i have to find out mo about him. vicki ward, thank you very much. knows all about it. thanks as always. all right, everyone. have a wonderful night. thanks so much. as always for watching. it is time for "anderson cooper 360" and it starts in five, four, three, two -- go anderson. thanks, erin. with rick perry, considering opting out of future debates he says which is a choice that any candidate, of course, is free to make. but keep in mind the reason he's giving simply doesn't stand up to scrutiny. the campaign manager says they're quote examining the opportunities and opportunity cost of each upcoming debate. before air time there was a statement backing away from the idea of ducking future debates but last night governor perry seemed to make it clear showing why it was a mistake to take part in the debates. >> well, i don't think anybody's ever run the perfect campaign, and actually, these debates are set up for nothing more than to

tear down the candidates. it's pretty hard to be able to sit and lay out your ideas and concepts with a one-minute response. so, you know, if there was a mistake made, it was probably ever doing one of the campaigns when all they're interested in is stirring it up between the candidates instead of talking about the issue that is are important. >> you think you have -- >> how do you get us back to work? >> bottom line, he says the debates are rigged against the conflicts but the candidates themselves agreed on the rules for all the debates including the recent one held in las vegas. that's where most of the complaints break down. remember, his first beef is that the debates set up for quote nothing but conflict. here's a question i asked that night giving him an opportunity to respond to the criticism of his health care record. >> governor perry, in the last debate governor romney pointed out that texas has the highest rate of uninsured children in the country. you did not get an opportunity to respond to that.

what do you say? how do you explain that? >> well, we have got one of the finest health care systems in the world in texas. as a matter of fact, the houston -- texas medical center, more doctors, nurses go to work every morning there than anywhere in america. the idea you can't have access to the health care but we have a 1,200-mile border with mexico and a huge number of illegals coming in to this country and coming in because the federal government failed to secure that border. but they're coming here because there's a magnet and the magnet is called jobs and those people that hire illegals ought to be penalized. >> now, you can agree or disagree with what he said but it's a clear on point straightforward answer to a simple, straightforward question. a question we designed to give him a chance to set the record straight and he did and not to start a fight. yet in the very next sentence, governor perry starts a fight with a sucker punch, a direct personal attack.

we'll roll back the tape just a bit to see how he makes such a sharp turn from the answer to an attack. >> and those people that hire illegals ought to be penalized. and mitt, you lose all of your standing from my perspective because you hired illegals in your home and you knew for -- about it for a year and the idea that you stand here before us and talk about that you're strong on immigration is on its face the height of hypocrisy. >> governor romney? >> rick, i don't think i've ever hired an illegal in my life. and so, i'm afraid -- i'm looking forward to finding your facts on this. >> i'll tell you the facts. you had the -- >> i'm speaking. i'm speaking. i'm speaking. >> so objection one, the debates are designed for nothing more than tearing down the candidates. governor perry himself took that opportunity and others to tear down mitt romney with what was

clearly a prepared attack on mitt romney. the governor did the same thing. hillary clinton did the same thing on barack obama and vice versa. candidates can pivot as governor perry did from the question you asked to the answer or the response they want to give. >> governor perry, the 14th amendment allows anybody, a child of illegal immigrants born here is automatically american citizen. should that change? >> let me address herman's issue -- >> i'd rather you answer that question. >> i understand that. you get to answer ask and i get answer how i want to. >> that's actually a response. that's not an answer but go ahead. >> and he did just as others steer the dialogue to the way that suited them for took more time. wasn't the format which, again, they agreed to. it was their own behavior that truly shaped the debate and what they wanted to do in that debate. perry complained they don't have the time to lay out ideas.

i want to show you how he used what seems like ample time in a fox news debate last month. political observers point to times like this to back away from debates and really behind his talk lately of backing away from the debates and also slumping in the polls. >> i think americans just don't know sometimes which mitt romney they're dealing with. is the mitt romney that was on the side of -- against the 2nd amendment before he was for the 2nd amendment? was it before he was before the social programs from the standpoint of he was for standing up for roe versus wade before he was against roe versus wade. he was for race to the top. he's for obama care and now he's against it. i mean, we'll wait until tomorrow and -- >> that debate was september 22nd.

