effect on the way people feel about their day. when it's nice out, people are a lot happier, that's for sure. >> the nypd says your furlough time is up. "campbell brown" starts right now. hey, everybody. a brand-new snapshot of our country that explains a lot about the state of the nation right now. only 1 in 5 americans trust our government to do the right thing. 1 in 5. and tonight we'll try to find answers as to why so many americans according to some of these polls seem so dissatisfied. there were lots of examples of that today. gun rights activists took to the streets in virginia. protestors held what they called a restore the constitution rally. part of the call to action did encourage the people attending the virginia protest to openly carry their guns. tonight we'll also talk to the

founder of a group called oath keepers. they were protesting on the mall in d.c. on this issue. these rallies are taking place on patriots day, commemorating the start of the revolutionary war. but of course, april 19 has another more somber significance. 15 years ago today, timothy mcveigh blew up the murrah federal building in oklahoma city, killing 168 people. later in the show, we'll hear from some of the youngest survivors of that, and dig in to the shocking case of a pair of home grown extremists that some are cull calling the new mcveigh. that coming up as well. and then on another front, one big reason i think a lot of people disfr frutrust our gover wall street, the sec charges may have taken place at goldman sachs. we'll talk to one man who said he saw all of this coming. eliot spitzer once known as the sheriff of the wall street who later resigned amid something of a scandal.

he will be here as well. we've got a lot to go get to tonight. the big international story tonight continues to be worldwide disruption because of the huge cloud of volcanic ash hovering over europe. a handful of planes did take off today, and more flights are due to depart tomorrow. but after five days of travel chaos, the icelandic volcano that started it all is not done yet. take a look. >> reporter: european officials announced plans to partially reopen the skies to flights tomorrow. the volcano in iceland is still erupting. british airways, luftansa and other airlines sent up test flights without incident. they believe it's safe to fly. >> europe will be broken into three zones, open skies, a cautious zone where some flights

will be permitted and a much smaller no-fly zone than we've seen in recent days. it comes after furious delays that the blanket shut doudown wn overreact. >> the airlines say they're losing $200 million every day they're grounded. for eruptions from iceland to the eruption on wall street. questions about the timing of the sec's lawsuit against goldman sachs. at least one top republican is questioning whether the democrats are using the lawsuit to push passage of their sweeping financial reform bill. >> democrats seized on the government's new fraud suit as one more reason to pass their financial reform package now. >> this comes down so a basic question -- whose side are you on? >> the mortgage product was put together by john paulson, who

was allegedly looking to profit when that product then failed. >> the president will travel to new york city thursday to pitch financial reform in the shadow of wall. but today, the white house spokesman denied the government's fraud case against financial giant goldman sachs with time to provide political advantage. >> the sec is by law an dependent agency. it does not coordinate with the white house. >> goldman stock fell nearly 13% friday on the news the suit, but gained 1.6% today. our number one political story, the state of relations between the obama administration and israel. today, israeli defense minister ehud barack growned ail nation with the u.s. but prime minister benjamin netanyahu seemed to down play any tension. listen.

who's to blame? >> i think any family with any relationship, relationship of allies, you have ups and down, you have disagreements. but i think this relationship between the united states of america and the people of israel is rock solid. >> you met with the president on march 23. an extraordinary visit to the white house, and no public picture. apparently kept you waiting in the roosevelt room. >> i don't know how the meeting was perceived, but i don't think there was any such intention on the part of the president. i think we have outstanding issues and we're trying to resolve them in the best way that we can. >> netanyahu also said that israel wants to resume peace talks right away. and the story getting a lot of buzz tonight, bush and clinton together again. but this time it was jenna bush interviewing former president bill clinton as a correspondent for "the today show." >> i'm sure this is a rarity,

for me, a bush interviewing a clinton. >> i was thinking if your family fed you questions i would be cooked. >> no way, they love you. in fact, they joke that you're my grandfath my grandfather's stepson because he talks about you more than anybody else in the family. >> but your grandmother always says every family has one, a black sheep. >> the president, or the former president also talked about his daughter chelsea's upcoming wedding say heavyweight has gotten involved in some of the planning. that bring us tonight to "the punch line." wanda sykes thinks there's something funny about the president's plan for a mission to mars. >> president obama, you know, he must no something we don't, you know. because it can't just a coincidence that the same week volcanoes were erupting, he started saying, nasa should start planning a trip to mars.

