tv Larry King Live CNN April 24, 2010 12:00am-1:00am EDT
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usually that comes in plastic. less worried about the blanket. the pillow, petri dish. tonight a sad night for all of >> tonight, a christian singer's shocking admission. she admits she is a lesbian, angering some of her devout followers. jennifer knapp reveals how a god-loving woman. ted haggard is here with us as well. can you be christian and gay? should anyone have to choose one or the other? next on "larry king live." >> larry: good evening.
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this will not be a dull show tonight. jennifer knapp is a grammy-nominated christian music artist. recently came out publicly as a lesbian revealing that she has been in a same-sex relationship for the past eight years. her new album "letting go" will be released in may. it's available for presale on itunes. we welcome jennifer knapp to "larry king live." why did you come out? >> well, go right for the jugular. as a history in the christian music industry, very well-known for my faith, i felt like it was one of the most important things that i could do to allow people who i knew might not agree with listening to an artist who has been known as a christian and yet deal with the fact that they were homosexual at the same time. there were a lot of rumors circulated around for about seven years. and while i wasn't actually here to kind of answer them, and it's
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starting to feel a little bit like a lie. >> larry: do you think you were living a lie? >> absolutely not. i've been quite open in my relationships that i've had in my private life. it's just on a public level they kind of needed some -- needed to be addressed i think. >> larry: you would be seen with your mate, et cetera? you weren't hiding somewhere? >> well, i was on another continent, so that made it rather convenient. >> larry: you were where? >> i was actually in australia for the last five years. >> larry: singing? >> no, just being an average joe. >> larry: why did you stop singing? >> oh, that's a long story. >> larry: shorten it. >> well, i'd done about three records. and i got fairly burnt out. i was doing about 150 shows a year for about three or four years. and i just didn't know why i was doing it anymore. i lost the joy of what i was doing. so i really decided i needed a break. >> larry: did you know early on you were gay? >> no, i wouldn't have put it that way. >> larry: when was there a realization? >> yeah, when i fell in love with a beautiful woman. that was a pretty good indicator. but i was -- at the time i was actually involved in sharing my faith in music. i was celibate for ten years.
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so i really kind of put my own personal desires out the window and kind of put all that to the side. it wasn't until i actually met someone that was really quite difficult for me to ignore anymore. >> larry: is that someone kind of in the same boat? >> i don't know. you'd have to speak to my partner about that. >> larry: did you ask if this was new to her too? >> sure. >> larry: you had a successful christian musical career. more than one million albums were sold. you won four gospel industry dub awards, were nominated for a grammy. let's take a look at your music. watch. ♪
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>> larry: do you still call yourself a christian artist? >> i still -- i am a person of faith. it's a long-debated term, the connection of those two terms. i am an artist. i very much as an artist often find myself reflecting my faith in my music, and will probably continue to do that. >> larry: usually we hear christian artist, most of the music is of that bent. >> well, there is a particular genre. >> larry: of course. >> there is a retail industry specifically designed for that. >> larry: in the store. >> it will be the christian back store. and that's a legitimate form of -- there a legitimate group of people that are actually participating within that
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industry. so it's not a small thing. >> larry: does what you do, do you think belie your faith since so many in the christian world regard homosexuality as a sin? >> well, not every christian denomination belies homosexuality. >> larry: but many do. >> i can't speak for the statistical analysis for it. but there are many denominations in the country. >> larry: a certain element. >> i would say that there is a certain portion of the evangelical community that definitely disagrees with homosexuality being in conjunction of anyone calling themselves a believer. that has been my experience within the evangelical community. however, i've also had a great deal of experience with many other denominations who openly accept the rich diversity of the types of believers that are within their community. and it's been a great hon for nor for me to be in participation with many of them. >> larry: no problem for you to be christian and gay. >> not with myself personally, no. >> larry: you don't feel that
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your bible speaks against it, or do you? >> well, i think there is plenty of evidence in my exploration of my faith through the sacred text of the holy bible that i have definitely recognized that we are somewhat at the -- the handicap of our own interpretations of a sacred text. let's take for example the original greek translation of which i am no academic scholar of. yet, you know, we all know that any time we read a book or we read any kind of word, that it becomes the interpretation of our life's experience, what we want to bring out of that. and so i mean, in the long run, i don't have the greatest problems with it because there are other -- i'm not the only person in the universe that has ever, you know, looked at a different interpretation. >> larry: we can read things into things.
