if i decided to leave, everyone in my family would have to agree to it. i would leave no one. because we were here together, and we leave together if we have to. >> in real life, there are few perfect endings, few cut and dried conclusions. one thing i've learned during this year-long investigation, to some extent we are all living on the fence line, all of us. like the people of mossville, we are potentially exposed to dangerous chemicals. larry: tonight, can killers be reformed? what about other criminals who one day could be walking the

streets? >> come back out slicker than you were before you went in. >> the system itself rehabilitated me. >> larry: dwyane "dog" chapman was locked behind bars before the system helped them. >> i think i'm a pretty good taxpayer myself. >> larry: their message -- save lives on the inside, will help on the outside. not everyone is cheering, though. the debate over prison reform next on "larry king live." we begin with judge greg mathis. he's host of "the judge mathis show." he's a retired district court judge. he's launched a prisoner program called p.e.e.r. which encourages inmates to change their lives. how did this start?

>> well, it started on my own reflection on my own experience. many of your viewers or those who watch my show certainly know prior to becoming a lawyer and a judge, i was a street youth, a high school dropout and was in jail for nine months carrying a gun, and was able to turn my life around through education. i decided after seeing the overwhelming black population of prisoners who had left their sons in the inner cities to fend for themselves, which perpetuated crime, i wanted to intervene, because there's a 70% recidivism rate. so they go right back to prison within 18 months. so i wanted to try to break into that cycle. >> larry: and what does p.e.e.r do? >> it stands for prisoners educated for empowerment and reform. what we attempt to do is i go in and i go and speak and encourage

and inspire the prison population, also giving them direction on how to overcome obstacles and turn their lives around. so i'm trying to save lives on the inside, and then create public awareness on the outside. >> larry: you did this just in los angeles? >> no, no. we visited six prisons thus far. we rent to riekers island, we went to wayne county jail in michigan. we've gone to fulton county in atlanta. we've also hit the prison in pennsylvania. >> larry: do others work with you? >> well, i have agencies that help with the services that we discovered they have in their community. one of the good things that president bush did before leaving was enact the legislation -- well, he agreed to pass the legislation that prison reform act, or for lack of a better term, and it sent hundreds of millions of dollars into agencies around the country. so we place them and assist these agencies. >> larry: do you call prisoners in jails and prisons?

>> absolutely both, jails and prisons. >> larry: how did you not end up a criminal? >> well, unfortunately, a street youth and getting involved in the jail as a criminal, i cannot deny that. >> larry: you didn't end up one. >> how did it overcome that? >> it was education. the judge ordered me to get a ged as a condition of my release. >> larry: a high school diploma. >> right, then i left and went to college. there were no thugs in college, and then i was able to obtain a productive skill, of course, as a lawyer, and then later as a judge. but it was as a result of an education. that's why i emphasize that. >> larry: now you're giving back, trying to help young men from lives of crimes. you visit prisoners. the prison program is called prison empowerment education and respect. let's see this in action.

watch. >> i'm judge greg mathis, and we're showing larry king life behind bars here at california's notorious fulsom prison. i'm here to try to show how you can uplift yourself, how you can empower yourself. it's a lot easier coming up in the real world than it was hustling on those streets. i can tell you from experience. take that incremental success, a little at a time. don't come out and get one certificate and get whatever and think you're going to be an overnight success. you're not. come out with your road map and know it's going to take some time. and every piece of incremental success, you're going to feel good about yourself. >> larry: how does it work? lots of people visit prison and how is this different?

>> i go into the prisons with a number of programs that i can give to those who are intended to be released within the next year or two where they can leave the prison and go into their communities and obtain the type of services that they need to continue their rehabilitation and education. you know, one of the things i like about what i do is i'm focusing on rehabilitation, and it's the fiscal conservative thing to do, if you will, because -- >> larry: money. >> that's right, we spend $30,000 on average to house a prisoner for one year. and we spend approximately $12,000 a year for them to go to a major university. to bring that home, when i was a kid and was able to go to college under the affirmative action program, i had no parents. so i had to get taxpayers to pay the grants i received, just as taxpayers paid to house me for nine months in the jail. well, they paid $30,000 to house me in jail for nine months.