come on. i'm keeping an eye on the white house, because the second i see michelle packing up her bowflex, i'm heading for the hills. >> wanda sykes, everybody. that's your "matchup" tonight. all the questions about goldman sachs and the political fight to push through wall street reform in congress. coming up, former new york governor elliott spitzer. he has faced down the wall street titans before, and says none of this is a coincidence, by the way. ♪ [ male announcer ] designed to function the way you function. the lexus rx. ♪ at your lexus dealer. i switched to a complete multivitamin with more. only one a day men's 50+ advantage... has gingko for memp$y and concentration. plus support for heart health. ( crowd roars ) that's a great call.

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the white house today denied having anything to do with the timing of the civil fraud case against wall street powerhouse gold man sachs. some republicans complain the democrats are trying to politically exploit the crisis fir for their overhaul plan in congress. take a listen. >> the sec is by law an independent agency. what it does, it does not coordinate with the white house, and we received no advanced notice of any enforcement action. >> president obama is going to wall street thursday to push the plan that would tighten the reins on banks, including limiting predator lending and making banks hold on to a certain percentage of the loans they make.

former new york governor eliot spitzer said today the suit against goldman is no coincidence. something he might not a little bit about. spitzer very aggressively went after wall street and won an historic $1.4 billion settlement from ten different financial firms, including goldman sachs. we's with us to talk about all of this. >> welcome to you. let me just ask you to start by explaining to viewers what it is goldman allegedly did in the simplest terms. >> pretend i'm goldman sachs and i teeming you a very complicated financials instrument and i pretend it's a good investment. what i don't tell you is that somebody else chose the elements of that instruments, put it together and the person who chose it wants it to fail. i didn't tell you that. i didn't tell you there is an ulterior motive underlying the construction of this. you're depending on me for my sound judgment. in fact, somebody else's judgment made the fundamental determination, and his judgment was -- >> and that's john paulson.

a very successful hedge fund guy. >> who made a huge sum of money betting against sub prime debt. there's nothing alleged to be wrong with him participating that way. the failure is goldman not explaining to you -- >> so i trust you and you're misleading me. >> a failure to disclose a material fact. he made the choice, not me. >> this made a little bit of news today. you said earlier you thought the timing of this coming out this week was a little bit suspicious. given that the administration is trying to get their financial regulatory bill through, it's a little bit staaled right now. and suddenly -- >> right, here we go. >> i didn't say suspicious. >> okay, i got your words right there. there are no coincidences. >> i didn't say suspicious. i think what's happening -- and this is legitimate. the sec is saying we need to make cases that will both enforce the law, and tell the public we're enforcing the law, and participate in the public discourse. this is a hugely important case. now, they may win, they may

lose. the materiality, to speak like a lawyer for a moment, the materiality of that failed item that they did not disclose is something the courts will fight about. goldman has now been cast in a very negative light, not just because of this case but other reasons we can talk about. i think the sec did a right thing in making this case now, saying to the public, here's a way of acting that we believe was improper. >> so you're not making any sort of accusations that the white house was in cahoots with the sec or anything? some people are going to leap to that conclusion. >> just so it's clear. i think the sec understood we've got to make cases that will make us a participant in this debate and will tell the public we're enforcing the law vigorously. that's why they did it now. they knew they needed to do it twhn window of opportunity and they did it. >> okay, so goldman's defense here in the most basic sense is buyer beware. these investments are inherently risky. you should know that going in.

>> their defense is the european bank is incredibly sophisticateded. it doesn't matter to you if i made the decision or somebody is standing in the corner. don't pretend to us that's a material fact. only now in retrospect does it appear material because you lost a lot of money. the problem for goldman is that most materiality decisions are made after the fact. when somebody who lost money claims that something wasn't disclosed to them, in this case, the fact that john paulson made these decisions. john paulson, as you already said, he's somebody who bet against the sub prime parkt in a big way. and you're saying to me, hey, why didn't you tell me that? i think that goldman in the fullness of time will lose that issue before a jury or a judge. they will drag it out for a long time and they might want to settle it two or three years from now. right now that i shall greatest risk is reputational. people are looking at them saying what are you doing? what are do you stand for? can we trust you?