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>> larry: >> it doesn't make make the truth any less the truth or love any less love. >> larry: what do you fans say? >> what do my fans say? >> larry: have you heard from people? >> i've had an overwhelming response in the last couple of weeks since this information has come out. >> larry: support mostly? >> it's been incredible. everywhere from -- you know, the typical internet kind of facebook, twitter, and the shows that we've been doing, it's been fantastic. >> larry: more with jennifer knapp, quite a story. the whole stowe show devoted to her tonight. don't go away. ♪ ♪ you know, when i grow up,
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♪ i kissed a girl and i liked it, the taste of her cherry chap stick ♪ ♪ i kissed a girl just to try it, i hope my boyfriend don't mind it ♪ ♪ it felt so wrong, it felt so right, don't mean -- ♪ >> larry: back with jennifer knapp, the grammy-nominated christian music artist who has in a sense come out. her new album "letting go" released in may, available for presale on itunes. we just played a clip of katy perry singing "i kissed a girl." katy used to be a christian singer and you manage her for a bit. >> i knew her as a young teenager when she was upand coming. >> larry: you say artists like katy perry and pink help you'd come to terms with music. how? >> it's funny with katy. i was living in sydney at the time and katy was doing her tour down in australia. and she looked great.
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i was really proud of her. i was really glad to see that she was having this success that she was. and i was just sitting there at home, just getting fat and lazy. i just had the fire burning in my belly, i was so jealous of seeing that, man, why am i not doing that. and a little time after that, pink came through and was doing her tour and her preparation. it was really hard to see something that i really loved and i was just kind of sitting in the background going oh, no, i can't do that. it's too hard. people won't like me. it really put a fire in my belly seeing people that i really admired. >> larry: how did you come out? what method did you choose? >> come out? >> larry: yeah, to announce it publicly. what did you do? >> well, i mean, in particular for the last couple of weeks -- >> larry: what did you say? did you talk to -- >> i did an interview with "christianity today" which is a very well respected evangelical publication, an interview with reuters, and an interview with
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"the advocate." i really thought it was important try and share three different walks of life that many christians find themselves in. just normal everyday people, people of faith, and people who are contending with their sexual orientation in society. >> larry: we've looked at a few christian websites. my crack staff has. here is some comments people have said. jennifer must choose between her sexual orientation and her christianity. she cannot have both. jennifer does not yet have the spiritual strength to deny her sexual orientation. to say this is okay, this is who i am is not acceptable in god's sight. these people are of course speaking for the lord. >> i haven't heard this before. >> larry: and you react how? >> well, those are several different hot button topics that
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are issues within dealing with homosexuality and people of faith. it's amazing to me that -- i mean it's literally stunning to me that because of in some eye or some way i might be a failing or a disappointment to you as an individual, that at some point that you have any control over my faith or my belief or what is inspires me to look towards the heavens and look toward god. so it's a very challenging situation to sit there and listen to someone make that kind of statement. >> larry: the implication is that you chose this, that you had a choice and said well, i'm gay, straight, gay, straight, i'll choose gay. >> there are many implications in it. >> larry: you don't think that, do you? do you think you chose this? >> i don't know why i am. i'm very comfortable with it. i recognize that love is a choice, very much. my sexuality, on the other hand, i'm not so certain about. it is what it is and i am what i
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am, you know. >> larry: you say you're the happiest you've ever been right now? >> i'm pretty darn happy. >> larry: so you're glad all of this happened? >> i'm not a regretful person. >> larry: but you feel better? >> i feel blessed to be able to fully be who i am. i love being able to be a musician. and part of that process for me as a musician is being open and honest and to not feel like i have to lie or to hide anything. i don't necessarily want to talk about it all the time. but i don't have to hide it either. >> larry: we're about to get a little lively. a pastor's take on jennifer and other christians who are gay is next. ♪ fit orthotic center. backed by foot care scientists, its foot mapping technology identifies the areas you put pressure on then recommends the right orthotic.
