tonight a young mother in utah vanishes, last seen and heard from two days ago. now foul play may be in the mix. police call her husband a person of interest in her mysterious disappearance. >> she's somewhere. >> why are they focusing on him? >> they were working through issues. >> susan's father is here to tell us why he's worried sick. governor david paterson and his rift with obama. is the president trying to push him out of office? then megapastor joes s os o os

tiger woods. that's next on "larry king live." >> larry: susan powell's husband took their kids camping. when he returned the next afternoon 28-year-old susan was gone, nowhere to be found. her keys, purse and cell phone still at home. police say they're not ruling out foul play. with us are chuck cox, susan powell's father, and michael gifford, susan powell's good friend. he's known susan since she was 8 years old. chuck, how are you holding up? >> larry, it's a struggle and just day to day, basically. >> larry: you're in seattle. do they live in utah? >> yes. they're living in the west

valley city of utah. >> larry: is that where she went missing? >> yes, it is. >> larry: when was the last time you spoke with your daughter? >> it's been two weeks ago on thursday. >> larry: was that shortly before she left or was taken? >> yeah. the thursday before she went missing. >> larry: your son-in-law, joshua, are you close, by the way? >> we're fairly close. yeah, we're fairly close. >> larry: your son-in-law took the two sons camping. rather strange, don't you think, midnight on a sunday night and the weather is below freezing? >> that's a concern to me, and yes, i do think that's strange. >> larry: susan's husband joshua was asked by reporters what happened. listen to what he said. >> now, a lot of talk on the internet, a lot of -- obviously in cases like this and you know this, they instantly talk about

the husband. they think that he's the suspect, that he did something. is there anything you want to say to address that? >> i didn't do anything. i mean, i -- i don't know where she's at. i don't even know where to start looking. >> larry: chuck, they've called him a person of interest. do you frankly think he could be involved in his wife's disappearance? >> well, he's been my son-in-law for about eight years, and i don't think -- i don't want to think that way, and i don't want to speculate. he's been determined to be a person of interest, and i have to believe the police have a reason for doing that. >> larry: is he a good father? >> i believe he's a good father. he's excellent with the children. >> larry: michael, you've known her a long time, susan. your wife, by the way, acted as

family spokesperson today. she wasn't surprised joshua is a person of interest. are you surprised? >> no, not really, because of the comments that were made after he was being interviewed. just some of the things that have transpired during the week. we've been, like everyone else, kind of watching as things go, and it looked like they needed to go that direction. but when a police department names someone has a person of interest, they do that to make sure that they are following the right leads and going down the right path. so that wasn't too surprising after some of the comments you raerd this week? >> larry: what comment did he make that struck you? >> just, i think the comment he made about going camping at 12:30 at night. having known susan for all these years, i doubt very seriously if she would have tolerated him

taking the kids camping at 12:30 at night in a snowstorm. that's a little odd. >> larry: would you say, as you know her, would she get up and leave without notice? >> no. not at all. especially without her purse or cell phone. she just wouldn't do that. even if there was a problem, she would have gone to a friend's house a block away, she would have taken her cell phone. she would have contacted someone by now. >> larry: do you know of any marital problems? >> well, i know of a few, but the typical ups and downs. like i said, she's been a friend of the family for a long time, and yeah, she shared a few ups and downs. but sometimes nothing more ordinary than outside the rest of maerrriages we have in ameri. >> larry: chuck, this is hard to say, but obviously something happened here, right?

>> obviously. definitely something happened. >> larry: what are your fears? >> i'm confused that the children were taken camping at 12:30 at night. the story doesn't ring true for me right now, and if it's not -- if he had no involvement, i -- i don't know. i don't want to worry about that. i want to -- i try to concentrate on finding her right now, and that's the main reason we're using the media and reaching out to all of the people in america. >> larry: michael, do you fear the worst? >> part of me does. part of me feels that she's out exposed in the weather that's down there, yes. fear that quite a bit. if she's being held somewhere and is not exposed to the weather, then there's hope that

we'll find her and bring her home and reunite her with her children and we'll be able to put this to rest. i think that's the thing chuck and i have talked about a lot, is holding onto that hope. >> larry: chuck, have you spoken to your son-in-law? >> yes, i have. the last time was last sunday. it was cordial. he was under a lot of pressure. i did speak with him. >> larry: do you trust him? >> i have no facts right now other than my questions about the story to not trust him, and as i said, he's been a son-in-law for eight years and two grandchildren. so i'm hoping for the best. >> larry: we hope that this season the best does come about. thank you. chuck cox, michael gifford. we'll stay on top of this.

