each and every one of them. they are here, as you can see, with me right now in the studio. no, thank you. and i want to say thank you to you guys. i'm going to miss you. >> you're awesome. >> that's it, good night, >> that's it, good night, everybody, thank you. -- captions by vitac -- www.vitac.com >> larry: tonight -- two little boys, alex and derek king, 11 and 12, brutally murder their own father. >> but i was the one that gave him the idea. >> larry: their trial, a sensation. the entire country wondered why. what led to his hideous end at the hands of his own sons?

>> hit him somewhere around ten times. >> larry: one of the brothers is here, nine years later, to talk about a single act of violence and its impact and how he is making the most of a second chance at life as a free man. it's next on "larry king live." we welcome alex king to "larry king live." he pled guilty, along with his brother derek, to the third degree murder of their father back in 2001. he served seven years in prison. his unofficial adoptive mother is catherine. she is with us too. catherine met alex while writing a book about this case. we invited derek king to join us. he chose not to appear. first, let's go back in time. nine years ago to the night that changed everything. watch. in november of 2001, 40-year-old terry king was murdered.

his head smashed with a baseball bat. and his house set on fire. his two sons, 12-year-old alex and 13-year-old derek, eventually confessed to the brutal crime. >> i hit him once and then i heard him moan and then i was afraid that he might wake up and see us so i just kept on hitting him. >> okay. >> hit him somewhere around ten times. >> but i was the one that gave him the idea. >> larry: but later they changed their story and blamed this man, rick chavez, their father's friend, with the killing. the boys also said that chavez, a convicted child molester, had been sexually abusing alex. >> did you at some point believe that you were in love with ricky chavis? >> yes, sir. >> did you write some notes and letters about how you felt about ricky chavis? >> yes, sir. >> what does it say? >> alex w. king loves ricky

marvin chavis so so much always and forever. >> larry: in a bizarre and sensational trial that captivated the nation, alex and derek were tried and convicted as adults for second degree murder and faced 22 years to life in prison. >> we, the jury, find as follows as to count one of the indictment. guilty of second degree murder. >> larry: i judge threw out the verdict, ordered a mediation, where the two boys pled guilty to a lesser charge of third degree murder. alex received seven years in juvenile detention. derek was sentenced to eight. rick chavis was acquitted of murder and child molestation and is serving 35 years for evidence tampering and accessory to murder. alex was released in 2008. his brother one year later. and we welcome to "larry king live" alex king. and his -- what are you, catherine, his adoptive mother,

his what? >> i'm unofficially his unadopted mother. he calls me mom. >> larry: you've been out how now, alex? >> a little over two years. >> larry: what's it like outside? >> it's -- well, at first, i could say it was a bit confusing. i spent a lot of time trying to figure things out. but i'd say it's really nice. with a family like i have. with cathy and her daughters and everything. >> larry: where were you held? >> a few different facilities. i was in the pensacola county. i was in a program in okeechobee. and ultimately i ended up in bevard correctional institution. >> larry: both juvenile institutions? >> well, brevard was a youthful offenders camp or actual prison for people 25 years old and younger. >> larry: do you often think back to that day?

>> no, not so much anymore. i've come -- i've made peace with that. actually, back in 2000 -- well, a little before 2005 actually, could say being in the program became monotonous over time and i did something really dumb. i tried to escape from the facility. climbed up in the roof and ended up in a classroom. that -- from there, i went -- county to await those charges. and while in there, i received a letter from cathy. and she -- she just offered support and love. i had received another letter from my family members that was saying they were through with me. and seeing the contrast just kind of opened my eyes to a lot of things.

cathy had already been in touch with jayne weintraub. >> larry: who will be on with us later, the lawyer. why did you -- you covered this case. you wrote a book about this case. why get so involved as to take one of the boys involved into your home? >> well, it certainly wasn't my intention. it was just part of a journey. when i met alex, i just -- it just -- it sort of awakened something -- maybe the mother in me. and what i saw was a child who had been abandoned all of his life. he had been passed from relative to stranger, through the foster care system, ended up in an orphanage, and now he was ultimately even more alone because he was in prison 15 hours from any relative and it just sort of broke my heart. >> larry: where's derek? >> derek was in a different facility and i was not allowed to contact him. it was a high security facility. so now he is oute, and he is in

