here in this country? how many jobs would that create? i mean there are so many things we haven't cover here tonight that i would love to >> piers: the hour has flown by, we got to unfortunately end it there, a fascinating hour, thank you to my audience, you have been terrific. >> we can fix this we can fix this and i want to encourage people at home, people at home to get involved in your or occupy mom. s locally, doug this don't wait for someone else to do it, it is in your hands your town, stand up, go to the local bank of america or chase bank, whatever, form your own mom. . thank you, piers, you be there with them. america's got talent. come on. >> piers: thank you very much. hey, good evening, everyone it is 10 p.m. here on the east coast. we begin tonight keeping them honest. with presidential candidate rick perry is all of a sudden playing coy about where president obama was born, flirting with birtherism. playing games with something we

thought was finally, mercifully put to rest months ago. it began over the weekend in "parade" magazine. here is the part of the interview that got people talking. when asked, governor, do you believe that president barack obama was born in the united states? governor perry says, quote, i have no reason to think otherwise. the interviewer points out that's not a definitive yes, the governor says, well, i don't have a definitive answer because he's never seen my birth certificate. the interviewer points out this is an odd answer, but you -- you've seen his. which governor perry reports, i don't know. have i? you don't believe what's been released? i don't know. i had dinner with donald trump the other night. the governor said, and i quote, i don't have any idea. it doesn't matter. he's the president of the united states. he's elected. it's a distractive issue. keeping them honest, if it's such a distractive issue to use governor perry's own words, then why bring it up? here's how he answered.

>> i said it's a good issue to keep alive. donald has got to have some fun. >> it sounds like you really do have some doubt about it. >> i haven't seen his -- i haven't seen his grades. my grades ended up on the front page of the newspaper. so if we're going to show stuff, let's show stuff. but that's all a distraction. i mean, i get it. i'm really not worried about the president's birth certificate. it's fun to poke at him a little bit and say, hey, how about, let's see your grades and your birth certificate. >> so he says he's doing it to have a little fun but it doesn't really matter, but hey why not stir a little insinuation into the mix such as the president's grades. the suggestion in a nutshell weren't good enough for him to get into columbia law school or harvard where his classmates elected him head of the law review. we do know that he graduated from harvard with high honors in the top 10% of his class. late today, perry was asked again, this time by cnn's jim

acosta, what he really believes and again governor perry did not provide a definitive answer. >> i'm just curious, what will it take to convince you that the president was born in this country and do you have any plans for -- >> i'll cut you off right there. that is one of the biggest distractions that there is going. we need to be talking about jobs. somebody want to see my birth certificate, i'd be happy to show it to them. but the fact is that is a distraction. >> keeping them honest, it's a distraction that the governor himself revived with no basis in fact, none. campaign initially put out this short form certification of live birth, exact same document anyone in hawaii gets and can be used to get a driver's license and passport. donald trump claimed he had sent detectives to hawaii to investigate. no one ever found any evidence he actually did. we did, however, send gary tuchman to look into the trump claims and find the facts. he spoke to people at hawaii's health department, including a former director who had inspected the original long form birth certificate.

>> has anyone else looked at the certificate? >> the registrar has seen it as well. alvin onaka, he's the chief registrar for the state. he's the one that took me to see the documents. >> you are a registered republican? >> at the present time, yes. >> and work for a republican governor? >> yes, i did. >> and you still say that the birth certificate of this democratic president is authentic? >> absolutely. >> so gary found nothing unusual, no sign of conspiracy, no sign either of trump's so-called investigators. in fact, no evidence of anything, absolutely anything out of the ordinary about president obama's birth records. finally, earlier this year, in an effort to end the saga for once and for all, the white house made a special request and obtained a copy of the long form birth certificate. and that seemed to work. but trump raising doubts again, and inexplicably flirting with trump's birtherism. >> you associate yourself with a nutty guy like that and you damage yourself.

