israeli soldier jilad shalit. thanks for watching state of the union. i'm joe johns in washington. candy crowley will be here next sunday. up next for viewers in the united states, "fareed zakaria gps." this is "gps," the "global public square." welcome to our viewers in the united states and around the world, i'm fareed zakaria. we have an important show for you today. the u.s. might have exited one war this week, but it is very much in the midst of another. i will have an exclusive conversation with the leader of afghanistan, hamid karzai, on the ongoing violence in his country and how that affects the u.s. plan to draw down. then, a true all-star "gps" panel including peggy noonan and david remnick on the ever-shifting gop field, vladimir putin and the protests in russia, and the euro's chances of survival. finally, what are we bringing back from iraq?

you'll be amazed. but first, here's my take. "time" magazine announced its person of the year this week -- "the protester." from the arab spring to athens, from new delhi to new york, people power is stronger than it's ever been. and now it's reached moscow with the protests there last week. the great drama of russian history has been between its state and society. put simply, russia has always had too much state and not enough society. historians have pointed out that the russian nation was literally the property of the czar, that serfs were more like slaves than simply peasant workers as they were in europe, and that the country lacked any institutions that contested the authority of the government. the communist takeover in 1917 only enhanced these features by building a soviet superstate that dominated every aspects of people's lives. when it collapsed in 1991, it turned out there was only chaos underneath. but there has always been a

russian civil society, small but vibrant, espousing universal values and human rights. it is the russia of tolstoi and pasternak, sakharov and gorbachev, and it has always believed that russia's destiny and valuation lies with the west. this russia has not died under putin. in fact, it's been growing quietly but vigorously over the past decade. there are now more than 650,000 nongovernmental organizations in russia today. of course, the russian state isville very powerful, dominant and pervasive in politics and the economy. despite all the stirrings of change, the power of the state expertly wielded by vladimir putin should give one pause. it's not just that putin has been able to reconstitute the apparatus of fear from the soviet days, it's also about money. the russian state has at its disposal the greatest natural resources of any country in the world -- oil, gas, diamonds, nickel, copper, aluminum.

those riches give the government the ability to both repress and bribe its population. consider this fact -- despite the sweep and force of the arab spring, it has not produced political change in a single oil-rich country. the revolution started in the deserts of the magreb in tunisia. morocco was quickly swept along. but next door sits algeria, more repressive than either of them, and yet untouched by proift. it might be called -- protests. it might be called the arab spring but it began a year and a half earlier in a non-arab country, iran, when the green movement took to the streets. but the iran yan regime which buys support with patronage and prepresses with -- represses with its military resists. the states have resisted the winds of change, even in bahrain where the opposition enjoys strong support. if russia's civil society can produce even modest changes against these odds, it will rewrite history. for more on this, you can read my column in this week's "time"

magazine. let's get started. ♪ joining me now from kabul, the president of afghanistan, hamid karzai. president karzai, thank you very much for joining me. >> welcome. good to talk to you. >> the secretary of defense, leon panetta, recently said nato forces, the international coalition, is winning in afghanistan. do you believe that is an accurate statement? >> well, the international coalition and the afghan government have been able to provide in the past ten years political stability to

afghanistan. the overall stability of afghanistan and the presence of afghanistan as a state, as a nation state, in the international community. but we have not been able, the united states and afghanistan government together, have not been able to provide the people with their individual personal security. that is yet to come. >> do you believe that you have broken some of the momentum that the taliban had gained in previous years? that 2011 has marked a shift in that regard? >> i can say that this year in terms of the overall mobile and activity of the taliban and other groups has been slower, and we have been more effective. but i'll have to wait a bit

longer to confirm that we have reversed the trend and that the afghan people will see the fruits of our efforts and see peace and further security. >> now in iraq as you know, american forces are going down essentially to zero. but that is not what your plan is for the relationship between afghanistan and the united states. am i correct, you would like to see a residual american force? >> we are negotiating with the united states toward enduring partnership. that may bring about the presence of some u.s. troops in afghanistan for the duration of the agreement that we reach with support to afghanistan, with training and equipping the afghan forces, all of that will be there. but we'll have to wait for the agreement and the specifics of it. >> the one area where you have

had a great deal of criticism for nato forces and for the united states has been the so-called night raids. the admiral, former admiral william mcraven says they are essential and important. you say that this is what is feeding the hostility to foreign forces. where do things stand? do you have a commitment from the united states that these night raids will end or not? >> well, this has been one of the issues between us for a long time. something that we have raised an objection to for almost eight years now. we want afghanistan's homes, afghanistan's villages, to be protected, to be safe from such attacks. that understanding is there, but the specifics of these

operations have not been developed yet. but what we are asking for in very specific and clear terms, that is no foreign forces should enter afghan homes. >> let me ask you about the political settlement that needs to come it in order for some of the violence to decline. you have said that the negotiations with the taliban have essentially come to a standstill ever since the murder, the assassination of mr. ra rabani, who was your negotiator. and something in an vancouver that i thought was absolutely striking, is that you said, look, we don't know whom to negotiate with, we don't know whom the right person is. we don't have contact with the taliban. the pakistani government is the only group that has contact with them. they have to tell us whom to negotiate with. is it really from your

experience, is it pretty clear that at the end of the day it is the pakistani government that has that kind of connection with the taliban? >> well, our efforts for peace, our cries for peace, our understanding of peace was that we were talking to the taliban. the assassination of president ra rabbani brought us in a shock to the recognition that we were actually talking to nobody. that those who came in the name of the peace process were asassins, were killers, were terrorists rather than negotiators. a man who came in the name of a

