i'm rick sanchez. campbell is back tomorrow. thanks for being with us. here now, the king, larry starts right now. -- captions by vitac -- www.vitac.com >> larry: tonight al qaeda claims responsibility for trying to bomb a u.s. airliner out of the sky on christmas. making america pay for reported strikes in yemen, and they threaten more attacks. plus, the first homeland security chief, tom ridge. what does he think of janet napolitano's controversial remarks that the system worked and her little back pedaling today? he'll tell us if president obama's response is tough enough. >> we will continue to use every element of our national power to

disrupt, to dismantle and defeat the vie he lent extremist who is threaten us. >> larry: all that and more next on "larry king live." good evening. the christmas day bomb plot story gets more interesting by the hour. we have ed henry cnn's senior white house correspondent with us from hawaii, and nic robertson senior international correspondent in london to talk about the latest development. cnn has obtained photos of underwear bomb the terror suspect alleged used to bring down flight 253. nic, what are these interesting to say the least photos tell us? >> they tell us this is the way the bombs were hidden, and i he spent a good part of today with a bomb-making expert who showed us the explosives, the petn,

powdered or pastelike explosive and it's destructive force. what's interesting is that this is a very, very stable substance. you can bang it quite hard, wear it in underwear for thousands of air miles and don't have to worry about something bumping into you. we watched a test today with enough explosive toil the cap of my pen here and it blue a huge dent in a tiny piece of alum yum about double thickness of an aircraft skin. the amount of explosives is enough to smash a hole in the side of an aircraft, larry. >> larry: would all those people would have been killed, you think? >> several things factor in. could the aircraft have landed with a big gaping hole in the side. possibly. that's been done before. if some of the control mechanic niches are damaged dp the fuel tank had exploded because it was

mostly empty, mostly fumes at the end of a long flight, that could have brought the plane down. according to our expert he would not have wanted to be on that aircraft when that bomb went off, larry. >> ed henry, drama today. the president breaks off a golf game and rushes back to the compound where he and his family were staying. what happened? >> all of a sudden we get word the president broke off the golf game and the motorcade left to go back to his home. we understand an ambulance was sort of speeding away from the home. obviously ghe given the nature f the threat, a lot were alarmed. one of the children, a family friend staying with the obamas for the holidays, had basically cut open his chin. the president wanted to make sure the father could see his son and get the medical attention needed. for a brief few moments there was quite a scare that perhaps

there was a security threat in the home or somebody in the first family had been injured. we're told the young boy is getting better now, larry. >> larry: the president made his first public comments about the failed christmas day terror attack today. here's a little of what he said. >> this was a serious reminder of the dangers that we face and the nature of those who threaten our homeland. had the suspect succeeded in bringing down that plane, it could have killed nearly 300 passengers and ians preparing t celebrate the holidays with their family and friends. the american people should be assured they're doing frg in their power to keep you and your family safe and secure during this busy holiday season. >> larry: ed, what was your reaction to that? >> in talking to some of the senior-most aides, they say he's getting up to a half-dozen briefings a day on this and the

broader terror threat even while on vacation in hawaii. we picked it up in the last few minutes. they realize this had one of this president's first real tests as commander in chief as he closes the first year to protect the american homeland. i think they had a little issue at the top about the fact that the president didn't speak for a few days, instead was content to put out his homeland security chief janet napolitano. she came out and said the system worked, and obviously it doesn't appear the system worked. that may have been the factor to get the president out there, to calm the american public, larry. >> nic, prior to obama's statements al qaeda in the arabian peninsula issues a statement taking credit for all of this. >> you have to look at it, larry, with a little bit of sinlism saying is this al qaeda taking opportunity out of someone else's success. they're boosts their own support because they need more recruits and getting a hard time in

afghanistan and pakistan and inside iraq as well. they said some things in the statement that do prps bear out a little bit of truth. they say they developed this special bond that abdulmutallab used -- alleged to have used the on the aircraft. they say they designed it and tested it to be able to get around security systems. it used petn, this highly explosive material. well, we know a yemeneen went there in august and tried to kill the minister with exactly the same type of bomb. when they went after al qaeda a week before christmas in one of their camps, what did they find? petn. the same exclosive used in this underwear bomb. there's so am things here that say al qaeda maybe did have something to do with it. larry. >> larry: what, ed, is the administration's response to al qaeda's statement?

