survival against the odds comes the grim reality of what lies next, of what the future holds. i have no hope his brother says. you want to leave? where to i ask? to anyone where but here. he'll live here after he's charged from the hospital for a few days. he flirted with death underground for 12 days, and when he comes out it's an underground shack that he and his family will try to rebuild their he lives. cnn, port-au-prince, haiti. >> and that is it for us for now. thanks for joining us. "larry king live" starts right now. >> larry: tonight millions have been given to help quake-ravaged haiti but it aid getting where it needs to go? what about haitians that lost limbs to crush injuries and amputations?

how do they survive in a land of limited medical care and manual labor? healther mills with a heartfelt appeal base odd first hand experience along with cnn's dr. sanjay gupta. they join us. haitian adoptees find loving parents and new homes in america. is their status settled? the federal government's poured tens of billions of your dollars into economic stimulus. worthwhile? big fat waste? we'll square off ron paul and robert reich take on each other next on "larry king live." good evening. residents of port-au-prince waited in lines for hours today to get their first relief supplies. bags of rice and beans. food and supplies are slowly making their way to the people who need them so desperately. to find out where things stand,

anderson cooper stands by as he has ever since this started two weeks ago tonight. he is, of course, in port-au-prince. i saw a film from the bbc anderson in which they brought in supplies and took them back. what's going on? >> well, we're seeing a lot of food distribution at this point. they're handing out food in a lot of different areas. i saw a food hantdout by action against hunger, water distribution is a key issue right now. sometimes if there are unruly crowds or things get beyond the control, they will might have away. for the most part things are very orderly he. we haven't seen, you know, any kind of large scale problems. i spent today looking into the issue of all the new orphans created in the wake of catastrophe. there's no telling how many there are at this point, but unicef is very concerned that these kids could be trafficked, taken for illegal adoptions, for shady adoptions and tracked for sexual exploitation and domestic

work. they're trying to figure out how orphans there are and protect as many as they can. a lot of doctors are concerned as well, larry. >> larry: from your standpoint, is this progressing about correctly? >> well, you know, i don't think it's progressing fast enough for anybody, even the people involved in this thing would like to see it move faster. there's he benoable changes every single day, and certainly today was a lot different than five days ago or what we saw on friday. we're seeing a lot more structure, a lot for food handouts and a lot more of water distribution. most people in the city still don't have access to clean drinking water in their he homes or even at their local pumps. it's handed out and carted in in these giant tubs that unicef and action against hunger uses. so nothing is normal here, larry. but things are certainly moving. >> larry: thank you, anderson.

we'll check with you later after this program on cnn. joining us in port-au-prince, dr. sanjay gupta cnn chief medical correspondent and a practicing neurosurgeon. what's the latest on the medical situation, sanjay? in the early days you painted a desperate scene. what's it like now? >> reporter: well, i think in many ways it's gotten better, but it's all relative, as you know, larry. a couple of things have improved. we have more personnel, surgeons actually on the ground being able to take care of patients. you're lookinged in one of the tents here. a lot of postoperative patients, patients that had operations including amputations. they're in tents like this outside a hospital. this is a good location to try and take care of these patients. lots of doctors, still short of nurses and physical therapists that are necessary. so there's work to be done. i have to tell you to your point

it's a lot better than it was a few days ago, and it looks like it will be better a few days from now. >> heather mills, an affirm tee herself, will join us in the next segment. the amputations necessity at a timed by the crush injuries are the significant injury of this disaster. do we any sense how many amputations have taken place? >> reporter: well, it's hard to know. we've tried to figure out that number ourselves. there's so many various locations like this set up around the city and really around the country. a lot of these places are performing amputations because, you know, someone has a crush injury and taking the arm or taking the leg ends up being necessary. so they estimate it could be up to 200,000 amputations, larry. think about that number for a second. it's staggering. 200,000 amputations necessary