next day we did some polling and the last time rick perry was in the lead at 30%. the next poll by fox showed him in second place. nearly every poll after that showed him at third at best. the perry campaign had a response. spokesman sullivan tells us, quote, there have been eight debates so far. the governor has participated in five of them. but there are 18 scheduled between now and the end of january and they have to spend time out with voters and iowa and new hampshire and south carolina so i simply questioned whether 18 was a realistic number. that's all. we haven't ruled anything out at all. joining us now democratic strategist james carville and eric ericsson and editor and eric what do you make of this? if governor perry was a good debater, do you think he'd be saying there's too many debates? >> no, of course. looks like by the end of january now 21 which is the most we have had in the last decade. look. i don't blame of the candidates

for saying in the december debates on small networks and might want to switch one or two. not all of them. i think the bigger issue, anderson, the lack of message discipline. he released his economic plan last week and spent a time talking about the birth certificate comments and now the debate performances and all because of the perry campaign. >> james, what about this? i mean, what does this say about rick perry? >> you know, a lot. i think the biggest mistake he made was on august 11th getting in the race. i don't blame eric for being frustrated. i think a lot of conservatives thought it was something to articulate their position. he's for a flat tax and same day says you can fill out the regular form if you want to. part of the attraction is that you get rid of the irs. that doesn't work. and then he says in his book he's going to eliminate the department of education and then, no, just cut it in half. and then he says he is not going to debate and now he says he will. it's a stupid birther stuff. stepped all over himself.

this guy, i thought he would be a pretty good candidate. he turned out to be just a terrible candidate. i don't know what's wrong. i think he's a people just kind of exasperated and then i don't want to debate. suppose you win the nomination. you wouldn't debate barack obama? you run away from a general election debate. there you mono e mono. it's you and the president and looks weak and indecisive and stepping on everything. just a terrible campaign. i'm sorry but it is. >> eric, you wrote on redstate.com i don't think they understand how uninspired rick perry left his own supporters and is he wasting our time? if i remember correctly, you were a pretty big fan. are you one of the supporters you talked about who's left uninspired? >> i wouldn't say i was a supporter. i certainly like the guy. he is a friend. he announced at my event. i'm surprised that a governor of

the second largest state in the nation, been governor for a decade, just flops over on the trail. the campaign has been completely off message. they've yet to find a message. he's actually got good policy issues but the campaign can't find its foot and i get the strong sense, anniversary, they don't understand their own base of supporters a lot of whom i hear from are really dejected right now looking at this race, mitt romney's capped at 25%. everyone comes up ahead of mitt romney. they fall behind, someone else gets ahead of mitt romney. this guy can be beat by someone. this is the guy to beat mitt romney and yet he's flailing around like someone's cut his tendons or something. >> cut his tendons. what is the problem, james? i mean, he is the governor of the state of texas. he's, you know, an accomplished politician. is there such a huge difference between running for a statewide office and running for president at this stage in the primaries? >> yes.

yes. yeah and apparently he's in over his head. it's evident. it is almost like -- you almost want to like somebody needs an intervention on this guy. let's go back to texas and, you know, have some shots and some chicken fried steak and maybe go out and, you know, do some -- go to some ball games. he is obviously in over his head and the sooner he gets out of this the happier he'll be. >> there's no way to come back? >> slippery slope out there. well, i don't know about there's no way but unless something really changes here, it's just been awfully disappointing. i don't see him -- i thought he tried to get a message. i was kind of hoping he would do well. i wanted him and romney -- i like a good campaign. eric can understand that. it's good for cnn. it's good for all of us. it's all fun and, you know, and this is turning in to a big nothing. it's just a nothing-burg and disappointing on some level. if anything i'm a little mad about it. >> yeah.