we gave you hundreds of billions of dollars. people are saying what purpose do you serve to help our economy? and it's good question. >> a fair question. let me jump forward a little bit here. because -- answer this for me. the financial regulatory reform bill, in its current form, is there anything in it that would have prevented this? >> look, i don't think so. i know senator dodd says there is. i don't see what would have prevented goldman from marketing this product without disclosing who was involved along the way in taking the component parts. i don't think there is. >> if the problem here was just a bad actor, you can't legislate against people doing bad things. >> there's only so far you can go through regulation to stop outright fraud. fraud is going to be committed by bad people in the market, who will lie and deceive, whatever the laws may be. what ch is why you need institutions to have a certain ethic about the way they do business. it all comes down to really

boring fiduciary duty. was it you purchasing this instrument. john paulson paying them a fee? aca, another party involved. that confusion is at the center of this. financial institutions are doing so much for so many different people. they're too complicated, too complex and there's no clarity about who they owe that duty to. >> let me ask you this, as a politician, a former politician, at least, you mentioned chairman chris dodd, banking committee chairman saying today -- and here are his exact words -- that failure to enact his financial overhaul bill would leave the american public vulnerable to shenanigans in goldman sachs and other large firm? if you google this -- politico did story on this. what pops up? barackobama.com. democrats are using this to raise money.

does it bother you they're using this to make political hay -- >> everything you do is going to be for political purposes. i spent years pursuing wall street, taking some real hits for people who disagreed with us. people always imputed you would tier carry motives. you just have to disregard that. i'm not worried about the motives. people will impute them to everything you do. i think the issue now is how do we get the best bill that does the most to restore capitalism as we need it to survive. what we had before was some crazy notion of libertarianism swirling through the halls with alan greenspan and even bob ruben and certainly chris cox, the prior chair of the sec, people who didn't understand where the rules needed to be enforced. i'm afraid that tim geithner and larry summers also. what we need are rules that are clear that restore capitalism. >> before we take a break, given the connections, as you said,

that they have to wall street, that the republicans have to wall street, to the average person, to me with no -- i mean, how do you -- how do any of us have faith that our members of congress in washington are going to come up with a big that addresses these issues? >> well, what you need is to read and think and read things such as "the big short." such as simon's johnson "the 13 bankers." writ wri writers who articulate -- paul volcker said in the volcker rules, we should take apart these multipurpose investment banks and dis aggregaaggregate power psh. >> but the bill doesn't do that. >> no, it doesn't. is it progress? yes. does it answer the problem? no. >> should they blow it up and start over? you know this stuff as well as anybody. >> do they need to go further

than they have? absolutely. do they need -- the biggest issue rj four letters, tbtf -- too big to fail. they have explicit guarantees behind them so they can borrow. when they lose money it's on our shoulders. that asymmetry creates a desire for risk that is dangerous. that got us here in the first place. this bill does not go anywhere close to where it should go in terms of eliminating that asymmetry and this is where we should be looking at this. >> and you're a democrat. coming up, what may be next for eliot spitzer along with other things. as well as the question everyone is asking, will he run again?

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we are back now with former new york governor eliot spitzer. most people know you had quite a reputation for going after wall street. none of this would have happened if you had still been attorney general. >> i don't believe that. this stuff was sort of emerging, and it was the crest of a wave

part of 30 years of deregulation and bad judgment on wall street. we tried to look at sub prime debt and go after it. we were set down by the sec and occ and poerps this was during the presidency of president bush. we had to litigate that in the supreme court and win, but it was too late. put all that aside, this stuff was convergence of so many forces. >> you saw a lot of this coming. >> it was a structure and an industry where so many pieces were coming together that created conflicts and tensions, the precisely sort of cases going to emerge. nobody knew where the loyalty was supposed to go. they claimed it was synergistic and bad things were going to happen and the leverage ratios increased to astronomical levels. people believed their own rhetor rhetoric. it was doomed to collapse.

