of her. sometimes i thought it was a little funny or contrived. i didn't understand all of the dynamics. i rehearsed or ran parts with her quite often. she said she thought i was the better actress in the family. >> larry: back with debra tate, reliving a horror after this.

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>> what has mr. manson learned in the 23 -- almost 23 years he's been in prison for these murders? in my estimation, mr. manson has learned nothing. >> larry: back with debra tate. does it bofter you there are movies, documentaries, best-selling books all about this? >> it does. i feel that many people have made a lot of money off of my family's pain. and they continue to do so. so many of the things, documentaries or even statements that i myself have made are taken and chopped and taken out of context. i would love to have the opportunity to tell the entire story in a cohesive manner that is complete. and i haven't had the opportunity to do that. >> larry: why don't you write it? >> i have thought about that, larry.

i actually thought about writing it. there's so much -- my mother's advocate work. my father actually to deal with his pain went out in to the world, hollywood world and did his own investigation. there's so many heroes in this family's story that have not been -- that have not been explored. >> larry: you watch -- did you like "helter-skelter." >> i never read "helter-skelter". >> did you see it? >> i did not see it. i will not contaminate my memories with somebody else's version. >> larry: even the d. a's. >> he said your sister asked her to let her baby live and susan said she didn't have any mercy on her? >> absolutely. >> larry: how far along was she? oh oh the baby would have lived had somebody got there. sharon was full term. she was going to be giving birth

within the next week, week and a half at the most. >> larry: what was it? >> it was a boy. >> larry: did she know it was a boy? they didn't know that, did they? >> no, not back then. they didn't know. >> larry: what are your feelings about manson? >> i think that charlie has a unique gift and that is to recognize and band together sociopaths. there were many members of the manson family that weren't willing to go out on these raids and commit violent acts or crimes. he had the propensity to recognize them and band them together. >> larry: why do you think he wanted to do it, though? what was his kick? he didn't kill anyone? >> he did not kill anyone, actually. but -- that we know of in this particular case, i question -- >> larry: what do you think is his kick in sending other people out to kill people? >> i think it made him feel like a big man to be able to have that kind of influence on

people. and i also think that he was very bitter at society. he had been in and out of the system most of his life. he was a dysfunctional individual. >> larry: did you ever talk to him? >> i did talk to him -- well, i saw him. i did not speak to him. he did not speak to me. >> larry: how did you see him? >> in the county jail, before he was convicted. i had myself taken in. and we sat across from each other like this and neither one of us had anything to say. >> larry: what went through you? >> i wanted to look into his eyes and see what i saw. i wanted to see if i felt that he was guilty. and it was like looking in to the eyes of a shark. dark, empty eyes. >> larry: would it take anything to have you say, let someone out? >> yes. i -- i'm capable of saying let someone out if i see all of the right signs. >> larry: so far, you haven't? >> i