>> i wanted to be more interesting. >> i would give that to james but i would say he has two months and more money in the bank than anyone but romney and just brought in some really good team players this week and they have to act very fast because, you know, this debate issue i think really overshadows what is the lack of message discipline. he can't talk about the issues he wants to talk about playing defense on the stuff that his spokespeople put out there or he's put out there. >> interesting stuff. appreciate it. thanks very much. let us know what you think on facebook or twitter. i'll be tweeting tonight. up next, the occupy wall street protesters say they speak for 99% of the americans not super rich. hear from cornell west who stands with the protesters and a member of the 1% who's confronting them. >> what do you think my fair share is? what percent of my income -- give me a percentage. >> no, no. >> what percent? >> marginal. >> you think -- hold on. >> he's a cpa. ask the tax guy. ask the tax guy.

what's fair for his clients? >> what do you think is fair? also tonight, jack hanna on why the few surviving animals from the private zoo in ohio why the few surviving ones could begin where the nightmare began. did michael jackson give himself the fatal dose that killed him? major testimony today in the conrad murray trial and both those questions. we'll talk two experts when we continue. [ male announcer ] this is lara.

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well, no sign the occupy wall street movement is dying down but protesters face a challenge from the weather. rain today in lower manhattan's park could be snow this weekend if the forecast is correct. protesters that describe themselves as the 99% of americans not super wealthy face a challenge to explain what they want. up close tonight, strategist and radio host peter shift went down to the park with a sign reading i am the 1%. let's talk.

he also had a camera crew. watch. >> you're in the 1%. >> no. >> we're in the 99%. >> listen. wouldn't you like to get in to the 1%? >> you know -- >> you don't want more money? if i offered to put you -- >> and i would pay more share and get rid of -- >> okay. look. wait a minute. >> immediately, immediately. >> let me ask you a question. >> and his secretary. >> let me ask you a question. >> so these folks could pay the student loans, could get off of food stamps. are you driving? they don't have a car. >> what do you think my fair share is? what -- >> get rid of the bush -- >> no. just a percentage. >> marginal. >> you think -- hold on. >> he's a cpa. ask the tax guy. ask the tax guy. what's fair for his clients? >> what do you think is fair? >> national average is close to 17%. a whole bunch of people, about 50% don't pay any taxes. >> what would be fair for me?

>> i can't tell you that. i believe in the progressive income tax. that is fair. >> how much should i pay? look. all right. i'm paying -- all right. well that would be a huge tax cut for me. i pay much more than 35% of the total income. >> where is your secretary? >> i'm giving the government half of what i earn. you think they should take more? >> get rid of the bush tax cuts. >> i would be paying more than what i -- >> there's no way to cut the expenses you want without increasing revenue. there's no way to fix this problem. >> if you raise my taxes, maybe i'll just decide to sell my business and fire 150 people. >> peter shift joins us now, the author of "how an economy grows and why it crashes." also with us, professor cornell west, author of more books than we have time to mention. and also been part of the protests quite often in recent months. both, thank you guys for being with us. peter, one thing we haven't seen a lot of occupy wall street

protests a business men like yourself going down there. what are you trying to accomplish doing that? >> you know, i sympathize with the situation they have but i'm trying to help encourage them to direct the anger to washington. it is big government that has wrecked the u.s. economy, not capitalism. they need to understand that. and if they really want a bright future for the country, capitalism will provide it. not government. >> cornell well, what do you think of what mr. schiff is saying here? >> one, i think it's a beautiful thing to go down for dialogue. democracy is all about public discussion and very clear that the occupy movement is very much not about hating any individuals but rather we hate injustice, that we hate inequality and i think peter would agree that there are human values that are not reducible to market price. there's precious human life that's not reducible to market calculation and the real question is how do we deal with social justice and market price? there's always a tension there