possible because of this earthqua earthquake. 95 ers 95% of people with crush injuries need an amputations. that's the reality of haiti. that's how things are taken care of here. >> larry: we're going to try to help in the next segment when our guest joins us, but port-au-prince had one full-time prosthetic lab as i understand it, a limb manufacturer. what happened to it? >> reporter: well, you know, like a lot of other buildings here, the building was destroyed or greatly disabled as a result of the earthquake. the building is not standing anymore. there is equipment inside the building, but getting that ekwemt or render it useable may be too difficult of a task. i think that's why you start to hear the call say, look, we need to have some help come in here. we know how this story plays out. people with amputations need prosthetics. approximate if you do not have a

leg, you cannot walk around the city of port-au-prince in haiti, that's a tough way to go. a lot of these people cannot survive. we know what's necessary as a result of all these amputations, larry. >> larry: isn't infection a big problem? >> reporter: no question about it. a big problem in two ways. this is very important. what would otherwise seem like a harmless cut or gash on a hand or leg, because of the squall lid conditions in which people live and the lack of antibiotics, that simple cut could turn into a devastating infection that would possibly require an amputation. people that have had amputations, keeping that wound clean and the dressings clean is very important and very hard to do. a lot of people, once they leave a tent like this, once they leave here, they may not get follow-up care or dressing changes or antibiotics. again, an otherwise relatively

harmless infection can be a very big deal. >> larry: stay right there. thousands of people have lost one or more limbs in this earthquake. heather mills who lost part of her leg in an accident in 1993 will join us next to talk about the medical and mental support these amputees in haiti will need. first, as we go to break, we want to show you some exclusive new footage cnn has obtained of the moments after the earthquake struck two weeks ago tonight.

joining from lon ton is heather mills. heather is working with physicians for peace. she's urging people to donate their old prosthetics to the people of haiti. she's an affirm tee, having lost part of her left leg in a 1993 road accident. staying with us in port-au-prince is dr. sanjay gupta, our chief medical correspondent. heather, you're working with physicians for peace. you want mobility supplies. can people actually donate their old prot thettics and it will work elsewhere? >> well, we started this program, larry, in '94 after i

lost my leg. we had to find a really quick way of getting limbs to the amputees in yugoslavia. we fitted 27,000 people with the same system. in the indian earthquake when we set up the tents, with worked with the lions club charity there. so i always like to not reinvent the wheel and find out exactly which agencies, which cling clin shuns are working on the ground. so physicians for peace have been on the ground for several years. they had a great clinic for rehabilitation and prosthetic care, and now it's been destroyed. what i'm tried to do is appeal to people to go to all the hangar clinics and most amputees know what that means and contact physicians for peace for take back any limbs they're not using. we can reuse the components.

most importantly at the moment are crutches to give someone the freedom and ability to take the pressure off the care taker z around them is to get around and get mobile before atrophy sets in. >> larry: how do you know where to send them? what did you do with the limb? where do you send it? >> you should contact physiciansforpeace.org and you can take it back to your local clinic you got it from in the first place and ask them to help locate the local hangar company who offered to collect them all, store them for us. what i'd like to do is get as many crutches as possible first, because while there's infection, we can't fit limbs. i've collected a number of pom made, which is a temporary sponge blow up leg because the sooner you can create circulation in the early days of healing, the sooner it will start to work and minimize

infection. >> larry: sanjay, is the health care infrastructure in haiti ready to handle an influx like this, reaction to this program tonight? can they handle hundreds of crutches and wheelchairs and prosthetic limbs coming in at once? >> reporter: well, you know, that's a good question. they're certainly going to need that. whether now is exactly is the right time, i think as heather knows, they're in the acute phase of things. amputations are still being performed, larry. it takes some time after an amputation is performed. the wound has to heal and the spe swelling has to go down. i think there's several different organizations which have been performing these amputations. there's so many we're standing outside a swiss tent right now with the partners in health

organization, mt. sinai, there's so many different organizations doing this. it will be a little bit of time before we're in that phase, but it's coming no doubt. >> larry: heather, i know you did this historically on our show once. i would appreciate it if you did it again. would you show us your limb so that people around the world can get an idea of how they'll be helping. >> this is actually the kind of limb that we need to find to donate, but like sanjay said, i'm fully aware they're not going to need the limbs for weeks, but it takes weeks to coordinate and takes weeks for people to donate and get them packed and shipped as you saw when disaster happen before they got food, before they got things. so it's thinking three or four steps ahead, and it would be very soon that they will need crutches most importantly. this is an artificial leg typical, and this is a socket on my leg which has a screw

