still doing will shine a light and give them hope at some point. for two years, the bodies of black children has been found in the woods, then the rivers of atlanta, georgia. in all, more than two dozen victims, mostly stranded. by 1981 the police and fbi were hiding in the brush beside and below the river bridges. this was to be the last night, almost the last hour. >> i heard the splash. >> bob campbell, a police recruit, jumped to his feet, down beside the chattahoochee

river. >> he came to a ridge. >> i saw red lights and the car started slowly moving away from me on the bridge. >> campbell radioed the other team members up above him. >> i asked, did a car stop on the bridge? you know, i couldn't believe what i saw. and each person told me they didn't see it. >> then a policeman in a chase car, hidden on the other side, came on the radio. >> he just said the car is pulling in the parking lot here turning around in front of me. started to come back in my direction crossing the bridge. >> this is that white station wagon. police followed it and stopped it nearby. fbi agent rushed to the scene. the driver was standing by the highway. >> he was talking with the officers. saw a black male. he had on a baseball hat. glasses.

>> the young man was wayne williams, about to turn 23. a self-anointed music talent scout who slept days and roamed the city at night. he was invited over to his car. >> he got in the car and i said -- do you know why we're here? and he immediately said, yes, it's about the missing children. that stunned me and i said, what do you know about that? he said, i don't think the various news agencies are covering it adequately, do you? >> two weeks later, this headline would break the news of that night on the bridge. wayne williams would be sent to prison to serve two life sentences for murder. at first glance, he hardly looks like a serial killer. not much more than five and a half feet tall and barely, 150 pounds. now in his 50s and growing bald. >> the bottom line is, nobody ever testified of even claimed

they saw me strike another person, choke another person, stab, beat or kill or hurt anybody because i didn't. >> this is the first time wayne williams has talked on tv in at least a decade. >> why do you think you were convicted? >> fear. >> what do you mean? >> atlanta, at the time, was in a panic. they wanted any suspect they could find and, let's be honest, it had to be a black person. if it had been a white suspect, atlanta probably would have gone up in flames. it came very close to that. >> do you think you'll ever be free? >> it's not a matter of if to me, it's a matter of when. >> some 30 years after wayne williams' trial and conviction, there's still debate and some doubt. this time you can be the judge and jury. we'll lay out the evidence on both sides and you'll hear from wayne williams at length.

then we'll invite you to reach your own verdict, guilty, innocent, or a third choice, not proven. the first clue was found on a dead boy's tennis shoes. the victim was eric middlebrooks. his body left here, in a rainy y y alley. a foster child who rode his bike away one night on an errand and was dead the next morning. the officer something red stuck to his tennis shoe. >> i noticed in the flap of the edge of the shoe, this tuft of what to me, appeared to be wool. that was it. we could find no other evidence. >> back at homicide, buffington showed the fiber to his superiors. >> the lieutenant made a big joke about it and told the rest of the squad if i went over to the lieutenant's house and

cleaned out the lint trap in his dryer we could probably clear out all the cases in the city of atlanta. >> still, buffsington sent the fibers to the state crime laboratory. a young forensic strien test, larry peterson, took a look. why was a fiber stuck in the crack of a shoe -- >> it was somewhat loosely there. and people don't normally have tufts of carpet fiber loosely stuck in their shoe. >> from those thin threads, peterson would begin to build a case to catch a killer. >> how many fibers across the board, did you look at every day in this case? when the case really started getting busy, 100? 500, 1,000? >> literally, there will be hundreds if not thousands of fibers there, depending on the case. >> in the spring of 1980, nobody wanted to believe a serial killer was loose in the city, even when bob buffington spotted

a disturbing pattern. >> there had been a sharp increase in the number of children under the age of 14, who had been killed. >> when he told his boss at homicide, the major threatened to transfer him. >> and i truly think they were afraid that there would be a panic. >> it was this mother, after the loss of her 9-year-old son who finally forced police to listen, but not until almost a year after her boy died. camille bell and her children lived in these project apartments. poor to the eye, but rich in mind and spirit. joseph bell was an honor program in the gifted program in school. on a warm october sunday, in 1979, he walked away on an errand to buy snuff for an elderly lady downstairs. >> he went barefooted in a pair

of brown shorts. he got to the store, he bought the snuff. he started back home. >> less than half a block from this store, he stepped off this curb -- and vanished. >> and nobody saw anybody do anything or anything. but they did see him come back across the street and that's the last that we saw him. >> camille bell called the police. they came and said they'd write a report. that's all. days went by. camille waited with two older children and his 3-year-old sister. >> she's terrified if he can go to the store and they can steal him, then she doesn't want to leave the house. she doesn't want to do anything. >> camille hid her own fear from her children.