and that's where the history wrote. >> peter, you think the protesters should be angry at washington and not wall street. washington didn't force them to invest in -- or give themselves million dollar bonuses. do you think the anger is justified? >> no. washington created that environment. if we didn't have a central bank keeping rates so low, we never would have had all the speculation, we never would have had the mortgage bubble and in fact freddie and frannie insuring -- >> aren't people responsible for their own bad behavior and companies and individuals supposed to be responsible? >> look. look. if the government liquors you up and now you're drunk and do stupid things, you have to understand why wall street made the mistakes. remember, i was there for years warning about the problems. i saw this crisis coming from a mile away because i saw how

government was distorting the market. >> professor west? >> but peter, it was wall street that put the pressure on government to undercut glass steeg el so banks merge so they could trade rather than lend, speculate rather than provide resources. >> i don't doubt that. >> professor, finish your point. >> with your politicians who themselves either shaped, influenced by big money or sometimes involved in legalized bribery. i think you got the story wrong. it is the influence from the outside. it was at 1%, it was theal gargs put the pressure on government. >> the problem is that washington shouldn't have that influence to give out. the problem is in washington having the power that people are lobbying to benefit from. but remember, glass was put in counter act the damage of another government regulation which was guaranteed bank accounts. the government is already poisoned the banking system by guaranteeing everybody's account. that's not capitalism. if the government wasn't

guaranteeing bank accounts, banks would be a lot more responsible because the depositors would care what the banks did with their money but the government told the depositors not to care. it doesn't matter because the government bails you out. >> professor? >> no. no, no, no. we need guarantees because the level of insecurity in uncertainty was so pervasive in the 1930s that you could not get a financial system off the ground. so you had to -- >> that's not true. that's not true. that's just not true. >> it was going on in the 1920s. didn't require some kind of government intervention to allow some stability? are you denying that? >> no. it was -- >> are you denying that? >> it was the federal reserve -- i'm denying that. it was too loose and had a stock market bubble in the 1920s. we had a depression because roosevelt and hoover didn't let the free market work. they tried to prop everything up artificially. they interfered with the free market. we didn't get out of the

depression until we ended the second world war. that's how long the government delayed that correction. >> no. >> yeah. >> no, no. we need to have coffee. we need to have coffee and cognac to wrestle through thing. i think you're wrong on that, my brother. >> this requires both coffee and cognac? huh oh. >> i think we need cognac to work this out, brother pete. >> we won't solve the problems you're talking about by raising taxes on the people that produce the wealth, that create the jobs, that start the businesses, that produce the products. if we -- free market capitalism that's going to do it. not government redistribution. >> with taxes on financial transactions of stocks and derivatives, why? because it's unproductive speculation that's been driving so much of this problem. >> i agree with you. that's being driven by the federal reserve but i don't want to send more money to washington. that's not going to grow the economy. that grows the government. >> that's greed. that's corporate greed on wall

street unregulated by any ideals of justice. >> because the government -- because the government is taking away all the market regulations and replacing it with less productive, less effective government relations. look. return the sound money. let interest rates go up. we won't have this speculation. we'll have real investment on main street. but we're not having that now because the federal reserve and the government are getting in the way. >> but there's a gap between small business and mega business. it's the mega business that is not subject to market discipline. small business has been subject to market discipline. >> why is that gap -- >> you have got to decentralize it. too big to fail -- >> the reason the gap is so big because government policy. because of the fed. if you go back to a real free market capitalist system, that gap is going to close on its own. >> no, no. how could that be? how free is your capitalism? we had child labor laws. we wouldn't have the weekend if

it wasn't for the labor movement. >> of course -- no. >> workers work seven days a week. >> no. it was the free market that ended child labor and working on the weekends by raising the productivity of workers. >> no. it was people like the occupy wall street movement. >> that's a bunch of nonsense. that is liberal propaganda. >> it was -- >> no. >> sinclair and others. >> no, no. free market capitalism lifted the standard of living and we gave them tools. it was capitalism that created that from savings, from investment. and all that came because we had a free country. we had limited regulations and government and taxation and blew it. we had a huge lead and blew it all embracing socialism. >> final thought. >> we didn't have free trade unions until the 1930s because of the power of the bosses. >> thankfully. yeah. >> that was -- >> destroyed the businesses. >> we have to have you -- >> the unions had to do that on

