images from the vancouver winter olympics. this week, is iran daring the world to strike its nuclear facilities. the famed commando who is now israel's defense minister, ehud barak joins us for an exclusive interview. hello and welcome to our program. i'm christiane amanpour.

israel's most decorated soldier, defense minister, ehud barak, was in new york and washington this week, talking to just about everyone at the top of the u.s. government about how to handle iran. he is a complicated man, sometimes known as the master of stealth. he was a key architect in the famed raid in 1976, storming a hijacked plane and rescuing all inside. he became prime minister of israel in 1999, after scoring the most decisive victory in any israeli election. but his attempts to reach a middle east peace agreement along with president bill clinton and palestinian leader yasser arafat failed, as did his bid for re-election. but now he's back in benjamin netanyahu's government. iran, middle east peace, and the assassination of that hamas official in dubai, there is much to talk about with our exclusive guest, ehud barak, israel's

defense minister. thank you so much for joining us. >> thank you, christiane. >> let's start with iran. i know there's a whole host of issues, but you, from what i gather, have really been focusing on that with all of your meetings here. what do you make of the latest reports in "the new york times" that iran has moved some 4,300 pounds of enriched uranium out of underground storage and into an above-ground facility where it wants to further enrich it for its medical facility? >> i spent the day trying to encourage the economy of this city, so i didn't read the report. >> so you were shopping, in other words? >> yeah, yeah. of course. i didn't read this report. there is a freedom of speech and freedom of speculation. i can hardly speculate about what the meaning of some developments in israel over here. i would not dare to speculate what the meaning of something that happened in iran -- you probably understand iran better

than i. >> well, you know what, you spend a lot of time thinking about it, though. it's the focus of your trip here. i'm going to play something that you said at a speech here about iran's capability and its intentions. >> i don't think that the irans, even if they've got a bomb, they're going to drop it on some neighbor, they fully understand what follows, they're radicals, but not totally -- they have quite sophisticated decision making pros and they understand realities. >> so you said, they're radical but not crazy. right? >> yeah. >> so you don't think even if they did have a weapon, they would drop it on israel? >> you took a much sentence from a much longer -- probably too long to be repeated here. >> so? >> iran is clearly heading toward a nuclear military

capability. they are trying to deceit and defy the whole world. trying to deter the whole world from responding to this. they have two examples in mind. one is pakistan, which is similar, and the other is north korea. and in those two cases, they were successful, against sanctions and whatever. so basically, a manner of the iaa, the new head of the iaa made quite courageous statement by finally calling a spade a spade and told the world that people who are preparing implosion experiments with heavy metals, they are bringing or they are producing warheads for -- of nuclear weapons for ground-to-ground missiles that could reach the whole region, not just israel. so we think that it's a major

challenge to the whole world. >> so how do you address how to -- you just did say there that they're not crazy enough to drop it on israel. >> that doesn't mean it's not damaging for the whole world. i can hardly think of any conceivable [ inaudible ] if iran turns nuclear. it will end any kind of nonproliferation regime. soldier will turn nuclear in a few months. >> but will it also be a problem for israel? because you clearly have a far superior conventional capability in that region. if, as you say, you fear iran develops a nuclear weapon, does that mean that you will lose your conventional deterrence? >> i don't think that we lose it. we are the strongest country 1,000 miles around -- >> or that it won't -- >> but i think that there will

be an intensive nuke low a waste, probably turkey, probably egypt will join the countdown towards the generation. vision of a nuclear device, handing its way into the hands of terrorist group. even if it takes half a generation. we are going to leave in a place where an iran will intimidate neighbors and tailor to all the jihad. >> this is a very apocalyptic vision that you're painting right now. >> not apocalyptic. >> so how? how? obviously there's been much, much speculation, because israel never puts this to sleep, that you're going to go and bomb its facilities at some point. are you going to do that? >> i think that the time is still a time for sanctions, for diplomacy sanctions. sanctions should be effective. it's not about our definition, whether crippling or paralyzing or deadly. it should be effective and bring

them to a point where they decide not to continue with their nuclear effort. i believe and hope that this will be the case. i think that their administration should deserve credit to president obama with all the other issues on his agenda, a heavy table both domestically, but both strategically in the world. they find the energy, the attention to move. that's important now. >> let's just quickly play something that president obama did say about the possibility of sanctions. >> they have made their choice so far, although the door is still open. and what we are going to be working on over the next several weeks is developing a significant regime of sanctions that will indicate to them how isolated they are from the international community as a whole. we are confident right now that the international community is unified around iran's misbehavior in this area.