attachment. what we do is you have an attachment in here, and then the leg just goes on and pops in. it actually screws in. so that's the attachment we need to have to make it very simple for people to be able to get it about so that it doesn't get hot. but we need to collect as many as possible, because it takes us weeks to actually take this limb apart and find the components and put them into boxes. what we don't want is when they are able and ready to have a limb fitted, that we're still messing about and struggling to do this. this is why i work with companies that are already doing it down there, so you're not just going in, you know, blindfolded. you're working with people that have been there for several years as physicians for peace have. >> larry: if you want to get more information, go to physiciansforpeace.org. we'll take a break.

an american vsurvivor will join us next. she lost part of her leg crushed in the earthquake. back in 60 seconds.

joining us now is an american who survived the earth wake but her leg was amputated below the knee after she was evacuated to the united states. she's at jackson memorial hospital in miami. how are you doing? >> i'm doing great. >> now you're obviously grateful. you have access to major medical care. how long before you'll get a prosthetic? >> it will still be a couple weeks for me. last friday the surgeons were finally able to close up the wound on my leg. so now the skin needs to heal, and the swelling needs to go down and then i can fitted for a

pros r prosthetic. >> did you see what heather just showed us? >> no, i wasn't. >> larry: okay. well, it looked pretty simple. heather, what advice would you have for christa? >> she looks quite positive. i can see in her face that she's gone through a very difficult time, but i'm sure she's got a lot of love and support of her family and friends around her. the most important thing is to take care of your health and get the best kind of prosthetic that you can in america. the most important thing is not cosmetic immediately because you're residual limb will shrink as time goes on, as i'm sure you've been told. i have a form of 6,000 amputees that talk to each other that probably live in an area near you. if you go to heathermills.org you can talk to many people and learn things. if you've got a blister or bleeding later, you don't need to be off your limb. you can use blister plasters,

and lots of little tips. one of the quickest way i helped is to help other people. it's like a natural adrenaline feeling that you are connecting with other people, so if you get in touch with us when you're feeling ready, then you can go on and help a lot of the victims from haiti yourself if you feel that you want to do something like that. but you obviously and hopefully get the best care, so we'll communicate. >> larry: you'll be in touch. it's heathermills.org? is that it? >> that's it. >> larry: sanjay, how is haiti going to be able to handle all of these amputees? i know your specialty is brain surgery, but you know the body pretty well. it's going to be an enormous task, isn't it, assuming they get a lot of help coming in? >> yeah. there's no question about it, larry. it's an enormous task. heather should know that the

types of patients that this is going to help. we met a 7-year-old boy not that long ago, marie claude is his name. he's 7 years old. this house literally fell on his leg. he required an amputation. he's back with his mother. his four other siblings and father perished in the home. he needs a leg. if he doesn't have a leg, he can't get around. it's hard to get around in wheelchairs in port-au-prince. you need to be able to walk. with this amputation he needs help with the prosthetic device. how is port-au-prince going to deal with in? it's going to be very, very tough. the infrastructure is going to change completely. they're going to be known for amputations and at the didn't do a good job of taking care of people with disabilities before this. this will need a lot of focus with the help of heather and a lot of other people. >> we salute you again and call

on you again. it's physiciansforpeace.org. >> lease get in touch and help us. anything medical would be great. also one last thing larry before you go. >> larry: quickly. >> one last thick. a anyone who wants to volunteer, we do a two-week rotation which won't you take you away from your patients. >> larry: thank you. we'll keep in touch on your process and check back, of course, with dr. gupta. thank you very much. the wilkins family was in the process of adopting a haitian boy when the earthquake hit. we told you their story last week. little samuel is in the united states flown in from haiti with 80 other orphans. he's right here with his family, next. you're the colon lady!