>> exactly as nic said. they don't want to give it too much credence yet because al qaeda could be pumping itself up here. this suspect could be trying to exaggerate his own influence with a terror group. he could be making up statements about having ties to al qaeda. so they're being very cool to it and not independently confirming ktd al qaeda's connection. today in his remarks the president said the u.s. will not just stay on against but will stay offense and go after the terrorists in places like yemen. why that is significance is in this al qaeda statement today. they claim that it's an attempted terror the threat on christmas day was a retaliation for air strikes against al qaeda in yemen in recent days. the u.s. has not claimed credit or responsibility for those air strikes taking out leaders in recent days, but the president going out publicly and telling the word we're staying on offense against terrorists in yell men. it was a clear signal with top

white house aides that the us is rooting out terrorists in yemen. there's a real confrontation behind the scenes larry. >> larry: is the america taking the right steps to combat terrorism? we'll ask the first homeland security chief, old friend tom ridge, next.

>> larry: "wild live" we welcome

the forrer governor of pennsylvania, tom ridge. he's president and ceo of ridge global and author of the book "the test of our times: america under siege and how we can be safe again." tom was telling me during the break kind of an ironic story. want to repeat it, tom? >> a friend of mean who worked with me in the white house called me on december 22nd and reminded me that this past year that december 22nd, 2001 is the richard reid attempt. remember the shoebomber and part of the explosive he material he tried to detonate at that time was the same material that this terrorist used as well. interesting eight years. >> larry: boy. what's your reaction to the president's statement today? >> i think he's spot on with regard to beefing up security protocols and the watch list. one of the more interesting observations that folks haven't made and i know secretary napolitano obviously clarified

her statement today. i can tell you as first secretary of homeland security, we were only a consumer of information and we really didn't generate it. you can only act on things that you you know, and the question remains in my mind what was the e-mail or the communication from the department of state -- from the counselor's office to the terrorist screening center. the department of homeland security doesn't run the tse. that's the department of justice and the fbi. so there's a shared responsibility to keep us safe, but there's shared accountability. when the president says we need to look at the watch list, i think he's onto go the. what is the mentality and the culture, what are we going to do to make sure more information, particularly with that kind of information that sends warning signals out, gets to the people that can act on it. whether you're in the battlefield in iraq or afghanistan or a screener at the airport, you need actionable nfg. i'm not sure all this information was in the hands of tsa at the time. >> larry: should the president have spoken sooner?

>> well, i think those decisions -- i'm going to leave that to the white house. i think he had secretary napolitano out there speaking, and i think she clarified that one -- the statement she made yesterday. i understood what she was talking about. i don't think any right thinking person actually believed that secretary napolitano thought the system worked. obviously, it was flawed. i think what she was referring to was that after the incident occurred, there are certain procedures and protocols to put in place. that worked smooutly. when you have somebody on the counterterrorism watch list who has bought a one-way ticket and paid cash and his father, his father shows up at the counselor's office, a reputable businessman and says i think my son's god radical, all these pieces -- all these warning signals create a puzzle, a picture that is very threatening and nobody did anything about it. it reminds me of what happened in the hasan case six, eight

weeks ago. you had different bits and pieces of information and nobody's is connecting them. there's enough to tell you this is potentially a dangerous situation but nobody is communicating. >> the current secretary tried to clarify that today on cnn's "american morning." watch. >> you said throughout this the system worked smoothly. what exactly worked in your opinion? >> that's a phrase taken out of context. what i said is moving forward, meaning once the incident happened, we were able to immediately notify the 128 flights in the air as well as airports on the ground domestically, internationally. our law enforcement partners, our other ail yus snited safety procedures to make sure this could not happen on other flights and people were watching out for it on other flights even as we focused on what went wrong part of this one. >> so you recognize it didn't work smoothly leading up to this? >> obviously, it didn't.

no secretary of homeland security would say that. >> larry: governor, have a lot of things been prevented that we don't know about? >> well, i think there have been. one of the things you don't know about is the number of people that we have turned away because their name is on the watch list. or on the no-fly list. the challenge associated with this incident, larry, isn't what secretary napolitano said or her clarification. it's that the clash of cultures that i encounterwhen we set up the department of homeland security, the difference between t old institutions of the cold war, be there law enforcement or intelligence community and the new department, the department of homeland security, the old cold war mentality was need to know. the new war, the new paradigm, the new enemy requires a need to share. when the president said today he wants to scrub the watch list and see what the gaps were.