>> thank you, appreciate it, larry he. >> new york governor david paterson is here. is there a rift between president obama and him? is there a rift? we'll ask the governor next. natural gas is a cleaner burning fuel, yet a lot of natural gas has impurities like co2 in it. controlled freeze zone is a new technology... being developed by exxonmobil... to remove the co2 from the natural gas... so we can safely store it... where it won't get into the atmosphere. exxonmobil is spending more than 100 million dollars... to build a plant that will demonstrate this process. i'm very optimistic about it... because this technology could be used... to reduce greenhouse gas emissions significantly. ♪

welcome back to "larry king live." governor david patterson. he made major news when takes office. first african-american governor and the first legally blind governor. how has it been? do you enjoy this job? >> i enjoy it.

it took a while to get used to it. the first day i was worn in was the day the federal government saved bear sterns. in the first couple months i realized this country would probably see a recession, the likes of which we haven't seen in 80 years. it's been very difficult to deal with it. in the 20 months i've been governor, i have cut over $31 billion of deficit from new york state. that is higher than the largest four deficits that we'd faced in one year. >> larry: that also brings pain, does at any time? >> it brings a lot of pain, issues i worked on for 20 years i've had to curtailed. i actually vetoed a bill i sponsored when in the state senate. you should have heard what the co-sponsor said to me that day. >> larry: do you feel beleaguered? >> no. it's very exciting. it's a challenge. these are not the kinds of circumstances in which i would haveme wanted to be governor, b

these are the time that is define people n. difficult times you find out who wants to step up and confront a crisis and who sticks their head in the stand and shirks responsibility. >> larry: you announced you would run for election next year, because you were elected lieutenant-governor. there were reports president obama doesn't want you in the race. what can you tell us? "the new york times" reported obama sent a request to you to withdraw from this race. is that true? >> that's true that "the new york times" wrote that. the congressman, who the white house sources quoted as having made that request to me, never made that request and has said so on the record. i don't know where they got their information from. i had other conversations with white house -- with people from the white house. i never saw that as a direct request to get out of the race. and some of the circumstances that were described to me at the time don't exist anymore.

so one thing that incident demonstrated is that nearly 70% of new yorkers advised me that if i wanted to run for governor, i should, and that new yorkers will determine who the next governor of new york will be. >> larry: has the president spoke to you direct? >> he spoke to me once just to express some concern over the way the situation was handled. that was the only conversation we had about it. >> larry: do you feel that he's behind you, supporting you, against you? do you have a gut feeling about it? >> i think the president is learning in his first year that you need a lot of help to govern. that's why he's put effort into helping democratic candidates around the country, and i don't have any problem with the fact that he has a concern about new york. >> larry: do you expect him to get -- it's obviously the attorney general andrew cuomo will run against you. do you expect anybody else in that race?

>> i don't know that he's in that race. >> larry: let's assume he is. do you think the president would get involved? >> i don't expect that the president would get involved in a democratic primary, but these are all speculations. i haven't had much of a chance to think about what-ifs. >> larry: are you looking forward to fighting for this office? >> i'm already fighting for it. i feel that right now new york state faces a negative cash balance at the end of this month for the first time in the history of this state, so i've taken the unprecedented action of an executive authority in which i am delaying payments to a lot of our services uniformly and across the board to keep the state from running out of money. >> larry: will the services keep servicing? >> well, the revenues need to come back in order for us to survive. and right now we can't tax the public anymore, and we certainly

can't borrow money anymore. we've been advised of that by the bondholders and credit raters and we have to tighten our belt and get through the end of the recession. new york is still really one of the 14 or 15 states of the 48 that are in deficit. 48 of the 50 states are in deficit, larry. new york could get out of this and be on the road to recovery, but we have to tighten our belts a little more through the next few months. >> larry: who are the two that are not? >> north dakota, even though their revenues are down, is not in deficit and the state of alaska is not in deficit. that's why the governor resigned, there wasn't much more to do at that point. >> larry: we'll be right back with more of governor david paterson of new york. don't go away. approximate