jacksonvil jacksonville. he's enrolled in classic. he's doing very well. >> larry: are the two of you close? >> we're brothers. we have our differences. >> larry: wasn't he in fost eer care a lot? >> he was. we both were. i had ended up going back to stay with my father. and we weren't in touch for a while. but since we've been back in touch, you know. >> larry: i know you don't want to discuss how you killed your father. that's -- i understand that completely. but it's fair to ask why you killed him. >> you know, those times were really confusing for me. i don't even really -- i don't even think about it anymore. i'm more focused on now, in the future. >> larry: this man, chavis, is doing time in prison. he caused this, did he not? >> um, i can say that had he not been around, um, my father would -- i believe my father would still be alive.

>> larry: they were friends, were they not? >> they were, they were, from what i recall. >> if i could address that as well. >> larry: yeah. >> i ultimately ended up interviewing this man in county jail for a number of months. >> larry: chavis? >> yeah. and i really felt what we had there was a pedophile who had been convicted and served time and he actually just went after this child. >> larry: alex. >> alex, yeah. what he tried to do -- he searched out a victim in which there was a father who was doing the best that he could. he was struggling to make ends meet and pull his family together. >> larry: no mother, right? >> no mother, long since gone. he volunteered to help. once he had engrashated himself to terry king, then accessing alex was child's play. >> larry: why would he want alex to kiltl terry king? what was the point of that? >> i think the possibility that terry had found out about what was going on. is very real. and i don't know -- and alex

doesn't even remember specific instructions or anything of that nature. but this man is so manipulative and so persuasive that a child would never even see it coming. >> larry: have you blocked it out? >> i would say that i've made peace with it. >> larry: we'll take a break. we'll be right back with alex king and kathryn medico. don't go away. you should get some custom fit orthotics. dr. scholl's custom fit orthotic center. it recommends the custom fit orthotic that's best for your feet. and footcare scientists are behind it. you'll get immediate comfort... ... and, you could save a couple hundred bucks. for locations see drscholls.com i'm going to own my own restaurant. i want to be a volunteer firefighter.

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we, like, started playing

and stuff with toys. and i said, don't worry about him, i'll deal with him. so when he went to sleep, i got -- i made sure he was asleep. i got the bat. and i hit him over the head. >> larry: alex, do you remember, how old were you when this pedophile started bothering you? >> um, i don't believe -- well, it was before then. i think i was about 9 or 10. >> larry: did you think about going to your father or telling your father about it or telling friends or telling somebody? >> well, friends, i never had any. my father -- we didn't communicate very much. um, he was always stressed a lot from work and everything. and i guess we never really had

open lines like that. >> larry: why were they tried as adults? >> because that's the way florida does things. actually, more and more states are doing that as well. >> larry: trying them as adults. >> trying children as adults. there's a child right now named jordan brown in pennsylvania. he committed a crime, supposedly, allegedly, at the age of 11. although there's some question as to the possibility of another person being involved. but they're -- it's under appeal now. they're about to try him as an adult. if he is convicted, he will be put away for 22 to life without the possibility of parole. and that's just what we're doing in this country. sort of alex is the poster boy of saying, why are we doing that? it's not necessary. let's very developmentally appropriate punishment and rethat bireha b rethat bill rehabilitate these children who are so malleable.

>> larry: what feelings do you have for chavis now? >> typically, i don't think about him. um, it was -- moment in the past. >> larry: you put it away? >> pretty much. >> larry: you interviewed him? >> uh-huh. >> larry: what was he like to talk to? >> he was incredibly manipulative. very image focused. i never felt like i was getting an answer that was a true one. i was getting the answer that painted him the best light possib possible. i could easily see how a child could be manipulated. >> larry: explain something. he was acquitted of murder, right? >> yes. >> larry: what is he -- he served time as a pedophile, right? the. >> yes. >> larry: what is he in jail for? >> well, niece jail for accessory after the fact. >> larry: how is he an accessory? >> he took the boy's clothing and washed it and did certain things to hide the boys. he hid them in his basement of his trailer. he built underneath his trailer a special room which was