>> and you've got to hold them together so you can't act as scared as you are. >> the body of ucef bell was found in an abandoned schoolhouse. >> his body would not turn you have for another month. ucef bell had been strangled. >> all of what could have been, should have been and probably koosk was taken away and we'll never know now because somebody decided that it was all right to just kill a little kid because they wanted to. >> for a long time, the 3 year old would look for ucef every time it was a foggy day. >> and we'd go out into the fog and she would go as far she would into the fog and i'd say, come back here. and she would say, i got to go find my brother. the clouds came down so ucef can come down. >> the child, her mother said, had confused the fog with heaven.

still ahead, the boy that was too brave. >> he was like, man, i want to find this killer and get this reward money. >> a drive-by threat against the fbi chief's child. >> some guy in a pickup truck said, i'm going to get you nigger. >> and in the end, the curious question of the cia -- >> when you're 19 years old, you say you work for the cia, you've been recruited. >> i'll let the document speak for itself. i'm not going to comment on that. >> then, you know how to kill someone with a choke hold? that's a yes or no answer. >> no, it's not. >> yes, it is, actually. >> do you know know how to kill someone with a chokehold? >> no with it's not. ananananan] this...is the network. a living, breathing intelligence that's helping drive the future of business.

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>> in the spring of 1980, police were still reluctant to listen to camille bell. >> children were dying on the streets of atlanta in the daytime. >> among them, jeffrey mathis, only 10.

like yusef bell, he walked down the street on an errand to this gas station to buy cigarettes for his mother. she never saw him again. >> what we had here was a predator. what he was looking for was somebody who was caught off and hurt. if you don't realize you're in trouble until you're in trouble, then you have no way of getting out. >> it would be another year before jeffrey mathis' body was found in the woods, miles from home. his mother would join camille bell in forming a committee to confront the city's leaders. >> the reaction of the police was that we were overreacting and that there was no serial killer. >> own though, by now, six black children were dead. four others were missing. >> perhaps we were like,

distraught parents that really needed everyone's sympathy, but nobody needed to do anything. >> for years, it has been a dirty, little secret among the press and the police. deaths of blacks draw less attention than deaths of whites. >> nobody cared, so you could have several killings go on and if the people were poor, then no one discovered there was a serial killing. if you were black and poor, then really nobody looked, especially if you were black and poor and southern. >> police were slow to recognize these deaths were different. many of the bodies were left in the woods, far from home, unlike most murder victims who are found where they fall. >> unsolved murders of children is very rare. if a 9-year-old got killed it was somebody slapped him across the room, he hit his head and he died.

>> police did not created a task force until a year after the first murders began. fbi profiler roy hazelwood came down to help. three detectives drove him around the city and turned into jeffery mathis's neighborhood. >> as soon as we went down the street, everybody stopped. i was like, what's going on. everything is stopped. they said, laughingly, that's because we have a honky in the car. >> john glover, who took over as fbi chief in atlanta that summer said that's why he and hazelwood decided the killer had to be black. >> the killer is someone who is invisible in the black community and who is invisible in the black community than another black person. >> welcome harris was one of the first task force detectives.

he knew it had to be someone who went unnoticed. >> we felt like it was somebody who could come in the neighborhood and get these children and not draw attention to themselves. >> the question of which race struck a raw nerve. it had been only a dozen years since the murder of dr. martin luther king. on the surface, atlanta was a well-integrated city. beneath the surface, it remained separate and unequal. >> my prayer and the prayer of everybody in there was we wanted the person to be black and the reason why you wanted him to be black, i knew what it would do if it had of been a white person or somebody of another race. >> in the black community in the early '80s, a black serial killer was unheard of. all the classic serial killers were white. never black. >> didn't mean we didn't have one there.