>> larry: the polls snow andrew cuomo did run, he's doing very well against you. does that concern you? >> i have had to deal with $30 billion of reductions, tacking people, which i didn't want to do. people moving out of state because of the high taxes. canceling rebates on property taxes for people. cutting services that are vitally needed to try to keep the state solvent. and everyone in this country who's in charge right now is seeing their poll numbers dwindle. but when other candidates get in the races, they have to answer the same questions or propose how they would have managed differently, and then you see much tighter races. >> larry: the world is rudy guiliani will not run. is that what you hear? >> when i hear from it him, i will believe it. >> larry: do you expect lazzio

to be a tough opponent? >> i think he's a worthy candidate, and he was a good congressman when he was in new york. but i do appreciate that he said in public, i managed this crisis when the state has run out of the cash well. as a person that wants to be governor, for him to say that i think shows a lot of character. >> larry: diversion a little before we get to some other things. is it frankly hard to be blind and to govern? >> it's both. it's difficult because material is read to me and therefore it takes longer to read. but i managed to get out of high school in three years and went to columbia university and graduated law school. this is just another challenge and just another opportunity for me to demonstrate in my life what on other frequencies so many, not only blind people but disabled people can do if given the opportunity.

i don't know if you know this, larry, but 71% of blind people in this country aren't works, and nearly 90% of deaf people don't have jobs. and some of the ridiculing and the sort of adverse humor directed at the disabled really gives a lot of credence to those who actually transmit that into believing that there is an ability. we have a great work force that we're not using in this country. >> larry: we'll be back with more of governor paterson in new york. don't go away. i always thought calcium, and vitamin d, and exercise

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>> larry: we're back. i was mentioning to the governor during the break the big story in new york was the fact that the transit authority had to cancel the free subway service for new york's children, who were always previously able to ride free. you said you're going to fix that. >> i promised new yorkers i was going to fix that, but the promises being made at a point that the state has no money, i anticipate revenues will come back enough that children who have to go to school by law don't have to be put in a position where they can't afford to do something they're being compelled to do. >> larry: you had a lot of problems when you replaced the senate seat, and you chose kind of an unknown congresswoman from upstate. kristen hillenbrand. you wanted ms. kennedy to maybe take that post. as you look back on that, how

did you resolve that? >> i think i missed that the senate seat in new york had almost been elevated to the level of vice president, and should have put an end to the sort of media circus that occurred after that. the reason i waited so long, i would have then been replacing a senate seat that was held by a senator. senator hillary clinton didn't resign until she became secretary on state on january 23rd. so i was afraid of putting any designee who for any reason, especially that perhaps mrs. clinton decided she didn't want to serve and stayed in the senate, i would have been stuck alienating about 20 people and choosing a person now not going to be senator. in red row spekt, hindsight is 20 lsh 20. if i had to do it again, that's what i would have done. mrs. kennedy was not treated correctly in the process. it happened on my watch, and therefore i have to take

responsibility for what some people who thought they were helping were doing that was tragic. >> larry: we had a discussion last night about the black americans and president obama and are black americans disappointed so far as it pertains to their needs. how do you assess it? >> i don't think black americans are disappointed. i think black americans, highway patrol, are just like me. very proud of the president. the kind of incredible moment it was to elect an african-american president, a descendent of a class of people brought to this country as slaved was embraced by people who voted for him and even people who had serious dir differences with him. it was a great moment for america. it also was accompanied by the most fierce recession that we've had since the great depression. so all of that hope and

expectation for the future has been in some way quashed by an unrelenting downturn in revenues in 48 of the 50 states and even on the national scene. so president obama is only experiencing the effects of this financial disaster and crisis that any other president or any other leader in this country is facing. so i think black voters are like anybody else. when you're having trouble finding a job and you may be thrown out of your home, you're not going to be particularly happy with anybody in charge. >> larry: what's your assessment of where the health bill stands? >> well, i think that the house has a far more effective health bill than the senate. certainly for new york. we have a very generous -- we have a very generous medicaid plan, and if the only way states can recruit resources is through adding additional medicaid patients, new york's going to