equipped with carpet and a bong so they could smoke pot and magazines. he would hide children down there. >> larry: you testified against him, right? >> i did. >> larry: he was charged and later acquitted of sexual abuse. let's watch what you said at that time. >> in that note, did you state at the end of it, before i metric, i was straight, but now i'm gay? >> yes, sir. >> at the time you wrote this note, did you think you were gay? >> yes, sir. >> why did you think you were gay? >> because rick told me that. >> larry: you ever hear from him at all? >> no. >> larry: where is he serving time? >> he is not in rayford. he's in a correctional institute not very far from tallahassee. >> larry: he's the real culprit here, right? >> well, you can argue it both ways. >> larry: well, he victimized these kids. >> my belief is he drove a wedge between these children. that their relationship with their father was not bad enough

to have something like this occur. and if he weren't involved, i think terry king would be alive today. >> larry: what are you doing now, a lex? >> i'm actually working at the oil spill, the cleanup. >> larry: you're working at the oil spill? >> well, we're doing the oil spill cleanup on the beach. >> larry: for bp? >> yes, sir. >> larry: do they pay you? >> they do. >> larry: well, we met someone that bp is paying. no, i'm only kidding. do you go to school too? >> i took the summer off to work out at the beach. i'm just right now just trying to get a car, transportation, and let's see -- >> larry: you're 21 now, huh? >> i am. >> he's kind of modest because he says he goes to school, but he's actually on the dean's list and last septembmester he was o president's list. >> larry: what school? >> a community college in jacksonville. >> larry: what do you want to do? >> i'm into mathematics and computer science. i intend to get into information

analysis hopefully. >> larry: you're going to be a nerd? >> pretty much. >> larry: bill gates your hero? microsoft and -- >> close enough. >> larry: you use all those products? you know what you're doing? >> for most part i do. >> larry: how can -- there's no psych -- how can alex or his brother ever be normal? >> love has a transfer magsal power. it is just being embraced with compassion and nonjudgment and every day is one closer step to healing. and in giving a child an opportunity to give back. when alex first came to live with us, i realized that community service was going to be so important because giving of yourself is how you heal. i took him to barcelona to a conference of humanitarians. and introduced him to dr. deepak chopra. >> larry: who will be with us later.

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>> larry: when you look at those tapes, what do you think? you look at yourself? >> wow. that's a long time ago. it's totally different person. different life. >> larry: that's not you? >> it doesn't seem like it a lot of times. >> larry: wow. you have a family, right? >> i do. >> larry: what was it like to bring him home? >> it was great joy because -- you understand, we had a relationship for seven years. i would go and visit alex. we wrote letters. literally hundreds and hundreds of letters were exchanged. so the day he finally came home

was an amazing and joyful day. alex had told us that he wanted to wear white when he actually existed the prison. >> larry: because? >> it signified purity and transcendness from the darkness. >> he felt as though he had served his time with integrity, he was moving forward, he was leaving everything else behind, and the white -- he actually ended up wearing white for about a month. but it was great. it was -- what we did -- i got some counseling ahead of time so that i might be prepared to meet his needs, and what i found was that he needed his time to adjust in his own way. so he would sit on the couch and just sort of watch us running around, living our lives. and it was a while before he joined in. >> larry: yeah. do you ever hear from your mother? >> when i went to pensacola to live with my grandparents, i -- she was living there as well so -- >> larry: your mother's parents? >> right. >> larry: yeah. >> and so we've been in touch for a couple of months now.

and it's going -- >> larry: does she have any guilt? >> um -- >> larry: she deserted you, right? >> it would seem -- it would seem that way but, you know, things like this take time. >> larry: what are your feelings for her? >> she's great. >> larry: she is? do you know the mother? >> i do, i do. >> larry: does she have guilt? >> i think she does. i think she wishes that she had an opportunity to do things a little differently. she had four absolutely wonderful children. >> larry: two others? >> there were. and they were adopted. there were two twins who were adopted. >> larry: you know them? >> um, it's been years since i saw them. >> larry: boy, this is a complex story. >> very multidimensional. >> larry: is this the happy ending or is this the beginning? >> maybe both. the good news is that we can take children who have been involved in a situation like this and we can apply compassion to them, give them appropriate

sentences, and they can emerge intact. we don't have to completely give up on them. we spend $55 a day per inmate in florida. instead of continuing to pay for him for rest of his life, why not have him come out, heal, and move forward and pay taxes? >> larry: why not? we'll take a break. and others will join us. we're with alex king and kathryn medico. alex's attorney is next.