i know he's trying to cultivate all of donald trump trying to get his endorsement, but this is not the way to go about doing it because it starts to marginalize you in the minds of some you need to get the election. >> polling appears to bear him out. donald trump is not a kingmaker, just the opposite, in fact. according to a recent fox news survey, just 6% say a trump endorsement would make them more likely to support a candidate. 62% said it would make no difference. a sharp warning tonight from jeb bush telling "the washington post" jennifer rubin, quote, republican candidates should categorically reject the notion that president obama was not born in the united states. it's a complete distraction from the failed economic policies of the president. joining us right now ari fleischer, now on twitter @arifleischer and pollster for the obama campaign, cornell belcher. what does it say about governor perry and his campaign that he's tipping his hat to a repeatedly disproven conspiracy theory? >> it tells me if he really wants to do well and run for

presidency, he needs to up his game and focus more on the issue that counts, the economy. today is an important day for governor perry. he announced the new flat tax, but he's taking attention away from his own idea, this foolish issue about where barack obama was born. anderson, it's a waste of time. he's an american, he's our president. let's get on with the issues. >> in a way, cornell, does this help president obama with independents if such a high-profile republican contender is attempting to play to the fringe of his party on this made-up issue? >> well, look, no, it doesn't help president obama very much at all because, frankly -- because frankly, we'd rather be talking about his tax plan today than talking about the birther issue because i think that's an area where i think we can go after him on. i think the birther issue, look, there's a certain percentage of their base who want to delegitimize the president. however, i'm going to agree with ari at this point. that's not going to get him back in this race.

just as a political professional, not as a democrat or republican, it's as painful to see him shoot himself in the foot time and time again when he came into this race with such fanfare and people thought he would challenge mitt romney. right now, he's in single digits. you see why he's in single digits. he needs to run a much better campaign if he's going to challenge mitt romney, oh, and i'm sorry, herman cain for this nomination. >> anderson, there's a deeper issue here, too, and that's for too long in american politics -- and i saw it from the other end -- people try to delegitimize their foes. it's one thing if you oppose somebody on policy, another thing to say that they're a liar or that they're illegitimate, they did not win the election or that he's not an american citizen. this is destructive to the body politic. we should be able to clash on ideology, clash on issues, but don't question the other person's motive or legitimacy. i didn't like it when people did it to george bush and i don't like it when people do to barack obama. i want to beat him on ideology and issues, not things like this.

>> let's stop talking about the whole birther thing. even repeating the whole kind of history of it is just -- we're so beyond it, it feels like. but interesting that it's suddenly back now with rick perry. i do want to turn to rick perry's tax plan that he announced today. the flat tax is not a new concept. steve forbes, who endorsed rick perry, has been talking about it for years. what do we need to know about it? what should people know? >> what you need to know when you look at the plan today is what you don't know because that's what all the tax policy people here in washington have been asking all day long. what do they know about this? the fundamental claim of the governor is that it will lower taxes for everyone. listen. >> families in the middle and on the lower end of the economic scale will have the opportunity to get ahead. you know, taxes will be cut across all income groups in america. >> that's a big, big claim, anderson. let's look at some of the facts here.

certainly, under his plan, it looks like there would be lower taxes for wealthier people, lower corporate tax rates for companies, no tax on dividends or capital gains, no inheritance tax. they tend to favor people who have a lot of money. they are the ones who benefit from those things. what about everybody else? that's a different matter. he's talking about a 12,500 exemption before you pay taxes. that's higher than we currently have. so you can argue that's better for people at the lower end of the spectrum. two parents and one child, they easily go over $36,000 before they start paying income tax. then he talked about a 20% flat rate over that. the problem here -- when i say the part we don't know, for all of the 95% we know here, the 5% could have tremendous details and that could make a big difference. what kind of breaks do people lose at the lower end of the scale? things like the earned income tax credit. do they still get credit for that in the long run? there are many, many details left in this.

