if you'd like more information, go to sudanaction.org. home foreclosures, the highest in history. nothing good there for homeowners anywhere in our economy. unemployment claims, still going up. trade deficit with china, the highest in history. and here's the good news. if you work on wall street, listen carefully, guys, $144 billion in wall street pay, the highest ever funded by, you know, it, tax dollars and bailout checks. these guys don't even have the scene see to say thank you.

they destroy our economy, cash the checks, leave the rest of us in the lurch. mr. president, that's the record. and in two-and-a-half weeks these midterm elections are referendum on your record. you know what, you gave the banks money, and you got nothing back. no relief for homeowners, no control on pay, no consumer debt relief. nothing anywhere that was good for real people. you have got to learn to stand up to them. we'll vote for somebody who stands up and fights, even if they're not winning yet. we're not going to vote for somebody who doesn't know how to fight. kathleen? >> boy, elliot, you're kind of tough on your own president. nothing like handling the midterm election -- i'm going to be just as tough. everybody keeps talking about president obama's communication dilemma. as if he could only return to the soaring rhetoric of his campaign days. everything would be hunky dory. the jobless would have jobs, sick would have health care, and the rise of the oceans would slow. i'm afraid communication is not the president's problem. his problem is, he's disappeared. the philosopher president has

retreated to his cave and surrendered the keys to his kingdom. obama is so invisible that he hardly even makes it to the front page anymore. the cold hard truth is everything the president has done has been directed by others. just look at some of his accomplishments. first, the health care bill. he kicked it to congress, which means nancy pelosi did the heavy lifting. she fought to have health care passed, not the president. then there's afghanistan, where the generals outmaneuvered him, and on wall street, ditto. so if it's your agenda, mr. president, own it. because if you're not careful, you might find yourself in a rewrite of the "emperor's new clothes," not' naked president but an empty suit. >> i agree with some of what you're saying. it's the con seat of every politician when things don't go right, it's just communication. you want to think you're right on substance. the reality is, the president has ended up at the wrong point. >> but you can't do that if you're the president. you have to come to play. and i don't think -- i think once he got there, you know, it wasn't fun anymore. he wanted -- he loves the campaign part.

>> i agree with that. but i don't think that goes far enough. in other words -- >> well, i wasn't finished. >> keep going. >> you go ahead. >> no. i don't think it's just that he's introverted, it's just i don't think he had a strong enough belief in where he needed to end up on wall street reform or afghanistan or the economy. and as a consequence, because he was too pliable and too willing to negotiate and too willing to reach out to the other side in a desperate effort -- >> oh, my goodness. that is so wrong. he did not reach out to the other side. >> of course he did. >> no. even that article it said it was a half-hearted gesture. you talk to any of the republicans, and they will tell you, he did not actually extend himself. it was like -- it was sort of -- it was a limp handshake, okay. >> i'm not going to talk about his handshake. >> that's a metaphor, elliot. >> i didn't pick up on that. here is what i think is important for the public to understand. he went to the republican leadership and said, what kind of stimulus do you want? and they said, we want a big tax cut to be in it, and he put that in, and they still wouldn't vote for it. so he did everything. and on health care, as well. there was a decision made by the

republican leadership. we will not vote with him, we are going to a defensive posture from the beginning. his response to that should have been, fine. in that case, i'm not going to try to be bipartisan. i won, i was elected president. >> that's essentially what he did. >> the public does want health care reform. >> they didn't want -- look, they didn't want a remake of america. they wanted a tweak. >> i'm not so sure i agree with that. but i think something else intervened, which is the economy collapsed. >> yeah. kind of a big thing to intervene. >> of course it is, which is why what he should have done is say we have got to focus on that. >> that may be true, but maybe sometimes when you look weak, you are weak. >> again, i'm not going to play closet shrink. i think the guy is still going to be a great president. >> i don't blame you. >> i want him to succeed. >> i want him to succeed, too. but i just want him to do it right. >> all right. >> right. well, it's now time to bring two of the sharpest political minds into the arena. welcome to you both. hi, naomi, how are you?