how china operates at the security council, as we pursue sanctions is something that we're going to have to see. >> so you've just said that you believe sanctions and the pursuit of that is the correct thing right now. but you also have said that you think the american chances of enlisting the chinese is not great. >> it's kind of an observation. censures will not be really effective -- >> so how do you -- how will they be effective if you don't think they're going to get the chinese on board? >> first of all, i think a lot of effort is made by that administration to make them understand -- well, also, israel is a tiny place, but we sent two

of our leading experts there. and the former chief of staff, who is now a minister to try to present to them the effects. >> do you and the united states agree on the types of sanctions to be put on iran? >> i think that we both agree it should be effective. >> yes, but what does that mean? the types? they're talking about the revolutionary guard. >> there are many, many, many types. it should start with financial transaction, with certain insurance issues, with certain limitations of how they can deal with this and so on. we feel we should not stop until it becomes effective. and we will see, it won't take years to see whether it works or not. and i believe and hope that it can work, but we should be open enough. >> prime minister netanyahu has called for an energy embargo on iran? >> i don't think it's worth having an open conversation in front of this camera.

it's clear it should be effective, limited in time, and i think, we think, with a comment to all players not to remove any option from the player and we leave by what we commit to others. >> okay. so we're going to pursue those options and how much time those sanctions should take and we'll be back with more in just a moment. who's not answering. announcer: there's a better way. intuit quickbooks online p9 organizes your business in one place, and helps you stay on top of your business anytime, anywhere. get a 30-day free trial at intuit.com.

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>> translator: today the most important issue in the world is the issue of palestine. if there is a conflict going on in iraq, we believe that the conflict has been instigated by the zionists. if there's a conflict in afghanistan, the war has been provoked by the zionist. >> joining me again, israeli defense minister, ehud barak. so you just heard the iranian president, mahmoud ahmadinejad, basically blaming everything on you, on israel. but let me ask you this, the u.s. national security adviser, jim jones, has said that the increased pressure on iran is likely to lead to an attack on israel. do you agree with that -- not necessarily by iran.

>> i understand the idea. i don't think that we are yet there. yeah, he probably intended probably hezbollah or someone else will attack us. in fact, ahmadinejad, this guy, he was two days ago in damascus, probably negotiating what should follow. he talked about a new middle east with no zionist and no -- israel and new israel. and this guy, you know, happened to develop not a new avatar-like long bows, but a nuclear weapon. so we have to take this situation seriously. i'm not sure whether we are going to face a preemptive attack by the hezbollah, but anyhow, we are not interested in conflict in the north or in the east. but if it is imposed upon us, we know how to respond.

>> well, you say that, but then, of course, there's the gallstone effect. in other words, would you do what you did to hezbollah in 2006? all-out attacks? or are you limited now? >> probably even more intensive. because in 2006, we were limited from hitting lebanon infrastructure. in lebanon, we see something totally abnormal. and the u.n. has a militia. the militia happen to have maybe members of parliament, even veto power within the cabinet. and it still works under oldest form, iran and equipped syria and iran, that's crazy -- >> so you would do that again? >> resolution 1701, we say loud and clear, we are not interested in a conflict.

we will not initiate one. but if we would be attacked, namely our civilian population, because this militia happened to have more than 40,000 rockets on israel, we will not run or chase any individual hezbollah fighter, we will hit lebanon and whatever is under the responsibility of lebanon's government. the lebanese government has to make sure and i believe the international community has to make sure that 1701 is followed and that -- >> that's the u.n. security council resolution? >> -- put handcuffs on the hands of hezbollah or dismantle them. >> let me ask you again about iran and the constantly raised military option that you all say every option is still on the table. your former chief of the idf, general halute says israel lacks the military means for a preemptive strikes against iran's nuclear facilities. that israel should not be the flagbearer for the entire western world. and he said, not just some

passerby. i've had information that gives me levels of information that the general public does not have. in other words, you can't do it alone. >> i respect him very much so, and i clearly said that at this stage, we believe it's still the time for sanctions, but i repeat my accommodation, to others as well as to everyone else, not t everyone else, not to remove any option from the table. i hope sanctions and any other means will work, but we have to wait and see. >> again, i've heard that the iranian facilities are hardened, they're dispersed, the united states has certainly up until now said that they would not necessarily help you, and the very least, you probably wouldn't be able to fly over iraq. israel cannot do it on its own, can it? >> i don't think that it makes sense, the situation. we are facing to discuss it in

the open and try to really go into details of this. i keep saying what i've told you. i think the time is still for diplomacy. and tough sanctions might change it. and we have to focus on what is on the table, not on speculating on further steps that might be needed. >> you said tough sanctions should be put in place for a period of time. how long? >> i cannot put it by a certain date, but i can say, it's a matter of we should see whether it works or not within a month, probably more than a few months, but not years. next, we'll ask ehud barak why on earth israel took a provocative step over religious sites on the west bank this week. doesn't it just make peace less likely? it can happen anytime,