bottom line is when we judge this one, is this really a case of it being at best true but incomplete, big emphasis on the incomplete, anderson. >> tom, thanks very much. back with the panel, cornell belcher and ari fleischer. ari, is this plan a strong move by governor perry? >> it is and here's why. what you're seeing on the republican side from perry and cain and to a lesser degree, mitt romney, is a desire to fundamentally change how washington is doing its business, to throw out the existing tax code which doesn't work, full of loopholes and anti-growth and replace it with something that encouraging economic growth to lift everybody up. it breaks from the stale debate we had in the '80s and '90s over should you get this distribution or that distribution and focuses instead on how does the country grow with a tax code that encourages entrepreneurialship and job creation. that's a fresh debate to be in. that's what i like about the republican proposals. as for the ideas what about the specifics, et cetera, we know that those get ironed out

whoever the new president is with a republican congress. that's when you pay attention to the details. this is a directional move and the direction is a fundamentally new tax code. >> and cornell, how do democrats respond to that? because whether cain's plan or perry's plan, both on the appeal as being simple and offering this sweeping change. >> this is what we'd rather be talking about, because it is fundamentally wrong on the economics, but it is also wrong when you look at the values of it. at a time when middle-class america is shrinking, and a time where this country was built on the ideals of shared responsibility, shared sacrifice, what the republicans are saying is let's move our responsibility and accountability from the wealthiest americans and place it squarely on the backs of middle class. you see public polling where 70% of americans are saying let's raise taxes on the middle class, republicans are saying, no, let's not raise taxes on the middle class. let's lower their taxes. that's a place where democrats want the battle to be.

>> ari, how do you respond to that? >> well, the purpose of the tax code should be to raise the revenue so the government can pay its bills. where we've gotten off track is the tax code has become so riddled with redistributionist programs and sacred cows that everyone is scratching each other's back and the country is broken with debt. we need a new tax code that gets rid of the muddle and focuses on helping people to make money and get a job and have economic growth. we're so far off that track. i remember when bill clinton ran in 1992. he ran on a middle class tax cut. never defined it. he ran on end welfare as we know it. never said how. and established him as a different kind of democrat without defining those policies. what you're hearing in this year's debate is that republicans are really the party of fundamental change and president obama is the one who really is defending the status quo that brought us the current economy and the tax mess that we have. that's a great debate to be in.

>> interesting, you're basically, cornell, he's basically using, it seems flip, of what the last election was saying this is a change election but the change now favors the republican. >> and i love it. i think it's going to be a really hard sell for republicans to explain to americans how, in fact, doubling down on the policies that got us in this mess, cutting away regulations on big corporations, gutting environmental protection agencies, how these policies, cutting taxes even further for the wealthiest, the same time the middle class wants taxes raised for rich people, how these policies of the bush era in fact represent change. i got to tell you, this is a debate we relish having because it doesn't represent change at all. it's what got us in this mess in the first place. >> there's a new poll showing cain over mitt romney, rick perry has dropped to fifth place. national polls doesn't tell us

about a race that could hinge on early states. but i want to play for viewers who haven't seen it, this rather interesting herman cain web video that a lot of people are talking about. the man you see on it is his chief of staff. take a look. >> i really believe that herman cain will put united back in the united states of america. and if i didn't believe that i wouldn't be here. we've run a campaign like nobody's ever seen. but then america's never seen a candidate like herman cain. ♪ i am america ♪ one voice united we stand ♪ i am america >> what do you make of that, cornell? >> best ad ever. best ad ever. >> was that a mistake? >> i got to feel that ari and i are going to be in complete agreement on this one. that ad, that ad tells me this, it tells me the herman cain campaign doesn't have any real

infrastructure, because there's no way that campaign got green-lighted as it went up the process. there's no way a real campaign green lights that ad. look, nothing plays better to the hearts and minds of america than some weird guy smoking cigarettes directly on camera. it is unbelievably bad. and you have a hard time taking herman cain seriously at this point. at some point, he's got to turn the corner and hire real professional people because he's leading in the polls. >> ari, what do you make of the ad? he told me the other week he was hiring staffers. have we seen them yet? >> i asked the herman cain infrastructure about that today. they told me their goal is to redefine politics. those are their words. this ad is certainly not conventional. this is someone with a total outsider perspective would do. >> the smoking, do you think it's an accident -- >> i want to hear what other people think. it doesn't have to be the way it's always been in washington. but this is also not an ad. as you pointed out, this is on