come out on the short end. overall like the health care plan in the house, and i only wish we could have the public option or age 55 medicare requirement. but it's very difficult. it's in negotiation, and we've got to lower the costs of health care. it will be 10% of our gdp before long. >> larry: i look forward to many more visits with you. one or thing. do you agree with the decision to hold those accused of being responsible for 9/11, hold those trials here? >> if i were making the decisidecisio decision -- a very dear friend of mine, we went to college together. i would not have held it in new york. new yorkers have taken a real beating ever since september 11th. traffic problems. new yorkers that lived and worked near ground zero were assured by the epa it was safe and it wasn't. people have diseases now because

we got the wrong information from washington. the decision is made. we're fully in support of the decision. we will do everything possible to make sure that that trial runs as smoothly and safely as possible. >> larry: you would not have made that decision? >> i wouldn't have done that. >> larry: even though the crime was committed here? >> i agree with the fact that this case is being handled in our -- in our civilian courts and not in a military trial, but i just think because of the impact that the attack on our country on september 11th, 2001 had on that region still struggling to get away from it. we still haven't been able to rebuild the area at ground zero. i would have picked another venue, but it's not and we cannot cooperate with and are not fully in support of at this point. >> thank you, governor. governor david paterson, the governor of new york. megapastor joel osteen and his

wife are next. is christianity part of the recession? some people think so. we'll ask the osteens next. ys w. put the investor-- you--first. that's how they work. that's how they deliver objective investing help. that's what td ameritrade stands for. what does your investment firm stand for? it's time for fresh thinking. it's time for td ameritrade. (announcer) some people just know how to build things well. give you and your loved ones an expertly engineered mercedes benz at the winter event going on now. but hurry - the offer ends january 4th.

what a joy to be with you tonight. we love you guys. >> this is a dream come true for us. >> be strong and of good courage for the lord your god is with you. >> how are you?

>> good to see you. >> god bless you all. thank you. >> larry: howie mandel with us tomorrow night. welcome back tonight to joel and victoria osteen. they're pastors of lakewood church in house son. his new book is "it's your time." it's already a major best seller. central message of this one is? >> it's that we're not supposed to put our lives on hold just because there's difficult times. when you believe, that's when all things are possible. it seems like there's so much negative news these days with the recession and so many other things going on, people seem to be, you know, so down. i wanted to write a book to lift their spirits. >> larry: let's see it's christmastime. christianity's time. people are out of the work, being foreclosed. isn't the hope you're giving them kind of a theory?

what's it based on? >> it's based on the scripture as i said, when you believe, that's what allows god to work in your life. the opposite to me is to say, be down, be depressed, be bitter. all that does is not only make your life miserable, but it doesn't allow god to do great things. god works when we believe and have faith and get up each day and say god, i don't have my job but i believe you will open up something new in the days ahead. >> larry: you can have that feeling without believing in good have faith in yourself? >> sure, you can. certainly you can. that helps you. of course, i believe in putting my faith in god. >> larry: do you ever doubt, victoria? do you ever doubt truthfully? >> you know what? when i doubt my mind might doubt, but i've got my heart so grounded in god. you know what? not everything goes right, but i just have to know that there's better days ahead. that somebody has me in his hand, and that's god. when i have faith in myself, i

make it harder on myself. if i can have faith in god, then i can just be responsible and then i just believe that he's helping me. does that make sense? >> larry: yeah, i understand. joel, atlantic magazine has a major story asking did christianity cause the crash? did prosperity gospel preachers have something to answer for? might it have played a role in the economic collapse? think about it. you have to self-examine. >> sure, you do. we encourage people to believe that they can rise higher. i think linking that to what we believe is not apples to apples. >> larry: the article questions what it calls a strain of the christian faith that promises to make-believers rich in the here and now. pretty strong promise. >> sure. i don't necessarily believe that. i believe god wants us to be blessed and rise higher, just like my father came out of deep, deep poverty. he said i can make something with my life. when you believe that god is in

control and wants you to rise higher, that's when you can see god's goodness in new ways. we never tell people if you believe you'll be rich. >> larry: it's not a material stick preaching? >>, it's not, larry. >> larry: how did that happen? you dress great and sell books. >> we believe god wants you to be blessed, but being blessed is not just so i can have nice cars and homes. we're blessed to be a blessing to other people. so i think the image comes because we don't believe god wants you to be defeated and be depressed and go through life poor old me. >> larry: this is the hardest thing to explain. i don't think i've asked it of you. i know it's written in the book, but the question would be, why do you believe? >> you know -- >> larry: you don't believe a book says to believe, do you? or do you? >> to be honest i think i