we want you there, if you don't mind. may i call you john? >> you may. >> how are you? >> i'm great. >> so nice to see you here finally. naomi, i'm a big fan from a long way back. >> thank you. >> you have done a lot of fascinating things, but the thing that you're most famous for, i think, was turning or trying to turn al gore into an alpha male. is that a fair -- credit? >> i don't know where you're getting your information from. but that was the republican national committee's version. >> did they make that up? >> totally. made up. >> embrace it. >> president obama. >> geez, ask me to go there? >> you don't have to talk about his clothes. but how would you help him sort of reinvigorate his presidency? >> well, he's got a serious problem that any american president is going to have right now, which is he's not free to do what he wants to do, because of the influence of the special interests and they're on the democratic side, they're on the republican side, there is not a single president who can say to the oil lobby or the trial lawyers and the insurance companies, i'm going to ignore you.

>> can i disagree for a minute? >> please. >> because i agree with your sentiment that he has not done in many arenas what needs to be done, but i think, to say he cannot do it is to be even more cynical than i. the reality is that we could have negotiated a very different deal with wall street. we could have a very different foreign policy. we could have a very different budget right now. all it takes is -- and i'm not suggesting -- the will to stand up and say here are the priorities. i'm the president, we will do this. >> let me ask you this. i mean, i would love to believe we live in that world. we used to live in that world until recently. but let's just look at national security issues in relationship to the constitution. our obama, i voted for him, i, you know, got people to vote for him. and now i kind of bite my lip every time i read the news about what he's doing in terms of guantanamo, and justice department that upholds bush's state secret position every time there's a prisoner saying you beat me, you tortured me. >> you're jumping -- no, we'll come back to it.

>> this is the idea of what he wants to do? >> we'll come back. >> part is the we're talking about the gap between campaigning and governing and the responsibilities of governing that don't match up with ideology or let alone activist-driven politics. and that's the reality of the office. if it's done the right way, that's a position of strength. it doesn't mean the president backs a helpless giant in the white house. it means they're constrained by the responsibilities of the office to keep america safe. >> here's where i disagree. i think the president has been wrong on state secrets. i think he has been wrong in the positions he has taken in court. >> he knows he's wrong. >> he can change it -- i'm not sure -- this is the debate. >> why -- >> because he can't. >> he can't, he's a military -- >> there's no place to -- >> i don't think that it's -- look -- >> it's not that easy. >> it's not that easy. >> for him to say people are free without charge, without trial, innocent, without due process, and they have -- you know, they're -- giving them

recompense. >> they're easier -- >> that's what civilized countries are doing. and obama is a constitutional scholar. he knows the right thing. it used to be before we opened gulag. >> naomi, there has got to be a reason. >> there is a reason. the people who were tortured. i went to guantanamo last june. they would name names. >> you are overarguing your case. guantanamo is not your best case. because i happen to agree with you to a great extent about state secrets, i know that people were trying to close it, it isn't, put that aside. the better and easier example i think is the relationship between the white house and wall street. because they are -- the reason national security imperative we would all agree sometimes to the balance. there it was a simple lack of will bringing in the wrong people. and i think that is why when you say he is either absolved or you understand it because he was so constrained, it was a woeful choice. and that's why i think he now needs to stand up and say we got it wrong and we can recalibrate. what should he do differently?

>> it's easy. we see in the paper these days, wall street bonus -- enormous as they have ever been, with unemployment still in the high teens when you really count it. this is where the economy is still imbalanced between the financial sector and the creative sector. and this is a fundamental choice that he's got to make, if he's going to reclaim the hearts and souls of the american people. >> i mean, i love that. i agree with you. but what does he do about those big donors next time around? >> the president of the united states doesn't need a single donor. no, he doesn't. >> he has the bully pulpit, but it's not the same situation the senator is in or a candidate. i agree with you. we're in the same conversation in this country because the far right thinks the president is a socialist or communist, and the far left thinks he's for wall street. that's an insane situation and those are the debates we're having right now. >> and where do you come down on it? >> well, i -- >> which one of these wing nuts are you part of? >> neither. i think they're both wrong. i think the far left and the far