understand precisely why the total picture was not available to the terrorist screening centers so that this personal could not have boarded the plain. why the sat department didn't revoke his visa immediately is beyond belief in my judgment either. it's a clash of cultures and institutional challenge. dhs can only act on information it has, and they didn't have all the information at its disposal. >> is america more other les skurl. this is about the time when governor bush left office compared to now. we ask him in 60 seconds. [ announcer ] if you think about it, this is a lot like most job search sites. - they let everyone in, - [ crowd groans ] so the best people can't stand out. join theladders.com. the premium job site for only $100k+ jobs... and only $100k+ talent.

and all of these. paid invoices go right here. bang! - that hasn't been paid yet. - what? - huh-uh. - all my business information is just a phone call away-- to my wife... who's not answering. announcer: there's a better way to run your business. intuit quickbooks online organizes your business in one place. it easily creates invoices and helps you stay on top of your business anytime, anywhere. this is way better. get a 30-day free trial at intuit.com. >> i think clearly we're safer, but it's equally clear, given the several incidents that have

occurred in the last couple months in country, that we still have very serious gaps in information sharing, and we've learned given this recent incident that heez are individuals who are fairly strategic in their thinking, they're very patient. we have a long, long way to go. we're going to be at this for a long, long time for a generation or two. i'm concerned over years we've lost a sense of urgency. we're not paying attention to minutia, the details absolutely critical in making an assessment as to whether somebody should be on a plane or not. it's not about profiling. we're looking at very important, critical pieces of information and making sure they're shared with the decision-makers. i'm afraid some of the events over the past couple months have suggested that that old paradigm, the need to know, has maybe been receded in some of

these organizations. they're not a willing to share information that we need to make america as safe as we want it to be. they're shared responsibility for this across the board. >> isn't it human nature if you have a heart attack, it's a terrible third week. if you feel good a year later, you don't think as much about taking care. >> that's all right if you're an individual citizen taking care of -- and you want to pay little or less attention to your own welfare, but professionals have responsibilities to be vigilant 24/7. we have a responsibility not only for the department of homeland security but all the multiple agencies across the federal government to be as sensitive to the possibility of a terrorist attack today, tomorrow, and in the future as we were on september 12th, 2001. we're not as sensitive, we don't have that sense of urgency, and it's time to recommit ourselves to it. >> larry: what do you make of the information that two former

get t gitmo detainees are among the leadership of al qaeda in the arabian peninsula, the same group claiming responsibility for the christmas day sha warted attack? what do you make of that? >> we lee r released some from guantanamo that we killed in the battlefields in that region. it's a symptom of a larger challenge and how do you jude indicate this, and how do you make a determination and elbe incarcerate for a long time financial personally. some of these peemt should be incarcerated forever. i'm not surprise heed it happened, and we have to remind ourselves that the process and again, i take a look at this individual who has been charged individually, does that mean he

gets his miranda warnings, the only information we get is if he volunteers it. he's not a citizen of this country. he's a terrorist, and i don't think he deserves the full range of protections of our criminal justice system embodied in the constitution of the united states. >> larry: you miss being in the hunt? >> i miss working with the extraordinary group of men and women who helped me build the department. frankly, i miss not knowing. you asked me some questions. i wish i could provide more specific information if it was possible to do so without inviting confidences. i stay in touch with a lot of good people who work hard to make america safe he. >> larry: we'll keep constantly in touch with you. good seeing you again, governor. happy holidays. >> same to you. >> larry: governor tom ridge, the first u.s. secretary of homeland security. will tighter airport security make flying safer? that's tonight's quick vote. go to cnn.com/larryking and

answer it. we'll be right back. ig deal. i'll just use my phone. let's say we crashed. whoops, your phone's gone. onstar automatic crash response can call to see if you're ok. if you don't answer, they can automatically send help. i think i'll ride with you. now during the chevy red tag event, get an '09 malibu with 0 percent apr for 72 months. see red and save green. now at your local chevy dealer. thanks for coming. it was really nice to meet you, a.j.

yeah, you too. a.j.? (alarm blasting) (screaming) (phone rings) hello? this is bill with broadview security. is everything okay? no. there's this guy - he just smashed in my door. i'm seúling help right now. thank you. (announcer) brink's home security is now broadview security. call now to install the standard system for just $99. the proven technology of a broadview security system delivers rapid response from highly-trained professionals, 24 hours a day. call now to get the $99 installation, plus a second keypad installed free. and, you could save up to 20% on your homeowner's insurance. call now-- and get the system installed for just $99. broadview security for your home or business-- the next generation of brink's home security. call now.