>> today, black serial killers are not rare. in 2009, here in cleveland, as well as in milwaukee and los angeles, each time the accused serial killer turned out to be african-american. dr. eric hickey is a psychologist who keeps track of serial killers. >> overall in my study, one out of every five serial killers is african-american. in the past, since 1995, over 40% are african-american. we're finally saying, what blacks do, there's two. >> there were whites who fed the fear in atlanta. as fbi chief john glover had moved into this upper class white neighborhood, his 12-year-old son was playing outside one afternoon. >> some guy in a pickup truck was out in the yard, and our side yard, we were on a corner,

we had a corner lot. said, "i'm going to get you nigger." as he was driving by. >> kaseem reed seen in the childhood photos was only 10 when the bodies were found in the woods close to his home in the summer of 1979. >> my life did change. >> how so? >> not out as late as you used to be. not able to ride your bike unaccompanied. >> in 2010, reed would become the mayor of atlanta. but back then, as the youngest boy in the family, his teenage brothers were his protectors. >> i didn't move without my brothers for about a year. >> the bulk of the victims were boys like you. >> you're right. >> your age. >> yes. >> black boys. >> yes. >> did you personally feel afraid? >> i can't honestly say i felt afraid, except for at moments.

you would have a van slow down and everybody was very mindful of vans at the time. >> people were suspicious of everybody. and they were afraid. and the children -- you had children walking the street, cargos by and you see some of them worry in fear. >> and for good reason. the murders were about to increase to a body almost every week. in the time of trouble coming up, a creature of the night. >> then an ex-news reporter, nighttime is me, that's the time i'm out most of the time. >> and a mystery within a mystery. >> he walked to the back of the studio and he had horrible scratches on his arms. and he said he had fallen into a bush. [ marge ] psst.

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>> so many of the children who kid were poor. who earned spending money carrying groceries, running errands for others, or like lubie geter, pedaling car deodorizer outside the market. his mother worried about his going off alone. >> he said, he was a big boy. they had to catch him first. >> lubie was a good student, a sophomore in high school. a witness at the shopping center that day saw lubie with a man and helped a police artist draw this sketch. a man with a baseball cap, perhaps, a scar on his cheek. lubie never came home. >> i believe he had been kidnapped. >> police searched the woods and atlanta. they did not find lubie.

instead, police found two other bodies. young boys who had disappeared ten miles and a month apart. yet, both left here, at the same dumping ground. the number of known dead now 15. the unsolved murders of so many children had become front-page news around the nation and the world. >> this is the reward -- >> the city announced a $100,000 reward, soon to grow to half a million. the task force was swamped with sketches of suspects, none of them alike and many suggests by psychics. at the state crime lab, larry peterson was sifting through thousands of fibers. nylon, ray onray on, acountry lick, asetate. >> it was like looking for multiple needles in multiple hey staks.

and then a breakthrough. peterson said they were seeing one thing, a green carpet fiber, with a unique shape. this is a cross-section of that fiber magnified many time tools? it had two very large large lobes and one short lobes. >> the lobe are the three ends of a boomerang shape. >> he showed me a slide taken from another carpet. >> this is a single tuft from the carpet cut in a cross-section. >> i can't tell that's green. >> even putting the tiny fibers under the microscope didn't help me. >> how can you tell what color this is? in this, because of the light green, it looks very whitish. >> the colors seem microscopically is not identical to what the overall carpet would be. >> instead, an even more sophisticated microscope.

>> i'm going to open this up. >> can separate colors to identify a specific fiber. we took another look. awe, now you're talking. now peterson knew what to look for. >> when i was looking at the fiber at first i had no idea who had made it. i just knew it was very distinctive and i would recognize it instantly. >> but he didn't know where to find it. wayne williams was not yet on anyone's radar. he had freelanced as a tv cameraman who shot fires and overnight news, he told us -- >> i know the streets of atlanta. i've been around a while. being an exnews reporter, nighttime is me. that's the time i'm out most of the time. >> now, almost 23, a wannabe music producer, he was trying to form a singing group modeled after the jackson 5. in fact, the afternoon lubie geter disappeared, williams said this receipt shows he had an alibi, auditioning young singers

from 4:30 to 8:30 that evening. >> it was a small demo studio. >> kathy andrews was a part owner. >> to my best recollection, he auditioned young kids for a group that never existed. they were roughly as young as 8 and as old, for the kids, they were as old as 11 or 12. >> now, living in another state, kathy andrews did not want her face shown because of what she saw unanother day at her studio. >> at one point in time when wayne came from one of the sessions he walked into the back of the studio and he had horrible scratches on his arms. >> deep and painful, criss-crossing both arms. >> it was more this way and that way and that way and that way and that way. and they were angry looking. and when i looked at him the