only $6,000 per year for me to go to college. well, four-year degree, $24,000 it cost me, taxpayers had to pay for it. and it cost $30,000 to keep me in jail for nine months. and now, of course, afterwards, i did not engage in criminal activity, victimize citizens, and i think i'm a pretty good taxpayer myself, helping to offset some of the taxes. >> larry: you talk about rehabilitate. that presumes they were once habilitated to be rehabilitated. maybe that's the wrong word. >> i believe anyone who has a right mind and retains that right mind has the ability for rehabilitation. some with mental disorders, i would not suggest they have rehabilitation if it causes them to engage in criminal activity. >> larry: how long have you been doing p.e.e.r.? >> the last year, for the last year i initiated that.

but my community center in detroit, which i've had for a number of year, we have assisted a number of ex-offenders who obtained their expungements. which is what i did. i had my record expunged after five years of good conduct after release. you can have it expunged and you can put "no" in your application if they ask if you've been convicted of a crime. >> larry: isn't one of the problems with the whole system is the prisoner upon getting out has two strikes? >> absolutely. that's why it's important they get an expungement at some point. and there are some initiatives in detroit. i work with the city council where we passed an initiative where the employers can no longer ask whether they've been convicted of a crime or not. so that's helpful in the sense when they can apply without any

obje obstacles. >> larry: this is another aspect. lots more. it's the whole program tonight, prison reform, getting out, getting better. don't go away. when i grow up, i'm going to own my own restaurant. i want to be a volunteer firefighter. i'm going to go there. [ female announcer ] at aarp we believe you're never done growing. i want to fall in love again. [ female announcer ] discover the best of what's next at aarp.org.

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basic.? preferred. okay. at meineke i have options, and 50% off brake pads and shoes. my money. my choice. my meineke. >> larry: we're back. with us is judge greg mathis. joining us is duane "dog" chapman. star of "the bounty hunt er"

going into his seventh season on a&e. he's also served time at the texas penitentiary in huntsville as accessory to murder. and an actor and author, she started the tv hit "the wire." she served six years in prison for first degree murder. dog, you are certainly proof you can turn a life around. did prison help you in any way? >> yes, sir, hi, larry. prison helped me all the way. i mean, i did not like it back in the '70s. texas was the only self-sufficient prison. that meant we had to raise our food, get up in the morning and work. and it was terrible. i did not want -- there was no crime that was fun enough to equal the punishment of prison. there just wasn't any. so, yes, prison helped me. >> larry: so the system itself rehabilitated you? >> the system itself rehabilitated me, because i hated -- you know, when i hit the texas penitentiary, i was 22 years old, and the first thing they told me is there's no

rehabilitation here, dog. you're here to be punished. and you're going to work. and for 18 months i was punished. >> larry: judge, what do you make of that? because they say punishment in and of itself doesn't work. dog says in his case, it worked. >> well, fear when punishment is involved certainly is a deterrent. but being convicted and sentenced should achieve three things. one, deterrence from crime in the future. two, punishment, and thirdly, rehabilitation, because if they come back out without rehabilitation, they're going to victimize us again. they're going to go right back into prison where taxpayers are going to continue to pay for their houses. >> larry: so dog is not atypical. >> no, he is not. >> larry: felicia, what about you? you did six years. is there any way prison helped you? >> yeah, it helped me in a lot of ways. it helped me to humble myself. i had a bad attitude when i was younger. you know, i used to think, you

know, life wasn't real, you know? and prison made me see that life is really real. you know, i started appreciating life more. yeah. >> larry: so judge, what do you make of these? they're saying prison helped them. >> absolutely. i think that prison helped them in the sense that it was a der deterrence for them. and they were punished. and i think that in some sense, they were rehabilitated, because they made a commitment not to go back. and when they came out at some point, they became productive citizens. >> larry: why doesn't everyone do that? who would want to go back? it's terrible. >> many have to return in their community to the same conditions. poverty, despair, and a failed education system. >> exactly. >> larry: snoop, how did you overcome that? if you go back into the same situation? >> when i came out from prison, i try to get -- you know, i tried to work. you know, i had two jobs.

