the fence line, all of us. like the people of mossville, we are potentially exposed to dangerous chemicals larry: tonight, can killers be reformed? what about other criminals who one day could be walking the streets? >> come back out slicker than you were before you went in. >> the system itself rehabilitated me. >> larry: dwyane "dog" chapman and greg mathis were locked behind bars before the system helped them. >> i think i'm a pretty good taxpayer myself. >> larry: their message -- save lives on the inside, preventing more crime on the outside.

not everyone is cheering, though. the debate over prison reform next on "larry king live." we begin with judge greg mathis. he's host of "the judge mathis show." he's a retired district court judge. he's launched a prisoner program called p.e.e.r. which encourages inmates to change their lives. how did this start? >> well, it started from my own reflection on my experience. many of your viewers, or those who watch my show, certainly know that prior to becoming a lawyer and a judge, i was a street youth, high school dropout, and was in jail for nine months carrying a gun, and was able to turn my life around through education and so i decided after seeing the overwhelming black population of

prisoners who had left their sons in the inner cities to fend for themselves, which perpetuated crime, i wanted to intervene, because there's a 70% recidivism rate. so they go right back to prison within 18 months. so i wanted to try to break into that cycle. >> larry: and what does p.e.e.r do? >> it stands for prisoners educated for empowerment and reform. what we attempt to do is i go in and i go and speak and encourage and inspire the prison population, also giving them direction on how to overcome obstacles and turn their lives around. so i'm trying to save lives on the inside, and then create public awareness on the outside. >> larry: you did this just in los angeles? >> no, no. we visited six prisons thus far. we rent to riekers island, we went to wayne county jail in michigan. we've gone to fulton county in atlanta. we've also hit the prison in pennsylvania.

>> larry: do others work with you? >> well, i have agencies that help with the services that we discovered they have in their community. one of the good things that president bush did before leaving was enact the legislation -- well, he agreed to pass the legislation that prison reform act, or for lack of a better term, and it sent hundreds of millions of dollars into agencies around the country. so we place them and assist these agencies. >> larry: do you call prisoners in jails and prisons? >> absolutely both, jails and prisons. >> larry: how did you not end up a criminal? >> well, unfortunately, a street youth and getting involved in the jail as a criminal, i cannot deny that. >> larry: you didn't end up one. >> how was i able to overcome that? it was education. the judge ordered me to get a ged as a condition of my

release. >> larry: a high school diploma. >> right, then i left and went to college. there were no thugs in college, and then i was able to obtain a productive skill, of course, as a lawyer, and then later as a judge. but it was as a result of an education. that's why i emphasize that. >> larry: you're a product of affirmative action, right? >> absolutely. >> larry: now you're giving back, trying to help young men from lives of crimes. you visit prisoners. the prison program is called prison empowerment education and respect. let's see this in action. watch. >> i'm judge greg mathis, and we're showing larry king life behind bars here at california's notorious fulsom prison. i'm here to try and help show how you can help lift yourself, how you can empower yourself. it's a lot easier coming up in

the real world than it was hustling on those streets. i can tell you from experience. take that incremental success, a little at a time. don't come out and get one certificate and get whatever and think you're going to be an overnight success. you're not. come out with your road map and know that it's going to take some time. and every piece of incremental success, you're going to feel good about yourself. >> larry: how does it work? lots of people visit prison and encourage prisoners. what does this do differently? >> i go into the prisons with a number of programs that i can give to those who are intended to be released within the next year or two where they can leave the prison and go into their communities and obtain the type of services that they need to continue their rehabilitation and education. you know, one of the things i like about what i do is i'm focusing on rehabilitation, and it's the fiscal conservative

thing to do, if you will, because -- >> larry: money. >> that's right, we spend $30,000 on average to house a prisoner for one year. and we spend approximately $12,000 a year for them to go to a major university. to bring that home, when i was a kid and was able to go to college under the affirmative action program, i had no parents. so i had to get taxpayers to pay the grants i received, just as taxpayers paid to house me for nine months in the jail. well, they paid $30,000 to house me in jail for nine months. only $6,000 per year for me to go to college. well, four-year degree, $24,000 it cost me, taxpayers had to pay for it. and it cost $30,000 to keep me in jail for nine months. and now, of course, afterwards, i did not engage in criminal activity, victimize citizens, and i think i'm a pretty good taxpayer myself, helping to offset some of the taxes. >> larry: you talk about rehabilitate.