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nothing has made my job of trying to find arab and palestinian partners for israel more difficult than being greeted by a new settlement

every time i arrive. >> that was nearly 20 years ago and the settlement issue continues to cause a long shadow over arab/israeli peace talks. israel's defense minister, ehud barak, joins me again. this issue is still a major, major issue. and some very, very respected people have said that the two-state solution ma no longer be possible. and that is because of the increasing number of settlements and the inability of the israeli government to withdraw them, let alone hold them. >> no, no, i think that's correct. we made recently probably the unprecedented step for freezing it for ten months any new settlement building, and it's clear the two-state solution is the only solution. it's not just a favor we are doing to the palestinians, it's compelling for israel as well. but having said that, the issue

of settlement is used also as an excuse. because if we coerce these and solve the whole issue, it would be only part of implementation. we negotiated with omert when the pace of building was twice the building one. arafat, his predecessor, when the pace of settlement building was four times -- it's not the real reason. >> let me ask you about this. you know president obama started out by saying total freeze on settlements before talks. now they've amended that position. >> they've modified it for good reason because it's impracticalical. we're an open society. if a private contractor strikes a contract with someone, an individual, if they want to build and we try to stop them, we will be ordered by the supreme court to stop the -- >> but as you know, it is a requirement of all the peace maps and road maps and all the rest.

but i want to ask you about a comment you made recently at a conference. and this is what you said. "as long as in this territory west of the jordan river there is only one political entity called israel, it is going to be either non-jewish or non-democratic. if this bloc of millions of palestinians cannot vote, that will be an apartheid state." that's what you said. >> i said the obviously basically -- >> but that's very -- >> it's not about the word "apartheid." basically, what i said, there is a compelling imperative for us to engage from the palestinians. i said, if 11 million people do -- if the blocs of millions do, it's a non-jewish state. >> and you used the word "apartheid state." do you stand by that? >> i said it.

it's not secretive. in fact, i'm saying it in different words for 20 years now since the time i was in -- >> but why don't you then enact bolder steps -- >> i don't think that we are going to be there. i don't see -- >> but if it's such a huge challenge, why don't you enact bolder steps? >> let me tell you, i'm not afraid of any bolder steps. i say that in order to warn ourselves that we might enter into a slippery slope towards either non-jewish or non-democratic state. neither is our dream. so we have to take steps to change it. that is why i am in this government. this government, in spite of being heavily kind of biased to the right, agreed for the two-state solution, agreed to accept all previous agreements signed by israel government, agreed to accept the idea of the

road map and basically -- >> but right now -- >> netanyahu talking about a palestinian state with the national anthem and national flag, living side by side. this is our vision. >> but right now, it is your vision, it's many other people's vision. it's not happening. it's stalled still. the palestinian leader says that he won't come back to talks unless there is a halt to settlement. now, u.s. secretary of state hillary clinton has called for an immediate resumption of the talks. is it going to happen? >> i hope it will be resumed. probably at the beginning of talks. i think all parties should stop speculating. i've heard a lot of speculation, that israel cannot deliver, is too weak. and i've heard a lot of speculation that netanyahu is

not there, does not believe. i say the proof of the pudding is in the eating. >> okay. >> stop speculating, bring them together to one room and start negotiation. either directly or through authorized representatives. >> you've been saying this for a long time. i want to play something that i asked you nearly ten years ago. >> do you really think there is room to restart the peace negotiations? >> yeah. there will always be room. we will never lose hope of peace. the palestinian people is going to be our neighbor forever. we will make peace with them. >> i mean, that was ten years ago. >> no justice, you get younger, i get older, clearly from words we see here. >> but still, it was ten years ago and nothing has happened. words have changed, there have been different ideas put out there, but -- >> no living person in israel was ready to go further than i did and risk his whole political career or the premiere in order to try to reach it. we put on the table an offer during the clinton

administration, your husband was in the vicinity. and i kept saying it was rejected by arafat, but i keep saying if it takes five months, five years or 15 years, when an agreement will be reached, it will be the result of leaders taking a decision and it will be a glass magnifier will be needed to see the difference from what we put on the table at camp david. >> we'll be right back. we've got to take a break. we'll be right back. next, secret missions. once ehud barak went on one disguised as a woman. we'll ask him about what many suspect was another of israel's secret missions in dubai last month. i have astigmatism. so my old contact lenses would sometimes move out of place and blur my vision. my eye doctor said there's great news for people with astigmatism. acuvue oasys for astigmatism. they work with the way my eyes move and blink,