you know, they fired me because of my background. and, you know, like the judge just said, like, society just called me and i just came back, you know, probably selling drugs or whatever, trying to make money. once you come out of prison, you know, it's like they just let you go, you know? they give you whatever you had in your bank account and they just let you go. there's nothing else after that, you know? that's what i'm trying to work on now for people that's coming out of that system into the real world that dealt with real time like 15, 20 years, you know? let them see, you know, let them see life, you know? they missed a lot of years. you can't just throw people back in the society like that. because they're going to turn around. they're going to turn around and go right back in prison. >> larry: did prison do anything -- did they ever work on reform? did they ever try to help you be better? or was it just the punishment that worked for you? >> well, no, at the very last,

larry, the guards started getting nicer and started to rehabilitate me. but in the beginning, it was nothing but punishment. and snoop is right, there's no programs. they say, larry, as long as you're in prison, it takes you that long on the streets to get back. so if you do a five-year sentence, it takes you that. and snoop is right. some of the guys that do 15, 16, 17 years, they're getting out in their 30s and they're lost. there's nowhere they can go. it's like putting a wild animal in a cage because he bit the mailman and then one day opening the cage. you know that animal is going to run again. there's got to be -- if i wasn't surrounded by the love that i had from family, i left the area completely. i moved out to a different state than when i went to prison. if i was not surrounded by that other, you know, i met people like tony robbins, martin sheen, i started, you know, just hanging around with those kinds of people. hello, judge, and i really

respect you, sir. you're a cool judge. but the judge is right, too. you've got to get out of that environment. you can't stay in there and make it. you've got to break away from that. i'm so proud to see a judge, and snoop, a judge that -- you know, and let's say, snoop, you, too, you know, we changed all of us, larry, from the ex-con to the icon. there's a judge that's been to jail. there's snoop that was a banger and she knows what's happening. you know, i feel -- this is the best tv show interview i've ever done. thank you, larry king. >> larry: let me get a break so we can pay for it. more with dog, snoop and the judge right after this. on a new cadillac cts sport sedan... ..the most acclaimed vehicle in its class and a car and driver 10 best third year in a row. summer brings out the best in all of us, so now's the perfect time to get behind the wheel of a brand new cadillac. now during cadillac's summer's best sales event... get zero percent apr financing for 72 months

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p.e.e.r. stands for pract e prisoners educated for empowerment and respect. i started this initiative to try and deliver a way out to inmates on how to empower themselves and leave prison and not return, like 70% of those who do return

within three years. the fact is the only way out is an education. >> larry: judge mathis' program is p.e.e.r., and we'll find out in a while how you can help and get involved. duane "dog" chapman and felicia "snoop" pearson is with us. snoop, you killed somebody, how do you ever get over that? >> that's something i have to live with each and every day of my life. as long as god forgive me, you know, there's nothing else more that i can say. if i can help change a few minds that's just like mine when i was younger. you know, so i don't know. i don't know, larry. i just take it one day at a time, man. >> larry: you sure did. judge, do you ever deal with prisoners who were murderers? >> yes, i try to inspire them to change their lives while they're inside. and if they are going to be released in the future, i try

and change their mindset for their release. but my focus isn't on murderers. there are a lot less heinous crimes that we can focus in on rehabilitating for prisoners, particularly nonviolent offenses. 80% of those in prison are there for drug-related crimes. either drug use, committing a crime to get drugs or sell drugs. and so that's one of the areas i focus in, particularly for african-american men who make up 62% of the prisoner population. >> larry: dog, do you think about your prison time -- hold it, snoop. dog, do you think about your prison time a lot? >> yes, sir, every day. every single day. of course, the business i'm in now, putting guys back in prison, i think about it and i remind myself how lucky i am to be, as we call it, in the free world. and, you know, i'm the same as

the judge and snoop. we had our first chance and blew it. we get no second chances. our job in life is to go after people that may be heading in the way that we are and get them in another direction. that's the only way that we can forget the crimes that we've committed is by helping others. so that's our calling. and that's what we're, pardon the pun, stuck with. but every single day, i'm never -- you know, i may forget my birth date every once in a while, but i'll never forget my prison number, never. >> larry: snoop, how were you able to come off drugs, snoop? >> i never was on drugs, larry. >> larry: oh, you just sold them? >> yeah, i just sold them. i learned from my mother. that was my example right there. because i almost died three times in the hospital, you know, and it was because of my mother was getting high. i never even tried it.

i just sold them. i know i was wrong for selling them, but i never tried them. >> larry: did you have trouble getting work when you got out of prison, snoop? how did you get a job? >> i went through a temp agency and they fired me because, you know, my background. and this is what i want to say to the judge. how you doing, judge mathis? but, you know, the programs that's in prison, you know, the same programs that help them in prison, like, i'm trying to get something in maryland, like once they get out, that program they was in in prison, it can be the same program that they can fall back into when they come to society. when they come out to society. you know? and it starts there, too. you know, like don't just stop because -- don't stop because you're in prison and then come home. you know, keep going. just keep going.