we, the jury, find, as follows as to count one of the indictment. guilty of second degree murder, a lesser included offense, without a weapon. >> larry: jayne weintraub joins us. she's a criminal defense attorney. she was hired by rosie o'donnell to represent alex and help him get a new trial after his conviction.

jayne, how did rosie get involved? how did she involve you? >> well, rosie o'donnell was watching the case in florida. i guess from wherever she was. she asked somebody that she saw -- she was going on the "today" show and she asked somebody in florida if they knew a female lawyer that was really tough and could get things done. she called me up. i wasn't even working at the time. my mom had just passed away. i told rosie, i'm not working right now, i just can't really do this. she said, you know what your mother would want you to go back to work. go back to work. it had been six weeks. she called me again. i went up to pensacola. and i saw this little boy. the pictures that you've been showing. and i saw him in a jail cell, throwing a spalding ball at the wall in the jail cell. and how could you not just want to help this kid? he was a baby. he was a little boy. yes, he did something awful. but we don't just throw children away. and i think -- >> larry: at that time, jayne, he was convicted and he was

facing what? >> he was facing 22 to life and he was going to get 22 years. there was no doubt in my mind. and he was going to sentenced and put in an adult prison and that is the problem here. >> larry: what changed the judge? >> when i came up with a colleague, we filed a motion for a new trial, a motion to set aside the verdict actually, and one of the reasons was that chavis had been tried just the week before for this murder. so the prosecutor waent into courtroom one and told the jury that chavis committed this crime. and then the prosecutor sealed that verdict. nobody knew what it was except he and the judge. then they went back into another courtroom for alex and derek a week later and they told that jury that derek and alex had committed this crime. i mean, it was unfathomable that a prosecutor could do that. there were two different theories. you can't convict two people of one act like that on two different -- >> larry: it's crazy. so he was found not guilty in

that crime. the judge then threw it out and ordered a new trial or just changed the sentence? >> well, no, what he did was he said he was going to order a new trial. and he ordered us to mediation. which was also a very unique circumstance and a very great idea by judge. we all went into mediation and had to come up with a reasonable compromise. the prosecutor was in a position where he knew the gig was up. although in the court of public opinion, the boys had already been convicted, they were going to get another chance with different lawyers. >> larry: let's all discuss this. alex too. jayne, what do we do with a 10-year-old or 11-year-old who commits a horrendous crime? what do we do as a society? >> well, we can't give up on them. i mean, look at him now. he is a 21-year-old young man. i am so proud and grateful to have been part of this. giving him his life back. he's been punished. it's not as if the kid wasn't punished.

you know, larry, the united states supreme court has ruled we can't put children to death under the age of 18, even for murder, because their brains aren't fully formed. they're not ready. he's not mature. he didn't have the experience. he was under the influence of ricky chavis who was hiding him for ten days. this was a kid who was being home schooled but nobody was home. this is a kid who had no structure with a pedophile teaching him to smoke pot and do all sorts of things. and the reality is alex didn't know what was right and what was wrong. he had nobody telling him what to do. this is a kid who never was tucked in or had milk or cookies. he had no love and no structure. what we need to do? we need to give them love and structure. we need to raise these children. we need to get high school mentoring programs going. we need to get our church and our synagogues involved. we need to get the community to understand that elected officials aren't going to get leekted by tough on crime, put the child away as an adult. because they're so young, they're going to get out by the time they're 40. then what? >> larry: alex, do you ever fear

you could be violent again? >> um, actually that would come back to a vow that i took with -- when i was in barcelona with my mother. a vow of nonviolence. a movement started by deepak chopra. >> larry: he'll be with us in a little while. you have vowed nonviolence? >> yes, i have. >> larry: what would you add, kathryn, as to what to do when we -- by the way what was public opinion at the time in florida? >> it was really widely divided. >> larry: they do polls? >> they do polls. a lot of people were saying these children should, you know, they're monsters and they need to go away forever. but there was a compassionate few who said, you know what, there are alternatives that we need to investigate. there were a lot of people with a big heart that really said, you know what let's take a look at this and see if there's a way that we don't have to give up on these children. >> larry: jayne, mediation -- >> kathy medico, you are the one with a big heart. >> larry: we hear about mediation in contract dispute, divorce settlements. rarely in a criminal case does a