their own. >> they made more money before the unions than after the unions. >> i have to jump in here, guys. >> that didn't need bailouts. >> it is a fascinating discussion. we want to have you both -- >> i wish we had more time to debate my brother peter directly on this. i tell you that. >> we'll have you both back on and with a lot longer time, maybe next week. >> i appreciate that. >> yeah. it's a good dialogue and one that's important. >> any time. >> peter schiff, cornell west, thank you. just ahead, the family of gadhafi plans to file a lawsuit. find out who they're targeting and in a moment. why animals that survived a night of terror will be staying put at the ohio zoo but the widow of the man that shot himself and released them wants them back. jack hanna joins me in a moment. ♪ [ cellphone rings ]

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tonight a new twist in the story of ohio in to a panic last week. dozens of wild inmalls including this bear on the loose for hours released by their owner who then killed himself after releasing them. armed police were sent to the scene and by the next morning, 49 of the animals were dead including lions and 18 tigers. tigers and lions roaming free in zainsville. the 73-acre farm is a few miles from a high school. a grizzly bear, two monkeys and three leopards captured alive and no humans were hurt in this bizarre incident. it's not exactly what police offers train for. they didn't have tranquilizer darts on them and an hour of daylight before darkness fell and the animals would possibly have escaped even further away. today the ohio department of agriculture issued a quarantine order meaning they'll be at the

zoo for now. thompson's widow planning to take custody of them today. joining me now is jack hanna. from what i understand, you got a call early in the morning from your colleagues in columbus that miss thompson heading to take the animals back with a horse trailer. what went through your mind when you got that call? >> like you, anniversarderson, call and these guys have been up. only got it late last night. i said, you are kidding me. no way. you're going to take them back there with carnage of a week ago? impossible. i said you have to call the governor. i said, plus, they're in quaranti quarantine. the state goes, what do you talk about? the governor issued the order or not the governor. the head of the department offing a. they're to go nowhere. an animal from the credited organization, they go through stringent processes.

one of those is every animal, i don't care from san diego or our animal goes to san diego, every animal in quarantine for 30 days and depending on the type of animal could be longer. we do that -- remember, they went through, you know what last week and bring them there to get them calm and eating and the testing, was to start as a matter of fact any day now but obviously we don't want to put the animals down again after they got there last week. i said those animals aren't going anywhere. we have to figure out what to do with the animals to see if they're free of disease because of our collection at the zoo. >> do you have any reason to believe. >> it's unbelievable. >> do you have any reason to believe that the situation at the property is an appropriate location for the animals to be living? i mean, you know, what were the conditions like? is she capable of caring for these animals? >> anderson, the question is her husband went to prison for a year. she left him. do you remember that? i understand she didn't go back to take care of him and she wants the animals back.

she said she has a love for them. she may but you don't love something and put them in the conditions up there. there's no way over my dead body and might be that pretty soon that those animals will go back to there to the same conditions and i'd wake up tomorrow morning saying, let's say they got out again or something happened. can you imagine what they think of not just the zoo but the state of ohio? are we crazy? these new rules, i'll tell you something, the most stringent and a committee set up and going right now, for example, perimeter. i haven't announced this yet. fencing. a veterinarian inspection once a year. people of ohio, five people to inspect it once a year and then the proper habitat and insurance policies and where the animals come from and going to. out of those few things i mentioned, going to be some more, by the way. 90% of the people or more won't have a pet lion in the backyard. >> it's fascinating stuff. jack, we'll keep in touch with you about this. see what happens.