>> larry: let him comment. >> she makes a very good point and that's what they do in many cities. the second-chance act was the legislation that was passed that bush signed into law and it provided hundreds of millions of dollars for agencies around the country. those are the agencies that help ex-offenders and there are agencies as well that deter folks from becoming criminals. and one of the things we do in our community center, the mathis community center in detroit, is to prevent and to rehabilitate. >> larry: do you think society believes in second chances? >> for the most part many do. >> larry: verbalize it. great girl, snoop. >> all right, thanks. >> larry: dog will remain with us. we'll be back with sharon tate's sister and a criminal profiler next. and look for a business with the superguarantee®.

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mathis, the founder of p.e.e.r. and dog chapman. joining us now deborah tate. her sister, sharon tate, who i had the honor of interviewing, was murdered by the manson family. and pat brown, the criminal profiler and author of "the profil profiler: my life hunting serial killers and psychopaths. deborah, you're a victim, family victim of crime. how do you approach this whole system of rehabilitation? >> well, actually, larry, it's a surprise to most people, but i do believe in rehabilitation. there are sociopaths and psychopaths that need to stay behind bars forever, but there are a lot of people that don't fall into that category and we definitely need to set in place the ability to rehabilitate. >> larry: i interviewed her once

in prison. she seems like she is totally rehabilitated. would you release her? >> most sociopaths do on brief encounters, even i was privileged to find out recently that the psychological evaluations on people such as the manson family is only a one-hour interview with a psychiatrist and that is what they base everything on. you couldn't possibly know what a person is like with a brief encounter. >> larry: so you wouldn't let her out? >> absolutely not. >> larry: she's the most popular person in that prison. >> yes. >> larry: all right, pat, are the people you deal with different? >> well, yeah, i'm going to agree with the statements that if they're psychopaths, violent psychopath, not necessarily conmen, but violent psychopaths, sex predators, serial killers, serial rapists, these are the kind of people not safe back in society, and they've committed such horrendous crimes that there's no excuse to let them back in society. in other words, for the safety of society, and for punishment, they don't deserve to ever see the outside again.

and one of the problems we have sometimes with these kind of guys, when you start giving them the psychological exams and the education in prison is that they use the system so well, they're so manipulative, they'll convince you, that's my old way of thinking. now i have a new way of thinking. no, you don't. you brutally raped women. you haven't really changed that kind of mindset. >> larry: what do you think of judge mathis' program of dealing with those prisoners who don't come into that description that you just gave? >> i agree with the judge in some of the ways. i think incrementally, yes. you have to find a way to help these people move to the outside. i think they need to pay back society. i think they need to work within society. like when they come out, i think they need to pay for part of their rehabilitation so it's not just a free ride that they're getting. they're actually paying back to society and paying back the victims they took advantage of. and i have to mention the thing about expungement. i kind of disagree with that. when you expunge a record, that means you lie to society. you're telling a person to go into a job and when they ask you, did you commit a crime you

put "no" down, you're a liar. that's not a good citizen. and we have the right to know if a person has been through the system. we have that right. they should have a way to come out as well. >> larry: judge, respond. >> well, the individual isn't lying, the politicians that passed the law, elected officials in the legislature have passed the law stating that. so adhering to the law is not lying. >> if they ask you if -- if they ask if you've committed a crime and you say no, you're lying. >> excuse me, excuse me. not if the elected officials have voted -- >> larry: it's still lying. >> you're still lying. i wouldn't want to be put in a position to lie. >> larry: pat, let him finish. >> an expungement for the most part is just that. it takes it off your record so it's no longer on your record. >> larry: so you can get a better job. >> correct. and the purpose which is that. >> larry: dog, what do you think of that? >> i used to put, will discuss. you're not going to get a job, you're not going to get an apartment or nothing.