first words out of my mouth was, oh, wayne, what happened. that looks awful? and he said he had fallen into a bush. >> 15-year-old terry pue died late that january, his body dropped by the roadside in a rural county 20 miles from home. he had been strangled. his mother -- >> whoever killed him he had a tussle with him because he had scratched all over him. >> it gives me chills down my spine still. >> to this day, kathy andrews does not believe wayne's explanation. >> he did not fall in a bush. it was after he realized that it was fairly obvious. and i don't know what else could have caused that kind of wound on his arm. >> the intervals between murders were shrinking, 19 days in lubie geter's disappearance until terry pue's death and then 15 days until the next victim. soon 13 and then 11 and before

long, a body a week! fbi profiler roy hazelwood says this is not unusual for serial killers. >> they come to believe that they, in fact, are almost immune to mistakes, if you will. and they can take greater risks because it's more exciting and because they're so superior they don't have to worry about the police catching them. >> after a month, lubie geter's body found in the woods, the boy left naked except scraps of underwear. the medical examiner said jeter had definitely been killed by a chokehold around a neck, a forearm across the neck. it's a question we'll have reason to ask wayne williams by the end of all of this. >> it's actually a very simple question. can you kill someone with a chokehold and when you were 19 years old -- >> you probably could under the

right circumstances. >> i know for a fact i could not. when we return -- the boy who wanted to catch a killer -- >> the body was, indeed, another victim of atlanta's child killer or killers. >> i knowed right away it was his body. i was like, oh, my good, mama. >> and later, a failed lie detector test. >> it surprised him that he didn't beat the polygraph test. he was convinced he could beat a polygraph test. ♪ [ male announcer ] every day thousands of people are switching from tylenol to advil. to learn more and get your special offer, go to takeadvil.com. take action. take advil.

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new this evening, jurors in the casey anthony murder trial wrap up day one of deliberations. they reviewed the case for nearly six hours but didn't reach a verdict. deliberations continue tomorrow morning and prosecutors insist casey anthony had the motive to kill 2-year-old caylee. but the defense argues there's no evidence of murder.

if convicted, casey could get the death penalty. >> dominique strauss-kahn slapped with new allegations of sexual assault. claims that the former achieve attacked her in 2003 and stras khan could fight new charges fighting a counterclaim for false declarations. he's facing unrelated charges of sexually abusing a hotel maid in new york city. that case is now in jeopardy over questions about the accuserer's credibility. we have a winner in this year's weiner contest. the annual nathan's hotdog eating contests polished off 62 hotdogs in 10 minutes but shockingly that was not the most hotdogs eaten today. the arch rival, crushed his record as a separate unofficial event. he got down 69 hotdogs. our special "atlanta child

murders" continues next. >> there's yet another twist in the missing and murdered children case. >> atlanta's a city of frustrations and fears. >> as the number of missing and murdered children grows. >> another victim of atlanta's child killer or killers. >> patrick baltazar was the kid who was convinced he could catch a killer. >> he was hike, man i want to find this killer and get this reward money and i'm going to buy my mom a house and do this and -- i'm going to find this killer. >> his stepmother, sheila baltazar, was worried. >> for a 10 or 11-year-old child to be talking like that, that was like, wow!

where is his mind at? >> patrick was a latch key child, living unsupervised with an older brother in a project apartment near downtown. >> he was very streetwise. >> he stayed out late at night, often at the omni center, now the headquarters of cnn. but back then, a hotel complex with an indoor skating rink and a gameroom for kids. >> that's where he spent a lot of his time at, at the games' arcade. >> wayne williams was known to frequent the omni, passing out these flyers as a talent scout to offer auditions to boys from age 11 on up. >> 15 kids are dead. two others are officially missing and listed as -- >> by early february, 1981, more than a dozen african-american boys had been found dead. many dumped in the woods around atlanta. >> i was very fearful. my, god. >> sheila baltazar pleaded to send patrick back home to the

rest of his family in rural louisiana. >> if i had somewhere to send my son i would have sent my son. >> one evening, a white man in a big car appeared to threaten patrick and a small friend. >> the little boy said that patrick said, man, that might be the killer. >> patrick used a pay phone to call the police. he told them -- a man was chasing me and my friend in a brown cadillac. >> actually, they thought it was a crank phone call and they didn't send a car out. >> this is a sketch the other boy provided to police after patrick was dead. two weeks later on february 6th, patrick stopped by the restaurant where his father worked to ask for money. then walked back toward the omni. he never made it home that night. >> i'm like, he didn't come home? oh, my god.