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i know symbicort won't replace a rescue inhaler. within 15 minutes symbicort starts to improve my lung function and begins to treat my symptoms. that makes symbicort a good choice for me. you have choices. ask your doctor if symbicort is right for you. (announcer) if you cannot afford your medication, astrazeneca may be able to help. >> there he is. >> there he is. sleepy face. going into the airport. they're coming home. here they come. ready or not. >> larry: this is a happy night for us around "larry king live" here at cnn. joining us are joe and jill wilg

wilg wilgens. they were in the process of finalizing the adoption. he travelled to haiti last week to bring their son and other children home to the united states. joe, jill, and samuel are here with us now. joining us in a while, jason and jamie stanley. they were the adopting parents of 6-year-old twins from haiti when the earthquake hit. the twins arrived in the united states on friday with their son, samuel. the stanleys' daughters are there with the family. first we con straights here on the wilkens. what's it like to have him home? >> it's wonderful to have him here. we've been looking for this for the past several months, and over a year now. and being a dad for three days, everything is new and -- >> >> larry: first child? >> first child, yes.

>> larry: how did he handle the flight? >> from haiti he slept the whole flight, so that was nice. of course, i had two other kids next to me, so i was kind of -- they were a little more -- >> larry: you had 80 on the plane altogether? >> 81. >> larry: they disbursed in miami in. >> we went through immigration for seven and a half hours while they did the paperwork. that was a time i'll never forget. >> larry: when can he become a citizen? >> that's one mountain we have ahead of us. i think a he lot of us were at the legalization point where we had -- he had our last name, since that time we've lost that. we have to start over. we don't know what it entails yet. we haven't had a lot of information shared. we're praying that the government does the right thing and possibly grants u.s. citizenship. they've been through so much already, and starting over seems like too much of a mountain in front of us.

>> samuel is 20 months? >> what happened to his parent science. >> his parents were killed in a natural disaster in 2008 when he was four months old. >> larry: the hurricane? >> we believe so. >> larry: he's been at the orphanage ever since? >> he was in november of 2008 in the orphanage and we were matched up in december of 2008. >> larry: do they give you a lot of information about his health? >> at least when he was at the orphanage, we got monthly updates on his size, his height, his weight, if there are any illnesses with him. >> larry: do you expect a long battle on citizenship? >> i pray not, larry. obviously we've been at this since 2007. we need it to be over. we need him to be with us for good and not worry about it. >> larry: let us go to des moines, iowa. jason and jamie stanley are in the process of finalizing an adoption from the same agency. how are the kids doing, jason?

>> they're doing very well, larry. we're down one daughter. everything was a little overwhelming for us. whitney is off screen but here in person right now. >> and ali is there, right sf. >> she's right here, that's right. they're doing very well. it was a little overwhelming for them, but they're really fitting into the family well. we got a new puppy for christmas, and that's breaking the ice. she's mothering her and having a great time with her. >> larry: do they have the same citizenship issue? >> they do, yes. >> larry: so you think you're going to have a battle on your hands? >> we might. we haven't had an opportunity to talk with our social wosher yet, but we'll do that hopefully this week to understand what we need today and whether an adoption attorney needs to get involved. we've come three years and won't stop now. >> larry: will the state of iowa be involved? >> most likely is our understanding, yes. unless there's a change we don't

know about that we hope will happen. as jill mentioned we hope there's an opportunity for them to not make all the families go through this, but we will do what we need to do because they're our kids. >> larry: more with our new families when we come back. red using nanotechnology to convert plants into components. the first-ever hs hybrid. only from lexus. [ female announcer ] olay regenerist is on a roll. new anti-aging eye roller. reduces puffiness immediately -- and also helps with lines and wrinkles. not surgery. this is our way to do your eyes. new regenerist anti-aging eye roller.

>> larry: joe was on the plane, right? >> i was, yes. >> larry: jason and jamie were in miami waiting for the twins, right? >> that's correct, yes. >> larry: what was that like, jason? >> it was wonderful. they put it up on the arrival board. i got a picture of jamie pointing to it, the landing status. we didn't know at that time how much of a long haul we had in front of us. another eight or nine hours. we were happy they were on american soils. >> larry: how did the 6-year-olds react when they saw you? >> he saw me and i said his name and he ran to me and hugged me stronger than i thought a 6-year-old could hug. she had a shy smile and gave me a hug. she was a little sick, so her