believe -- i was raised in this. i saw my parents a faith and how they loved people and each other. there was something on the inside. so i can only speak from my own experience. i was raised in this. i can understand. i have friends that are totally opposite than me, weren't race raised in this at all. i believe there's a place in everybody's heart that only god can fill. we're people of purpose and destiny. >> larry: can you explain faith, victoria? i mean, you can't pin it down, can you? >> no. faith comes when you have hope. the bible says that faith is the substance of things hoped for. that's why we try to put hope in people. we try to get people to look at the future in a good sense and not in a bad sense. like joel was saying not to get bitter, and not to just buckle down and say nothing good's going to happen me. but to say what if tomorrow is a better today? what if it does happen to me?

that brings hope, and when you have hope, the bible talks that your faith is increased. faith is what moves god to act. >> our guests are the osteens. his book is "it's your time." more after this. i have asthma. and when my symptoms-the coughing, wheezing, tightness in my chest came back- i knew i had to see my doctor. he told me i had choices in controller medicines. we chose symbicort. symbicort starts to improve my lung function within 15 minutes. that's important to me because i know the two medicines in symbicort are beginning to treat my symptoms and helping me take control of my asthma.

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- sure, cake or pie? - pie. - apple or cherry? - cherry. oil or cream? oil or cream? cream. some use hydrogenated oil. reddi-wip uses real dairy cream. nothing's more real than reddi-wip. his new book is "it's your time." oral roberts was a frequent guest. he was a good guy and a lot of fun. very serious but he could take a

joke. he, of course, just died the other day. here are both of you praying together. let's watch. >> i pray for your ministry. i marvel at your ministry and the gift of god in your life and victoria's life. i marvel. i see it and i rejoice. i praise god for it. but i know there's always more in good. i pray for that more to be given to you and you to give god more of yourself. >> larry: you went to his school for a year? >> i did. i went to oral roberts university and enjoyed it. it was fun. my brothers and sisters have gone there. my brother graduated from medical school there. it's a good place. >> larry: all right. he was quite a guy. >> he really was. >> larry: whether you believed it or not. where is he now? >> i believe he's in heaven. >> larry: what is heaven? >> i believe it's a place of

love, a place of beauty. heaven, you know, the scripture describes as a place that, you know, it's where god is, and god is, you know, the opposite of hate and anger and sickness and disease. so i -- >> larry: do you see him in a physical form? >> i don't think it's physical. i believe that we are -- we live inside of our body. this is sort of our house, and one day we live on. i believe when you know christ that you go to be with him in heaven. >> larry: you believe the same thing? >> i do. >> larry: was that emotional for you, to have that blessing from him? >> it really was. it really was, because, of course, you know, growing up we watched him. being a preacher's kid we watched him on the television, and he was one of the heroes of faith. i went to his school, and he was always bigger than life. when i went to visit him at 91, he's so kind. he was still sharp as a tack. >> larry: do you believe he heal

s healed? >> i believe he prayed for people. he had that ministry, his path that he took that god put in him was to help hurting people. he prayed for the healing. >> let's discuss something everybody is talking about. tiger woods. what would you say to him? if he asked for counsel? >> if he asked for counsel? laurie, our ministry is about restoration. we believe only the guilty need mercy, so i say, tiger, you know what? we can learn from our mistakes. god is a forgiving god. we've all made poor choices before, but this is not the end of your life. god has a way to work for your good. i would he encourage him to keep his hopes up and get some good counseling. but just to let him know this is not the end. >> larry: would you say he maybe should get divorced? i mean, sometimes you have to counsel and some people should, shouldn't they? >> it would not be our first choice.

i think everybody knows we're all about doing what you can to stay together. sometimes you can't unscramble eggs. if it's done it's done. it takes two people. god gives us own free will. we pray for him. >> larry: the basis of christianity is forgiveness. isn't that hard? >> it is hard. it's really hard. >> larry: turning the other cheek. >> it's very hard. a lot of things in christianity are opposite what we'd like to do. when you forgive someone you release a prisoner, and you find out that that prisoner was really you. i think sometimes if we'll understand that forgiving is more for ourselves than the other person. because we'll hold grudges, and we think we're getting back at the other person. but really we're only hurting ourselves. and i think that's the basis of forgiveness. >> larry: the genius is the grudge holder is the victim. >> it really is. i've seen people in the business we're in, that they go their whole life angry.