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♪ >> larry: jennifer knapp of course remains. we're joined now by pastor bob bostford, senior pastor horizon christian fellowship in san diego. thank you for coming, pastor. you wrote a blog about jennifer and want to read from it saying when a well-known spokesperson of the faith stubbornly chooses to remain in their life of sin, my heartbreaks for them. jennifer says she is finally happy she is in a committed loving eight-year relationship, and she is making music again. so why does your heartbreak for her? >> well, larry, it breaks for anyone who is caught in a sinful situation. and so i felt led to speak.
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we had a chance to meet a number of years ago briefly. i don't expect her to remember that. but i prayed for her for eight years now. >> larry: you feel sorry for her? >> i do. my heartbreaks for what the bible tells us about this particular choice and lifestyle. and, you know, i care as much for katy perry. i've never met katy perry. so i didn't think -- i didn't even think this would ever come about where i would be here. but i prayed for a lot of years having been told of jennifer's same-sex decision and relationship. and so i didn't say a word to anybody, kept it quiet, did not go public with anyone except the lord in my prayers for jennifer until it came public last week in the articles that she just mentioned to you that she gave. and then i said, well, hey, this is not right.
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>> larry: i understand that. katy perry has a male fiance. >> yeah. i think in the whole aspect, you know, of kind of being raised in the church, knowing what the bible says, coming out as you had said earlier with hip songs like "i kissed a girl" and pushing the envelope with all that is one thing. coming out and saying i, you know, am a homosexual and want to be accepted by the church and christianity that made me famous and gave me a platform of which a lot of people have looked to jennifer, as i did for many years, enjoy her music, went to her concerts, was a part of crusades that she was involved with, and yeah, i don't want people to think that it's right. >> larry: pastor, i'll have her respond and we'll let you talk it with each other. but a question that puzzles. you said choice, that she made a choice. did you make a choice for head sex -- heterosexuality. >> larry: i fell in love with a
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gal i was dating in san diego. >> larry: but you made a choice to date a girl. how did you know you liked women? how did you know? if she likes girls. >> yeah. >> larry: how did you know you didn't like boys romantically? how did you know you liked women? >> well, i just personally knew that first of all that i did. i naturally knew i did. >> larry: so she can't naturally knows she likes the same sex? she can't naturally know that? >> ultimately, you have to come back to what truth you're going to base your life on. i don't think it's wise for any of us to base our decisions on feelings. i want to base decisions on facts. and for me, the fact has become the truth of god's word. and god creates this wonderful gift of marriage where a man leaves his mother and his father and cleaves unto a wife. he didn't make adam and steve. he didn't make eve and ellen. he made a man and woman. >> larry: he is om nip important.
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>> he is omniptent. >> larry: you mean he did everything but that? >> here is the deal, larry. he has given to us, back to your question of choice. he has given to us a choice. me a choice whether or not i'm going to follow and abide by his word. jennifer a choice as to whether or not she'll abide in her relationships according to his word. >> larry: jennifer, how do you respond? >> you're a well-studied man. you have a masters degree in divinity. you're a study pastor, right? >> i've got a lot to learn. >> you've actually studied. i haven't gone to seminary. i haven't gone to bible school. yet i'm aware of the fact -- i'm deeply aware of the fact that we're relying on the translations of greek and that we're translating from a language, you and i, that is not originally our own. >> hebrew, the old testament, greek. >> there are a lot of well-studied academics, both
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believers and seekers of god and those who are purely trying to understand what the sacred text means to all of us that really put question on how we've interpreted the words, what is it malkos and arsakoinay. there are two greek words that we have substituted in our definition of homosexuality, in the manner in which we use it. and my curiosity is how do you -- how do you respond to that knowledge knowing that perhaps maybe we don't have the full understanding of the academics -- >> larry: in other words, simply put, could your interpretation of a word be wrong? >> well, that's a great question. >> larry: that's why we asked it. >> absolutely. i believe that god's word is inspired. i believe that god breathes -- >> am i not inspired by god because i am filled with love for you, for my partner, for my family? >> when god says in his word
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this is what love is, and we pervert that and turn it into something that -- >> how am i perverted? >> we have taken a love that he designed to be lived out in marriage. that is his sexual outlet for male and females to enjoy union together in the holy sankmony of marriage. >> larry: let me get a break and we'll pick it back up. don't go away. i'm ed whitacre, from general motors. a lot of americans didn't agree with giving gm a second chance.