right can be equally insane. it's a revolutionary concept. >> we'll agree on that premise. >> but in all seriousness, one of the politics is perception, and one of the things the democratic party always needs to deal with is the perception they're somehow anti business. and i think this president, and for example, on the chamber of commerce, that's the wrong enemy. it's tough to get main street americans to look at the chamber of commerce and identify them as a shadowy special interest. that's the wrong fight. >> they do have at the influence. when i was working with the gore campaign on things like women's issues, he knew women needed better policies to take care of their kids and it was a very popular issue. families, men and women want it. he couldn't do it because of the chamber of commerce because it costs america money. >> if your argument we need to be more like europe, it is a losing argument. it just is. i don't think -- the argument the folks on the far right want to have is that president obama represents a decided shift toward socialism. >> child care is the socialism

-- >> i agree. of course it's not. >> it's a very popular initiative, but we can't get it because of the chamber of commerce and the influence they have, even though voters want it. so that's not democracy. >> what should the president say? you're the maestro who has written successful speeches. i agree. what should he say? >> i think the president needs to be -- politics is perception. what the president needs to be doing is declaring his independence in a way that is clear to the american people. because he doesn't have an executive background, hasn't been decisive enough. we are incubating a radicalism in american politics right now, where people demonize people who disagree every day. that is standard operating procedure right now. what shocked and offended me about carl paladino's comments on sunday was the fact that they were scripted. it wasn't a gaffe. it was strategy. that is a sign of the times right now. so things are going to get worse, because people are approaching politics right now as illogical blood sport. they are not interested in the politics problem solving and

that's overwhelmingly what the people want. hyper partisanship is hurting our problem. >> we have been through this before and i want desperately to be an optimist about this, as difficult as it may be. and i see this sort of flow to the extremes. on the other hand, when that happens at a certain point, most of the public snaps back to somebody in the middle. and the president could still step into that void and say, wait a minute, i'm not going to be either for wall street or be a raging populist. i'm going to be somebody who speaks common sense on this whole raft of issues, and i think he may on november 3 already wake up and say that space is still vacant and that's where he's got to gravitate. >> i agree with you. >> but elliot, can he actually break through the clutter? i see speeches that he gives, i listen, you know, where i can get through to those talking points. and he's up against a giant machine, you know, the right wing fox news, bloggers that is intent and very good at whipping up fake issues. the mosque at ground zero in order to distract attention from things like what do we do about health care, how do we take care

of returned vets, what about our nation's kids. it's hard to break through. >> one critical caveat. he still has the biggest mega phone of the world, he's the president of the united states, and he can use it with beautifully crafted words to seize once again the logic that drove him to the oval office. >> how many people cover the state of the union in its entirety anymore? >> look, we're going to have to continue this some other time. >> he hasn't been able to articulate it lately. >> i'm optimistic, because things are so dark, you've got to believe there is light at the end of the tunnel. >> true. >> naomi and john, it has been great. we will continue this. thank you so much. we'll be right back. so we're going to go ahead and get the elephant out of the room, and i'm not talking about you. but you did write about me that i am -- >> we'll get to that. don't worry. >> that i am a pleasantly wishy-washy, mostly plain vanilla republican. it's hard to see your words applied when the person is actually present, isn't it? >> it really is. >> so what are you thinking? nobody who knows me says i'm wishy-washy. >> never vanilla, let me tell you. i can vouch for that.

you have been a big supporter of president obama. do you feel betrayed by him? >> on this question, i think, yes. i do. >> yeah. >> i mean, i -- i still support him, generally speaking, because i think he is trying to do the right thing. and i think he was trying not to inflame the situation. and i think he overlearned the lesson of bill clinton.

richard was present at the creation of the modern conservative movement, a brilliant political organizer, he has gone over the heads of the media of gate keepers to connect with grass roots voters since the early 1960s. >> and at 77, he still has a lot to say about the tea party movement, the republican establishment, and even about this very program. we sat down with him a short time ago. >> welcome, richard. >> my pleasure. shocked to be here. >> yeah, well, i'm kind of -- >> after reading the article. >> we'll get to that.