the web. they haven't spent a penny on real advertising and they've got everybody talking about this. it reinforces he's different, he's the outsider. he's got to take that and build on it. i'll give him credit for this. it's a weird ad, but i'll give him credit. >> i spent a lot of time in editing rooms. i wonder if that was a mistake leaving the shot of the smoking in, if no one double-checked it. >> what is he smiling at? this country is chock-full of suckers because a couple months ago, i was selling pizzas, now i'm running for the nomination for the republican party. i want to ask ari a serious question, does the rnc see that ad and think this is a guy we need to invest in and give money to? >> the republican establishment has very little idea what to do with herman cain. he has everyone scratching their head saying how real is he. he has to prove if he's real or not. he does have a chance.

what this ad does reinforce is he will stand up to political correctness. that does resonate in republican circles. we need a sense of somebody who is blunt and tells it straight and is not politically correct. that's why cain has done as well as he has done up to date. people standing outside of buildings. you know when you walk in an office building and it smell of cigarettes because everyone is outside smoking. >> i'm going to have a smoke. >> thanks very much. let us know what you think -- we don't encourage that sort of thing on this program. i'll be tweeting tonight. up next, president obama's plan to help out homeowners. what about the big batch of promises made? we're keeping them honest. where there is hope, there is life. we'll show you a little girl's rescue after days in the rubble of turkey's killer earthquake. later, another tragic death. was it linked to a book that advocates harshly punishing children in the name of god?

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keeping them honest tonight, a new plan that claims to help millions of home owners hurt in the housing meltdown. the obama administration announces a federal rule changes allowing people whose homes are wort less than their mortgages to refinance as long as they have a good record making payments already. the estimated savings will be about $2,500 a year. turns out, the plan only affects a small percentage of homeowners in need of help and leaves out 3.5 million who are behind on their mortgage payments. it is merely the latest in a long line of program, ten so far, that have not lived up to their promises. not even close. here's president obama two years ago. >> through this plan, we will help between 7 million and 9 million families restructure or refinance their mortgages so they can afford -- avoid foreclosure. >> that was the promise back then. since then, the administration's fallen far, far short of that goal. we did some checking with the treasury department on the two biggest programs. instead of between 7 and 9 million, the actual figure of families who qualified for assistance is 1.6 million. there are many reasons homeowners complain about banks

giving them the runaround. critics say the entire mortgage relief program was set up to favor banks over homeowners. whatever the reason, millions have not gotten the help they say they need. according to "the washington post," out of the $50 billion the obama administration said it would use to help homeowners, only 2.4 million has actually been spent. chief white house correspondent jessica yellin on what's in this new plan and chief business correspondent ali velshi. jessica, what's in this new plan? >> the new plan targets homeowners who are considered current on their payments, but their home values have plummeted so much they're under water. it lets them refinance so they can take advantage of our historically low interest rates with no credit check, no add-on fees and hassle of an appraisal. and they're considered current if they have only missed one payment in the last year. one thing i'd note, the homeowners most affected are in

states where the bottom has fallen out of the housing market, nevada, arizona, florida, which also happen to be key states the president is targeting to win in 2012. >> i mean, if some are saying this new plan won't actually help the housing market all that much, why is the white house doing it? you're saying politics is behind it? >> well, there is a large part of this that is politics because these are the states the president does have to win in 2012. there's also the larger message that is the vision thing, as george h.w. bush, the other president, used to say. right now, the president is focused on convincing the voters that he has a positive plan for the future to get out of our economic mess. as you pointed out, to date, first of all, housing is a key component of that. and to date, his housing proposals have been a bit anemic. he does need to roll out some housing proposals that can work. he can do this without congress.

but to be fair to the administration as well, fannie and freddie don't report to the administration. that's who oversees this nor do the banks. it has taken them a while, fannie and freddie, to agree to these rules and taken the economy getting worse and worse and worse for all the parties to come together to agree to this as well. >> ali, is that why it took so long? fannie and freddie not agreeing to the rules? >> and the banks. jessica points it out that the banks don't report to the administration, nor does fannie and freddie. if they'd been smart about this, the banks themselves more than 2 1/2 years ago before we heard that clip from president obama would are said, let's do everything we can to keep these people in their homes because the alternative is they're out of their homes and we're stuck with this inventory of houses with prices continuing to go down. that's the situation that banks are in. the administration when president obama said 7 to 9 million families, and even back then we weren't certain that was really true, the banks just didn't take up the offer. they didn't say, let's refinance.