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>> larry: we're back with jennifer knapp and pastor bob botsford. do you feel hurt, jennifer, by what the pastor thinks? >> no. i've shared my grievances with bob offcamera. i'm not hurt by his stance and his holding to the scripture. i highly respect that. and i think the community of believes in the church where he is at are there because that's what they choose and that's tradition of christianity that they choose to follow. i respect that. >> larry: do you believe jennifer is going to go to hell? >> larry, god is the judge. i'm just here --
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>> larry: you're judging her. >> well, am i? >> larry: sure. >> i'm here out of love. i don't have a -- >> if i am a sinner and homosexuality is a sin, let's go on that premise for a moment, what separates that particular sin out from the fact that i'm angry or mad at someone or that i cheat or maybe, you know -- what separates that out as so grievous to you that we have to sit here and have this type of conversation? >> well, it's interesting. sin is sin. you're absolutely right. and we all have sin. >> so why aren't you in this seat and i'm in the other seat condemning you on national television? >> i'm not condemning you. listen, i'm here because i love you. and i told you that offair. i'll say it on air. i'm here because i'm concerned. i'm here as a family member. >> my phone number. >> you calling yourself a
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christian still as part of the family of god as i said in the blog, jen, come home. come back. >> on air. i have spiritual leadership in my life. >> yes. >> the pastoral counsel of those who are dear to me, who understand the scripture as sacred text. also, want to -- >> i'm not sure they do, jen. >> don't interrupt me. you are not that man in my life. >> i agree. i'm not saying i'm you're spiritual authority. >> you do not know me, and don't have the right to speak to me publicly. >> i do have a role to stand up for truth. >> in your congregation and your community. i'm asking you not to do that. i ask you not say that you're doing that on my behalf. >> i'm here as a representative of jesus christ. >> larry: you are judging. you are judging. >> this story, larry, where, you know, there is -- in john chapter 8, everybody comes rushing in.
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and there is a lot of emotional heartbeat on both sides of the fence of this thing. this woman was caught in the act of adultery and the old testament says she ought to be stoned. what do you say? and they really try and put jesus into the corner. he very interestingly says he who is without sin cast the first stone. have i sin in my life. i'm not sit hearing -- >> larry: so why single out gays? >> a lesbian and a believer. >> listen, jesus, and the rest of the story is what people are missing out on. i'm not here with stones. i'm not here with bats. jesus looks at her and says where are your accusers? and she says they're gone. and he says neither do i condemn you, go and sin no more. here is the difference. jennifer is wanting to justify the sin. >> first off, that's a very big premise. you assume that you and i both agree that homosexuality is one,
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a choice, and two a sin. so to say that i have to justify it off that premise is inaccurate. >> well, based on the sacred writings of what you're saying your spiritual authority. >> larry: a break guys, hold it. former teleevangelist ted haggard has survived scandal, says today he no longer has homosexual thoughts. his take on all this next. [ male announcer ] we call it the american renewal. because ge capital understands what businesses need to grow. that's why today ge capital provides critical financing to more than 300,000 growing companies. ♪
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>> larry: we're back with jennifer knapp, the grammy-nominated christian music artist. new album "letting go" released in may. pastor bob botsford, senior pastor horizon christian fellowship san diego. joining us from colorado, a previous guest on this show, always good to see him, ted haggard, former pastor. a 2006 scandal destroyed ted's new life megachurch ministry, shocked the evangelical community to its core. all right, ted, you've been listening. what are your comments and then we'll get into specifics. what do you think overall here
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of what we've heard? >> yeah, i think both of them have some good points. i really appreciate what jennifer is saying and what she is going through. and i think her big premise is that she is on a journey just like every one of us are. she accepts that all of sin and falls short of the glory of god, that god is working in us, that we have his scriptures to work with, and it is true people read them differently and people interpret them differently. and the pastor has a point in saying it is his role as a pastor to try to be salt and light and represent the word the way it's read. i do think, though, that the important overall message is that we emphasize personal relationship with god. and the core of everything that we say is this wonderful delight in who jesus is and what he does, he accepts the fact that we've all fallen short. he accepts the fact that there are broad range of sins. we humans say one is more important than another. but he talks about how all of it separates us, and he accepts the fact that we are all on a journey that won't be completed until we see him face-to-face. so the pastor is right. let me finish this. the pastor is right in that he