>> so we're going to get the elephant out of the room, and i'm not talking about you. but you did write about me, that i am -- >> and elliot. >> we'll get to that, don't worry. >> that i am a pleasantly wishy-washy, mostly plain vanilla republican. it's hard to see your words applied when the person is actually present, isn't it? >> it really is. >> so what are you thinking? nobody who knows me says i'm wishy-washy, and certainly i'm not plain vanilla. >> never plain vanilla, i can vouch for that. >> kathleen, all due respect, in the last ten days or so, i have been watching this show, i would change vanilla to more distilled water. i've not heard you say, an ideological thought that disagrees with elliot. >> well, i'm not an ideologue, that's why. >> that was my point in the article there, that seeing -- says they play it down the middle. nobody that i know, literally no one in the republican conservative right of center community sees cnn as playing it

down the middle. we see it as, you know, left of center. >> well, they hired me to balance that out. and, you know, i have a very bad habit of being polite, because i'm southern. but i am getting rude -- i'm getting ruder by the minute, and pretty soon i'm going to take him down, okay? >> i married a southern girl. i understand that. >> here's the thing. here's what you said. and first of all, kathleen is not only not plain vanilla, she is smart, and her critiques are devastating. we'll get to that over the course of the show. >> i just would like for her to express some conservative thoughts. >> since we're both here at cnn, i have this funny thing, when you gore my ox or whatever the cliche is, i'm going defend it. you said at the top that cnn was left of center, didn't play it straight down the middle. give us some examples. because honestly, i, sitting here now as a journalist, think of this is a network that firmly believes in facts and vigorous debate, but always based on the facts and makes it clear when a statement is a statement of opinion. so give us examples.

>> well, i ran into david gergen, somebody who is known for decades and i like david, and we were talking, and david now lives at harvard, he's part of the cnn crew here. everywhere i look at cnn, i see the ruling class. and when you look at fox, you see people that you could see maybe living next door to you, you know, being a colleague at work. >> i moved here from camden, south carolina, i mean, come on. >> kathleen, how many times do you see conservatives on cnn who are articulate and will challenge an eliot spitzer? >> i have to tell you, they're hard to find, because fox has got them on payroll. >> but we're looking for you -- >> richard, once before i said this in this program. that was fun to listen to, but you didn't answer the question. give me a specific case. give me a specific case where we at cnn did not tell the facts as they were. >> no, no.

david halferson, the great writer said years ago that media bias does not come in distorting facts, lying, misrepresenting things. it comes in the selection of the news story. so when liberals look at waste, fraud and abuse, say, in the military, and they don't look at waste, fraud and abuse in the welfare program, that's media bias. so where are the articulate conservatives on here? >> we invited you. i couldn't have been happier to get you on the show. >> that's great, elliot, but that's ten minutes. you're going to be on for five hours this week. and five hours next week. but where are the articulate conservatives that will challenge you, day in -- and not just there, but all throughout cnn. >> i hear you, i hope you don't mind when i tell you you're wrong. because i think the two of us are not only open-minded on every issue, we battle and go to facts and first principles about what makes this country great, which is about markets, capitalism, democracy, tolerance. i'm no liberal, no conservative.

i believe in basic principles. >> i would also argue that most of america does fall into the center. we're not hard right or hard left. >> no. >> more people are self identifying now as independents. i'm sure you know this. than they are republican or democrat. it suggests to me they're tired of the partisan warfare and want a conversation that's civil. >> they want people who are going to speak for them. 20% gallup says they identify as liberal, 42% identify as conservative. 42. america is a center right country. and they don't see cnn as a center right network. >> so you said americans are frightened about their financial circumstances, and angry at the ruling class, such as spitzer and parker. now, here's my problem with that. nobody -- i can say nobody in the past ten years has gone after wall street and the plutocracy tougher than i did. i wanted to ask a question.