if you go in and say, yeah, i was convicted of murder, but i was just standing there and i didn't do it. they're like, see you. you try to pick up a girl and meet her father and, you know, there's a lot of things you'll have to tell a white lie about. if you're honest, okay, i was convicted but my life is changed now, i've got five babies to feed, society does not accept that, and we don't expect them to. so, you know, the judge has got -- >> larry: debra, what do you think? >> i do believe that expungement is a necessary tool in a nonviolent offender, absolutely. but society will not give them a break if they are aware of that. and the whole purpose is to get them educated and back into the work force where they can pay taxes and become normal functioning individuals. >> larry: well said. pat, if they can't get a job, they're going to be criminals again, aren't they? >> that's true. as i said, i believe an incremental approach of bringing them into society, where they come out, they do time working in -- you know, work for society, getting educated. and people record this and help

them back in by showing a good record over a period of time. i would hire somebody if i saw them go through a program like that. yes, he committed a robbery back whenever, but in the four years he's been out, he's done this program, paid back the victims. but the problem is you can't just walk out of prison, go to a job and say, i just got out. i justburg ld burgled a bunch os but i'm a safe guy. people have the right to hire people they feel safe and comfortable with. that's our right. and we have the right to know who we're dealing with. i think we should put them through an incremental system that will them get back to society in a good way. >> larry: judge? >> i don't disagree with the incremental approach. that's what i advise prisoners when i speak to them, letting them know incremental success is what they need to experience to enjoy a productive life. on the other hand, once again, returning to expungements, you have to wait five years of good behavior, no arrests or convictions before you're even eligible for that. and certainly five years is enough time to determine whether

someone has been rehabilitated enough and therefore deserving of a second chance. without obstacles. >> larry: dog, maybe you have a thought. if prison is supposed to work, why do so many people go back? >> well, the reason they go back is they cannot get a job. i don't think anyone really likes it. and when you go out with so many -- and i'm not saying you change these laws, but, have you ever been convicted? i could say like this. okay, my record was expunged, i did five years. i've been good. they're not going to give you a job. you're not going to get that. let me tell you this. the other day, i was out fishing, larry, i met three guys. two of them had done 16 years for murder one in the state of colorado and had discharged those sentences. they run a business called dog gone. they hunt down prairie dogs in colorado and they dispose of them. i mean, and the guy was as happy as could be. i looked at him and i was a little, you know, cautious, and

i'll probably see him again as i approached him. and, you know, i wouldn't give him a job either. i mean, i wouldn't give the job, and if he had said -- once he said i was convicted of murder, dog, i was like oh, god, and i was shaking his hand. all i could do was say god bless him. i agree with everyone. the severity and nature of offense. if you -- you know, if god help you, if you kill someone in a fit of rage and you don't really mean to and it's second degree murder, you may deserve a second chance. if you go in and, i'm sorry, ma'am, about your family, like the mansons who should have been executed and do horrendous murder crimes like that, they should put an end to your life right there. there's no rehabilitation. but we as a society need to work out. a lot of these people also, they got caught. there's a lot of guys that do it and don't get caught. so everybody, you know, has been in trouble and are good people. they just didn't get caught. we as a society need to help get

these people back into society. >> larry: are female prisoners different coming back than males? >> i think there's a tendency for female prisoners to be, generally speaking, less violent. so if they're going to commit crimes again, less violent crime, but they still can be very manipulative and very psychopathic. i agree. it depends on what they've done, whether they deserve that second chance and whether we can trust them with that second chance. >> larry: all right, let me get a break and we'll be right back. don't go away. [ engines revving ] [ tires screech ] [ engine revving ] [ male announcer ] before you take it on your road trip... we take it on ours. [ children laughing ] now during the summer event, get an exceptionally engineered mercedes-benz like the 2010 c-class, an iihs top safety pick, for 1.9 percent apr or lease one for $349 a month.