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sins, and jennifer is right in that she sins. both are saved by the grace of god. and it would be good for them not to judge each other. >> larry: i don't think jennifer said she sins. you said you're not gay. you admitted to a gay experience. do you, ted, believe that homosexuality is a sin? >> i believe that when people don't fulfill god's perfect plan for their life, they're falling short and they're sing. and i think people sin all day, every day, and that everybody, regardless of the complex nature of their sexuality or whatever, everybody needs the grace of god. >> larry: okay. so therefore, bob, you're as bad, if that's the term, as jennifer. your sin may be different, but just different. why is hers worse than yourself? >> larry, the difference here if i can point out with jennifer and ted is this. there -- all of us on planet
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earth in the human race have sinned. we have all fallen short of the glory of god. >> larry: all right. >> jesus came to die in our place to forgive of us our since, no so that we would remain in a sinful lifestyle, so that we would leave that life of sin that leads to death and be born again. the whole idea of being a christian that what i used to be i no longer am. >> larry: but you still sin. >> i make mistakes every day. but sin isn't ruling my life. jesus christ is ruling my life. and when i mess up, i can repent. >> larry: so jesus christ can't rule her life if she is a lesbian? >> listen, if someone is allowing sin, and sin is called out in the bible whether it's homosexuality, adultery, whether it's stealing, the list is there. read it for yourself. >> larry: cheating on your income tax. >> allowing that to continue to reign over your life is not allowing jesus christ to be lord. i'm allowing jesus christ to be lord.
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my role every day is to die to sin, not justify sin. >> larry: but he, jesus christ loves her as much as he loves her. >> he loves everyone. >> not for a moment have i ever sat here and justified my individual path in my life. i am not sit hearing to try to tell someone that they have to walk the path that i walk. please preserve that for me. but to call -- go ahead. ted? >> that is a very, very important point. because when the pastor says jesus is lord of his life, that is true. but he is still in process. it could be some other violations that he has. but the core of the christian faith is a relationship with god where god lovingly walks us through. i had three boys come to christ one time. one wiz immoral with his girlfriend. the other with a smoker. the other was drinker. one was convict to have had sexual activity. the other was convicted -- or they all had three of those things, and all three of those things in their life lives. one was convict to have had sex.
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the other was convicted of the drinking. the other was convict to have had smoking. and as they have gone through the years, just as the pastor described, they have all become different people as they grow. that's happening in jennifer's life, that's happening in the pastor's life. our role isn't just to call out one particular sin and say all these people are in trouble. our role is to say we're all in a process, and we need to encourage one another. so jennifer has a group of believers she meets with. they study the scripture. they can go on that. they can do that process. that process obviously is not going to be pastor bob's church. it will be another group of believers which is why we have a diversity of churches. >> larry: and on that note, let me get a break and come right back. don't go away. heel pressure. high arches. (announcer) people everywhere are discovering what's going on with their feet. dr. scholl's custom fit orthotic center. backed by foot care scientists, its foot mapping technology
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we get a couple of great reads on our blogs. see what tim has to say about his "american idol" experience. he got the boot wednesday night. and ray johnston's story is an inspiring one. he is playing in the nba one day, in a coma next. all that on cnn.com/larryking. pastor, do you at all hear bad when you hear stories about people who kill gay people? >> absolutely. >> larry: they got the right messages about how sinful that is that that take it to that extreme. and you add to that, don't you? >> i hope not. i hope i don't. >> larry: you paint the picture. in the old testament, i'm not a biblical scholar you can't eat shellfish. do you eat shellfish? >> absolutely. >> larry: you're a sinner. >> no i'm not. there are things, larry that are very important to keep in context here. although there are verses in the book of leviticus that say don't eat shellfish, don't wear clothes that have difficult