your party, defending the plutocracy, do you still believe in the deregulatory spasm that president reagan took us down? >> absolutely. the problem that we have with the economy of this country now is because of government. it's because of community development act. it's because of fannie mae, freddie mac, the federal reserve system. it's all of government, everywhere you look. government has got its fingerprints on our economic problems. >> and it wasn't the banks. >> they were part of it, absolutely part of it. but you all trace it back to the government. the government is authorizing them to do that. the wall street gets its power from government. let me make one point. t.a.r.p. was not about saving banks. it was about saving the bonuses of wall street. you and i might agree. >> we agree on that. but that's what i was fighting against. that was the banks in conjunction with government, and that was the gridlock we're trying to break. all right, your turn, kathleen. >> you see my problem, right? i have a little pause, elliot. i want to get back to a couple things.

first of all, you started in 1961 here in new york city, with william f. buckley. and i am wondering if approximate you think that today's republican party is william f. buckley's party. question number one. number two, you call yourself a reagan conservative. and yet you supported john conley in 1980. the former governor of texas. isn't that right? >> oh, wow, google is a real problem. >> exactly. >> yes. it's that texas thing, kathleen. it's a texas thing. >> all right. >> growing up in texas, i was enamoreded with conley and that was a mistake. i would the not do that again. reagan was obviously the man. >> so to buckley. >> back to buckley. the republican party is not the party that -- excuse me, the republican party is not the party that bill buckley would want today. but it's moving in that direction. the reason the republicans lost to congress, kathleen, he will the i don't, in '06, white house

in '08 had had nothing, literally nothing to do with nancy pelosi, harry reid, barack obama. it had everything to do with tom delay, karl rove, george bush, bill frisk, the big government republicans. people were furious at them. and they were not voting for the democrats so much as they were throwing the republicans out. they wanted to fire the republicans. just like the country wants to fire the democrats this year. >> well, you know, but william f. buckley tried to marginalize, for example, the john burgers, and now they're co hosting sea pack, the political action committee. >> sea pac and a homosexual group in there, too. it's a big tent -- >> some people in new york are big supporters of the tea party. and we both have been very complimentary of the grass roots. but some people would think we're on the kooky side of things. i'm not sure that's where you want to take it. >> i challenge you, kathleen, to find any large movement, and the

tea party is a very large movement, that doesn't have some people on the fringe. >> i want to go down to the nitty gritty of your proposals. and we can go back, because we were talking. you have been part of what we see as four different revolutions of the opinion party. you begin with goldwater and then get to reagan and gingrich and now the tea party. the bases of the tea party is finally, you're going to live up to what you were saying, which is you're going to cut the budget. none of the other three have done it. absolutely. >> so finally you're going to do it. the total budget is $3.8 trillion. of which only $520 billion is nondefense discretionary money. where are you going to cut? is i want -- because transportation -- i want to get this. >> i have a list of questions you might ask today. number one. let me put it in perspective. we start with the republican proposal. we go back to the spending limits of -- >> you've got to cut over a $1 trillion. there's only $500 billion in

nondiscretionary money to start with. what -- where are you going to take huge pieces -- are you going to cut medicare? >> what you're going to do is change the entitlements you have to. >> so cut medicare. >> america is not going to function in 20 or 30 years, unless somebody, democrats or republicans, conservatives and liberals, get together and figure out how we're going to get away from this entitlement society. one thing, very simple way to do it, elliot, many parts to it, but one is you change the retirement age. most people when they get to 62 now are drawing social security. you can't continue that when people are living into their 80s and 90s. that's an easy way. you tell a 20, 30, 40-year-old they have to wait another three or four years for social security, their eyes glaze over. >> that's sensible -- >> i think that's perfectly legitimate. what else? >> medicare? are you going to -- you're going oh have to take a meat axe -- because a part of your proposal is to extend the bush tax cuts in perpetuity, which is going to -- if you ask most people who know the numbers, going to increase our budget deficit by $1 trillion a year.