that presumes they were once habilitated to be rehabilitated. >> yes. >> larry: maybe it's a wrong word. >> i believe anyone who is born with a right mind, and retains that right mind, has the ability for rehabilitation. some with mental disorders, i would not suggest they have rehabilitation if it causes them to engage in criminal activity. >> larry: how long have you been doing p.e.e.r.? >> the last year, for the last year i initiated that. but my community center in detroit, which i've had for a number of years, we have assisted for the last six years former ex-offenders, who obtain their expungements. which is what i did. i had my record expunged after five years of good conduct after release. you can have it expunged and you can actually put "no" on your application if they ask if you've been convicted of a crime.

>> larry: isn't one of the problems with the whole system is the prisoner upon getting out has two strikes? >> absolutely. that's why it's important they get an expungement at some point. and there are some initiatives in detroit. for example, i worked with the city council to pass an initiative where the employers can no longer ask whether they've been convicted of a crime or not. and so that's helpful in the sense that they can apply without any obstacles. >> larry: this is judge greg mathis, you know him from "the greg maf is show." that's the whole program tonight. prison reform. getting out, getting better. don't go away.

>> larry: with us is judge greg mathis. joining us is duane "dog" chapman. the star dog of "the bounty hunter," now going into his seventh season. he's also served time at the texas penitentiary in huntsville for accessory to murder. and felicia peerson, actor and author, she started the show's the wire." she served six years in prison

for first-degree murder. dog, you are certainly proof you can turn a life around. did prison help you in any way? >> yes, sir. hi, larry. prison helped me all the way. i mean, i did not like it back in the '70s. texas was the only self-sufficient prison. that meant we had to raise our food, get up in the morning and work. and it was terrible. i did not want -- there was no crime that was fun enough to equal the punishment of prison. there just wasn't any. so yes -- >> larry: so the system itself rehabilitated you? >> the system itself rehabilitated me, because i hated -- you know, when i hit the texas penitentiary, i was 22 years old, and the first thing they told me is there's no rehabilitation here, dog. you're here to be punished. and you're going to work. and for 18 months i was punished. >> larry: judge, what do you make of that? because they say punishment in and of itself doesn't work.

dog says in his case, it worked. >> well, fear when punishment is involved certainly is a deterrent. but being convicted and sentenced should achieve three things. one, deterrence from crime in the future. two, punishment, and thirdly, rehabilitation, because if they come back out without rehabilitation, they're going to victimize us again. they're going to go right back into prison where taxpayers are going to continue to pay for their houses. >> larry: so dog is not atypical. >> no, he is not. >> larry: felicia, what about you? you did six years. did prison at all -- is there any way prison helped you? >> yeah, it helped me in a lot of ways. it helped me to humble myself. i had a bad attitude when i was younger. you know, i used to think, you know, life wasn't real, you know? and prison made me see that life is really real. you know, i started appreciating life more. yeah.

>> larry: so judge, what do you make of this? they're saying prison helped them. >> absolutely. i think that prison helped them in the sense that it was a deterrence for them, and they were punished. and i think that in some sense, they were rehabilitated, because they made a commitment not to go back. and when they came out at some point, they became productive citizens. >> larry: why doesn't everyone do that? who would want to go back? it's terrible. >> many of them have to return in their community to the same conditions. >> exactly. >> to this despair and failing education system. >> larry: snoop, how did you overcome that, if you go back into the same situation? >> when i came out from prison, i try to get -- you know, i tried to work. you know, i had two jobs. they fired me because of my background. like the judge just said, like society just called me. and i came back, just, you know, probably selling drugs or whatever, trying to make money.

once you come out of prison, you know, it's like they just let you go, you know? they give you whatever you had in your bank account and they just let you go. there's nothing else after that, you know? that's what i'm trying to work on now for people that's coming out of that system into the real world that dealt with real time like 15, 20 years, you know? let them see, you know, let them see life, you know? they missed a lot of years. you can't just throw people back in the society like that. because they're going to turn around. they're going to turn around and go right back in prison. >> larry: did prison do anything -- did they ever work on reform? did they ever try to help you be better or was it just the punishment that worked for you? >> well, no, at the very last, larry, the guards started getting nicer and started to rehabilitate me. but in the beginning, it was nothing but punishment. and snoop is right, there's no programs.