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materials on it, jennifer has mentioned article things in the articles she has given on coming out. god changed his mind on shellfish. >> larry: when did he do that? >> there is a wonderful passage -- >> on mankind and he gave his savior for one and for all. >> he changed his mind, if i can finish in acts chapter 10, to answer your question, larry, on shellfish. and cornelius has this amazing enlightenment as peter has this vision of the lord saying eat whatever you want. >> larry: peter may have been hungry. no pun intended. >> there is this grace that comes upon all of us no longer to live by the law of the old testament but when you get to the issue of homosexuality, he doesn't change his mind on that. it flows over into the new testament and it as powerfully
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in as it was in the old testament. >> larry: peter gets a vision about shellfish. what if ted gets a vision about homosexuality that says since it's not a choice and as long as a person is observant and good, it is no longer a sin. you will not believe ted? >> god didn't use ted to write the scriptures. and the scriptures that have been written are the scriptures i go by. >> larry: nothing is being written today? >> absolutely not. >> larry: done. >> in the book of revelation, we're told there is a blessing upon those that keep what is written in this book, and a curse upon anyone who would add to it or take away from it. >> larry: ted, under that concept. >> wanting to take away from the bible -- >> larry: under that concept, ted, your faith does not evolve, right? >> well, i think what the pastor -- i think the point the pastor makes is a good one, but it's an incomplete one. all of the new testament is about a love relationship with god that is appropriated for all of us through the lord jesus christ and the sacrifice on the cross. >> agreed. >> as a result of that, there are ethics. there are rules, there are things that happen. but those rules and those ethics are not the core.
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the core is the relationship. it's like my relationship with my wife. my wife and i love one another. but if we went to a conference that just taught us all the rules of what a good home should look like, that would be a sterile existence. or if we learned about love and intimacy and growth and process and going through life together, then those ideas can supplement that. that's the way the bible is. and so that's why the bible says in romans 1, when it talks about homosexuality, it follows up with the first versus in romans ii saying hey, be cautious about judging other people about this because you all do the same things. and then he concludes that first paragraph in romans ii by saying -- by saying hasn't it dawned on you that it's the love and the mercy of god that leads to our repentance and our salvation. so what he highlight there's is that we're all going -- the purpose of the holy spirit is to create in us a holy spirit we grow. the purpose of the word of god is to convict us and help us grow, sanctify us. that's all good. but we can't do it to one
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another like that. >> larry: jennifer, you would say amen to that? >> that's not our role. >> i don't have a problem with that at all. i think that leaves room for a great many sinful people. >> well, we're all sinful people. >> what it gives room for is truth is relative. cain was given parameters. and he chose not to do with that offering what god had laid out. so as much as ted is saying the rules don't really apply. >> they apply. >> i love you and i pray for you and your congregation. >> and i want to -- >> i'm not -- >> larry: jennifer wants to say something. >> i just want to say -- i appreciate both your men's wisdom. you guys in several different ways have been speakers of the truth in a community that has looked to you. i thank you, and i pray for your ministry.
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i hope you continue to be a light for the people that you serve and the people that call upon you. that's what love is. to be here and even though i phenomenally disagree, to encourage you to find the truth that is written in this mysterious and sacred word. >> that's my prayer for you, jennifer. >> as we all continue on our travels and our journey and this mysterious -- >> larry: let me get a -- we'll be right back. let me get a break, folks. we'll be right back. don't go away. we'll be right back. we don't want anything... ...to slow us down. but even in your 30s... ...your bones can begin to change. overtime, you can begin to have bone loss. calcium and vitamin d work together to help keep your bones strong. and yoplait gives you... ...20% of your daily calcium... ...and is the only leading yogurt with vitamin d in every cup. keep your bones strong every day... ...with yoplait.
