with dignity and respect. instead, some remains are lost, others dumped in a landfill. tonight, the defense secretary promises to make it right. >> none of us will be satisfied until we have proven to the families of our fallen heroes that we have taken every step possible to protect the honor and dignity that their loved ones richly deserve. penn state tries to start over. the university president and legendary football coach are fired for their roles in a blossoming child abuse scandal, least eight young boys abused yet students protested paterno's firing as unjust. >> we are -- >> penn state! >> we are -- >> up first tonight the rick perry apology tour, or stepped in it tour. call it what you will, after another big debate gaffe, this boardering on humiliating the texas governor is racing from tv studio to tv studio hoping to control the damage. >> obviously i stepped in it.

but again, i go -- i have my moment of humor with it and press on. >> if perry can have his moment of hume, i guess maybe we can, too. i'm not sure if you're a monty python fan but i am. watching perry reminded me a lot of this -- >> he said he's not dead. >> yes, he is. >> i'm not. >> he isn't? >> he will be soon, he's very ill. >> i'm getting bet. >> no, you're not, you'll be stone dead in a moment. >> sorry, guys. my experience tell me voters sometimes have a different verdict than the pundits. bill clinton's circumstance ka early 1992 or clinton's lewinsk. be careful in listening to pundits. for perry a twitter verse and blogosphere rush to say the debacle would be the end of an

already-struggling candidacy. >> it's three agencies of government when i get there that are gone. commerce, education and the -- what's the third one there? let's see. >> five. >> commerce, education -- >> epa. >> epa, there you go. no. >> seriously. >> is epa? >> no, sir. we're talking about the agencies of government -- epa need to be rebuilt. >> you can't name the third one? >> the third agency of government, i would do away with, education, the -- commerce and let's see. i can't. the third one i can't. sorry. oops. >> oops from governor perry. it took just seconds from ann

coult coulter, poor rick perry forgot how to win an election. offscreen dr. paul is administering last rites to rick perry. more 0 and more of those. you get the idea. the perry campaign knew immediately it faced a major damage control challenge and the candidate himself would have to lead it. first in the post debate spin room. >> yeah, i stepped in it, man. it was embarrassing, of course it was. >> and then, a full-court press on the morning news shows and beyond. >> i'm kind of proof positive of it every day that people make mistakes. i had a brain freeze, as you said, and failed to remember an agency of government. i think i made a -- an error last night. i stepped in it. if electing a debater in chief, don't elect me. i don't mind saying clearly that i stepped in it last night. >> iowa votes in 54 days, and it's near impossible tonight to

fine a republican who disagrees with this statement, if governor perry is to get back on his feet, he better fine a way to win the aucuses. that is doable? mary as the republican strategist in the room here, we all have bad moments, rick perry could not afford after several stumbles in earlier debates this one. is self-deprecating humor the path back or what does he have to prove this isn't the end? >> i'm with you on the monty python theory. we keep declaring these guys dead and they're lazarus-like, we have declared newt dead several times, declared cain dead, perry dead. and as not only monty python, you demonstrated the clinton comeback. they can and do come back. david gergen taught me this, it's how you respond to your

mistakes and in each case each of these guys in their lazarus moments responded, went back to their strengths. of course he can do it. and any of these guys could come back until mitt romney breaks out and so far he's not doing that, despite his stellar debate performances. >> the question is, we'll get to governor romney, how many times can you fall down? life's not about falling down, it's how you get and up, two, don't believe the smart people in washington. voters decide the elections. if we look the polling, the "usa today" gallup poll, go back to middle of august, rick perry at 29%. he's dropped to 11%. i suspect after last night, he's not going up. does he reach a point at which it's not just he has a problem, he has people in front of him with 54 days, it's hard if you imagine a horse track to get around ron paul, newt gingrich, herman cain and get your shot at mitt romney. >> absolutely.

this was a moment john cleese would have enjoyed new york question about that. and you know, i come in with the whole monty python tradition. i think he's helped himself with the good sportsmanship. he's treating it with humor and whatever else happens in the cap page i don't think he'll leave the campaign with his head down. but his problem is, this is a hit below the water line because it plays into the most important narrative that would be used against him, and that is good governor, created a lot of jobs, seems very strong but is he up to the job? is he smart enough to be president? this job, after all, is a complex job, as mary knows so well, you need smart people in there. and this just raises, once again, and i any in a way, because of the humor that others are inventing around it it's going to continue and linger in the public mind pipe have a very hard time seeing him catch fire now after this. and winning that iowa caucuses. i'll be amazed if he can.