>> i'm going to shift gears here. as a governor, you destroyed your own career. people look at you, your enormous gifts and flaws. you are going to have to sort of go through all of this as the book is released. why are you sitting here with me. why aren't you hiding in a closet somewhere? to the extent i'm asked, can i come on your show if i'm asked? >> no, no, but you can certainly not have to address the stuff over and over again by laying low for a while. >> you're absolutely right. and i did. but when the financial crisis came, people asked my views.

people can read my columns or not based on their views. i tried to contribute in a small way to the thinking about where we should go. based on the experiences that i had, i tried to contribute. the down side is of course what i have to go through. are you seriously considering a run for public office? >> what i have said is that sthst not something i'm thinking of now. building a career that will make me feel challenged and engaged. that's what i'm doing. >> so you're not ruling it out. sit in your blood? >> i like to think of it at the age of 50 i'm not so young i rule anything out.

>> you always say look, i have no idea where i would go down the road. what i want to do is contribute. there are many different things to do. i love, i write. these are things that i love. >> appreciate you being here. >> thank you so much. coming up, today is known in some parts of the country as patriots day. tonight, backers of gun rights sending a strong warning to washington. but are some of them ready to go beyond civil discourse? we're going to talk to an expert on extremist groups when we come back. it can happen anytime,

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today is april 19, which marks a variety of significant milestones. supporters of gun rights used this anniversary that marks the start of the revolutionary war to send their own anti-establishment message. they intend to protect the second amendment and their right to bear arms at all costs. and there were two very distinctly different pro gun rallies held today. one in virginia where protesters were openly and legally carrying guns. the only weapon they had in the nation's capital -- their words. take a listen.

>> i'm not happy with the way the government is going right now. our second amendment rights are in trouble. >> i'm here because i'm a supporter of our second amendment rights. i thought it was important to take the time. >> we belief the second amendment is the government's enforcement of a god-given right to defend ourselves. we need to let the politicians here in washington know that we are very, very -- feel very strong about keeping that right. . >> restrictive firearm laws, in some restricted areas like washington, d.c., for example, for all practical intents and

purposes, couldn't own a firearm. >> is there a problem? >> yeah, up at the street. there are too many liberals thereupon that don't believe in the u.s. constitution. they don't believe in truth. they never let the truth get in the way of what they want. >> so we had planned bring you a debate tonight. we invited the head of the oath keepers. he canceled moments ago after watching cnn today, he said he did not believe our coverage was fair and so he was not going to appear on the program. with me now, we have an expert on the growing militia movements across the country. joining us solo instead. robert, apologize that you're not getting the debate, but i'll do my best to play devil's advocate. the first thing i want to ask you to get your take on is where this fervor is coming from do you think? what is it really about? because it's not as though gun rights is a huge issue at the

moment. there are no bills being debated, per say. democrat, republican, nobody is pushing any sort of gun control bill at the moment. what is this about? >> i think there's an intersection of a lot of different issues here. i think the gun rights movement has very much coming out of a libertarian politics in which concerns of big government, concerns over government expanding its powers, and hence eroding civil society. so to the extent you have an administration that has just really expanded the welfare state in a pretty significant way with the health care reform bill, i think in some ways that's standing in for the issue of gun control in a lot of people's minds. >> so it's really hardly even about guns. it is striking, though, that that, you know, that one rally in virginia, demonstrators were carrying guns openly, which is legal there.

but very much an in-your-face demonstration. >> there are a couple other t n things going on there as well, they're trying to bring back an open era in american politics where guns with a normative part of the practice of politics. >> if you look at this country's history in the late 18th century and early 19th century, a lot of politics involved. guns were a part of physical festivity. i think they're trying to bring that back. >> let me ask you to look at the larger trend. it does appear we are seeing a rise in right wing extremism recently. there are a number of studies that have looked at this. the department of homeland security says it's perhaps the economy or the president's race. what do you see as driving recruitment right now beyond just sort of the generic more --

or not generic, but more general libertarian view? >> well, i think twoef really be careful to distinguish what's going on on the right end of the american politics right now. there's absolutely correct that there's a lot of activity in what i would call the christian patriot public sphere, to say that part of the political spectrum that casts out beyond the mainstream. there's lots of political organizing going on. there's lots of groups that are emerging or old groups that are getting stronger again. one of the new groups is the oath keepers. one of the older groups apparently picking up steam again is the john birch society which has been around far long time but apparently is enjoying a resurgence. i don't see it as politically threatened. >> you don't? that was my question. this is the anniversary of the, you know, bombing in oklahoma

city. so that has a lot of people thinking about this. does that worry you? >> well, i mean, i guess there are things to be concerned about, but i think we have to pay attention to the right things. we have had a tendency in the last ten years to be really very concerned about insurging violence. sometimes what we forget is that state-sponsored violence can be much more devastating. it seems to me that we do have some degree of revival in the militia movement, which emerged in the 1990s and then really went dormant during the bush administration. we do see some increase in the number of militia group, but nothing close to what was happening in the 1990s. so there again, although there are groups like the southern poverty law center that are ringing the bells of warning, i think they're exaggerating the actual degree of what's happening. >> robert churchill, we really appreciate your time.