>> larry: we have an outstanding panel to take this all in. peter berg enen is in washingto. in new york is harvey, and he's a terrorism expert as well, and chairman of the department of criminal justice at long island university and author of holy war on the home front, the secret islamic terror network in the united states. finally in washington larry c. johnson, he served as deputy director of the u.s. state

department's office of counterterrorism, former cia analyst and ceo and founder and co-founder of berg associates. peter bergen was the the president's statement today satisfactory? >> yeah. i mean, i think it was satisfactory. i think the statement would have been daifsh if the plane would have blown up, he would have made a statement earlier. i think so, yeah. >> what do you think, jack? >> there's been enough problems he had to address this. i think it was sufficient that napolitano and robert gibbs stepped up early. i think it's beneficial for the american people to realize he's watching this and being briefed on this regularly. i think that's a positive step for all americans to know. >> larry: harvey, cnn has obtained u.s. government photos of what remains of the device which the suspect try he -- tried to blow up the flight.

they show singed underwear with t . would you class this as sophisticated? >> it's a new type of device peculiar to that region. yemen seems to work with petn. this type of device, they made a statement that as you know today they were experimenting with this. it certainly had enough explosive power to take down that a-330 airbus and kill all 278 passengers and 11 crew members aboard. quite frankly the machinery we have in place, the technology could not detect that, except possibly a scanning machine. certainly a puffer might have picked up some of the trace elements of it. it's frightening, larry, that eight years after 9/11 somebody could board a plane regardless of all the mistakes with that type of sophisticated weapon and look what we deal with today.

>> larry: what do you make of the news, larry, that first al qaeda takes credit and two former gitmo detainees released during the bush administration are among the leadership of al qaeda? >> i'm glad they've taken credit, because approximate if nothing else it boosts the united states position with the government of yemen to launch military strikes against what remains of the al qaeda camps. these guys are not terribly bright. when they make that profile, it makes them easier to follow them and identify them and kill them. all in favor of that, the gitmo detainees decided to get back in the fight are fair game. we need to correct one statement. harvey wasn't incorrected. we're talking 15 years. remember it was december 1994 when the bomber of the first world trade center boarded a plane in the southern philippines, he built a device in the air that was made of tatp, gun cotton, cotton balls,

left it on the plane and got off and it blew up. this was a precursor for their plan to blow up 12 jumbo jets over the pacific. we've been dealing with this now for 15 years, and the reality, the sad reality is we still have not taken any firm measures to protect passengers in terms of installing detection systems at passenger screening check pointses. second ridge, when he was in place, he did an excellent job of professionalizing tsa, putting screeners there. he did an excellent job of requiring explosive detection systems for checked baggage. but they did not address the issue of how do you screen passengers and prevent them from carrying explosives on board. >> larry: well said. what's the story with yemen. how do you read this? how deeply rooted? >> i take the samt that they're behind this completely at face value. it accords with previous operations. they try to kill the deputy

minister with a petn bomb on october 28th. he hid it in his underwear and for the through metal detectors. he almost killed the prince and killed himself in the attack. they learned it was possible get it past metal detectors. petn is rarely used in terrorist attacks. the only ones are all ones done by al qaeda, including richard reid, the so-called shoe bauker. he had a friend who had a case of cold feet and didn't go through with his attack. he had a shoe bomb in his house in the united kingdom. he's now in prooison. it would be very naive to presume that's only only person out there. what was unsuccessful as larry points out, it was operator error or the bomb wasn't made

correctly. they have demonstrated they can get it through. that's a problem that we're unfortunately going to deal with in the future. >> larry: the security reviews the president has ordered, will they do any good? we'll talk about it right after the break. to go for it? at the hartford, we help businesses of all kinds... feel confident doing what they do best. by protecting your business, your property, your people. you've counted on us for 200 years. let's embrace tomorrow. and with the hartford behind you, achieve what's ahead of you. ♪