mediator step in. did it work? >> it was incredibly -- it did work because we were able to work through it. we came up with a theory for a third degree murder. which really didn't exist but it was palatablpalatable. even at that point, judge bell and rimer, david rimer, the prosecutor, had also objected to me getting them into the department of juvenile justice. they still wanted the boys to be serving time in an adult prison. even for seven years. so they didn't really understand either -- >> larry: wow. >> -- but because the sentence was only seven years, which was our objective and our goal, we knew as lawyers that we could get ahold of the secretary, which we did and work through our system in florida to get these boys into the places they needed to be. alex actually wound up going to school for the very first time. and he did great. because of his own determination

and his own perseverance. >> larry: alex, do you know rosie o'donnell? >> not personally. >> larry: you've never met her? >> unfortunately, no. >> larry: she helped you, she got the lawyer -- >> we did, we tried -- she invited us to come to her home in miami and we tried to make that happen but he has some restrictions on his probation and we were not able to make it happen at that time. >> larry: he's on probation now? >> he is. >> larry: for how long? >> another 2 1/2 years. >> larry: you report to a probation officer? >> i do. >> larry: how often? >> once a month. >> larry: you go with him? >> i don't have to go anymore. i went for the first couple of years. >> larry: we'll be back with more of this incredible story right after this.

>> larry: by the way, the reason alex is on probation and derek is not, both served their full time, is alex has the extra time because he tried to escape. could have got a lot more time. the boys originally confessed to the crime. then said it was actually rick chavis who did it. let's listen to part of what alex said during the trial. >> did you love your father? >> yes, sir. >> were you -- were you in the room when he was killed that night? >> no, sir. >> did derek kill your father? >> no, sir. >> larry: jayne, you think the

original confession was coerced? >> i think that they were too young to understand the process and couldn't waive their miranda rights. i think no motions, no evaluations were done on these children. there was no issue of competency that had been raised with the court. look at that little boy. he was 12 years old. he looks 10. this was not somebody mature enough to make a decision and understand. don't forget, here he was with ricky chavis this pedophile who if he had been put away, larry, this never would have happened. because he wouldn't have been taking these boys on, well, if terry were gone, you could live with me. they were so vulnerable. i'm not blaming the victim. but i am saying that there were reasons why this happened. and aren't we lucky that rosie o'donnell cared enough and felt so sorry for this little kid that she wanted lawyers to try and help him? and that a woman like kathy medico who is a guardian angel would come into alex's life and

give him a family and nurture him? i mean, look at this young man. he's doing great. dean's list. and working full time now. >> larry: yeah. who's daerek with? >> derek is living in the apartment -- jz in jacksonville? >> in jacksonville where he's going to school. >> larry: he lives by himself? >> yeah. >> larry: what is he going to do? >> i'm not sure he is decided yet. he's taking some classes. some of them he like and some he doesn't. french is definitely not up his alley. >> larry: do you think you two will ever be brother brothers? real brothers. >> you never know what the future holds. i would hope so. >> larry: do you want that? >> it would be nice to connect with my family, all of them again. >> larry: you've connected with your family? >> i have. it's going well so farp far. >> larry: you think they'll ever be brother brothers? >> i do. i think as they move through their 20s, they'll find more in common. they'll both perhaps marry. they certainly both like girls. >> larry: you do, huh? >> yes.

>> larry: you're not going to have a problem in that department. >> no. >> larry: jayne, why -- did you ask rosie why doesn't she go visit alex? this is such a wonderful thing she did. >> you know, larry, rosie didn't even want anybody to know at the beginning that she was behind hiring the lawyers. and she -- we stayed in touch with her. as a matter of fact, as soon as the motion was granted and the verdict set aside, i went right outside into the cameras and i walked across, i called rosie on her cell phone and i said, we did it. you saved this kid's life. and rosie said to me on that phone, that was a person to person call from your mother. and i have to tell you, larry, she changed my life as well because i went back to work full fledge ahead. and haven't stopped. >> larry: wow. >> she's a wonderful woman, rosie. >> larry: we have mentioned deepak chopra. he will join us after this.