they say, larry, as long as you're in prison, it takes you that long on the streets to get back. so if you do a five-year sentence, it takes you that. and snoop is right, some of these guys who do 15, 16, 17 years, they're getting out in their 30s, and you know, they're lost. there's nowhere they can go. it's like putting a wild animal in a cage because he bit the mailman and then one day opening the cage. you know that animal is going to run again. there's got to be -- if i wasn't surrounded by the love that i had from family, i left the area completely, i moved out to a different state than when i went to prison. if i was not surrounded by that other, you know, i met people like tony robbins, martin sheen, i started, you know, just hanging around with those kinds of people. hello, judge, and i really respect you, sir. boy, you're a cool judge. but the judge is right, too. you've got to get out of that environment. you can't stay in there and make it. you've got to break away from

that. i'm so proud to see a judge, and snoop, a judge that -- you know, and let's say, snoop, you, too, you know, we changed all of us, larry, from the ex-con to the icon. there's a judge that's been to jail. there's snoop that was a banger and she knows what's happening. you know, i feel -- this is the best tv show interview i've ever done. thank you, larry king. >> larry: let me get a break so we can pay for it. more with dog, snoop and the judge right after this.

>> p.e.e.r. stands for prisoners educated for empower. and respect. i started this initiative to try and deliver a way out to inmates on how to empower themselves and leave prison and not return, like 70% of those who do return within three years. the fact is, the only way out is an education. >> larry: judge mathis' program is p.e.e.r., and we'll find out

in a while how you can help and get involved. duane "dog" chapman and felicia "snoop" pearson is with us. snoop, you killed somebody. how do you ever get over that? >> that's something i have to live with each and every day of my life. as long as god forgive me, you know, there's nothing else more that i can say. but i can help change a few minds that was just like mine, when i was younger. you know? i don't know, larry. i just take it one day at a time, man. >> larry: you sure did. judge, do you ever deal with prisoners who were murderers? >> yes, i try to inspire them to change their lives while they're inside. and if they are going to be released in the future, i try and change their mindset for their release. but my focus isn't on murderers. there are a lot less heinous

crimes that we can focus in on rehabilitating for prisoners, particularly nonviolent offenses. 80% of those in prison are there for drug-related crimes. either drug use, committing a crime to get drugs, or selling drugs. and so that's one of the areas i focus in, particularly for african-american men who make up 62% of the prisoner population. >> larry: dog, do you think about your prison time -- hold it, snoop. dog, do you think about your prison time a lot? >> yes, sir, every day. every single day. of course, the business i'm in now, putting guys back in prison, i think about it and i remind myself how lucky i am to be, as we call it, in the free world. and, you know, i'm the same as the judge and snoop. we had our first chance and blew it. we get no second chances. our job in life is to go after people that may be heading in the way that we are and get them in another direction.

that's the only way that we can forget the crimes that we've committed is by helping others. so that's our calling. and that's what we're, pardon the pun, stuck with. but every single day, every single -- you know, i may forget my birthday every once in a while, but i'll never forget my prison number, never. >> larry: snoop, how were you able to come off drugs, snoop? >> i never was on drugs, larry. >> larry: oh, you just sold them? >> yeah, i just sold them. i learned from my mother. that was my example right there. because i almost died three types in the hospital, you know, and it was because of my mother was getting high. so, you know, like, i never even tried it. i just sold them. and i know i was wrong for selling them, but i never tried them. >> larry: did you have trouble getting work when you got out of prison, snoop? how did you get a job? >> yeah, i went through a temp

agency, and they fired me because, you know, of my background. and this is what i want to say to the judge. how you doing, judge mathis? but, you know, the programs that's in prison, you know, the same programs that help them in prison, like, i'm trying to get something in maryland, like once they get out, that program they was in in prison, it can be the same program that they can fall back into when they come to society. when they come out to society. you know? and it starts there, too. you know, like don't just stop because -- don't stop because you're in prison and then come home. you know, keep going. just keep going. you've got to help yourself first. >> larry: let him comment. >> she's making a very good point. and that's what they do in many cities. the second chance act was the legislation that was passed that