emotions were mabl a little bit tempered. but they were happy. they were happy. >> larry: joe and jill, is the united states government getting involved in your hopeful matter to expedite things? >> we heard from a senator today through e-mail that said they were going to check on it. they had so many e-mails and they were behind on so many issues. we need to say this is priority, and we hope they stay involved and really do help us out. >> larry: we hope so, too. the same with you jason? do you expect the government to get involved? >> we hope so. we hope so. we don't really know. we haven't heard anything yet. we're waiting for that to be worked out, but we know there's other things on their minds as well with the orphans just created in haiti. we want them to be taken care of, too. the orphanage expects to be full again in two weeks tops. with the adoption status still up in the air down there, they need support.

who knows how long those kids will be there. >> larry: good luck to all of you. we'll stay on top of this story and keep in constant touch. great meeting the twins in des moines and here in los angeles to finally see samuel. say l.a. >> l.a. >> l.a. >> larry: good enough. ivan watson covered this story from the beginning. he's in port-au-prince with the latest. you have the story of a man construction worker. what's that about, ivan? >> reporter: yeah. he was a realtor, larry, and basically i found a guy. he was starting to try to take apart what's left of his house and try to salvage a few things. i followed him home to where he's now living. this guy had a he three-story hou

house. there's a sprawling refugee camp and it's filthy. his whole family is sleeping on the ground in this filth kwi place and everything that he owned, everything he worked for was in this house that was smashed. even if he gets some food from the u.s. military for from aid organizations, this guy's dignity is crushed. he's accustomed to work and make a good life and home for his family. now they're sleeping under a sheet. it's really, really tough to see this guy in this awful position. >> larry: ivan, wouldn't construction workers be in demand in haiti now? >> reporter: this man was actually a real estate agent, and i think he was making a lot of money renting out the ground floor of his building as renting it out basically to help pay for his family.

that's gone now. i asked him, you know, everybody is alive and everybody is okay, and yes, everybody is okay, but now what? what does this guy do now? what do hundreds of thousands of other people like him do? getting a bag of rice, it's wonderful and it will keep them alive for a week maybe, for four days. imagine how much they lost. i asked his daughter does it make you sad living here? the tent was like a sauna. she kind of said, very, very, very. she just stared off into the distance and tried not to cry. it's a 17-year-old girl. >> larry: thanks, ivan. we'll be in touch again tomorrow. ivan watson doing great work, by the way. food and supplies are slowly making it to the survivors of haiti's earthquake. we'll talk to two people bringing in that relief when we come back. advisor:... ms. davis, this is onstar. i've received a signal you've been in a crash... i'm contacting emergency services... 911 dispatch:...onstar reporting a front end crash...

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we're just learning tonight that actor john travolta is flying one of his jets to haiti tonight on a relief mission. we're told he's bringing supplies and a group of nurses to the country to help. let's check back with anderson cooper. what are we focusing on on "ac 360" tonight, anderson? >> larry, a lot of different stuff. we'll bring you up to date on what is happening today and some of the dramatic things over the weekend. thousands of children newly orphaned, this is a new generation of orphans in this country. i spoke with one doctor at a

hospital camp outside port-au-prince who is worried about kids under her care maybe stolen taken by childhood traffickers. we'll talk to unicef and members from save the children about their concerns and on you real these concerns of trafficking are. we have remarkable new video tonight that shows the panic and the horror immediately he after the earthquake h. we just got this today. a lot of haitians are concerned that each new aftershock will trigger another disaster. sanjay gupta takes a look at the fear in this capital, and how will this country recover. we look inside the presidential palace. we look at how the government here is operating and/or not operating and how everybody plans to contribute to the rebuilding of this country. those stories and a lot more, larry, on "360." >> larry: that's "ac 360" at the

top of the hour. joining us is bill white. he's joining the board of directors of the catholic group, a group working in haiti since 1912. also there is a doctor, cmmb's country director for haiti. what's the situation from your standpoint on the ground? >> well, larry, thanks so much for having us, cmmb on your show. go to cmmb.org to understand what this amazing organization is doing. but i spent about 20 minutes today with the general over at the united states embassy and he discussed the amadzing efforts on behalf of the haitian people by the u.s. military and other militaries out there helping. they're doing a phenomenal job. i want to thank the u.s. military for always being there and for being such a strong support for the people of haiti. one thing, larry, i want to tell you. 13,000 drivers in new york city, the hispanics across america