appreciate your time tonight. thank you. >> thanks, anderson. coming up, testimony in the conrad murray trial of whether michael jackson was addicted to painkillers. latest from the courtroom. plus a lot more ahead and first fredericka whitfield with the bulletin. >> hello to you. eastern baghdad, ten people are dead targeting a police patrol. more than 30 people were injured according to witnesses. moammar gadhafi's family is planning to file a war crimes complaint against nato according to a lawyer for the family in response nato said it is in, quote, strict conformity with the relevant u.n. security council resolutions. and on to turkey now. a 18-year-old boy was rescued from the rubble of an apartment building almost 100 hours after the 7.2 magnitude earthquake hit. the death toll has risen to 535 but more than 2,300 people injured. and it's a real life slum

dog millionaire story. a 26-year-old man has won a million dollars after answering every question correctly on the indian version of "who wants to be a millionaire?" he grew in one of the poorest states in india and before the game show he was making about $120 a month. anderson, you can guess what he'll do with the million dollars now. >> yeah. what? >> he's going to buy a new house, of course. everyone buys property. he lives with his wife, his mother and five brothers. and so he's planning to pay for one big home so that all of them can live a little bit more luxuriously than they have been. >> well, i hope he saves some, as well. thanks very much. just ahead on the program, explosive testimony in the michael jackson death trial about the alleged addiction to a painkiller. what a specialist said on the stand today and what the medical records of how much demerol jackson was taking. what one of the most hated men in america said in a jailhouse interview with barbara walters, when we continue.

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crime and punishment. michael jackson death trial on track to go to the jury next week. today was a big day. both of them doctors, addiction specialist and an anesthesiologist. the most observers agree they could make or break the case against dr. murray. randi kaye joins me now. it was a big day. what did the anesthesiologist say? >> well, we're talking about dr.

paul white and he is an anesthesiologist but an expert on propofol. but what he really needed to do was to dispute the testimony from the prosecution's expert anesthesiologist, dr. steven schaefer. he said that the only scenario that fits is that michael jackson was on an iv propofol drip for more than three hours before dr. conrad murray even knew that he had stopped breathing. dr. paul white doesn't buy that at all saying that dr. murray never abandoned his patient. listen to what he said in court. >> this deal immediately with the elephant in the room here. >> elephant in the room. okay. >> the elephant in the room being, conrad murray has been accused of infusing a dose of propofol and leaving this patient.

can you justify that? >> absolutely not. >> now, this witness really could make or break the case for dr. murray. i mean, the defense really put him on the stand to prove that michael jackson was an experienced drug user who may have even known how to use a syringe and may have injected himself, may have overdosed on his own by accident. he was also there, really, to toss some water on the prosecution's theory that dr. murray used an iv drip or an infusion to give michael jackson enough propofol to stop his heart. here's more of today's testimony. >> i read all these documents and i was somewhat perplexed as to how the determination had been made by essentially all of the experts that dr. murray was infusing propofol because in my examination of the documents and the evidence that was described, it wasn't obvious to me. and i thought that there were

questions if, in fact, murray had administered the drug that is he described in his conversations with the police department and the doses that he described. i would not have expected michael jackson to have died. >> now, anderson, conrad murray as you know had told investigators he gave michael jackson 25 milligrams of propofol but there was a nearly empty bottle that measured 100 milligrams found in michael jackson's bedroom. so the defense wants the jury to believe that michael jackson may have reached for a syringe and injected himself with more propofol after dr. conrad murray had actually left the bedroom. but the state's anesthesiologist says that even if michael jackson did that, and dr. murray was out of the bedroom that this would still be considered abandonment by dr. murray and in a sense, of course, it would still be considered negligence which is what the state is trying to prove. >> the addiction -- what stood out about the addiction specialist? >> well, his name is dr. robert

waldman and he was pretty good on the stand today, in fact. he knows what addiction looks like. he says that michael jackson fit it is profile. he never treated michael jackson but he said he was addicted to demerol and if you're going through a demerol withdrawal then you are -- it acts -- it gives you insomnia. it acts as a stimulant. he said michael jackson was absolutely going through this type of thing. here's part of what he said on the stand today. >> tlibl's evidence that he was dependent upon demerol. based on my prior definition and what's known about his public behavior, and this course of treatment that he was probably addicted to opioids. >> so this is pretty critical because if they can prove that he was desperate for sleep because he was going through insomnia then the jury might buy the fact he was desperate enough to inject himself with propofol without realizing that it would kill him. anderson? >> i want to bring in chief