bush signed into law, and it provided hundreds of millions of dollars to agencies around the country. and those are the agencies that help ex-offenders. and there are agencies as well that deter folks from becoming criminals. and one of the things that we do in our community center, the mathis community center in detroit is to prevent and rehabilitate on that. >> larry: do you think society believes in second chances? >> for the most part, many do. they may not verbalize it. >> larry: snoop, thank you. we'll be back in touch. great girl, snoop. >> all right. thank you. >> larry: dog will remain with us, and we'll be back with sharon tate's sister and a criminal profiler, next. luxury collection crossover... ..with a bose premium sound system. and an ultra-view sunroof designed to let more summer time in. summer brings out the best in all of us, so now's the perfect time to get behind the wheel of a new cadillac. hurry in for great lease or purchase offers on an all new srx during cadillac's summer's best sales event

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>> larry: we're back with judge mathis, the founder of p.e.e.r., and dog chapman. joining us now, deborah tate. her sister, sharon tate, who i had the honor of interviewing, was murdered by the manson family. and pat brown, the criminal profiler and author of "the profiler: my life hunting serial killers and psychopaths." deborah, you're a victim, family victim of crime. how do you approach this whole system of rehabilitation? >> well, actually, larry, it's a surprise to most people, but i do believe in rehabilitation. there are sociopaths and

psychopaths that definitely -- and sexual predators -- that need to stay behind bars forever. but there are a lot of people who don't fall into that category, and we definitely need to set in place systems to rehabilitate. >> larry: one of the people who killed your sister was denied parole for the 170th time. i interviewed her once at prison. she seems like she's totally rehabilitated. would you rehabilitate you? >> most sociopaths do on brief encounters. even, i was privileged to find out recently that the psychological evaluations on people such as the manson family is only a one ow hour interview with a psychiatrist. and that is what they base everything on. you couldn't possibly know what a person is like with a brief encounter. >> larry: so you wouldn't let her out? >> no, absolutely not. >> larry: she almost is the most popular person at that prison. >> yes. >> larry: pat, are the people you deal with different? >> i'm going to agree with the

statement that if they're psychopaths, violent psychopaths and sex predators, serial killers, serial rapeists, these are people who are not safe back in society. and they created such horrendous crimes, they do deserve to see the outside again. one of the problems we have sometimes with these kind of guys, when you start giving them the psychological exams and give them the education in prison, is that they use the system so well, they're so manipulative, they'll convince you, that's my old way of thinking. now i have a new way of thinking. no, you don't. you brutally raped women. you haven't really changed that mindset. >> larry: what do you think of judge mathis' program who don't feel prisoners come into that description you just gave? >> i agree with the judge in some of the ways. i think you have to find a way to help these people move to the outside. i they they need to pay back society. i think they need to work within

society. like when they come out, i think they need to pay for part of the rehabilitation, so it's not just a free ride they're getting. they need to pay back to society and pay back the victims they took advantage of. when you expunge a record, that means you lied to society. you're telling a person to go into a job who one day ask you, did you commit a crime, you put no down, you're a liar. that's not a good citizen. we have the right to know a person has been through the system. but they have a right to come out as well. >> the individual that isn't lying, the politicians that passed the law, elected official also in the legislature passed the law stating that. so here in the law it's not lying. >> if they asked you you committed a crime, and you say no, you're lying. >> excuse me. not if the elected officials have voted such. >> you're still lying. i wouldn't want to be put in a position to lie. >> larry: pat, let him finish. >> an expungement for the most

part is just that, it takes it off your record, so it's no longer on your record. >> larry: so you get a better job. >> correct. the purpose of which is that. >> larry: dog, what do you think of that? >> well, you know, i used to put will discuss. because you're not going to get a job. you're not going to get an apartment, you're not going to get nothing. if you go in and say, yeah, i was convicted of murder but i was just standing there, i didn't do it. they're like, see you. you try to pick up a girl and meet her father and, you know, there's a lot of things you have to kind of tell a white lie about. if you're honest, okay, i was convicted but my life is changed now. i've got five babies to feed, people. society do not expect that, and we don't expect them to. so the judge has got a -- >> larry: debra, what do you think? >> i do expungement is a necessary tool in a nonviolent offender, absolutely. that society will not give them a break if they are aware of that. and the whole purpose is to get them educated and back into the