can he stay? yeah, he can stay in. can he raise money, i doubt it. can he win iowa? i doubt that. >> the national political corner for t"the new york times," i wa out in iowa recently, the roll in the race perry wanted was the conservative to romney. you know mitt romney is there and is going to be there and we're looking for who will emerge as the conservative challenger. one person many conservatives take a cue from is the conservative south carolina senator jim demint. listen to him on the morning after how he rated the debate. >> if you had to pick one that you would put up against president obama in a debate setting now, who would you choose? >> well, chris, there are several of them. i think i'd have to say last night newt gingrich, mitt romney, excelled in a lot of way. they had clarity of vision and policies. >> not -- onimplied in that jeff, is that rick perry did not have the clear vision and a

strong debate performance. your assessment the day after? >> well, i don't think voters are directly looking for someone who can compete with barack obama on the debating stage. that's an underlying thing. one thing that governor perry has had going for him is that a lot of iowa republicans, i have talked to in recent weeks, want to like him. they want him to become a better candidate. they like many aspects of him but he's making it really hard to follow through on that. but several iowa republicanize talked to this morning and this afternoon who watched the debate said they're willing to give him the benefit of the doubt in most regard because they've seen him personally one-on-one. his burden now is to plant himself in iowa, first, and early voting states, advertise more, and try and present himself as different than the person you saw on the debating stage. in iowa that's possible because you don't need to see that many

republicans to stand out in the caucuses. but it's very, very, very difficult to sort of change the image that he's created for himself. so his campaign realizes what trouble he's in and he does not control his own destiny, no question about it. >> mary, that in many ways, jeff hit on what i'll call the perry pair owe dock. i was in iowa last week. i interviewed him on camera. i spent 40 minute naz cs in a c ride, getting to know him. he remainds me of bob kerry. on paper a great candidate. now and then give a speech connecting his vietnam service that would knock your socks off and then get up on the stage and flat out blow it. what is it some conditions call taye brain freeze, whatever, they get locked when the big moment arrives? >>there's a huge, huge difference between perry and kerry, if you will, which is,

and this is why iowan voter keep giving him the benefit of the doubt it is his record. it's the record they want to see. it's the record that no other candidate has. so all three thus iowa -- none of his debate performances were stellar, about new each and every case you get a parry press released, they lined up another county chairman or supporter that had been with a previous campaign. it's because of his record. and they're willing to take this gamble that his record is going to trump his rhetoric and sooner or later he'll be able to string a sentence together sufficiently. i thought his recovery effort, as david said, was spot on, funny, stay on message, and he did. >> see where this goes from here. five debates between now and the iowa caucuses, i believe the right number. appreciate your help. next, you won't want to miss this story. one inspector who helped uncover the horrendous abuses in the handling of the remains of u.s. car dead. a u.s. senator asking if our heros were abused, why hasn't anyone been fired?

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imagine the paper of losing one at iraq or afghanistan and then imagine someone's remains were lost because of incompetence or incinerated and then dumped without your knowledge at a landfill. a new report says top official as dover air force base knew about lost remains and major problem but was did nothing, nothing, to fix the mess. leon panetta made sure now those problems get fixed. >> all americans, including myself, are justifiably disturbs by the reports of mismanagement at dover port mortuary that came to light this week. >> joining us is carolyn learner with the office office u.s. special counsel, agency that investigated these abuses. when i read this, i get

outraged. so i can only imagine how the families of the fallen must feel. it's clearly insensitive behavior, incompetent behavior. this is not a new problem. why? why is this so bad, and why have these heroes been so mistreated? >> i think therery accouple of issues. one the failure of the air force to notify the families. the air force could have notified the families the minute they found out there was a problem. they chose not to. our office, the office of special counsel, asked them repeatedly why haven't you notified families yet? and their response was, some of them have blogs, they have websites, they might go to the media. so they didn't trust the families with the news. >> they didn't trust to cover their own you know whats as a posed to giving families the information. general schwartz has a very different take on this. listen to his explanation of why some of the families weren't told. >> we waited until it was clear