donated half a million pounds of food, water, clothing and medical supplies and it came to us in the intrepid because of our affiliation with the military. they'll come into haiti on thursday and friday. we're here today to make sure it gets out to the haitian people. we want to thank all those that donated, especially the military to help us coordinate. this doctor next to me, larry, lost her leg, and so she understands as a doctor, as a woman who is working here, what the real needs are of these people today. >> larry: the health care system wasn't the best to begin with. you seem to be -- aren't you up against it, diane? >> larry, i didn't hear what you said. sorry. >> larry: isn't the problem huge that you face? >> yes, it is humongous. it's humongous. there's no word to describe what we are seeing now.

and the patients that are all over the place, some of them have no supplies, not enough surgical antibiotic supplies for the patients. many physicians have no supplies, and those people are sitting there, standing there with open fractures, hip fractures, and if the american physician or other doctors without borders whatever physicians where they come from, if they leave, those people are still there for a long, long, long time without the care that they need. we need the antibiotic supplies. >> larry: weem 'll check back w both of you. go to cmmb.org. thank you both. up next, $787 billion of your tax money is being used to fix the economy. a year after the stimulus bill was passed, we ask, is it working? a debate from the left and right when we come back.

>> larry: before we get into the stimulus project as promised, ed henry reports tonight that president obama is set to announce a three-year freeze on non-security discretionary spending. it would freeze discretionary spending at $447 billion. joining us to talk about that and to debate whether the stimulus is working, robert

reich, he was secretary of labor in the clinton administration and now professor of public policy, university of california besrkele berkeley. his most recent book is "super capitalism." and representative ron paul of texas a member of the house armed services committee and the joint economic committee. he's the author of "end of the fed." what do you pak of the freezing of domestic he programs in three years? >> i don't think it makes much sense, larry. i'll tell you why. the government under the circumstances we face is the purchaser of last resort. consumers are not buying. they're still scared for good reason. businesses are not investing very much. they don't want to invest if they're not consumers out there. government has to spend. this is something that a lot of people have difficulty understanding, because you don't want bigger deficits in the long term, but in the short-term government has to spend more to get the economy moving, so get jobs so people can actually work

and generate a larger economy and therefore if the outside budget, long-term budget down. having a freeze right now on discretionary spending and effectively saying to the world, to wall street, to the country we're not doing any more deficit spending makes absolutely no sense. >> larry: all right. congressman paul, your thoughts. >> well, i don't think mr. reich has too much to worry about. nothing is going to be frozen in washington, d.c. as a matter of fact, even what obama is saying is not going into effect for a year, and the congress won't let it happen. i think mr. reich's sentiments are well represented in washington. i actually want to see more money spent, not less. it's just that who has the discretion to spend it? that's the issue. when the government spends it, they malinvest it. we don't have the problem because there's not enough consumption or spending.

that is not going to solve the problem. what we should have done is maybe suspend the income tax for three years. it wouldincome tax for years. it would have cost us less than dealing out the big banks and special interests. it would be more money. the people could make a decision on whether they should liquidate their dit and how they would invest. >> let me agree -- >> larry: address the stimulus. do that quickly, robert. >> i want to agree with the congressman on one point. bailing out the big banks instead of helping main streak was a version of trickle down economics and it doesn't work. >> larry: okay. we're scheduled to discuss the stimulus and we'll begin by showing you an interview with diane sawyer that aired on abc tonight. the president making his case for his handling of the economy. let's listen. >> we have stopped the economic contraction. the economy is growing again and we did create or save several million jobs. that's not my opinion. that's the opinion of conservative economists as well as liberal economists, but we