they were fearful that if they did and homeowners didn't pay back, they'd have to buy those loans back from fannie and freddie. that's the difference with this plan. they don't have to do that. but still the numbers, 11 million people are underwater which means they have a mortgage bigger than the value of their house. 3.5 million are three months or longer into foreclosure. 900,000 and maybe 1.6 million. it won't solve the problem. but all we can do is tinker around the edges. >> for those people are there guarantees this is going to work? >> if you keep paying. so this is for people who, generally speaking, still have their jobs, who have made payments over the last 12 months. if you do that, that's a deal. if you're in position to take advantage of this, this is an excellent deal. it takes that much inventory off the market or prevents inventory from being on the market which helps all of us who either had homes or are looking to sell homes. doesn't help if you're a home buyer. it could help but only around

the edges. this is up to the banks. >> is this it? are there going to be more mortgage relief plans from the white house? >> according to my sources, they're working on a plan that will take a huge -- i mean, massive -- number of foreclosed houses off the market which would clearly have much broader implications for the housing market but that's still in the works. >> thanks so much. still ahead, moammar gadhafi is buried, finally, but where? the latest in the gravesite and libya's new leaders. and the survivors of turkey's devastating earthquake. also, a follow-up on ungodly discipline. fundamentalist parents punishing their children so severely it actually kills them. yet another tragic death. >> can you tell us what happened to your daughter? what do you think god thinks about this case, sir? etter futu. since ameriprise financial was founded back in 1894, they've been committed to putting clients first.

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in turkey tonight, rescuers are working around the clock in the search for survivors of sunday's devastating earthquake. more than 450 people were killed, 1,300 injured in a 7.2 quake that demolished the eastern part of the country. nearly 2,300 buildings that stood on sunday morning are now rubble. among them, a health services building, part of a hospital. even now there are aftershocks that are rattling the region. it's one of the poorest regions in turkey. some survivors are too scared to return to their homes. a lot are sleeping on the streets tonight, despite near freezing temperatures. today, a bright spot in all the misery, a dramatic rescue that's given new hope to all those praying for the survival of their own loved ones. >> reporter: applause erupts as one of the youngest victims of the earthquake in turkey is finally delivered to safety. baby ezra is just 14 days old and she spent two of her 14 days trapped in the ruins of her

family's apartment building. born premature, rescue workers hold an oxygen mask over her tiny face to ease her breathing. this is the man who pulled her from the brink of death. >> translator: it's an extraordinary feeling. i've been doing this job for 12 years and it's the first time i've ever taken a living person out. >> reporter: beyond extraordinary strength for a child so young, ezra survived because of the heroism of her mother who was trapped alive with her daughter and ezra's grandmother. her mother was clutching her to her chest when rescuers cleared a path through the rubble to the little girl. >> translator: the mother put her into my hands. and when we told her the baby was taken to the hospital by ambulance, she was even happier. >> reporter: ezra, whose name means purity in arabic, has started her young life overcoming amazing odds. her rescue gives hope to turkey and people around the world, praying that their loved ones will also be saved.

>> diana joins us from turkey. ezra was rescued earlier today. do we know where she is? >> she was flown to ankara with her mother. and they're apparently doing well. we spoke to the mother's brother, the uncle. the baby's doing well, she's doing well. it all seems to be good for a baby who was born three weeks premature and just survived an earthquake. >> her mother actually handed her to rescue workers while she was still trapped, right? >> exactly. basically, they managed to tunnel a route through to the mother and the grandmother. apparently the grandmother was lying on top of the mother because of the way that the rubble collapsed. they had to send in a very thin rescue worker because this tunnel they managed to dig was so thin. and the mother was able to literally hand over the child to this man. and the man said, you know, i have a son already, but the moment when the child was put into my hands, it felt like i had a second child. he was so ecstatic about the whole experience. he was able to bring the child to safety, put it in an