>> larry: jake rice, the the new security reviews the president implemented, are they going to work? >> the fact is there's accessibility out there. when the capability is in place in some areas, if we had taken the intelligence available in this case, sometime people say if we profiled this guy, i mean, in the negative sense, i don't think that's necessary based on the information available, not

the fact he was on a watch list, but he was paying cash and flying one way and his father said we have issues here. just for those reasons alone. i've been stopped in multiple airports because of places i came from. the fact it's happened to me and many other people, it's somewhat shocking this wasn't done in lagos or amsterdam or anyplace else. that's with everything we have in place right now. >> larry: harvey, do you agree with tom ridge that we get a little lax. >> i certainly agree with him. more importantly what this former secretary said, which i think is key, he talked about culture. i could tell you this, larry. there are different cultures within the different agencies that need to cooperate with each other and you get data immediately to the actual data. larry johnson worked with the

agency and with dhs in which we had information. even if we had 500,000 pieces of information. shifting it back and forth between agencies and getting it to tsa or local law enforcement or state law enforcement is a monumental effort. i can tell you, larry, working with local law enforcement, we don't get real time data quickly enough from so-called feds. so i think that really is the issue, and i don't think whatever the president said will rectify that situation. >> larry: larry, do you agree with what tom ridge when he said need to know became need to share and we seem to be going back to need to know? >> not really. the problems that exist today existed under tom ridge and dpised under michael chertoff. let me give you a quick example. down down at difficull air forc base. we had to come up with the name of fema to handle the response. we go to the secret classified

level computer. the photograph of the person in charge was michael, heck of a job, brown. larry, this was three years after the guy had left his job, and that's under the government computer. so, you know, we can't blame a new culture from obama. i've been a critic of the obama administration, but it's disyen yus to say they're treating it differently. under the obama administration you've killed hunn in somalia who was pons i believe for one of the embassy bombings in tanzania. you've got after the pirates. they've had successes. they haven't let up on doing capture/kill operations. as you noted earlier, it was two people released during the bush administration that wound up back on the battlefield in yemen. the bush administration didn't deal with that, and frankly the obama administration is not dealing with that properly. how do we deal with terrorists?

do we treat them according to rules and law or put nem in a military tribunal. throwing them back on the battlefield to kill us again, that's not a plan i believe in. >> larry: i'm going to ask this panel if we can really win a war against terrorism right after this.

we're back. peter bergen, logically can we assume a terrorist is born today somewhere. can we ever win this war? >> look, you can make it and

manage it so it's a nuisance and not a major strategic problem. right now the al qaeda the threat to the united states is not on the strategic level. it's more on the tactical level. even if this guy had succeeded on that plane, that would have been a very, very, very big deal. i'm not sure it would have been a 9/11 style event. maybe in the post-9/11 world it would have been, but we've had american planes blow up and kill a lot of passengers, pan am 103 back in 1988. that dent reorient american foreign policy. the winning looks like terrorism is going to be with us forever. the question is, is it our major national strategic problem or a second order threat. that's, i think, a reasonably possible scenario. >> larry: jack, can we preempt it? >> no. i don't think that you can win this war. i think it's a false premise, really. in the end in my mind this is a whole series of battles one after the other, and those battles take out the bad guys in

one sense but to convince the rest of the muslim world of the 1.2 plus billion people or more that we're not there to kill the rest of them. it's about motivating them to step up for their own benefit and not just our own. it's one series of battles after another, and to take out their capability is really what's important. peter is right when it comes to thatit's always reactive. we have to react to where they're going, right? >> that's absolutely right. i agree with peter. we should limit it. we identified muslim and all 1.5 billion muslims. we're not at war with a concept or terrorism like we're not at war with kamkizes. we have to identify who the enemy is. then we can peel it away and win

that part of it. it's a difficult process because unfortunately most of the people who perform terrorist acts against american assets both here and abroad also have a common variable, and that is this islamic fact. that lies the problem. we're not at war with islam but with a certain portion of that. we have to surgically remove that in order to contain it. >> larry: larry, what do you think? >> i think we're in a better position today than we were on august 1, 2001. we have a lot of talented men and women both in the military and the cia and the fbi that are working together in some areas and going out and debilitated and destroyed key al qaeda and islamic fundamentalist targets. that needs to keep up. peter is exactly right. i like to think more of managing crabgrass. it may never go away, but you can keep it from taking over your yard and creating a complete danger for everybody. some of these crazies will always be there. we've seen them overreach. when they tried to kill the

staudys, they step up their efforting to against these people. when they go into tack stan and kill for pakistanis, the government helped step up the retaliation. finally we see the same in yemen. i think we're moving until the right direction. it's important to keep up not saying it's military or law enforcement. this isn't a light beer commercial. it's both. let's do everything. >> larry: we're going to have all of them back, peter bergen, larry c. johnson. president obama makes a pledge to americans. we'll hear it in 60 seconds.