work force where they can pay taxes and become normal, functioning individuals. >> larry: well said. pat, if they can't get a job, they're going to be criminals again, won't they? >> that's true. i believe in an incremental approach where they come out, they do time working, you know, for society, getting educated and people record this and help them back in, by showing a good record over a period of time. i would hire somebody if they went through a program like that. yes, he committed a robbery back whenever. he's done all this, paid back his victims, and has been educated, i would give him a chance. but you can't just walk out of prison and go apply for a job and i just burgled a bunch of houses, but i'm a safe guy. people have a right to hire people they feel safe and comfortable with. we have the right to know who we're dealing with. put them through an incremental system. >> i don't disagree with the incremental approach. in fact, that's what i advise

prisoners when i go in and speak with them, letting them know incremental success is what they need to enjoy to lead a productive life. once again, returning to expungement, you have to wait five years with good behavior, no arrests or convictions before you're even eligible for that. certainly five years is enough time to determine whether someone has been rehabilitated enough and therefore deserving of a second chance without obstacles. >> larry: this puzzled -- dog, maybe you have a thought. if prison's supposed to work, why do so many people go back? >> well, the reason, you know, they go back is, they cannot get a job. i don't think anyone really likes it. and when you go out with so many -- i'm not saying you change these laws, but have you ever been convicted? i can say like this, okay, my record was expunged. i did five years. i've been good. they're not going to give you a job. you're not going to get that. let me tell you this, the other day i was out fishing, larry. i met three guys, who of them

had done 16 years for murder one in the state of colorado. and had discharged those sentences. they run a business today called doggone. they hunt down prairie dogs in colorado, and they dispose of them. i mean, and the guy was happy as could be. i looked at him and i was a little cautious. i'll probably see him again as i approached him. you know, i wouldn't give him a job either. i wouldn't give the guy a job. once he said i was convicted of murder, dog, and i was shaking his hand, all i could do is say god bless him. i agree with everyone. the severity and nature of offense. you know, god help you if you kill someone in a fit of rage, and you don't really mean to and it's second-degree murder, you may deserve a second chance. if you go in, and i'm sorry, ma'am, about your family. like the mansons who should have been executed and do horrendous, murders, crimes like that, they

should put an end to your life right there. there's no rehabilitation. but we as a society need to work out -- a lot of people, larry, these people got caught. there are a lot of guys who do it and don't get caught. everybody has been in trouble and are good people, they just didn't get caught. we as a society need to help these guys get back in society. >> larry: are female prisoners coming back than males? >> well, i think there's a tendency for female prisoners to be, generally speaking, less violent, so if they commit crimes again, less violent crimes. but they can still be very manipulative and psychopathic. i agree what they've done whether they deserve that second chance and whether we can trust them with that second chance. >> larry: let me get in a break and we'll be right back. don't go away.

>> larry: debra tate, what do you think of the payback idea? that you don't just get out but you pay back victims. >> i do believe in paying back the victims. many, many years ago my mother implemented a program where we would go into the prisoners and speak to very violent offenders. >> larry: explain what happened to her daughter? >> not only that, but explained how it affects the family and how many different ripples it creates in the pond. and we had people that did get out and went and devoted their

entire wife to serving the widow of the man that they killed. >> larry: pat, the whole situation, the return, the criminal, the prison, is it getting any better? someone once told me, a psychologist said the prison system is the failure. >> well, larry, i think it's a failure because we're either too lenient or too harsh. we're confused over why people are there and what we need to do with them. we forget the victim. we never hear about the victim. i think, to me, until you rehabilitate the victim and the victim's family, you don't deserve a second chance. and if we went that route, we could easily determine, if you're a serial criminal, you're done. if you're a robber, maybe you can come out and help the family give all the money back. show them you're a safe person in society. make everybody feel good again. you've got hope there. and put them in the kind of programs that will help them do that. but i think we have to remember the victims and not just say, let's focus on the guy, giving him a chance.