medical correspondent sanjay gupta with us. the idea that he was -- he might have been addicted the demerol, is that consistent with the behavior we know he was taking part in? >> dr. waldman made the conclusion by basically looking at documentation of his demerol use over the -- >> he was getting demerol from the dermatologist? >> a doctor not allowed to testify in this. the judge precluded him from testifying in this particular trial but, yeah, that's been documented and received high doses of demerol, dr. waldman said it's consistent with someone that's a demerol addict. much different reactions and the second part of what he was saying is someone who's withdrawing from demerol, starting to taper the doses behave very consistent way, as well, including feeling just miserable. feeling like the worse flu they had and michael jackson complained about. >> i also want to bring in the conversation marsha clark erks. what did you make of the

testimony today? what did you think was the most important? >> i think the fact that dr. white trying to establish if the statement to the police is to be believed then he did not commit an act that was criminally negligent and michael jackson had to have been the one who administered the lethal dose himself. of course, the prosecution can come back and say, look, you know, that's garbage in, garbage out. you're believing the statement to the police to believe the conclusion. the jury is not required to believe that statement and given the behavior of hiding the pop fol and not telling the doctors for propofol for days after the death, the jury has every reason to disbelieve how much he administered. >> the defense pinning the hopes it seems like on the testimony of dr. white. did he live up to all those expectations? >> well, he's trying to, anderson. he is trying to. i don't know whether he can or not to tell you the truth. i think that the prosecution built an extremely compelling

case. just the fact that they're -- their own expert, the prosecution expert said, look, if michael jackson was given the amount that dr. murray said and we believe the statement he gave 25 milliliters of propofol, he left the room. the fact that he left the room is in itself criminally negligent and you have questioned doctors on your show, anderson, that have said, yes, that's absolutely so far below the standard of care that itself is criminally negligent and i believe any doctor marginally ethical would have at least required mr. jackson to hire a crash cart, a surgical nurse so if he has to leave the room, michael jackson is never left alone and i think that -- he didn't even do that and ultimately is going to be what wins the day for the prosecution. >> sanjay, do you think dr. white's testimony medically speaking is credible? >> he is considered the father of propofol. he is the person who sort of in some ways investigating the drug

early on and widely regarded in terms of knowledge on the subject. i thought he did two breasting things. the big question of marcia alluding to is it's so bizarre to give this outside of the hospital and he's questioned by the defense here and said that's an off label use of that medication. lots of medications are used off label. it is almost as if he was trying to put propofol in the same wastebasket as other medications and not commenting on how strange it is or doing it before in somebody's house fly's a different meaning of off label and administering medications in a setting which may not be up to -- which is not up to the standards that it's supposed to be used in. >> without the resuscitation equipment that marcia was talking about. he'll be asked more about that. stay tuned for that tomorrow. the other thing i thought was interesting is the testimony of dr. schaefer, the prosecution's anesthesiologist and dr. white is based on how much propofol was in michael jackson's body at

the time what he died and what dr. white talked about today is this idea that pharmacokinetics, a way a drug is metabolizes varies widely from person to person you cannot make an estimation in terms of how much propofol a person got looking at the final lab value and he talked about today and i expect to come up again tomorrow to some extent and making that case well, it throws a lot of water on a lot of conclusions people have drawn looking at the numbers. >> fascinating. thank you very much. marcia clark, as well. coming up, bernie madoff speaking out from prison. why he's happier behind bars. also, ahead courtney and doug. that's right. they fight back against the halloween haters and they fight their way back on to tonight's ridiculous. we'll explain ahead. affordable energy in this country. we need to protect the environment. what about the economy? what about our planet? [announcer:] at conocophillips, we're helping power america's economy