ambulance and then go back and inform the mother and the grandmother that the baby was safe and on its way to hospital. and apparently she was ecstatic when she heard that news even though it then took another couple of hours for the rescue workers to expand the tunnel and get both of those two women out also. >> diana magna, i appreciate your time. thank you. let's check on other stories we're following tonight. susan hendricks has the bulletin. moammar gadhafi was finally buried today. a spokesman for libya's national transition council say that gadhafi, his son and defense minister were buried in a secret

location in an effort to keep it from being turned into a shrine. in syria, accusations that security forces are torturing wounded protesters at state-run hospitals. amnesty international today said the tactic is a new and troubling trend in the months long crackdown on anti-government protesters. a recommendation today that boys as young as 11 be vaccinated against the human papilloma virus. this from an advisory committee for the centers for disease control. hpv is the number one sexually transmitted disease in the u.s. and is linked to cancer. the vaccine is already recommended for young girls. one of steve jobs' final visions may soon be on its way. according to multiple reports, before his death this month, jobs had finally cracked how to build an apple tv, one that will sync wirelessly with other apple devices. gotta see this. a couple that can prove they can literally weather storm. their wedding turned to chaos last month when a monster sandstorm crashed the ceremony. it came in quick. luckily, the judge pronounced them husband and wife before he all ran for cover. so they are married. >> yikes. that's very memorable. serious stuff. "360" following up on our ungodly discipline investigation.

another mother and dad charged with killing their daughter. did they do it in the name of god? did a book play a role? >> i'll tell you what happened next. the latest in the michael jackson death trial. also tonight, the singer's former nurse takes the stand for the defense. whoa. whoa. how do you top great vacations? whoa. getting twice the points on great vacations. whoa!

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tonight on "360," following up on a story we call ungodly discipline. kids beaten, sometimes killed because their families say they're following the word of god. we told you about lydia shaats who was 7 when she was beaten to death. her parents believed that god wanted them to spank lydia so hard that it hurt, an approach to discipline that many

fundamentalists embrace. there's even a training manual that's sold a million copies. it's unclear how many kids whose parents follow the advice have been killed. another homicide case this time in washington state bears striking similarities to the lydia case. >> larry williams is the husband. carri williams the wife. together they were parents of eight. but now it's seven. the daughter they adopted from ethiopia is dead. and if the allegations are true, some say they are the parents from hell. mr. williams, can i just ask you, did you love this child? can you just answer that question if you loved this child? the question is did hannah die in the name of god? the williams lived in a large piece of secluded land in skagit county, washington. according to a sheriff's office affidavit, the mother said that she found 13-year-old hannah face down outside the house with mud in her mouth and not breathing. but there's so very much she left out. >> the date of her death was not the first day she'd been struck. >> reporter: here is what the affidavit says. hannah had a large lump on her head and several fresh red bloody markings on her hips, knees, elbows and face. and when doctors performed

hannah's autopsy, they declared the 13-year-old was abnormally thin. on the forehead was a hematoma, swollen bruise. there were abrasions on the right and left upper pelvis area. there were patterned contusions on the legs. prosecutors are investigating whether those beatings came because of biblical teachings. the other children who implicate their parents in the affidavit told investigators that hannah was often left outside in the cold as discipline because she was rebellious. hannah was so weakened from the discipline, hours in the bone-chilling cold was more than she could take. but listen to the 911 call. look who she blames for her child's death.