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alex king. he's 19 years old. and when he was 12 you can't even imagine the trouble he was in. he is now opn a global campaign at schools and colleges to have schools take the vow. >> deepak chopra. physician. best-selling author. the book, new one, is "peace is the way." you cut off your hair? >> i was a monk, larry, for three weeks in the mon nas tri in thailand. >> larry: why? >> i just wanted to take a break and go deep inside and see where my priorities are now for the rest of my life so it was a moment of letting go of everything and the hair shaving is just symbolic of that. >> larry: are you going to stay that way? >> i think it's more convenient, yes. >> larry: before i ask, i want

to ask alex, do you miss, think about your dad? >> i miss my dad in my successes. i know that he would be proud of me. presently, i know he's at peace. so -- >> larry: you think about any individual moments you had with him? >> sometimes. >> larry: not a lot though. >> not a lot. >> larry: deepak, how did you come to meet alex? >> we were having a conference in barcelona on peace, larry. and we were told about our friend alex here and his mother, who's just an angel, as you know. and we got him a scholarship to come to the conference. a colleague of mine offered the scholarship. and he came there. and we were having a ceremony where 500 of us took a personal oath of nonviolence.

alex joined us. and then alex and i have kept in touch periodically. he started recruiting other people to join him in taking that oath of nonviolence. >> larry: what do you make -- i'm sorry, go ahead. >> you know, kathryn is the perfect example of nonjudgmental, unconditional love. which is redemtive. and, you know, as a physician, for the last 25 years, as you know, larry, i've explored the mind/body connection. rage like that in a brain that has not fully developed always has a cause. we know that emotional development in a child takes place in the first three or four years of life. just like we learned language. in the first three or four years of life. we don't remember when we learned language. we don't remember when we learned emotional skills. and if a child doesn't receive

love, if a child is abused in any way, the brain has a different physiology. there's a part of your brain called the limbric brain which is connected to your emotional state, your hormones. now we know that rage and even this kind of violence has biological basis. >> larry: you're not saying, though, that you forgive any action? >> we don't forgive any action. but we try and find out the causes, the root cause, of violence. and the root cause of violence in children is always some form of abuse or children who have been the victims of violence. >> larry: jayne, do you think -- hold on a second. jayne, do you think the public, majority, accepts that statement? >> i don't think they understand that statement really, truly. i think that they just want punishment and they want to

warehouse our children and that's why our elected officials think that's a platform to get where they want to go. and it's a terrible wrong position i think. and that's why i fight so hard to do what i do. and i am grateful for people like deepak and for kathy medico who demonstrate every day how people really should live their lives. >> larry: you think it's changing, kathryn, public attitude? >> i am optimistic. i do think that we are embracing the transformational power of love. as, you know, globally. so i'm hopeful that people will sustain less judgment and they will embrace the possibility for these children. >> larry: does it puzzle you, alex, just puzzle you, as to -- i mean, you know the reasons. you know this other guy and he did terrible things. but does it ever puzzle you as to why did i do this? >> well, i have to say that that was a very confusing time for me.

i don't think much on it now. i don't remember very much. but i don't -- as i say, i don't think about it. there is really no cause for confuse now. >> larry: do you think, deepak that most people think, well, my kid wouldn't do that? >> well, if their kid has been loved, nurtured and has been really taken care of, they won't do that. but, you know, we're seeing an epidemic of violence in our children. every now and then you have programs on your show where we've seen, you know, acts, heinous acts committed by chi t children. we never look at the root cause. the root cause is our own society. you know, at the end, we have to look at the root cause. we have to heal our children by healing ourselves. the children -- children at that age don't have a fully developed brain. and they mirror the newurons of the people around them. and this is now getting some

very good scientific attention. that young children, their neurons will mirror the neurons of people in their environment. if the people are abusive, if the people are angry, if the people are hostile, if the people are violent, then you'll get a child that has imbibed that unconsciously. and there's a physiology associated with it. as i said, your limbic system, your hypothalmus is connected to your hormonal system. you can go into what is called free floating rage. there is some evidence that even in the womb, if a baby is in the womb and the mother is hearing violent sounds like police shots or gunshots or ambulance alarms, her adrenaline levels go up, which causes the baby to have a heart rate that speeds up. >> larry: amazing, yeah. >> and later when the baby is born, he has something or she has something called free