the victim has lost their job because of the tragedies they've gone to. the community is terrified and nobody does anything with them. >> restitution is a form of financial repayment that all judges order now throughout the country. there is a new movement afoot called restorative justice where the perpetrator or the convict meets with the family, if the family so desires, so that that convict can ups the destruction he or she has caused to that family. and the family can get a sense of what has happened. >> no, no, wait a minute here, joe. one of the problems with that restorative justice is they do that in place of punishment. they should pay their time in jail first, and then have to do the restorative, if they so want to go back in society. not a replacement of that. >> that's not true. it is not a replacement for punishment. they receive this toward the end of their service when they're about to be released.

that's not true at all, larry. >> larry: dog, do you think the prison system is a failure? >> well, you know, i think that, larry, that a prison is for violent offenders. people that are selling drugs, like the judge said, 70% is that right, judge, of the prison population is full of drug addicts and drug offenders? that's terrible. and again, we're paying thousands of dollars a year to keep them there. i would rather have them cleaning the beaches and the parks if they're going to punish them. now, murderers, violent offenders, men that hurt women and children, women that kill other women or men, there's no chance to rehabilitate a person that has taken someone's life and liked it. that's it. they're all done. >> well said. >> larry: do you think a drug user should go to jail? >> i think that there's a possibility that they can be deprogrammed, that they could go through detox -- >> larry: in a prison? >> in a prison, yes, for a short time. i think it's important to lock them away from society so they can get clean. and then while they're getting

clean, work on the psychological aspects that made them a drug user in the first place. >> larry: pat, you don't disagree, pat, with the judge having this p.e.e.r. system of trying to help people come out, do you? >> not at all. i do think that's a necessity. but i think we're confused over who does it and who doesn't. i would like to see a change in the prison system and see it not reflecting for those who are not murderers, who can just go break rocks, who are unrepentant, the others just don't go where they're going to an environment they came out of. more of a monastery system, where they change their whole mind in thinking. >> larry: how do people learn more about p.e.e.r.? >> go on the internet and visit askjudgemathis.com. or call the mathis community

center in detroit. >> larry: thanks so much. good luck to you, debra. >> thank you. >> larry: the man who knows everything about one of the most notorious prisons and the convicts serving time there, joins our panel next. dr. scholl's back pain relief orthotics with shockguard technology give you immediate relief that lasts all day long. dr. scholl's. pain relief is a step away.

>> larry: a former public information officer at san quentin. he runs a youth intervention program called real choices. what do you make of this whole discussion and judge mathis' program of helping people when they're coming out? >> judge mathis, it's good to be able to talk with you and i commend you for your program. i would like to set a few things on the record. larry, you and i on june 6, 2006, you came out to san quentin when i had eight men that came onto your show to talk with you. those eight men represented people that were associating with white gangs, latin gangs,

people that were associating with african-american gangs. all of those men were involved with the taking of human life. well, today, 3 1/2 years later, now you have five of those eight men that are then released from the prison, and are doing well back in society again. actually, i have a program where we go out and we recruit previously incarcerated. i have over 800 that are now attending college. so rehabilitation is something that does occur. and i called it rehabilitation because we weren't born criminals. this is a product of their environments that changed their behaviors. and research has indicated, larry, that a cognitive behavioral model is the most successful model in transforming life, human lives. and also education is something that's critical to putting them on a pathway to becoming a part of this work force in a productive manner.

>> larry: pat, you do believe in redemption, don't you? you do believe that people can change? >> it depends on whether they're not totally violent psychopaths. a lot of the violent psychopaths that are serial killers and serial rapeists, they just like killing people and raping people. they don't need to be coming out. now, when we talk about gang situations, that's almost a cultural thing where you're born into and what you see around you, that's what you think that's the thing to do. kind of like being in a war zone. those type of people, i believe, as long as their crimes are within that segment, not serial killers and killing women on the streets, but gang bangers or whatever they're involved in, they're living within that culture just like people in a war zone. i think if you get them out of that type of culture and give them a different kind of culture, that's somebody that's, wow, that's all i ever knew. those people there is hope for. but we've got to learn to segment what's work working with

and what we need to keep out of society. >> we don't want them out, do we, judge? >> we shouldn't. in most cases we do not. sociopath, violent murderers and rapists, they do. >> they get out? >> yes, they do. they are sent back into our community and i'm with pat there. particularly if they have a psychological or mental illness, they certainly should not be released back into society. but one of the things i want to make an observation about is, that going into prison has a real effect on leaving. in other words, when you go in and you're less educated, 80% have no ged or high school diploma, there were no jobs in your community, full of poverty, drugs and despair. you go in, you get no training, no education. you come back out sicker and slicker than you were before you went in and victimize the community the same way. >> larry: dog, wouldn't you agree with that? >> oh, i agree, thicker and slicker.