>> if you didn't stand exactly where you were supposed to stand, that would be considered rebellious, and you could be punished for that. >> reporter: in the affidavit, hannah's 9-year-old brother told detectives that people like his dead sister got spankings for lying and go into the fires of hell. detectives say larry williams made his son stop talking to authorities after that. we met larry williams with his attorney in court during a motion hearing. mr. williams, can you tell us what happened to your daughter? what do you think god thinks about this case, sir? among the evidence found in the house, a variety of books and videotapes by well-known fundamentalist christian authors michael and debby pearl, including a book called "to train up a child"? >> yes. >> reporter: it's a best-selling book which advocates corporal punishment of children from infant on up. the authors of the book say the writings are guided by the teachings in the bible. >> it says that if you spare the

rod, you hate your child. but if you love him, you chasten him timely. >> reporter: i interviewed the pearls this past summer because of a chillingly similar case. kenneth and elizabeth schatz are now in prison after pleading to killing their daughter lydia, also adopted from africa. taken from their home as evidence "to train up a child." michael ramsey is the d.a. who prosecuted the schatzes. what do you think influenced them to beat, terrorize and torment their children? >> the book by mr. pearl. there's no doubt about that. >> reporter: let's say a 7-year-old slugs his sister. >> you explain to him that what he's done is violent and that that's not acceptable in society and it's not acceptable in our home. then i would take him somewhere like into his bedroom and i would tell him i'm going to give him 15 licks. >> reporter: with what? >> probably a belt on that big a boy. i'd probably use a belt. it would be handy. i might use a wooden spoon or a

piece of, like, plumbing supply line. >> reporter: a plumbing supply line, one of the pieces of evidence that larry williams gave to sheriff's deputies in washington state after authorities said he acknowledged he and his wife used it to strike their children. mrs. williams, do you like the book "to train up a child"? >> we have no comment today. >> reporter: can you tell us what happened to your daughter though? do you still say she killed herself? >> no comment today. >> reporter: larry and carri williams are out on bond. they've pled not guilty. they've been ordered not to talk to their surviving children, who are now in foster homes. >> i don't use the term hitting. >> reporter: what's the word? >> spanking. >> reporter: prosecutors say they have no plans to pursue charges against michael and debby pearl. when i talked to the authors about the death of lydia in california, they said their book reject parents losing control and acting out of anger. you're not accepting any blame? >> absolutely not.

>> reporter: it's the same sentiment they have regarding the death of hannah williams in washington. they released a statement on their facebook page which says -- and it continues in part -- larry and carri williams are charged with homicide by abuse and felony assault of one of their other children. the prosecution is just twinning to methodically go through the evidence, and that includes reading "to train up a child," cover to cover. gary joins us now. how are the other williams' kids doing? do we know? >> they're all in foster homes. one of the children just became 18. so it's not clear if he'll leave the foster home and go on his own. he can if he wants to. but they've been ordered, the parents, not to talk to these seven kids, for two reasons. one, to protect the children from harm.

and two, because it's very likely that some of all of these children will testify against their parents and they do not want the parents trying to influence their children's testimony. >> so insidious, the idea of kids being abused in the name of god. we've done a number of these stories in different parts of the country. how big a problem do you think this really is? >> this is a big problem. we've talked to d.a.s from coast to coast, they tell us that it's very common. that being said, polls show that most americans do support spanking their children, but most americans don't bloody their children, don't pummel their children, don't seriously hurt their children. it does say in the bible not to spare the rod, but it doesn't say you should humiliate your children. it just doesn't say you should bloody them. it doesn't say you should humiliate them and that's something to keep in mind. >> where are larry and carri williams staying? >> this is interesting. they can't be together because they don't want them to talk about their testimony. carri williams, the wife, is staying in her parents' house. larry williams is staying in the house where his whole family was, where his daughter died.

it's very interesting, many of the neighbors wanted to go on camera because they're scared but they're creeped out that he's staying in the house and mowing the lawn and they have children in the neighborhood and they know what he's alleged to have done. they're very scared of this man. >> gary, appreciate the update. coming up, michael jackson's nurse on the stand. plus people with a strange obsession with the fast food sandwich end up on our ridiculist. 12 years. today i own 165 wendy's restaurants. and i get my financing from ge capital. but i also get stuff that goes way beyond banking. we not only lend people money, we help them save it. [ junior ] ge engineers found ways to cut my energy use. [ cheryl ] more efficient lighting helps junior stay open later... [ junior ] and serve more customers. so you're not just getting financial capital... [ cheryl ] you're also getting human capital. not just money. knowledge. [ junior ] ge capital. they're not just bankers... we're builders. [ junior ] ...and they've helped build my business. fortunately... there's senokot-s® tablets. senokot-s®. for occasional constipation associated with certain medications.