our apologies to our viewers and you as well that our other guest didn't show up. many thanks. we are going to take a look at whether there is a possibility of home grown terrorists, like timothy mcveigh waiting in the wings. a closer look when we come back. [ engine revving ]

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fellow workers and their children, took the lives of 168 people. the killer, timothy mcveigh was later executed for his crime. but what about today's mcveighs? this year, two other men fuelled by anger for the u.s. government admitted they plotted to kill black children and assassinate barack obama when he was president-elect. here now, cnn's jeffrey toobin. >> it was the height of the historical presidential campaign of barack obama. 20-year-old daniel cower wait a minute in rural tennessee. 18-year-old paul schlesin. >> they were driving a car with

a giant swastika. honk if you love hitler. >> reporter: but it wasn't just talk. federal authorities detailed how they amassed a large cache of weapons, sawed off shotgun, rifle, handguns, swords and nooifs. according to investigators, they had an audacious and chilling plan to use those weapons. >> they planned to burglarize a gun shop in tennessee they had already identified and get more weapons and ammunition. then what they wanted to do was take those guns and go to a school and kill 88 black children. >> 88 children. the numb intera common knneo na reference to the eighth letter of the alphabet. h.h., heil hitler. >> then their grandiose plot was to go on and try to assassinate

president-elect obama. so they were extremely dangerous. i think they clearly could have gotten into a school and killed a lot of children. >> reporter: but before the skin heads moved into action, a team of agents arrested them. paul schlesleman's father mike talked to reports right after his son's arrest. >> he was very sorry they did all this. he said man, i was stupid. never going to do anything like that again. >> earlier this year, the skinheads pleaded guilty in federal court to conspiracy and threatening to inflict bodily harm of on a presidential candidate. schlessleman was sentenced to prison. cavanaugh says they have the potential of causing destruction

along the lines of timothy mcveigh. the case comes amid a spate of incidents that have authorities concerned. one involving the michigan members called the h ee eed the joe stack who crashed his plane into the irs building. >> you can hate, but you can not hurt. and you can not plot to hurt or conspire to hurt. be it a militia in the woods, plotting to overthrow the government, you can't do that. you can't plot the overthrow of the united states. you can't plot attacks on federal law enforcement officers or police officers. you can't plant bombs, you can't conspire to murder people. >> reporter: there's been a surge recently of anti-government hatred.

>> i think we're in a very worrying moment right now. i think it is really quite similar in the period in early '95 leading up to the oklahoma city bombing. the reality, though, is i think actually the movement or the anger out there right there is both broader and deeper than it was in 1995. that i think is really scary. >> the trials of the eight hutare militia members are yet to begin. they pleaded not guilty to conspiracy charges. >> so talk to me about the law. when can free speech cross the sflien. >> that's always a subject of controversy. but when you have weapon, when you have specific targets and you have intentions to use those weapons against specific targets, then it's pretty clear it's criminal. >> i have to ask you about something president clinton said when he was asked about his wife as a potential nominee to the

supreme court. >> she would be great at it. at one point she would have been interested in it. but she's like me. we're doers. we like to be out there maybing changes, seeing things happen. she would ask the president to appoint someone 10, 15 years younger. >> what do you think about that? >> when he announced the nomination of ruth bader ginsberg, she was 60 years old. i think that's the last 60-year-old we would see. >> age, women. don't go there. just generally. i'm kidding about that. jeff toobin, thank you. fascinating piece. appreciate it. >> and next a bittersweet day for the vatican. the pope on his fifth anniversary as head of the roman kacatholic church after gettingn

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stud is a day of sell bralgs at the vatican, marking five years since den bikt xvi became

pope. but the priest sex abuse scandal continues to follow the pope wherever he goes, including an emotional trip to malta over the weekend. he expressed shame and sorrow directly to some of the abuse victims. >> he listened to us. he told me, i'm very proud and i pray for you to have the courage to tell your story. >> it was fantastic, really fantastic. we were waiting for it. >> the pope cried? >> yes. he had tears in his eyes. >> and joining us right now is father jim martin, who was a jesuit priest, culture editor and the author of the jesuit guide to almost everything." it's very good to have you here in person, finally, father martin. this is clearly an emotional meeting. the pope himself tearing up, as we heard people say. how important was this?