they're still angry at their parents for something that happened 30 years ago, and the person they're angry at has gone on and they're living their life and they're in the prison themselves. we encourage people every morning to get up and start the day off, forgiving the people that hurt you the day before, letting go of the disappointments. >> larry: back with the osteens after this. but it is impossible to build a wall that separates a man from his freedom. because freedom always finds a path... to build peace. this film is dedicated to aung san suu kyi, still prisoner in burma. by changing her medicare prescription plan. all we had to do was go to cvs.com and use the free savings calculator. we learned that changing your medicare part d plan could save an average of $612. woman: we just entered my prescriptions,

and it compared plans for us. it was easy to find the right plan for the prescriptions i need. your cvs pharmacist can help, too. come in today, or go to cvs.com before december 31st to find the best plan for you -- at cvs/pharmacy. >> larry: the subtitle is it's your time is ty yat your faith he, achieve your gredreams and increase in god's favor. do you think god is judging us? >> i think in a sense god is watching us. i think he rewards people that seek after him, people that do their best each day. people that watch in excellence and integrity. so, you know, god is watching each one of us. >> larry: concerning wealth rick

warren says god wants everybody to be wealthy is creating a false idol. is he right? >> i think that's true. if you're just focusing on wealth, that's not what christianity is all about. it's about helping other people. we believe that god wants you to prosper. prosper means to have good releasesh relationships and have money to pay your bills and bless others. i don't think we should ever take christianity or anything we believe is just all about riches and this world. that's not what it's all about. >> larry: do you get angry about hypocrisy in faith? >> it puts all of us in a bad light. it's much better if we try to live by example and hopefully, you know, be who you really are and not just, you know -- >> larry: do you take any political stands? >> we really don't. we really don't. i mean, in terms of -- no, we

don't. on the health bill. >> we really don't. i'm not up to speed on all that. i think we should take care of the environment, and i do believe that people should, you know, hope that everybody could have health care. i mean, in a -- from a civilian point of view we do, but that's about it. >> larry: do you think health is a right? >> well, i would like to think it is. i'd like to think that everybody -- >> larry: you'd think god would say yes, wouldn't he? >> i would think so. i mean, i think the heart of god is for everybody to live healthy and whole and happy. >> larry: or access to it. >> sure, sure. i mean, like everybody we don't want to see anybody hurting or lonely or can't afford something. there's something in every person that says we need to help others. i don't know the best route to do it, but there's people a he lot smarter than me on that. >> larry: the book is "it's your time." we'll ask joel and victoria what, if anything, makes them

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impl implts. andzson cooper will host ac 360 at the top of the hour. president obama is in trouble. he's on his way to copenhagen right now but with no guarantee he'll have a deal on climate change to sign. the talks have broken down. on health care the democrats don't have the votes to get a he deal done, and with the approval rating on the rocks, he has a lot riding on a health care bill. also ahead, something you only see here on 360. look at this video. special forces rescues an american contractor held underground for ten months. it is truly extraordinary. michael ware who was briefly he

held captive in iraq has that story. a devastate heing last-minute setback for an american dad who thought he won a custody battle. last night we spoke with the father of 9-year-old sean goldman who was on his way he to the reunited with his son. a stunning blow today. >> larry: anderson, did the courts take a vacation? >> they stopped -- there was one judge that allowed this reunion to happen, and then another court stepped in and said it shouldn't happen. so it's really up in the air. this isn't the first time they've done this, but for this dad it's just heart-breaking. >> larry: shaethat's so sad. prejudice should make you angry. people who look upon people just because of race, creed and color. >> absolutely. things like that do, and people mistreating other people. that makes us upset and know that's not right. things like that.