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the defense is presenting its case in the trial of michael jackson's doctor conrad murray. today one of jackson's nurses testified that he asked her for propofol or to help him find a doctor who could give it to him. the defense's theory is that michael jackson administered the fatal dose of the anesthetic to himself. in connecticut, the sentencing phase has started for the second man, this man, convicted in horrific deadly home invasion in 2007. joshua komisarjevsky was convicted of a murder and kidnapping in a home invasion that left a mother and two daughters dead. they've released the names of the casey anthony jurors. the judge imposed a three-month cooling off period out of concern for the jurors' well-being. that period is over.

>> say you have taken a photograph in madagascar, put it up on flicker on your site, you find my site and make me a friend and you say, look, you know, you somehow communicate through flicker to me that you got this, and i will probably even pick it up because i see you becoming a friend and i will get to it i will pick it up and start taking it through the catalog when i get a chance there are a lot there waiting to be done. >>the prethety cool. if you have a flicker account and find a fluke don't be a flake, just hit send and let it fly. erin burnett "outfront" ahead at the 11 p.m. what is next? one of the key advisors to the flat tax or not so flat tax plan, the bottom line of what it means for most americans. then bill richardson's efforts to reach out to the

latin community lagging in the hispanic vote, find out whether his efforts will work and herman cain ad, not the cigarette we can't resist. grab your gizzards. the mcrib is back. ♪ ♪ ♪ when the things that you need ♪ ♪ come at just the right speed, that's logistics. ♪ ♪ medicine that can't wait legal briefs there by eight, ♪ ♪ that's logistics. ♪ ♪ freight for you, box for me box that keeps you healthy, ♪ ♪ that's logistics. ♪ ♪ saving time, cutting stress, when you use ups ♪ ♪ that's logistics. ♪

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here's a treat for the eyes with pretty amazing stuff. scientists call it a coral mass injection. for the rest of us, it's the northern lights. shades of red, orange and green lights that dance across the

night's sky. look at that. northern lights came to the deep south last night making them visible hundreds of miles farther south than they normally would be. an extraordinary sight. these are obviously time-lapsed images. if you've ever seen them in person, it is an extraordinary sight. those little lights that passing across are airplanes done in time-lapse photography. all right. time now for the ridiculist. tonight, we're adding the raging mcmania over mcdonald's mcrib. shout it from the rooftops, the mcrib is back. this thing comes back more often than chronic acid reflux. nonetheless, people are going bonkers over it. there's nary a rib to be found in the mcrib. they call it that because it sounds better than a mcpork fat. it's basically a pork patty wrestled into the shape of ribs

topped with a sauce made up with, among other things, high fructose corn syrup, beet powder and natural smoke flavor. whatever that means. it has 500 calories and 26 grams of fat but it also has vitamin c. one milligram of vitamin c. remember that for the next time you feel like you're getting a cold. what's the allure of the mcrib? why is there a mcrib locator where you can track mcrib sightings in case you want to drive ten hours to get one. oh, yeah, people do that. there was an article in "the new york times" about that. maybe people want what they can't have, what's elusive or rare. like a full lunar eclipse or haley's vomit. it doesn't sell all year long because people get tired of it, as opposed to the ennui-proof filet-o-fish. shape it into a t-bone and throw it on a bun and call it the mcsteak, if they were available for a limited time only. whatever the reason, some people really do go nuts for the mcrib.

others just don't get the hype. there are two kinds of people, the jack osbournes and the kelly osbournes. >> mcrib is back. >> are you serious, jack? >> that's so good. >> you're getting excited over the mcrib? >> you know what, kelly, it's the little things that count. >> jack goes, oh, mcrib is back! >> shut up. >> you're such a [ bleep ], jack, the mcrib. >> i like those osbournes. what i meant to say when it comes to the mcrib, there's three types of people, the jacks and the kellys and the homer simpsons. >> one ripwich, please. >> sir, are you all right?