>> when you have head of the catholic church coming to you and saying i apologize. at least it's touching them on an emotional level and there's recognition that he ear being heard. >> but there are still going to be critics that say this smells like a p.r. move and more needs to be done from him specifically to make it feel more than a gesture. what -- >> well, yeah, it's one thing. in philosophy, they say it's necessary but not sufficient. it's not the whole thing. but i think certainly apologizing in a meeting is one thing he has to do. the rest of the vatican also needs to look at zero tolerance. they just put on the website all their regulations and procedures for confronting sex abuse. it's not the only thing the pope needs to do, but it's an important step. >> let me read some of that. after yesterday's meeting, the

vatican did release a statement saying they will continue to do all they can to bring to justice those responsible for abuse and to implement effective measures to safeguard young people in the future. but i guess specifically, though, just from your perspective, what would you concrete wise like to see changed? >> well, i would like to see them adopt what the u.s. bishops adopted in 2002, zero tolerance for abusers, safe practices, being placed in all church institutions. very strict requirements in terms of who gets into the priesthood. i would like to see the church frankly become a leader in protecting children and young people. i think there's an opportunity for the church to really take the lead and go forward and even seek out victims. rather than waiting for them to come, you know, with their sad stories, really look for them to try to get their stories. we have to be pro-active.

>> and coming up, healing scars of oklahoma city, one child at a time. you're going to hear firsthand from two of the fortunate few who survived. you're the colon lady! diarrhea, constipation, gas, bloating. that's me! can i tell you what a difference phillips' colon health has made? it's the probiotics. the good bacteria. that gets your colon back in balance. i'm good to go! phillips' colon health. ♪ [ male a announcer ] try fixodt with the time-released formula.

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"larry king live" starting in just a few minutes. larry, what do you have tonight? >> campbell, we've got ryan and simon and ellen and randy and krar cara all with us.

they'll be answering my question, some of yours. the idol crew on "larry king live" next. >> big show. all right, larry, see you in a few. when we come back, they were the youngest survivors of the oklahoma city attack. what they remember and what they have to say today. right after the break.

some of the most heart breaking images and indiring stories from the oklahoma city bombing involved its youngest victims. one of the 168 people killed in

the attack, 19 were children. somehow there were six children rescued from the ruins. they were bloodied, they were battered, but they did make it out alive. and don lemon sat down with two of the survivors. >> it is emotional to you at all when you walk through this building? what type of experience is it for you being in this building? and on these grounds? >> it's just really sad at times. but at the same time, i'm happy that i'm alive. >> where's your name? >> where's your name? >> do you ever wonder why you survived? >> yeah. a lot. i wonder. but i don't know, i guess i have something important to do. >> what would you say to timothy mcveigh if you could talk to

him. i would ask him why and what was going on in his head at the moment, and i would tell him that i forgive him for what he did even if he doesn't want me to forgive him. >> can you forgive? >> yeah. >> you can forgive? >> mm-hmm. >> do you remember september 11? >> yeah. >> and? >> that was hard. that was very hard. we had just been through that whole scenario about tragedy and loss, and then just seeing other people go through it, it was hard. >> when you hear about the guy flying the plane into the irs building and other acts of terror, what runs through your mind? >> what is the government doing to stop it? and then i guess we just have to

hope for the best and prepare for the worst. >> people talk about home grown terror. people talk about terror from overseas. is there a difference to you? >> terror is terror, no matter where it comes from. you know? i think it kind of hurts more when it comes from home because, you know, that's one of us doing all this. so it's just like, whoa. but, you know, it's the same, terror is terror. i really want people to understand that when you go through something like this, it doesn't just go away, like, the next day or the next year. it affects you for your whole life. >> and that's going to do it for us for now. you can follow me anytime on