i, of course, was there. i met a kid didn't do hardly anything. when i left, he said, dog, i'll take it from here. instead of learning how to shoot the lock off, you learn how to pick it. it's a training field for felons. >> larry: ver nell -- vernell, you agree with that, they come out smarter criminals? >> i think that it depends what you do with them while inside. that's why i say you'll find research has clearly identified that when you are exposing them to a cognitive behavioral model that you're going to find that you change the way they think about themselves, their personal and community experiences. i think judge mathis struck the nail on the head. that is what our society has created is, we've created these environments within our larger cities, and now it's spread to our suburbs where we are raising people up in a dysfunctional community. they have no jobs. where are all the liquor stores in these depressed communities. so therefore, these people

resort back to drugs, and alcohol abuse. often you're going to find that most of the people that are in prison are third generation, or more, in their families of incarceration. their fathers, their grand fathers are in prison. you have to break that cycle for them as society. you can't just say they don't deserve another chance. >> larry: well said. >> larry: well said. back with more after this. when ,

>> larry: all right. we have a few moments remaining. pat, are you optimistic things can get better? >> i do hope so, but i do think we have a problem with our court system. that is where i think that we have all of these, guys committing crimes who are not going to prison at all and not getting rehabilitated either. in other words, crime after crime and probation after probation. like a little kid. you can't break that rule. you break the rule, okay, you don't have to stand in the corner. they get jaded, think the system is so stupid, think we can get away with it. guys with the record an arm long, how did they get out that many times and keep victimizing

the community. clearly we're not doing our jobs. either we've got to put them away or find a way to rehabilitate them and not just let them run wild. >> larry: vernell, are you optimistic or pessimistic? >> over 800 previously incarcerated people i recruited, a young lady living in her car with her infant child in east oakland. three years after we enrolled her in college, she was just accepted as she graduated with her aa degree this june. now accepted, and starting in august at cal berkeley. so i know that we can transform them, if we invest the time and the effort to give these people an opportunity. >> larry: well said. dog, what do you think? >> again, i'm living the life. i'm living the experience there. we've filmed 200 shows on a & e.

45% of people that have been a victim of the show, or a victim of dog have jobs. the other 60% or either still doing time or breaking the law, but they got jobs. they were humiliated on television. everyone in the neighborhood knows who they are. they're surrounded by love by the people, you know, phillip you need a dollar today? do you have a job? i got a call the other day from a guy that said, dog you ruined by life of crime. put me on tv. no matter where i go they know who i am. i think with communities getting in there and helping these guys there is a chance, and i know that. i'm a product of that chance. but we've got to show these brothers and sisters, you've got to take that chance. when someone gives it to you you've got to take it and again, it all boils down to love. if you can love that person back into being a human, he just went to prison with next to the gates of hell. if you can love him and put up with him just a little bit i think that, you know, there's a chance for these guys. yes, i do. >> larry: judge, how can you get around all these prisons and do a tv show? >> well, first of all, i think there is a possibility for

improvement. if our policymakers and our elected officials go in an enlightened direction. the front side of life, educate young people. 80%, as i said, have no ged or high school diploma. then once they're in, require, before they're released, that they have a skill, or some type of education before they're released back into society to run roughshod over us. and it's cheaper, and it's more tax-efficient to educate them than -- and rehabilitate them than to just incarcerate them. >> larry: how are you treated when you come to these prisons? >> oddly enough, i'm one of the few judges, i believe, that gets a standing ovation from prisoners. >> larry: a judge is not the most popular person in a prison. >> no, sir. >> larry: thank you all very much. vernell, great seeing you again. public information officer at san quentin. and pat brown, the book is the profiler, my life hunting serial killers and