. >> larry: you've heard some of what president obama had to sayed to about terrorism and what he's doing about it. here's his vow to america in no uncertain terms. watch. >> the american people should remain vigilant but be confident. those plotting against us seek not only to undermine our security but also the open

society and the values that we cherish as americans. this incident, like several that have preceded it, none straights that an alert and courageous citizenry are far more resilient. as a nation we will do everything in our power to protect our country. as americans we will never give in to fear or division. we will be guided by our hopes, our unity and deeply held values. that's who we are as americans. that's what our brave men and women in uniform are standing up for as they spend the holidays in harm's way. we will continue to do everything we can to keep america safe in the new year and beyond. >> larry: the family of the suspect in the christmas day terrorism attempt issued a statement from nigeria. it says in part addition -- >> he reported the matter two

months ago and to some foreign security agencies about a month and a half ago and then sought their assistance to find and return him home. we, the family e-speaking again, provided them with all the information required of us to enable them to do this. it was while we were waiting for the kout come of their investigation that we arose to the shocking news. the family will continue to fully cooperate with local and intermittent security agencies toward the investigation of this matter while we await results of the full investigation. the statement is signed the abdulmutallab family. the terror threat isn't just a security issue, it's a plilt cal one, too and we'll talk with representatives ron paul and sheila jackson-lee and our friend ben stein all next. y. create your own business site with intuit websites. just choose a style, then customize, publish and get found. sweet. get a 30-day free trial at intuit.com.

(announcer) we understand. you need to save money.

>> larry: erica hill will host "ac 360" at the top of the hour. >> we have new detail on the attempted terror attack at the top of the hour including why so many warning signs were missed. could this suspect have been stopped from boarding that flight? he was on a so-called terror watch but not a no mif f-fly li. how does that happen? we'll keeping them honest. we'll speak to passengers on board flight 253. they have a tale that you haven't heard, namely two passengers saw extremely well-dressed men help the suspect board the flight in amsterdam kooch amsterdam. a look at how airport security is already changes. the new policies that have been put in place. if you're flying, you definitely want to know what they are. it's a busy he night, larry, and starts at the top of the hour.

we'll see you then. >> larry: that's erica hill on top of the scene. we meet representative sheila jackson-lee, a member of the homeland security committee and chairs the subcommittee on transportation security and infrastructure protection. representative ron paul is a republican of texas, member of the international relations committee. he was a flight surgeon in the air force and obgyn in civilian life. and ben stein the economist attorney, former presidential speech writer, columnist with "fortune" magazine. representative lee, were you satisfied with the president's statement today, and do you think we're now getting on top of things? >> absolutely, larry. i believe the president has always been on top of this issue of securing the homeland. it is not a partisan issue. it's not a democratic issue or republican issue, and he stood today and indicated we're moving forward on items we've done improving our security and screening, looking to ensure that we're going after the

terrorists who want to come after us. finding al qaeda wherever it is, and yes, doing an inventory and investigation on what happened and why. but several issues we have to address. and one of them is the serious stove piping of intelligence. communicating information that could have prevented this individual from boarding this plane, flight 253. >> larry: congressman paul, does -- is politics outside the door here? >> well, i don't know. depend on our definition of politics. if you disagree iguess it's political. if you agree then it isn't. but, no, the answer to your first question, you know, the statement wasn't all that satisfactory to me. sort of putting the pressure on the people. if we are just more vigilant. it seems to me the people had the responsibility in the embassy should have been more vigilant. we're right now spending $75 billion for intelligence gathering. and look at what we have.

we had fbi agents telling us about the pilots that were flying but not landing an airplane before 9/11. and here we have this incident. i think we come up way short. there's a fundamental flaw in the system. that is government is incapable of doing it. everything nels this country. all the businesses and factories and hotels and everything, they are protected by the owners and by private security. but all of a sudden if you own an airplane you have to depend on the bureaucracy and $75 billion worth of intelligence gathering and all of a sudden we're all going to be safe as long as we're alert and tell everybody what's going on. >> larry: but governments are responsible to do that then, aren't they? we can't have private industry run our security system. >> governments are totally responsible. i was stunned at what president obama said today. i mean it was as if someone said after pearl harbor, okay, we've all got to be vigilant against the japanese and the germans. it's the government's job to protect us. we're paying a fortune in taxes and debt to do it.