that the office of special counsel was going to render their report. we got 48 hours' notice. and we acted upon that notice. >> is that right? >> i believe this is a complete mischaracterization. we were hoping -- we assumed that the air force notified the families. a year or two ago. they -- >> notified them anyway, they shouldn't be waiting for some report that calls their conduct under the carpet. in anyone's view, as soon as they knew there was a problem they should have told them. >> they knew our report to the president and congress was eminent and they said to us, could you give us 48 hours so we can notify the families? again, we expresses our surprise that they hadn't yet informed the families. it turns out we think that they wanted 48 hours so they could inform the media and get to the media first before the families.

>> when you go through some of the specifics here, remains lost, pieces, forgive the language, of fallen heroes lost. some incinerated and then dumped in a landfill. who thought that was a good idea? >> well, i do want to be reclear that the insinration and dumping of the body parts was not part of our report. that came out -- we just found out about that ourselves yesterday. but i can't imagine anyone thought that was a good idea. >> but it happened. >> apparently it did. >> what is the culture? if it's -- it's not a good idea, it's insensitive, horrific and worse. so then how does it happen? what is the culture? i mean, they are overwhelmed, this has been a very tough ten-year period, afghanistan, iraq. it done excuse gross insensitivity and gross incompetence. how does it happen fun no one thinks it's a good idea? >> lack of accountability unless

the three whistle-blowers who came to our agency had come forward we never would have known about all of these problems. it takes someone there on the ground, who sees what's happening to actually report it and make it public. if the whistle-blowers hadn't come forward we never would have known about this. >> they were not celebrated, they have been punished. >> retaliated against. two individuals were fired after the news came to light. our agency was able to get them reinstated but three whistle-blowers who came forward to report this wrong doing have retaliation complaints pending. >> for a family, a military family, neighbor of a military family, somebody watching us now who is cringing at what has happened in the past, what is happening today? could this be happening still or are you convinced that the alarms have been appropriately sounded, attention has reached the right levels that it will not happen and that these heroes will be treated with respect and

dignity? >> certainly that's the message that we're here hearing how from the air force and we should be very greatful to the whistle-blowers who came forward who brought this all to light because it's through the public disclosure of these types of misdeeds that we get accountability. >> you say that's what you're hearing from the air force but you disputed what the air force chief of staff said publicly about the chain of events. so i want to ask you again, do you trust what you're hearing it from the air force? do you trust it? do you think the secretary of defense gets this message? do you think the president of the united states needs to get this message so it doesn't happen again? >> i think they need to get the message and they'll be need to be held accountable going forward. we can't predict what's going to happen in the future but we can make sure they're held accountable so this kind of thing doesn't happen again. >> carolyn lernor appreciate your time. let's dig deeper with a u.s.

senator who believes the air force is not moving quickly enough and forcefully enough to deal with the abuses. john tester raised this concern in a letter to the air force leadership. the supervisors who allowed these events to occur were not fired. if that is accurate, why were they not fired? senator, sound likes you have little doubt the air force is not taking this seriously enough and moving quickly and boldly enough? >> as you well know, taking care of remains of the folks who have given their lives for this country is a sacred duty, and the air force, as -- they have blown it. and the public trust is gone. i'm going to make the recommendation supervisors within that chain of command that oversaw this happening, they all need to be replaced. this is something that's totally unacceptable. >> if you read the report, it's hard not to get outraged. and you assume families are more outraged. remains lost, remains

incinerated and dumped in a landful. your pushing for answers. sometimes at times like this big organizations circle the wagons, if you will, try to protect their own. listen to the new defense secretary, he's only been on the job a couple of months, says he was briefed on this and sounds convinced, listen here, senator that they understand the urgency. >> when i came into this office in july, one of the first meetings i had as secretary of defense i was briefed by secretary donely, general schwartz, on their investigation into dover. they were for coming with me. it was clear they took these allegations seriously and they were committed to strengthing the department's handling of the sacred and solemn task. >> do you buy it? do they take it seriously no one's been fires. >> they need to move, move