so you're going to have to take a meat axe to the federal budget, and you're saying no defense cuts. so it's all going to come out of social security and medicare. >> no, no. the government has grown, you know, exponentially, as we all know, in the last 15 years. and we want to ratchet government back, and we want to take power away from people in government, and give it to the individuals. and america is there, elliot. they are there. people get it. that their children are not going to have a life. >> just a question. >> when dick army was here and we had a wonderful conversation with dick army, i asked him the same question, and he came up with national endowment for the arts and national public radio. it was kind of silly. but it was meaningless. so give us -- are you going to really chop medicare in half? >> tell you why, why don't you have paul ryan on here? >> richard, this has been great. we hope you will come back to join us again. >> my pleasure. >> thanks so much. that all depends on the caliber of our candidates.

meet pamela gorman, candidate for congress in arizona iii. conservative christian, and a pretty fair shot.

now it's time for fun with politics, or in this case, gun with politics. remember harry wittington, the man vice president dick cheney shot in the face? not only did the vice president not tell anybody about it for hours, including the president, now news has just come out that cheney hasn't even apologized to the guy four years later. i mean, i just can't even imagine that. shot him. >> well, when you shoot somebody, you usually apologize? >> let me tell you, unless you mean to shoot him. come on, this is something bizarre here. >> it is a little odd. dick cheney may have started a trend, however. in a hot of political ads, if you're not packing heat, you can't compete. >> a candidate in arizona got a lot of attention when she took dead aim at her opponents. take a look. >> that all depends on the caliber of our candidates. meet pamela gorman, candidate for congress in arizona 3. conservative christian, and a pretty fair shot.

>> whew-hoo. guns for jesus. she may have lost the primary, but set tone for the election. take governor joe manchin, running for senate. remember, this is the governor. >> i'm joe manchin. i approved this ad, because i'll always defend west virginia. as your senator, i'll protect our second amendment rights. that's why the nra endorsed me. i sued epa, and i'll take dead aim at the cap and trade bill. because it's bad for west virginia. >> well, that's one way to take care of a bill that congress passes or talking about passing. i'm not so sure i like that one. let's not forget our friend dale peterson. last week we vote you his gun toeting ad. he was running for agricultural commissioner. well, he lost the primary, but made this new ad, encouraging voters to support the man who beat him, or else. you've just got to take a load of this one. >> he'll do something about

alabama losing three family farms a day. he'll look out for the people of alabama. i want all of my supporters to vote for john in the runoff on july 13th, and that dummy with his illegal campaign contributions can head on back to his chicken farm. hey, you! hey, get away from that! >> hey you! well, i guess when it comes to getting elected, it's praise jesus and pass the ammo. so we have made amazing strides, but congress is so screwed up, the republicans are too busy catering to bigots, and the democrats don't have two balls between them. let me tell you about a very important phone call i made.

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controversial bloggers writing on politics and foreign policy. andrew sullivan is also a leading advocate for gay rights, and he opposes don't ask, don't tell. andrew, welcome. >> thanks. nice to be here. >> you have been fighting these battles for a long time. >> yeah. >> are you -- does this give you hope? are you cynical? >> i'm not cynical. but i have learned not to overreact to sudden judicial announcements, because the justice department may well appeal, there will be a stay, we will see what this process is. i thought this was going to end 20 years ago. and everywhere else in the world, it has ended. one of my best buddies was one of the first men to go into afghanistan, and risked his life. for this country. the first man in afghanistan, soldier, to lose a limb was a gay man, eric alva. for me, this is about our troops. this is about -- this isn't about being gay, it's about honoring these people who are risking their lives for us. and the fact that this was

legislated by the congress in '93, and signed by clinton, that made it difficult for a commander in chief to do what truman did, which is just say no. but since he was elected, barack obama has had the power as a commander in chief to issue a stop loss order. to just say, we just are holding it, we'll have the debate, the legislation, but i am not enforcing this. and he has not done so. he has fired more gay people than any other employer in america. just because they are gay. he personally. all right? the buck stops with him. >> i not only agree with you, but at one point in my career i was the only governor in the nation to support same-sex marriage and pushed toward it very aggressively. >> thank you. >> having said that, the arc to dequote famous words, the arc of history is moving in the right direction on this. you have a ring on your left hand, got married in massachusetts. do you sense some optimism when you look at where we're headed? >> the country is there.