floating rage, which means rage without any cause. >> larry: kathryn, did you have any, any, even minute, fear of alex? >> well, no, because -- >> larry: because you knew what he had done. >> first of all, alex never committed any violence. let's be clear of that. >> larry: he didn't? >> no, he didn't. he's not accused of having done a violent act. he's accused of having said something. right? and so i got to know him over the course of seven years and i never knew him to be violent in any way. >> larry: derek did the act? >> derek was accused of committing the act, being the perpetrator. >> larry: alex was not the perpetrator? >> no. >> larry: so there was no need to have any fear? >> no, there was no fear. >> of course, larry, under the law, they were looked at as equal. >> larry: by the law, they were, okay. we'll be back. let's check in with anderson cooper, "ac 360." what's up tonight, anderson? >> larry tonight shirley sherrod

lost her job. the truth about her speech that stirred a racial controversy has given her a chance to return to the department of agriculture. she's been offered a new job. we'll have the first live interview with miss sherrod since she's been offered a job. plus how much oil has been leaked out of that well? we'll sort it out with james carville, keeping them honest. that and much more from louisiana at the top of the hour. >> larry: moments away, 10:00 eastern, 7:00 pacific. [ dr. banholzer ] every once in awhile

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interesting. i asked kathryn during the break if alex needed permission from his probation officer to come to our show. you needed more than that. >> yeah. >> larry: what did you have to do? >> he had to pay court costs and it's hard to get a job when you

have a record. he is contributing to paying for these court costs. >> larry: the whole -- >> the whole court costs. >> larry: what does he owe? $2,400, something like that. they said you cannot come unless you make a payment. and so that's what we had to do. >> larry: so you paid for him? >> i loaned alex the money because alex wants to pay these court costs. he feels like that's part of his responsibility. so i said to him, if that's the way you want to do it, i'll be happy to front you the money. he sooved the document and off we went. >> larry: what do you think, alex, if there had not been a kathryn in your life? >> that's an unpleasant thought. kathy, my mom, she's done so much good for me. it's unbelievable. she supported me throughout my entire incarceration, even when i got out. >> larry: no telling where you would be? >> no telling. >> larry: do you call your biological mother mom, too? >> i do. >> larry: jayne, what would have happened to alex, do you think,

if there were no kathryn and no rosie? >> i think he would have been still in prison, in state prison and he would have gotten out in another ten years and he would have gone back again, because he would have had nothing else to do but commit a crime. and, larry, look at him. look at that boy next to you. i am so proud and so glad to have had a chance to be part of doing what we did and helping to give this kid a life. >> larry: deepak, what do you think would have happened, no kathryn? >> he would have been in prison. if and when he got out, he had a likelihood of going back, because he would have been even more violent, going through the prison system that we have right now. you know, this is proof, larry, that love is a real healing force. this is not a metaphor. love restores self repair mechanisms. it restores self regulation. it restores what we call homeostasis. it spreads. it's contagious. in the eastern wisdom traditions

they say if you have loving kindness, if you have compassion, if you can make other people happy and if you have equinimity, that becomes a contagion. it is something that cannot be contained. that is what kathryn did with this boy. i wish we could have this phenomenon universally applied so that we would actually rehabilitate these children and prevent these things from happening in the future. >> larry: also the mystery of childhood, right, kathryn? >> absolutely. >> larry: and what affect we have on children and we don't even know we have. >> you can't overstate how important those early years are. >> larry: do you think, jayne, the legal system will catch up? >> i sure hope so, larry, and i'm going to keep trying to get it to do so. >> larry: becausit is -- it's still a step behind, right, in its treatment, especially in florida? >> especially in florida. and it seems that we keep having all of these kids that keep

coming up to be tried as adults because the system is just throwing them away and not knowing how or taking the time to cope and care for them. because that's what they need, caring and nurturing and learning. >> larry: alex, do you at all feel lucky? >> i feel blessed. so many people, kathy, jayne, rosie o'donnell, all those that cared about me and also took care of me, really. i feel it's a blessing from god. i don't think luck really had anything to do with it. >> also his original attorneys were amazing people. sharon wilson and james stokes, and dennis quarter. they cared so deeply and they invested so much pro bono in taking care of alex. and he also had such a bond. two of those attorneys have passed away. but sharon wilson is still doing great work in