quickly, and they need to move fairly on this. the truth is, the people who were responsible need -- i mean, look, there's no excuses here. so the people who are responsible, the supervisors responsible, cut them loose, move on, make sure that this never happens again. if anybody should get this, it's the folks that serve in the military. there's no if, ands or buts about that. i worked with secretary panetta, i think he's a good fellow but he needs to drop the hammer on this, move forward, move quickly. congress is watching. the american people is watching. and most importantly, the people who have been done wrong by these acts are watching. >> you believe these guys should be fired. i don't think there's anybody out there listening who will disagree with you. listen to general norton schwartz, the air force chief of staff, saying here in one of the cases the supervisor involved, this is the course he decided was propose. listen. >> the uniformed officer received a letter of reprimand, we established an unfavorable

information file. we removed him from the command list and his anticipated job as a group commander at shaw air force base was red lined. this is not a trivial sanction. >> the janl sgeneral says not a trivial sanction. >> a reprimand letter or transfer in the organization, truly is not enough. if we're going to make sure that this never happens again. >> as we speak tonight, senator, the big question is for a family out there who has a son, a daughter, a husband a wife, serving overseas in iraq, afghanistan, or anywhere else, who risks the ultimate sacrifice, can it it happen again? could it happen again? are you confident the answer's no? >> depends how this is handled going into the future. the answer can be no. if it's handled quickly and

seriously, and i think that we can assure folks it will never happen again. if we -- if we lollygag around about it, then we're going to have more problems and i don't think -- don't think -- i know that's not acceptble. senator john tester, appreciate your time. still to come tonight's number, isn't three but it is something rick perry can't afford to forget. and joe paterno's out of a job and a big national honor. the latest on the penn state child sex abuse scandal, next.pr n with aveeno daily moisturizing lotion. the natural oatmeal formula improves skin's health in one day, with significant improvement in 2 weeks. i found a moisturizer for life. [ female announcer ] only from aveeno. ♪ [ male announcer ] what is the future of fuel? the debate is over. ♪ lexus hybrid drive technology

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last night the legendary penn state football coach joe paterno was told to pack up immediately. his nomination for one of the nation's highest civilian honors is collapsing. bob casey and pat toomey announced they no longer support paterno as a condition for a presidential medal of freedom. this is a sudden fall from grace for a coach who over the past 46 seasons has become an icon on campus and across college sport. paterno and penn state's president axed as the university tries to sever ties with top officials who can be accused of not taking seriously enough major child sex abuse scandal on campus. jerry sandusky faces charge his buss at least eight boys over a 15-year period. two other former officials are charged with lying about what they knew and failing to report child sex abuse to the police.

penn state's new interim football coach today called it a bitter-sweet moment. >> first off, i grieve for the victims. i grieve for the families. deeply saddened by that. it's with great emotion that i say that. you know, the football part, we will get working on that right away. >> protest and wry yotsirioting place last night. from state college pennsylvania, sarah, let's start, governor tom corbett wrapped up a press conference moments ago. what are the big headlines out of that? >> i think the biggest headline that came out of that was that he said that the a.g. will look -- the attorney general will look into jerry sandusky's charity the second mile, and what they knew and when they knew it. the second mile was founded by jerry sandusky in 1977, and the grand jury's presentment on the very first page says that he

used that charity to find victims that he could abuse. >> now we have the new interim coach, coach bradley. there have been questions since many of paterno's deputies have been around the program a long time, any indication, any suspicion, that coach bradley was somehow aware at leaf of the allegations? >> at the press conference he was asked that question several times. he said no comment several times, that was the advice of counsel, that he couldn't comment, especially to the question of whether or not he testified before the grand jury but he was pressed about it several more times and he did -- he did finally say he never knew about the 1998 report. remember he came on board in 1999. and later on asked about 2002 and said simply, no. >> one of the big debates has been especially after the demonstration some would say some rioting last night, whether the students are sending an insensitive message to families

of the victim. i want to read something from the article you had in the paper today, quoting the attorney advising some of coach sandusky's alleged victims, the board of trustees got it wrong, they should have consulted victims before making a decision on mr. paterno. they should have considers victims watch tv and are aware of the students' reaction and may not want to be associated with the downfall of mr. paterno. the school elected to do what was in its own best interest at the time. isn't that what put the school in this position in the first place? is it your sense that most of the victims while they want a thorough investigation did not immediately at least want coach paterno fired? >> i think what you're seeing here is a reaction to the way that people are reacting to this and basically the victims that i've talked to have said that he would rather this be a focus on them -- on the victims and what happened to them than on the scandal and kind of the circus that's surrounding it. i don't think that you know the