75% of americans want to end this ban. 80% want nondiscrimination laws and employment federally. we have suddenly just passed the 52% mark in support for marriage rights. marriage rights. and when i started arguing for this, like 20 years ago, people thought i was out of my mind. so we have made amazing strides. but our political system, the congress, is so screwed up. the republicans are too busy catering to bigots, and the democrats don't have two balls between them. and that's the problem. and i'm afraid i really thought this president would be different. but he isn't. >> there's no question that society has changed, attitudes have changed, particularly young people. the issue of somebody being gay or not is really not on their radar. but at the same time, we've lately seen some pretty awful things happening, some -- a couple of gays were tortured, two gay teen suicides. are you at all concerned in this political season that this is going to ramp up some of the

hostility that have surfaced in the last few weeks? >> i always think that fear is forever. i mean, every year when society people are afraid. and when you're a kid and you're a teenager, the last thing you want to be is different. especially with questions of hormones, boys, girls, dating. so it's always going to be rough for a gay teen. and i would like to tell them right now, as many other people have, it gets better. it will get better. and there is a future. but i do feel that the message is being sent by someone like paladino, for example, whose speech was really disgusting bigotry, demonizing gay people as basically trying to rape and abuse children. i mean, this kind of stuff -- and i do also think that when the president of the united states is firing the patriotic soldiers just for being gay, that cannot help but keep the stigma going. i want to get past it. i really -- i don't want to be thought of as gay. i want to be thought of as a human being, okay.

i don't want this to be the issue that totally defines me. it's had to, because we have had to fight for it. but we want to get past that. these guys and these women want to be soldiers. >> you have been a big supporter of president obama. do you feel betrayed by him? >> on this question, i think, yes. i do. >> yeah. >> i mean, i -- i still support him, much -- generally speaking, because i think he's trying to do the right thing. and i think he was trying not to inflame the situation. and i think he overlearned the lesson of bill clinton. >> let me ask you a tough political question. >> yeah. >> could he have been elected if he had come out for same-sex marriage? >> well -- that's a separate question. >> i'm trying to put you into the very -- you know my views on the matter. i'm trying to put you into the heart of the political dynamic. i don't know what he really believes. i take him at his word, he actually is not in favor of same-sex marriage. but some would say even if he were, he couldn't say that, because then we would have ended up with john mccain, and that would have been worse. these are the pragmatic decisions. >> i believe in the end, the

public judges the president and a man by his convictions, even if they disagree with his convictions. people came to respect reagan, even when they disagreed with him, because it was clear he had principles and he stood by them. barack obama is the only politician to have once supported same-sex marriage and then changed his mind the other way. he's the only politician i know that's been going in the opposite direction. and i like the guy. and i think he has integrity. but i think he has let us down on this. and i think -- and i think it's a shame. but i do think on the military issue, where he has actually direct responsibility, he can do it. he can stop firing gay people now. >> all right, andrew, thank you so much for being here. >> thank you, kathleen. >> interesting to talk to. we'll be right back. i hear from a lot of citizens who say, the minute someone stands up from a grass roots place isn't anointed by the insiders in washington, new york, didn't go to an ivy league university, isn't blessed by the gatekeeper s of the republicans and democrats, they're called crazy.