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fredericka whitfield joins us again with a bulletin. >> hello again, anderson. hello, everyone. a federal judge in north carolina rejected a request by former presidential candidate john edwards to have his criminal indictment tossed out. he's set to face trial in january on six felony and misdemeanor counts related to campaign donations and payments. bernie madoff has terrible remorse for having ruined his family but is happier in prison than on the outside. that's what the ponzi scheme convict told barbara walters. madoff also said at one time he thought about suicide but didn't have the courage to take his own life. on wall street, stocks surge after the european union agrees to a deal to manage its debt crisis. the dow gained nearly 340 points and hit the 12,000 mark for the first since august 3rd. blue chips having the best month

in nearly 25 years. and a real feel good story. a florida army wife got a big surprise at chik-fil-a. her husband just got back from afghanistan. you can see her. as you expect, amy reid screamed with delight when chris reid delivered the meal to the table. she's been doing this every tuesday on family nights. they had family night every tuesday, anderson, and she was just expecting a regular employee to come bring the food. she is doing this because this is helping her get through the deployment. well now, she felt like it was a big dream. really nice. feel good story. >> i love those. >> tears you up. >> it does. earlier this week, we told you about the october misadventures of the sort of favorite maybe not december couple. now doug and courtney tell all what got them thrown out of the pumpkin patch. the ridiculous is next. congratulations.

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time now for the st. louis and we have to do it. we have to do it. no other choice. adding the halloween hater that is got courtney kicked out of a pumpkin patch. that's right. i'm doing it again. newly wed/reality show seekers/ambassadors of love, courtney and doug went to pick pumpkins and some of the other customers didn't approve. tonight, we are going to hear from courtney and doug, they perspective on the incident so that there's that to look forward to but first a little background from monday's show. >> some parent that is took the

kids to said pumpkin patch were in the in the spoirt and thought the pda was just inappropriate. the scourges took issue with the way that she was dressed and she got thrown out. she had no other choice but to walk the boots out of there and show off her pumpkins on the side of the road. there are other photos, oh yes. we can't put them on tv. they show a little too much crack-a-lantern. i'm not proud of that. so they have spoken out about this on dr. drew life changers. take a look. >> we were kicked out of the pumpkin patch. >> for the attire? >> kicked out for the attire. >> the women coming up to the manager and complaining. >> because of the kids? >> because of the kids, yeah. >> because of the kids. yeah. i don't know if you picked up on this because it was super subtle but i think perhaps courtney is implying that the women wanted her gone for some reason other than the kids.

>> so, a lot of the kids thought -- >> whoo! >> thought that she was like this pumpkin patch princess. >> princess. >> there was a handful of -- of concerned moms who went to the owners and said, get her out and so he was -- >> their cleavage was hanging out quite a bit. >> she is such a kidder. she's 17. so smart. those concerned moms, mind your own cleavage, that's what i say. the kids were having a good time. the dads were, too, according to doug. watch them as they try to keep a straight face. >> we overheard a dad say, to his little girl, look, honey, they have -- they have a pumpkin patch girl this year. >> the dad loved it. >> so a lot of the kids thought -- >> a whoo! >> hah hah. you can see more with courtney and doug on dr. drew's life changers november 7th. wait a minute. november 7th? that's more than a week away. i don't know if i can wait that

long. i guess meantime we have to make do with some of the older interviews like this one from e online. >> there was nothing illegal or immoral about it. we just found ourself -- >> playing the wings of love for each other. >> you made mention of wanting to do this, talk to me about the issue of premarital sex. >> okay. i don't want to hear the answer to that question, first of all. i do, however, have a few questions of my own. courtney, what makes you so enchanting? why are you so beguiling yet so elusive? what is your halloween costume going to be this year? will it perhaps be, i don't know, something provocative? most importantly, what the hell are you doing with your face? i have to know! all right. sorry. no choice. i got to see it. can we please roll my favorite