that was the first thing that popped in my head, missing. murdered, oh, my god! >> the atlanta missing person's bureau continued their hunt for this missing child, 11-year-old -- >> one day it seemed like it was a week, that was the longest search in the world. >> it was almost 2:00 p.m. when the may it nance man found the lifeless figure of a young black boy. >> on the seventh day a may it nance man spotted a body, tossed down in the woods, in a parking lot at a suburban office complex. the medical examiner joseph burton had to hold on to a rope to get down to the scene. >> he had a ligature mark on his neck like somebody had a ligature and they were behind you arrest off to the side behind you and they closed their hands or fists together and pulled the ligature, basically. >> in other words, killed from behind. >> most likely, yes.

>> let me place another sample on this side -- >> state crime lab scientist, larry peterson, attended the autopsy. >> i can recall one autopsy pulling a fiber off of one of the victim's -- it was green carpet and mounted the sample on the slide and looked under the myself microscope and said, it was the same one. >> you knew then? >> it became apparent the body is another victim of atlanta child killers or killer. >> local television carried these pictures live from the crime scene. >> it became apparent it was one of the three children listed as missing. >> sheila baltazar got a call from her mother. >> she said they found another body. she said i really feel like this is patrick's body here, you know.

>> if he is one of the three missing children the chances are strong he was 11-year-old patrick baltazar. >> mrs. baltazar and her husband went to the funeral home to identify their child. >> they told me he had struggled, you know, for his life. and seeing the print -- the rope print across his neck all the way around the front. >> at patrick baltazar's funeral, she would insist on an opened casket. >> i just wanted the world to see that this child could have been anybody's child. >> patrick's fifth grade

classmates wrote a poem and read it at his funeral. this, from local tv coverage that day. >> patrick baltazar, our school mate, you came to school though sometimes late, but you were never mean to anyone. you tried to help people. and thought it was fun. then one night, one terrible night, you didn't come home, not even at daylight. something's happened to that boy, the people said. patrick is missing. is patrick dead? we cried some and we bowed our heads and hope -- >> for your safety and prayers were said. oh, god, please bring back that missing boy, when he returns we will shout for joy. the police and the news people came and went, in all our hearts was no content.

no one could rest until we knew, whatever, whatever, had happened to you. then one day your body was found. out in the woods on the cold, cold ground. someone killed you and dumped you there, it was a mad, cruel person who did not care. there was not a word about how you died. it is no wonder that we all cried. patrick we miss you and wish you knew, how much your schoolmates grieve for you! just ahead -- the plan, under suspicion. >> it was an entire family of brothers that were involved in the clan. >> and then -- a disappearing nylon cord. >> it could have been murder weapon as far as i knew.

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"not tonight, britta. not tonight." ♪ >> in february, 1981, a troublesome tip reached the police. a man involved in the klu klux klan could be atlanta's serial killer. >> atlanta was about to explode and here was information, potentially, that the clan could have been doing this. >> bob ingram, with the gbi, georgia's bureau of investigation, got the case. >> it was an entire family of brothers that were involved in the clan that were the focus of

this particular intelligence information. >> and informant said that one brother had threatened lubie geter, the child found dead only weeks before. the clan associate lived here on a dead-end street in the railroad town of mountain view on the outskirts of atlanta. >> we're tapping telephones and we heard a lot of rhetoric. we heard a lot of racial slurs. >> on one wiretap, the detectives heard this said -- go find you another little kid? the gbi followed the four brothers for almost two months. >> these family members were under surveillance at the time, physical surveillance, where we had an eyeball on them. >> in those two months, six more black youths would disappear and die. detectives saw nothing to lij the clan to them. >> if somebody was in in with a van or two or three men, you

know, to grab somebody and dump them in the back of a van, people would have noticed if they were white. >> the brothers were called in. they took lie detector tests and passed. >> they were polygraph and cleared as to their involvement in the killing of atlanta's children. >> clearing the clan didn't stop the murders. joe joe bell was one of the victims that vanished during the time. he used to hang out at this seafood carrier place. >> he'd come in and do anything, i'd give him $1, long enough to get money to the to go to the show or buy something at the store. >> joe joe bell, unrelated to yusef bell, came by one last time. >> about 3:30 or 4:00 on monday, he came by and stuck his head in the door and said, richard i'm going to shoot basketball. i'll see you later.