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i want to give you your top stories now. the death toll soars one day after chile's massive 8.8 earthquake. the government now says more than 700 people have died. plus more than 900 aftershocks. 09 aftershocks continue to rattle the country. and the tsunami warnings trigger bid the quake has been canceled for the entire pacific basin. more on that coming up at the top of the hour. >> in europe at least 53 people have been killed in violent storms. most of the victims were in western france. at least a million people are now without power in the country's prime minister is calling eight national catastrophe. several deaths also have been reported in spain, u.k., port senate, germany. unemployment benefits run out tomorrow. more than a million people may be getting checks in march. may not be getting those checks. but it is in the second ranking republican leader says he expects gop lawmakers will vote to extend the benefits this week. we shall see. more on your top stories at the top of the hour. i'm don lemon.

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welcome back. our guest, ehud barak, is no stranger to the secretive world of special operations. he's famous for foiling an airplane hijacking by disguising himself as a mechanic, and for once dressing up as a woman during an undercover mission to kill palestinians. now there's another secret operation in the news. the assassination of a top hamas commander in dubai and many are blaming that on israel.

israeli defense minister ehud barak joins me again. is this another secret mossad operation? >> i have nothing to say about this event in dubai. but i want to correct you about the past. i never killed palestinians, per se. i killed terrorists who were directly responsible for the killing, indiscriminate killing of civilians. and i think that that's the kind of almost part of primary contract of the government with its citizens to protect them against indiscriminate killing of civilians. >> well, let me go back to this issue here. because, at first, when the reports came out, in israel, there was, you know, a certain amount of pride and glee. there were also words to the effect that israel had -- this

was the way to attack terrorism. and then things got a little bit dicey, because all these pictures came out, all the surveillance video, all the passports and the faked identities and the stolen identities, governments calling your ambassadors in to ask what on earth is going on since many of those people who stole those identities were israeli civilians. what is going on? >> christiane, you know me long enough to assume that when i tell you that i have nothing to say about this story, i have nothing to say and i will not say. >> would you deny it? >> i will not say anything. >> you believe, though, in targeted assassinations? israel -- >> look -- >> there's the famous one back in -- >> in the next interview, you can ask me about it. if i will answer this right now, i will implicitly answer your question. i say, i do not have anything to say about this. >> okay. but then how does it affect israel's standing in the world, for instance? i mean, this is all giving you a credibility problem in terms of public relations. you are on a major public

relations offensive after the gullstone report, after this as well, around the world, because people are saying, hang on, what is israel doing in these circumstances? >> i will not say about that story. but you mentioned goldstone. i would like to say something about goldstone. after seven years of suffering, terrorizing our civilian population, israel had the right and the duty to respond. and goldstone report is biased, distorted, totally unexplainable in my judgment. and it even encourages, somehow, terror. because it gives -- >> his report encourages that? >> yeah, of course. he drove moral between the perpetrators of terror and its victims and they delivered to hamas and hezbollah as well, are deliberately using civilian population as human shields. and we, while being attacked,

you know, i remember president obama still as a candidate, coming and showing so much empathy to the citizens, we just found ourselves in a situation where we have to act, and i can tell you, if it would have happened, if santiago would have been bombarded, you would have been already in tijuana and please look what will happen in the desert in next few months. >> can i just -- we're going to talk about the goldstone report in a second. but first i want to go back to this issue of what happened in dubai. how are you going to respond to all these governments, the british, now australian, french, germany, all these governments who are calling your ambassadors in to ask you what on earth is going on and why all those

passports were found in your residences' possession? >> christiane, i do not have anything to be about this story. i will not change it if you come from another corner into the same issue. i will not say anything. >> were you surprised that the dubai government -- >> whatever -- >> were you surprised that the dubai government, the emirates government, launched such an exhaustive investigation? did you expect in your wildest dreams that these pictures, that these passports would come out? >> christiane -- >> no, i just want to know about the dubai investigation. what do you think about it? >> christiane, i told you, there's nothing to say about this story. and i will not say, when i nothing to say. so i think that it would be better for the benefit of the viewers if we change something.