sister that i talked to yesterday everybody and then the statement from the attorney believed to represent victim four, you know, that -- those statements kind of bring you to believe that maybe don't agree with coach paterno's sudden departure. you know you've got to remember how much -- how loves he was on campus. and i think it's a sad day for everybody here and it's kind of hard just to grasp it and to realize that when we woke up this morning, that he wasn't the coach here anymore. >> sarah, thank you for your help reporting this dramatic story on the penn state campus. next, today's dramatic about-face on wall street. we'll ask ali velshi, what's ahead for your money. why do we have aflac...

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welcome back. the latest news you need to know how. house republicans announced the white house agreed to turn over some documents demanded under subpoena by the house panel investigating the collapse of solyndra. its bankruptcy has taxpayers on the hook for half a billion dollars. the obama administration put off for a year a decision on the route for a controversial oil pipeline from canada to texas. a rare victory for the president on capitol hill. the senate unanimously approved tax credits for businesses that hire u.s. veterans. also on the jobs front, the

first-time unemployment claims came in at a seven-month low, that pushed the dow industrials up 112 points gaining one-third of the ground lost yesterday. the broader nasdaq and s&p 500 closed up slightly. investors remain skittish over europe's debt crisis. >> so, alli velshi, a big tumbl yesterday, flat a little up today, is this what we expect for the next days and week? >> europe's the biggest trading partner for the united states and they're el wealthy countries that buy the products we make. if they are in recession, and they're close to it, they won't buy that stuff. as far as the markets go, john, i said today i want to punch the dow in the face because it upsets people, gets them worried about it and gets them away from the strategy in they need to employ. i don't want anybody's head in the sand. ultimately, it makes people sell their stocks and they sit and

miss the ups. it's upsetting. >> you and christine roman try to explain that your book "how to speak money" krchristine sai today, look at italy, greece, you see the future of the united states, that is right? >> it probably overstated it a bit. someone was saying that to christine and she was relating she heard it. the differences, in the united states the cost of borrowing money is very, very low, because we're the cleanest dirty shirt in the laundry box at the moment. so the united states can borrow money under 2% for ten years. italy, costs them more than 7%. greece, above 9%. to that's why we're not a debt crisis. we can print money. no, we're not in the same place but when we were having the debt crisis that you and i were talking about end alsoly on tv, that's what people were working at, saying why can't these guys get their act together? it's a simple solution. it's never simple went it's your country. >> thanks. tonight's number has nothing

to do with wall street but you might say it has everything to do with a declining political stock. what is it? the number is five. the number of republican debates between now and the iowa caucuses. you'll see three in des moines, sioux falls. three in iowa in december. one on saturday in south carolina. cnn has a debate here in washington, d.c., next month. five debates between now and the iowa caucuses. remember, rick perry couldn't remember three government agencies to cut last night. his rebound strategy depends on these five debates. what about the perry step in it tour? how did he do? we'll talk to one of our reporters there after the debate. rick perry's big gaffe came on herman cain's first big debate night since the sexual harassment allegations surfaced. , and i love to walk outside. osteo bi-flex has really helped my knees. osteo bi-flex has been incredible for me, and i swear by it. [ male announcer ] osteo bi-flex, the glucosamine chondroitin suppment with 5-loxin advanced.

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er"erin burnett outfront" coming up at top of the hour. you'll sit down with a ceo who takes issue with the great super committee. >> we hope it's a great super committee, right? the ceo of a manufacturing company, dave roberts from carlisle, says he not going it hire until the super committee does its job. it's proof how important these 12 people are. it's so much more important to our country's economy. we'll talk about cain cashing in. his campaign claims to have made $9 million since october 1st. and the penn state scandal. sheldon kennedy, former nhl