>> larry: debra tate, what do you think of the payback idea? that you don't just get out but you pay back victims. >> i do believe in paying back the victims. many, many years ago my mother implemented the program where we would go into the prisons and speak to very violent offenders. >> larry: explain what happened to her daughter. >> pardon? and explained what happened to her daughter. not only that, but explain how it affects the family and how many different ripples it creates in the pond. and we had people that did get out and went and devoted their entire life to serving the widow of the man that they killed. >> larry: pat, the whole situation, the return, the prison, is it getting any

better? someone once told me a psychologist said the prison system is the failure. >> well, larry, i think it's a failure because we're either too lenient or too harsh. we're confused over why people are there and what we need to do with them. we forget the victim. we never hear about the victim. to me, until you rehabilitate the victim and the victim's family, you don't deserve a second chance. and if we went that route, we could determine if you're a serial killer, you're done. if you're a robber, maybe you can come out and help the family give all the money back. show them you're a safe person in society. make everybody feel good again. you've got hope there. and put them in the kind of programs that will help them do that. but i think we have to remember the victims and not just say, let's focus on the guy giving him a chance. the victims are in therapy and paying for it themselves. the victim has lost their job because of the tragedies they've gone to. the community is terrified then a nobody does anything with them. >> larry: judge? >> i don't think we disagree on that either. restitution is a form of

financial repayment that all judges order now throughout the country. this is a new movement in foot called restore ative justice where the perpetrator or the convict meets with the family if the family so desires. so that convict can understand the destruction he or she has caused to that family. and the family can get a sense of what has happened. >> no, no, wait a minute here, joe. one of the problems with that restore tif justice is they do that in place of punishment, which is what disgusts me. they should pay their time in jail first and then have to do the restore tif if they want to go back to society. not replacement of that. >> that's not true. it's not a placement of punishment. they receive this towards the end of their service, when they're about to be released. that's not true at all, larry. >> larry: dog, do you think the prison system is a failure? >> well, you know, i think that, larry, that a prison is for violent offenders. people that are selling drugs, like the judge said, 70% is that right, judge, of the prison population is full of drug addicts and drug offenders? that's terrible. and again, we're paying

thousands of dollars a year to keep them there. i would rather have them cleaning the beaches and the parks if they're going to punish them. now, murderers, violent offenders, men that hurt women and children, women that kill other women or men, there's no chance to rehabilitate a person that has taken someone's life and liked it. that's it. they're all done. >> well said. >> larry: do you think a drug user should go to jail? >> i think that there's a possibility that they can be deprogrammed, that they could go through detox -- >> larry: in a prison? >> in a prison, yes, for a short time. i think it's important to lock them away from society so they can get clean. and then while they're getting clean, work on the psychological aspects that made them a drug user in the first place. >> you don't disagree, pat, with the drug having this p.e.e.r. system of trying to come out, do you? >> not at all. i think sometimes we're confused over who deserves it and who doesn't.

i would like to see a change in the prison system. i would like to see it not reflecting, for those who are not murderers, in my opinion, can just go break rocks. the ones who are unrepentant. but the ones in there for other kinds of crime, they shouldn't be in a system that looks just like the criminal neighborhood where they came out of. where they're lifting weights and forming gangs. they should be in a more monastery system that's more peaceful, where they change their whole mind and thinking. get more education. >> larry: judge, how do people learn more about p.e.e.r.? >> they can call or go on the internet and visit askjudgemathis.com. or they can call the mathis community center in detroit. >> larry: thank you so much. good seeing you. >> thank you so much, larry. >> larry: best of luck to you, debra. >> thank you. >> larry: he spent years at san quentin and now he's here. the man who knows everything about one of america's notorious prisons and the convict serving time there joins our panel next.

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>> larry: our next guest is a former officer at san quentin. he runs a youth intervention program called real choices. what do you make of this whole discussion and judge mathis' program of helping people when they're coming out? >> judge mathis, it's good to be able to talk with you and i commend you for your program. i would like to set a few things on the record. larry, you and i on june 6, 2006, you came out to san quentin when i had eight men that came on to your show to talk with you. those eight men represented people that were associating with white gangs, latin gangs, people that were associating with african-american gangs. all of those men were involved with the taking of human life. well, today, 3 1/2 years later, now you have five of those eight men released from the prison and

are doing well back in society again. actually, i have a program where we go out and we recruit previously incarcerated. i have over 800 that are now attending college. so rehabilitation is something that does occur. and i called it rehabilitation because we weren't born criminals. this is a product of their environment that changed their behaviors. and research has indicated, larry, that a cognitive behavioral model is the most successful model in transforming human lives. and also education is something that's critical to putting them on a pathway to becoming a part of this work force in a productive manner. >> larry: pat, you do believe in redemption, don't you? you do believe that people can change? >> it depends on whether they're not totally violent psychopaths. a lot of the violent psychopaths we have that are serial rapists and murderers, they don't have problems getting jobs. they just have problems raping