still lost 7 million jobs. and so, you know, i understand why the american people, their attitude is not it could have been worse. their attitude is, how do we make sure we keep on getting it better? that's what we'll be talking about on wednesday. >> larry: okay. simply put, robert, is the stimulus working? same question for both of you. start with robert. >> well, i think unemployment, the official unemployment rate, larry, would be about 13% now were it not for the stimulus. for all the reasons i gave you, when everybody else stopped spending, the last resort. i can't guarantee -- nobody knows exactly what's going to happen next year. probably, given the fact that the states are in effect mounting an anti-stimulus package because they are raising taxes and they are cutting jobs and cutting services we're probably going to have rely on more from the federal government. >> larry: ron? >> well, i think it's real hard to measure the number of jobs saved or not. i think the stimulus, obviously,

helped wall street. wall street's doing very, very well. to say the stimulus was the answer and just do more of it fails to recognize that when government spends money it actually does help the gdp. there's a big difference if people get money, save money, and it's invested -- building cars or something versus when the government takes the money and spends it on a make-work job or spends money on a weapons system that gets blown up overseas or bombs blown up overseas that raises the gdp. right now the happiest people are at wall street. the very people who got bailed out. and main street -- the employment numbers, these people are very unhappy. i do think it's a stretch to say they know exactly the number of jobs that they saved and like you pointed out, larry, there are actually a lot -- the president pointed out there are a lot less jobs available right now. >> larry: we'll pick up on that in a moment. all week long cnn is breaking down how the $787 billion stimulus money is being spent. we're calling it the stimulus project. you can get more in-depth

information on all this at cnn.com/stimulus. more with ron paul and robert rishe when we come back [ male announcer ] this is nine generations

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>> larry: we're back talking about whether president obama's $787 billion stimulus is a success of failure with robert reich and ron paul. let's take a call. hobart, indiana. hello. >> caller: hello, larry? >> larry: yeah. >> caller: my question is for the senator. >> larry: go ahead. >> caller: president obama spent more in his first year of his presidency than bush spent in his last term. to put this spending freeze on now, is he trying to act like a populist now or pivoting to the right? >> well, i think that the fact it isn't going to go into effect until 2011 there's a little bit of politicking going on. i don't believe there will be a freeze. if they did freeze it that would be very bad. i'm not necessarily for a freeze. i want to reduce spending. i want to save tens if not hundreds of billions of dollars overseas and bring that money back home so more of this money can flow into education and

medicine and different things. i want a lot of cuts but i want the people to spend money. within the government spends money on a job they may create a job but what you don't see is you might have taken a better more productive longer lasting job away from the productive economy. so even if you can prove there's been a couple extra jobs it doesn't really solve our problem. >> larry: robert, are you generally optimistic in this climate? >> i wish i could be optimistic, larry. i see the extent of joblessness, the extent of misery, homelessness or people worrying about loosing their homes and their savings. frankly, i worry. i look to 201 and say to myself, once the stimulus ends, as it will, and if there is a spending freeze and if the fed does what the fed is likely to do, and that is tighten and raise interest rates, where is the motivation going to come? where is the energy? where is the demand going to come from in our economy? because, again, consumers an

businesses and exports just can't lift the economy by themselves. i wish i could be as optimistic as ron paul about the capacity of the country to just pull money out of national defense and bring it home and give it to consumers as tax breaks. sounds good, but i'll tell you, i don't know too many republicans who want to take money out of national defense. >> larry: costa mesa, california. quickly. >> caller: is it possible to change the economy ultimately without getting out of these trade deals that we have? wto and all these trade deals we have with china and the rest of the world? do we have to get out of those? >> larry: ron? >> well, i don't think you have to. some of those things we would get out of. i think the problem with what mr. reich says is that the country's bankrupt is our problem. if i'm bankrupt or somebody else is bankrupt what they do is they

have to pull back. they have to quit spending. they have to work harder. they have to pay off their debt. we have dreamed up this concoction under keynesian economics that you don't have to do that. it's the opposite thing of what austrian economics teaches. they say what you should do is liquidate debt, get rid of the mal-investment, start over again. get the prices of housing down. don't prop the houses up. stimulate houses. what i say we're doing exactly the opposite of what we should do. >> larry, ron paul sounds an awful lot like herbert hoover in 1932. herbert hoover and secretary of treasu treasury melon said liquidate everything and everything will be found. it took franklin d. roosevelt to show everybody keynesianism was right. if you have to go into debt to get people back to work that's better than not doing