throwed his hand up and went on up the street. >> to a schoolyard basketball court like this. this witness, eugeneless we are knew joe joe and saw him leave the game. he said he left in a station wagon that looked like this. he testified he got in the car, got in wayne's car. >> in court, he would identify wayne williams as the driver. >> lugene lester, an eyewitness, said you gave a ride to joe joe bell in your station wagon. >> okay. >> did you? >> no, i did not. >> you never gave him a ride? >> no, i did not. >> williams did not deny he was the driver. he, instead, insisted his passenger had to be someone else. joe joe bell was never to be seen again. >> the horrendous if another child dies, period.

>> a week later, sammy davis jr. and frank sinatra came to atlanta for a concert to benefit the children. the photographer up on stage, that's wayne's father, homer williams, with the black newspaper, "atlanta world." >> how come you don't got no tux on. >> that's the future mayor, kasim reed. >> i remember that. so cool meeting frank sinatra. >> as a young child, reed would help the volunteers searching atlanta's woods every saturday. >> we literally would walk through wooded areas, chaperoned, and we would walk for a period of time until about an hour before nightfall. >> but now, a new twist in the murders. patrick baltazar, the 20th

victim, would be the last child to turn up in a wooded area. a day or two later, an official would tell reporters that fibers and dog hairs were being collected from the victim's clothing. the next child to die would be found in a river, wearing nothing but underpants. fewer clues now for larry peterson. >> we're talking maybe a dozen or dozens of fibers as opposed to hundreds or potentially thousands of fibers. >> the 13-year-old victim was found beneath this bridge over the south river, in atlanta's suburbs. a driver crossing that bridge earlier in the week saw a man leaning over the railing. it turned out to be the same afternoon joe joe bell disappeared. at the trial, the witness said the man was wayne williams. joe. 's body was not found until ten days, floated far down the

river, almost into another county. >> he also had nothing on but underwear, basically. >> medical examiner, joseph burton, went out in a boat to retrieve to boy. >> the body wrapped in a sheet. i'm the one with the shirt off. >> dr. burton ruled both boys had been asphyxiated. >> we had no history of either one of those boys swimming in the south river in their underwear. >> other bodies were washing up in the chattahoochee river, to the west and north of atlanta. five victims in the river in the next six weeks. >> i said, you know, if i was doing that i would be throwing them off the bridge. >> fbi agent, he grew up on a river in tennessee and he knew if something, to float downstream it had to be dropped in the middle of a river. he suggested the bridge stakeout. >> he looked at remote places,

dark places. we believed it would be at nighttime as opposed to daytime. >> the fbi and police began night watches at 14 bridges over the chattahoochee and south rivers. stakeouts were to last four weeks. nothing until the very end. >> we, at that point, were ready for that to be our last night. and wayne williams showed up that night. >> just before 3:00 a.m., the station what again drove on to the bridge. >> he waited a couple more hours. we might not have been there. >> otherwise we would have missed him. >> next -- the night on the bridge. >> you said, i know this is about those boys, isn't it? >> correct. that's what i said. >> pretty damning statement, don't you think?

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>> that night on the bridge,

wayne williams says police made him the scape goat because he was black. >> soledad, when this case happened, if those miss had arrested a white man, atlanta would have erupted, as well as several major citieses. you possibly would have had another race war. >> no, said the fbi chief. >> atlanta police department side, they were looking for a white guy. so why would all of a sudden a black guy be considered a scapegoat? >> williams disputes almost everything police witnesses said about that night. >> what happened that night on the bridge? >> okay. in the first place, and i'm not being facetious, nothing happened on splash. he never stopped and didn't turn around. so you never stopped on the bridge? >> no, i didn't. >> you didn't throw trash? >> no. >> you didn't throw anything? >> no, i did not.