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it's time for our political party, a provocative conversation with fun and opinionated guests. >> we have a great guest list tonight. naomi wolf joining us again, best selling author, and john avalon, speech writer for rudy guiliani, and writer for the daily beast.com. >> and john ridley is a screen writer and commentator for npr, and andrew sullivan, celebrating his tenth anniversary as the blogger on the daily dish. one of my favorites of all-time. >> thank you, kathleen. >> your best selling book, defined by wing nuts, and how do

we get rid of the fringe, but also brilliant at identifying these fringe characters. we all know christine o'donnell. who is in the on-deck circle? who is next? >> you need to go to the minor leagues to really appreciate things where things are going. everyone gets the senate. so if you look at the house, go look at the nine co sponsors of the birther bill. there's always michelle bachmann and allen grayson, always good for entertainment. >> alan grayson is actually a smart guy. >> just because you're smart doesn't mean you're not crazy. >> he is doing good battles. >> one man's populist is another man's extremism. we've got a conservative populist movement in this country that has a lot of wing nuts attached to it, not all, certainly. but i think in the macro sense, you go to politics and get the hateriat movement we see and rise of the militias. that's when it gets -- you get off the reservation. they're not playing in minor league ball, they're outside the stadium screaming. >> i want to jump in, when we

talk about the fringe, everybody immediately jumps to the right. and that's expected. so i wanted to identify someone on the left who is fringe, who is coming up that people maybe don't know about, just to kind of, you know, balance the playing field. and by the way, it's actually a little difficult to find these individuals. not a lot of ink spilled on them. one young lady, quicha rogers, a democratic candidate, not a write-in, 22nd congressional district, texas. tom delay's old stomping ground, calling for the impeachment of president obama, not even a lot of tea partiers are going down that road. she is comparing his health care to hitler. >> of course. >> she also would like to colonize mars. let's get it done now before anybody else. but this is interesting. >> they have rare earth minerals there or something we need, absolutely.

>> before they do. this is something i had not heard before, and apparently -- i want to quote her, i don't want to get this wrong. she says the number one challenge and enemy that we are up against right now, if anyone wants to take a quick guess, imperial britain is our number one enemy. >> oh, yeah. >> the destruction of sovereign national states. >> i think she started reading history maybe 150 years ago. >> let's just say she is clearly not a kenyan anti colonialist. and i do want to point out she is a person of color. everyone is saying you can't find a black democrat who is against president obama. >> they're not all wing nuts. >> let's not discriminate. there are plenty of folks on the left who qualify for wing nut status. >> this is like what box do we create and say these people are crazy? because i've heard from a lot of citizens, i grant you there are many people out there, the left has its own share, all races and classes can come up with wing nuts, but i hear from a lot of citizens who say the minute

someone stands up from a grass roots place isn't anointed by the insiders in washington, new york, didn't go to an ivy league university, isn't blessed by the gatekeepers of the republicans and democrats, they're called crazy. and frankly, if you look at the real trouble makers, ron paul, a lot of people are saying you no he's not a lunatic on a lot of issues, but the insider establishment that we are a part of casts people like him, hurricane howard dean was called crazy. >> there are plenty of things that people can say, look, i'm sure she is for smaller government, that's fine. but it's the messages that aren't quite as polished and you see so many individuals running for safe harbors of this cable network or this blog site, because that message gets out. >> every now and again, there are objective facts we think, and you say people don't deal with objective reality, we can throw off the reservation. but then somebody says, how about galileo, you know? how do you deal with these people who come in with transformative theories that simply don't fit our objective facts and how do you integrate

them into a new world view? >> that's ones who do qualify. >> you don't demonize the people you disagree with. >> the only answer is i am impericism. you ask what the facts are, and you do your best to find out what the truth is. ask sometimes the truth is truly weird. i mean, it really is. and sometimes the truth is the truth. and so i think that's all you can do. and i think the other thing you can do is constantly ask yourself whether you are trapped in your own what they call closure. >> bubble. >> and the great thing -- one of the bad things about the blog sphere, you can get these bubbles, and if you really want to subject yourself to alternative points of view, they're there. >> thank you all so much for coming and we hope you come back and join us again. >> thank you. >> we'll be having a party like this every night on parker spitzer. we'll be right back. was that spitzer? spitzer.

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before we leave you, a postscript. last night along with the entire world, we watched the ultimate feel-good story. 33 chilean miners rescued in an unforgettable demonstration of faith and endurance. >> and they're back home now with their family and loved ones, so we're going to raise a glass and toast them. eliot? >> cheers and salute. stay tuned for "larry king."