player abused by a coach more than 300 times and why took him to so long to come forward to shed light on the scandal now. >> looking forward to. see you soon. when you step in it, to accept rick perry's description of last night's debate, the challenge to step out of it, as quickly as possible. for governor perry that effort began immediately after the debate ended in the so-called spin room. >> i stepped in it man. yeah, it was embarrassing, of course it was. you know, when -- but here's what's more important. people understand that our principles, our conservative principles are what matter. >> cnn's peter hamby on hand and joins us auburn hills, michigan. pretty rare, especially for a major candidate to go into the spin room. give us a sense how quickly they realized they had a very big problem and needed their candidate to take the lead to

fix it? >> right. rick perry has not been a single spin room, right arc i top tier candidate doesn't come in to present the case for himself, usually the lower tiered candidates do that. we were in the spin room waiting for a senior adviser, someone like ray sullivan, for example to come in and explain things away and it took us by surprise that perry was the one that came in. i've got it say, if you're a reporter in that spin room -- excuse me that press file if you're anyone in the country looking at twitter, looking at political class online at that moment, you knew immediately this was a huge problem because it opened up all sorts of doubts about rick perry and his readiness for this fight. so, yeah, the perry campaign knew immediately they had an issue and rick perry was absolutely swafrned when he came into the press file last night. >> you mentioned the so-called smart political class. sometimes very smart, sometimes not so much, if you go back through the history books and what washington says done happen when the people on iowa or new

hampshire vote. what is your sense split your reporting among the establishment types and your contacts with conservative activists who don't necessarily listen to what the punditry says. what is their sense, the people at grassroots level of perry's survivability? >> yeah, across the board, i think you're right about the sometimes disconnect between the beltway and the rest of the country, if you talk to grassroots people, kind of county chairs, activists, tea party folks in iowa and south carolina, two states where perry needs to do well, they're amazed by this, and a lot of people are soft on perry at this point. you would not be surprised if the romney campaign got a lot of calls from former perry donors. the donor class, this raises big problems for rick perry, how does rick perry walk into a room with donors? he's on a fund-raising swing through tennessee, going to mississippi next week to raise money. he's got to walk into the room and say eemi'm a credible candie

after that moment. both among donors, i can tell you from who i've talked to and grassroots activists this has opened up a lot of questions and freeze rick perry in the polls and maybe drop him a little bit. >> he'll have to polish up the cowboy boots quite shiny. appreciate the reporting. governor perry's big gaffe came as herman cain took the stage for the first time since facing alleges of sexual harassment. donna brazile, gloria borger. before we start the conversation, i want to play a snippet, 51 seconds governor perry's gaffe and it was a pretty good gaffe. play the beginning so people get a sense of, forgive me governor, this deer in the headlights moment. >> three agencies of government when i get there that are gone, commerce, education and the -- what's the third one there? let's see. >> john, especially to forget energy for a guy who is most of

his economic speeches have been about the importance of energy, you know, all candidates make mistakes. but could this candidate when the knock on him was he can't debate, could he afford that one? how do you recover? >> he's made several big mistakes. the first mistake, the first debate talked about the ponzi scheme, then the immigration issue. credibility is important. he could possibly win, he's electable. the problem is that each one of the debates credibility's diminished, he's got a heck of a hard raising money from big donors. he's right, donors will go somewhere else. peter's right. it's a problem for rick perry. >> i want to sow yhow you the dynamic of the republican race from the beginning. you know mitt romney, he's got the money, he's got the establishment across the country, he's your establishment candidate, he's one of the front-runners and not the front-runner. then this roller coaster of who's the anybody but romney

candidate? it was this guy, donald trump, maybe he was the alternative. see you later, bye. then it was michele bachmann, after a great debate performance in june. she took that spot. she was the conservative alternative. then she has plummeted. governor perry, when he got into the race, jumped immediately not into a tie but passing romney in a national polls and he was it, great conservative hope, as john noted, early debates, policy issue likes immigration, see you later by. this guy, can he survive, herman cain, now the conservative alternative to mitt romney. and the question is how does this play out 54 days until iowa if you look there. cain and romney in a tie. perry way down here. i can't find any republican who says he better get up and here and win iowa or come close second if he wants to survive. 54 days out. 61 days away, romney is the runway favorite in the state of new hampshire. and then south carolina comes after that. i'm going to stop here.