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>> larry: we have just touched this subject. but an important one. so many people are affected by it. i want to get concluding thoughts. is it a choice or not a choice. do we choose whether we are gay or hetero, do we choose that in your opinion? >> i think that is a very, very complex thing that i don't want to get into here. what i do want to say here though is i believe the bible is the word of god and inspired. and i believe that jesus was very clear and the scriptures are clear when they say the command is to love, the command
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that covers them all, predominant, love the lord your god with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength. love your neighbor as yourself. and so, so, love is the predominant thing. god is love, the scripture says. jesus displays how to do this. jesus warns religious leaders, strongly, that we must not use the scriptures to point our fingers at other people without letting the fingers point at us as well. >> larry: is that true in your opinion, bob? is that true? >> absolutely. yeah. i agree with that completely, larry. >> larry: why point a finger at jennifer? >> jennifer is in a position of great influence. a lot of people look to her life. i wouldn't want her example, or lifestyle -- >> the young teenage girl sitting in your congregation, gosh i might have to choose
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between my sexuality and my faith. you want her to choose faith. >> i do. i want you to choose faith. >> you want her to deny any part of her process to go through the process of shame without truely saying, she doesn't want to choose to be homosexual. at which point does that become honest, because you guilted her into don't be like jen? >> i am coming back to the bible. clearly got has an opinion on thisser to -- this issue. >> i will repeat, next time you want to talk about an example of what you actually need to teach to your followers, please use the words this is the congregation and how we are going to talk about homosexuality within our church. don't use my name, do not use my name as a substitute for the word homosexuality. >> listen, i am to be a light in a dark place. there is a lot of justification now. let's just open up our arms of grace and welcome jen christian
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community. >> where did i go? >> for eight years to australia. >> because i wasn't in your church? >> it can't be a sin unless it is chosen? >> it's not because god says it is a sin. >> larry: you can't be a sinner if you are born with four fingers. >> nothing sinful about having four fingers, larry. a choice in life. we are all making. >> larry: you can't have four fingers. i don't understand it. you are saying it is a choice? >> i'm saying paul clearly says in chapter two, whatever my life has been up and to this point, i have now melt christ. and paul says, as a result of what christ has done for me on the cross, i am to be crucified with christ, it is no longer i who live, whether it is homosexuality tendencies, stealing tendencies, or adultery, pedophile, it is no longer i.
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and the life i live i live by faith. i can't have it both ways. >> larry: ted, a minute left. we are never going to answer this, are we, ted? >> never. >> i think it is an understanding of roles. jennifer is in right she is saying you do that with your congregation, but we are not your congregation. i think the pastor is right in that i am crucified with christ. let jennifer go through her process as well and god is the one who will judge it. >> larry: thank you all very much for an enlightened, interesting discussion. we hope to have you back. jennifer, pastor, and ted. when we come back, a tease from american idol. national car rental knows i'm picky. so, at national, i go right past the counter... and you get to choose any car in the aisle. choose any car? you cannot be serious!
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okay. seriously, you choose. go national. go like a pro. okay. seriously, you choose. hi, ellen! hi, ellen! hi, ellen! hi, ellen! we're going on a field trip to china! wow. [ chuckles ] when i was a kid, we -- we would just go to the -- the farm. [ cow moos ] [ laughter ] no, seriously, where are you guys going? ni hao! ni hao! ni hao! ni hao! ni hao! ni hao! ni hao! ni hao! ni hao! ni hao! ni hao! ni hao!
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>> larry: tomorrow night we are replaying our interview with our friends from "american idol" a preview of our "idol gives back" show. >> larry: one aspect of the season's "idol" that has fans buzzing, the back and forth between ryan and simon. it's become regular already. let's take a look. >> sometimes yes, sometimes no. >> that is a pathetic answer. >> if i would be allowed to continue, ryan. very boring. there are a lot of people -- >> did i see someone dancing in the background. that was beautiful. >> simon is confused as to what artist you want to be. >> is that okay with you? >> 100% i approve. and well-said. >> larry: we have this question posted to larry king live face book page. is the attitude between ryan and simon for ratings or is there real tension there?
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>> ask ryan, he is under orders. >> oh. >> ryan, lay it out. >> i am under orders to grovel, se. bow and be in awe. >> he did the show in england before any of us did it. it is his baby. >> larry: there were tweets to king's things from people who want to know if there is any chance paula abdul will come back to idol with him going? >> we should ask the boss. >> where is he? >> larry: are you still the boss of the show after you leave? >> no, no, no. >> you have been doing this longer than any of us? >> larry: will she come back? >> don't think she will. >> larry, you should come and join us on the show. >> i want him to come on and do the "this is american idol" at the top of the show. can you do it?
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