they're being like bureaucrats and not really just doing 9:00 to 5:00 work and not getting the job done. this is a war. we've said it over and over. it's not a war against islam but it is a war against terrorists. we know a lot about them. it's not getting shared. i think you get -- i'm not a stockholder of ibm but i think caw yeoh can give this job to ibm and in about a month they'd come up with a system where there would be little dots going on on a dozens people's desks if a guy like this was trying to getain an airplane. >> larry: congresswoman lee, you want to respond to that? >> i do, frankly. we are getting to work. we have been getting to work. but there are problems and, frankly, this needs to be addressed by congress and by the administration. the stovepiping that i was suggesting is a very obvious. this individual who had family members who notified our embassy in nigeria and that information was not transmitted anywhere else until homeland security. it's obvious that homeland security should be the focal point and the key in terms of

acting on any threat to the homeland. that means that the information that we received, that was a viable behavioral assessment that you could have made on this individual. he went to yemen. he has become radicalized. his family has called and, therefore, there was a basis of acting. we don't need to talk about $75 billion. by the way, my friend on the other side of the aisle voted against aviation funding and explosives funding. but what the president can do, added is to make a recess appointment to the individual that is being held up as the tsa administrator by republican senator. leadership is important in this aspect. so i believe the government is responsible. >> we don't need -- >> i take responsibility and we -- >> larry, we don't need -- >> larry: i need to get a break in. hold it, ben. hold it. i've got to get a break in.

>> larry: ron paul, you want to respond first to the congresswoman and then ben. >> yes, i do. >> larry: go ahead. >> one thing that is missing here is never asking the question what is the motive? he said why he did it. he said it because we bombed yemen two weeks ago. that was his motive. osama bin laden said he has a plan for america. first he wants to bog us down in the middle east in a no-win war. he wants to bankrupt this country, demoralize us, as well as have us do things that motivate people to join his radical movement. it seems we've fallen into his trap. why is it off base?

today when the gentleman indicated that he did it because of the bombing. you know what the administration said? they dismissed it. it can't possibly be so. if you dismiss motivations for why they hate us, we can never resolve this. floos hate on both sides. you have to ask why do they hate and they usually come up with a reason. and we're foolish not to take that into consideration. >> larry: ben? >> well, that's -- i never heard anything quite like that in my whole life. what he's saying basically is we are doing something wrong by defending ourselves. look, if these terrorists are trying to kill the government of yemen, we've got to help defend them. they're our friends. we can't just let al qaeda run wild. if we try to stop them -- >> why? >> why should we stop them? because they are terrorists and murders and very anti-american. >> why are they terrorists? >> surely congressman -- >> why are they terrorists? >> they're terrorists and murderers because they are psychos. >> they're terrorists because we're occupiers.

>> but -- >> no see -- >> no, we're not occupiers. that's the same anti-semitic argument we've heard. >> now that is a vicious attack. you -- >> it's not a vicious attack. >> larry, i'd like to respond to some of these points that are being made. >> larry: let's go back to sheila. >> we don't need to get into that. >> this guy was -- >> i'd like a referee. >> you discredit yourself. >> i think i can referee between the congressman and ben. >> larry: look at this, folks. two republicans going at it. this is fascinating. with a democratic liberal in the middle. >> i can referee between the two of them. >> this is why -- >> let me just say that -- >> this guy walked on an airplane -- >> let me referee, please. >> larry: all right. sheila say something. >> yeah, let me referee, please. that is interesting. >> larry: both have good points, right? >> they have good points.

let me clarify and try to say that -- congressman paul has a point on our positions that we took in iraq which obviously created a very terrible atmosphere and yee we all asked the questions what were the results. we must be reminded that the terrorists acted under president bush's clock. and this can't be an issue of the president's inactivity, per se, and a lack of commitment to the homeland. but we have to do better. and i believe we need to have behavioral assessment. there was no reason for this individual to have a visa that still was in place until 2010 for them to be able to travel. there was no reason for him not to be detected because of his behavior. behavioral assessment. we need to make the homeland security of the nation focus. secretary of homeland secretary should be the point person and