>> we will keep trying. we're going to go to a break and when we come back from a break, we'll talk about the equally serious issue of what happened in gaza, the goldstone report, and israel now quite on the defensive after that goldstone report. that's when we come back. ♪

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the report didn't question the right of israel to take action, to stop the firing of rockets and mortars, we hold serious war crimes. but what prime minister netanyahu and israel has ignored is our criticisms of the way they fought the war. we didn't second-guess general, we didn't question the difficulty of fighting a war in a heavily built up civilian area. what we did was question the degree to which innocent

civilians were targeted. >> so that is richard goldstone, basically addressing the core issue of the report, and answering a little bit of what you talked about just before. they're not questioning your right to self-defense. they're questioning the number of civilians who were caught in this and not taking enough care to avoid civilians. what i want to ask you is this -- the central theme of the report is for your government, for you to conduct an independent inquiry. why won't you do it? >> no, we made our own -- we have our own hypotheses. we know for sure we did not order such an event. i can tell you more than this. this old goldstone was ready to accept a nomination not to check where the crimes were done, but to check or investigate the war crimes done by israel.

we don't accept such terms of -- >> no, he just said in that bite, mr. barak, that the killing of israel civilians were war crimes. but the question is why no independent inquiry? >> what's not independent? we are running the most independent hypotheses of any kind of a leading free world state. we provided to the u.n. recently, you know, there were two sides to it. >> but the u.n. has just given you another five months to come up with the inquiry -- >> no, i challenge you -- >> yes. >> i challenge you to compare the report that we brought to the ridiculous document the palestinian gave. >> but how can the military investigate itself? >> no, it's not investigate itself. >> but that's what's happened? >> no, that's not what happened. we have a system where, first of all, all the cases mentioned by

goldstone and many others are systemically investigated. it's investigated until the chief attorney -- >> attorney general. >> attorney general of the armed forces, he is not under the chief commander of the armed forces. he is nominated by us. he's under continued control of the attorney general of this state and the legal adviser to the government. it's totally independent. we compared it with the standard of what's going on here in america, in great britain, in the european countries. we are much ahead of them with the dependence of the investigations. >> would you agree that the goldstone report makes you think twice about how you will conduct a future war? >> i don't think so.

i think that -- >> will you do nothing different? >> no, we always try to improve ourselves, but we don't need the goldstone report for this. we started an investigation into the details of what happened long before goldstone wrote his report. we opened it. we asked both ngos, u.n., even palestinian individuals. we gave them address. they could call and complain. they came to the gates of gaza to interrogate them about a possible violations of law by our soldiers. we get soldiers or commander who will found responsibility of something, which was improper into legal processes within the armed forces. and that's what any other leading country in the west would have done. >> let me ask you, because, again, they're still requiring you to do more than you're

telling me you're doing, the notion of war crimes. as you know, there have been potential warrants out, people have called you a potential war criminal. they've potentially threatened to arrest foreign minister or former foreign minister tzipi liveny, had she gone to london. we asked her about that and thin there's a controversy going on in turkey right now. are you worried the you leave zrael and come to london that you could be arrested? >> well, yes.

i'm willing to speak up and sweek about a mill operation to explain why zrael left the gaza strip. >> for me this is not a question. the answer is yes. >> so -- >> surprisingly found one point where i agree. >> you also would agree to be arrested? >> i was in london when they announced the inquiry and they are going issue a kind of i didn't change an iota in my schedule. >> and yet, let's be frank. your government knows there is a

credibility problem right now. >> i don't want to mention some of the member states by name. i suggest to you to check the human rights standards. they tell you there is a need to have academic and then legal discussion of the way to fight effectively terrorists who are using civilian population as human shieldings. there is a need for modification of the not letting all of us

paralyze in our capacity to fight against terror. initiatives like that. >> we're going continue this right after a break. we have concluding thoughts, a few more questions including a debate about passover. we'll explain in a moment. 

> . >> now we have a final couple of questions. thanks again for joining us. where the prime minister is said that these are our heritage sides and it sparked days and days of clashes. why do that now? >> it went out of proportion. without any financial backing or anything else. this is really part of our heritage. it's also -- no intention to change the slight the arrangements. everything should be agreed with. and we basically -- >> the best of the offer? >> there is never in the history

there have been such a freedom of worship as it is now under the israeli control of this place. i don't see that we have any intention to change anything there but it's part of our heritage that's self-evident. >> and it could park religious war? >> i don't know so. i hope that, you know, all of the visited place. and the security -- security. >> let me ask you a final thought. you were with secretary of state hillary clinton this week and she spoke about the problems between israel and the pal sinnians and in the middle east.

>> from the processing plant to illinois in strael in time for passover. this one we might be able to solve. >> tid you have any idea? >> this is part of our heritage. i hope it will not ignite anything with the palestinians. let's bring the containers and have them in passover. >> on that note, thank you so much for joining us. >> thank you. >> and that is our report. thank you for joining us. during the week you can watch our program on cnn internation o al. for now, good-bye from new york.