>> larry: same with you? >> yeah. you got to just -- you can't spend your time being angry, you know. you have to think -- >> larry: something makes you angry. >> it makes you angry, but you have to believe that people are going to, you know, get over this because there is a lot of things that can make you angry. you could stay angry a lot. >> larry: no kidding. what do you make he of the president? >> we like the president, you know. it's a tough job. i had the opportunity to meet him not long ago, a couple days ago. i found him to be sincere. he's genuine. he's smart. you know, our prayers go out to him for what he has to deal with, but we stand behind leaders and support them and pray for them. god to give them wisdom and strength. >> larry: did you meet michelle, too. >> yes, lovely. >> larry: terrific lady. i know you met recently with our friend billy graham, who has been a frequent guest on this show. i know watches it every night. it's nice to know billy is out there, because he's special.

how is he doing? >> you know, this last time we saw him, i thought he was doing better than ever. he's still just as kind and just as humble. you know, he was -- he moved around a little bit, bullet he's still sharp in his mind he. he misses his wife greatly, but he's got a good family around him. >> larry: franklin's doing well? >> he's doing great. >> larry: in the preacher's realm of thing when preachers talk, where is billy graham on the spectrum? >> billy graham is at the very, very top. he's a hero of faith. he was like oral roberts as well. but dr. graham is just his life of integrity, the way he finished strong. he's still encouraging people. he doesn't have to meet with people like me. he has other things to do, but he's so kind to encourage others. >> larry: do you like him, too? >> i like him so much. it's interesting when you talk to him he'll come whack to say what he's learned in life and it is to truly love people, and

that to just be kind to people. it's interesting after you've lived this life, and he was -- he didn't have it easy. people criticized him for doing good, and he looks back on everything. he just says, you know what? just love people. i think that's a great legacy. >> larry: martin luther king said, love the sinner, hate the sin. do you really live that? >> we really do. >> larry: do you love the sinner? >> i think so. there's just -- you know, when you can -- i really believe you can find something good in everybody. you know, the scripture teaches you to see the best in people, don't see the worst. anybody can see the bad that they're doing, but if you can find one good thing in them, it makes it -- you realize they're created in the image of god. some people weren't raised like us and make terrible decisions. usually there's a reason. a lot of times there's a reason. >> larry: we have a new decade coming.

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>> larry: any thoughts on the death of chris henry, terrific wide receiver of the bengals? >> our hearts go out to his family. it's a sad, sad thing. some things you don't understand, but our prayers and hearts go out to that whole family. >> larry: houston elected a lesbian mayor. thought? >> she's been a good friend of our church. she's going to be hopefully a great mayor.

>> larry: she had a partner for a long time, right? >> you know, i don't really know her as far as how long, but she was a good friend of our church. she was one of the council people who voted for us to get the compaq center, so that was great. >> larry: have you come a long way in that area. i know you're against same-sex marriage, but in the other areas of equality. >> i think so. parker ran on the issues, not on, you know, a gay agenda. she served our city for many, many years. she's been a friend of our church. >> larry: washington, d.c. passed the same-sex marriage. although you're against it, do you have a feeling it's coming? >> you know what? i don't know. it seems like that the majority of votes that i see, the places that have voted, have voted against it. maybe i'm not up to speed. i thought i read where 37 states --

>> larry: they get closer, the votes. >> i'm not necessarily afraid. it's my wish that we would keep marriage strictly between a male and female. i think we're in a democracy and people get to vote. >> larry: do you have a resolution for the new year, victoria? you're a perfect couple. >> we always want it to be new and fresh and you hope for the very -- that it will all be good. the resolution is really just to not be perfect but to do better than i did last year. >> larry: what about you, joel? >> you know, i set some goals for the new year. >> larry: like? >> just ways to touch more people and just really be focused on our time and our energy, what we give that to. like victoria said, to never get stuck in a rut. to say this is good enough. okay, i've had some success or gone far enough, but god wants us to go further. >> larry: do you two argue? >> we don't. >> not anymore.

>> we never really argue. we may debate. we both have strong personalities, but we've learned to be respectful and debate. if at one point, we say we're not going to agree. to keep it respectful is the key. >> larry: do you agree on the way the children are raised? >> that's important. you have to be on the same wavelength there. >> we agree on most everything and there are things we each have our opinion out. >> larry: we're almost out of time. do you pinch yourself every day at your personal success? >> i do every day. i'm amazed sitting here with you tonight. my father used to watch you every single night, and i don't know what he'd say to think that we'd been on with you a dozen times. just the stadiums and all that stuff. it shows me that god's dream for our life is bigger than our own. >> larry: thank you very much. >> thank you. merry christmas. >> larry: merry christmas to you. howie mandel is our special guest tomorrow night.