romney, cain, perry again down here in fourth place, as i walk back over, donna you're a democrat but you've been through the nominating contests on the republican side if romney's here, perry's here, he's's got ron paul, newt gingrich, track. do you see it as feasible? >> look, john, there's so much volatility on the republican side. i'm not surprised that rick perry stepped on his message. he stepped on his economic message going back to the birth controversy. you know, it's very difficult for a democrat to sit down right now and say, okay, it's romney. it may be romney. but who else? rick perry stepped on his message yesterday. >> you're a friend of peter, he's a good guy, he just wrote a memo, one year out, gloria, and he's talking about romney. in a primary head to head against cain if you had a one on

one, the gop runoff becomes a dead heat. the fact that cain has almost half of the primary vote even after the allegations of sexual abuse surfaced underscores that the challenge to romney is nailing down the tea party base. also shows the down to earth, play spoken approach of cain ties into the mood of the moment. >> cain is likable, you know, cain is the most likable candidate out there and that's one of the reasons he remains high in the field. i think while all of this is good for romney, right, it's pretty good to have all these people self-destructing, if he doesn't start increasing in the polls pretty soon among all republicans above that sort of 25% threshold, people are going to say, wait a minute, why isn't romney able to take advantage of all these problems the other campaigns are having. >> winning sometimes helps. more on cain's performance in the debate last night and his image and also a fascinating question, a fascinating question. he's been in office nearly three

years now. ask voters what president obama stands for and many draw a blank. that's a big problem. next.

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peter hart. listen to this, the challenge here is not whether a specific element is wrong with barack obama's image but that he does not have one single image. he is everyone and no one. even during the first year, voters had an uncertainty about how strong his backbone was. in 2010, it was a sense of whether he connected with them. the challenge is not that people are put off by him but that they are not certain whom he is. interesting place to rejoin the conversation. republican john feary, democrat donna brazile, our analyst gloria borger. the vagueness is a problem. >> we have seen more of barack obama than we've seen of most of our other recent presidents. during his first year in office, he seemed to be at every ribbon cutting and people were complaining, maybe you're seeing him too much. but we know him less well even though he's been so visible to the american people --

>> how can that be, donna? >> i think it's difficult in this new technology age where people can tweet and then, you know, demonize you on one hand, affable -- look, i think press obama is likable, he's pragmatic, he's honest. think of it this way, john, if you came over, you and i could really get down with some ribs and chicken. if obama came over, i would definitely go with a salad. >> i'm not coming over with you then. >> peter hart describes this as a problem for the president in the sense you want to have a clear, single identity, you want people to think of you as one thing. is it also, though, a flip side of the problem, if you're trying to go after the president in deciding where to hit him, to pick one vulnerability? >> i think where republicans will hit him is largely on the economy, has it worked, has what he's done worked for me, worked for the middle class, worked for people out of work, and the answer is no, it hasn't worked. the lack of strong leadership works against president obama. if he's out there really vetoing

bills, saying the republicans stand down, getting really involved in negotiations, showing strong leadership, putting his nail on the line, he'd be a strong leader. unfortunately, that's not what's going on. he's going to be in bali when the super committee's supposed to report. that's not strong leadership. >> if he runs against mitt romney, he's going to say people don't know who romney is. >> the day before veterans day, i think everybody will remember bin laden is dead. >> that's an excellent point to make but we'll see if foreign policy matters in the election. last night's debate, rick perry's gaffe is what we're talking about. but it was cain's first debate since all these allegations of sexual harassment surfaced. first he said he would not allow himself to be tried in the court of public opinion. then he said in the fashion of his fund-raising, he thinks people are voting with their wallets. listen. >> over the last nine days, the voters have voted with their --

and they're saying they don't care about the character assassination, they care about leadership and getting this economy growing and all the other problems we face. >> he also offered an apology today. he said he was apologizing because reporters kept asking him about it during a discussion about repealing obama care, saying this. >> legislation has already been written, hr-3,000. in the press congress, it was hr 3,400. what that does, it's already been written. we didn't hear about it in the previous congress because princess nancy sent it to committee and it stayed there, it never came out. >> princess nancy, funny line for most republicans. i'm not sure a guy facing what he's facing should be saying that. >> i don't think it was particularly smart. he was sort of forced to apologize, gave a half-hearted apology. first year of politics, when you're in a hole, stop digging. i think he dug himself a little bit in again. >> has he dug himself out? >> that's a good question. i think that, you know, he has -- with the republican base