and killing people. they're the kind of people that don't need to be coming out. talking gang situations. sometimes that's almost a cultural thing, you're born into and what you see around you, what you think is the thing to do. kind of like being in a war zone. those kind of people i believe, as long as they're -- their crimes are within that segment. in other words, they're not serial killers then going out and killing women on the streets, but they're gang bang be unrepentant psychopaths. that's all i ever knew. those people i think there's hope for. the other kind, we've got to learn, as i say, segment what's worth working with and what is -- we need to keep out of society. >> we don't want them out, do we, judge? >> we shouldn't. in most cases we do not. sociopath, violent murderers and rapists, they do. >> they get out? >> yes, they do. they are sent back into our community and i'm with pat there. particularly if they have a

psychological or mental illness, they certainly should not be released back into society. but one of the things i want to make an observation is about is that going into prison has a real affect on leaving. in other words, when you go in and you're less educated, 80% have no ged or high school diploma, there were no jobs in your community, full of poverty, drugs and despair. you go in, you get no training, no education. you come back out sicker and slicker than you were before you went in and victimize the community the same way. >> duane, you agree? >> i like that. thicker and slicker. i, of course, was there. i met a kid didn't do hardly anything. when i left, he said, dog, i'll take it from here. instead of learning how to shoot the lock off, you learn thousand pick it. it's a training field for felons. >> you have seen the worse at san quentin. that's true? they come out smarter criminals?

>> i think that it depends what you do with them while inside. that's why i say you'll find research is clearly identified that when you are exposing them to a cognitive behavioral model that you're going to find that you change the way they think about themselves, their personal and community experiences. i think the judge, judge mathis struck the nail on the head. that is what our society has created is, we've created these environments with our larger cities, and now it's spread to our suburbs where we are raising people up in a dysfunction community. they have no jobs. where are all the liquor stores located in these depressed communities? so, therefore, these people resort back to drugs and alcohol abuse. often you are going to find that most of the people that are in prison are third generation or

more in their families of incarceration. their father, grandfathers are in prison. you have to break that cycle for them as society. you can't just say they don't deserve another chance. >> larry: well said. back with more after this. >> time now for the top stories. it is official, former first daughter has tied the knot with her long-term boyfriend. the wedding brought plenty of buzz took place at a 50 acre estate witnessed by friend family and of course the bride's parents, former president bill clinton and hillary clinton. the former first couple have released a statement. you know, when i grow up,

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things can get better? >> i do hope so but i think we have a problem with our court system. we have guys committing crimes who are not going prison at all and not getting rehabilitated either. it is like a little kid where you say you can't break the rule but when they do you don't have to stand in the corner. they get jaded and think the system is stupid. we see the guys with a record an arm long. we have got put them away and not just let them run wild. >> i have over 800 previously incarcerated people that i have recruited. three years later after we recruited her and is enrolled her in college, she was just accepted and graduated this june. she will be starting in august

at cal berkley. so i know we can transform them if we invest the time and effort to give these people an opportunity. dog what do you think? >> again, i'm living the life. i'm living the experience. i think larry, we filmed 200 shows with a&e and 45% of the people who have been a victim of the show or a victim of dog have got job ises. the other 60 are either still doing time or breaking the law but they have got job iss. they are surrounded by love. phillip, you need a dollar today? i got a call the other day that said dog you ruined my life of crime. no matter where i go they know who i am. i think with communities getting in there and helping these guys there is a chance. and i know that. we have got show these brothers

and is sisters that you got take that chance. it all boils down to love. if you can love that person back into being a human. he just went to prison and was next to the gates of held. if you can love him and put up with him a little bit, there is a chance for these guys. yes i do. >> how can you kbet around all the prisons and do a tv show? >> first of all, i think there is a possibility for improvement. meaning in the big front side of life, educate young people. 80% have no ged or high school diploma. before they are released, require that they have a skill or some type of education. it's cheaper and is it is more tax efficient to educate them and rehabilitate them