messenger for peace turned out to be a suicide bomber. therefore, we have now clearly said that we will welcome a taliban address, but that address must have the clarity that this representative is authorized and is representing the taliban movement as we see it. the question of pakistan is important here because we all know that the taliban have their places there. they operate from there. and a meaningful peace process cannot go well or end in satisfactory results without pakistan's participation and help. >> let me tell you, mr. president, about an interview i did with former president musharraf a few months ago. i asked him specifically about whether or not he believed that you were somebody who could be partnered with and trusted. and as you know, he is still

quite influential within the pakistani military establishment. and he essentially said no. what would be your response to that? >> well, i -- i said pakistan is a twin brother, and president musharraf when he was the president had a fairly good working relationship with us. and i have respect for him. and i think the trust between the two nations is something that's the verdict of -- of history and one that we need to have among us. >> you're a better diplomat than he is, mr. president. >> oh, i'm -- he's a capable person, too. very capable. >> mr. president, if you could just hold on a minute, we will be back. and when we're back, we will have more of this conversation with president hamid karzai about afghanistan, pakistan, the american drawdown.

but also a troubling case -- a woman who was raped and then sentenced to 12 years for being the victim of a rape. when we come back. there are people in afghanistan who believe this woman should marry the man who raped her. do you think that that is appropriate? the employee of the month is...

spark card from capital one. spark cash gives me the most rewards of any small business credit card. it's hard for my crew to keep up with 2% cash back on every purchase, every day. 2% cash back. that's setting the bar pretty high. thanks to spark, owning my own business has never been more rewarding. [ male announcer ] introducing spark the small business credit cards from capital one. get more by choosing unlimited double miles or 2% cash back on every purchase, every day. what's in your wallet? this guy's amazing.

and we are back. joining me from kabul, the president of afghanistan, hamid karzai. do you worry that you're in a new and dangerous spiral with this most recent attack on afghanistan's shia population? the terrible terrorist attack which appears again to be traced back to pakistan. in fact, the pakistani group has taken credit for it. this is new as far as i can tell -- a very marked sectarian attack on afghanistan, on the shia population in afghanistan. is this -- you know, is this a portend for something worse to

come? >> the attack on our people by the group a few days ago was a clear act of terrorism against people. it was anti-islam. it was anti-human being. afghanistan has evidence in history -- this was the first time in our country that an attack of that nature took place. the taliban condemned it. but reportedly the group claimed responsible. we're not saying that this is pakistan. we say that this is the terrorist group. if it is, then flag perhaps it's the responsibility of pakistan and all all of us together to stop this. >> there's a woman named golnaz

who, as you know, was sentenced to prison for 12 years after it was reported that her cousin's husband raped her. she was then freed because of your personal action. the great concern of human rights activists in the west and in afghanistan i should say is that particularly once the international forces withdraw and perhaps have less of a day-to-day involvement, that this kind of events will happen day after day after day in afghanistan. why is this kind of thing happening in afghanistan? >> well, when i came to office and upon coming to know of this, i convened a judicial meeting in which the issue was discussed in detail. and the right inquiries made. we -- on advise from vice -- on

advice from the chief justice and administrative justice we decided this was a case of, perhaps, misjudgment. and that it has to be resolved and resolved by giving her a pardon immediately. that's what i did. >> there are people in afghanistan -- >> to the future, i can assure -- to the future, to the future i can assure you that afghanistan has a long tradition of judicial applications. it's a country that has been troubled a lot, but it is also an old country with -- with laws and a penal code and judicial history. i can assure you that once the international forces are with drawn and not as many as they are today, afghanistan will neither go to a trouble within

the country or strive to miscarriage of justice. i can assure of that. >> there are people in afghanistan who believe this woman, gulnaz, should marry the man who raped her. do you think that that is appropriat appropriate? >> well, it's her choice. it's up to her to decide who to marry and who not to marry. >> mr. president -- >> and islam gives her that right. >> let me ask you finally, mr. president, 2014 is not just the date that is slated for the drawdown of foreign forces, it is also the date that your presidency expires. what is going to happen then to hamid hamid karzai? will you run again? >> yes, elections will be there

and a new president will be elected by the afghan people, and i will live as a former president and a citizen of afghanistan. >> you will live in afghanistan? >> absolutely. >> and do you believe -- >> this is my home. >> and do you believe by that time there will be some deal with the taliban? that their will be some kind of political settlement? >> i hope so. i hope so. i hope very, very much. that's what i've been working on with great dedication for the last many years. i hope that will be the case, and i hope we'll have a complete peace in this country. >> president karzai, as always, a pleasure. >> great pleasure to talk to you. all the best wishes. >> thank you. [ chanting ] tdd# 1-800-345-2550 let's talk about the personal attention

tdd# 1-800-345-2550 you and your money deserve. tdd# 1-800-345-2550 at charles schwab, that means taking a close look at you tdd# 1-800-345-2550 as well as your portfolio. tdd# 1-800-345-2550 we ask the right questions, tdd# 1-800-345-2550 then we actually listen to the answers tdd# 1-800-345-2550 before giving you practical ideas you can act on. tdd# 1-800-345-2550 so talk to chuck online, on the phone, tdd# 1-800-345-2550 or come in and pull up a chair.

is the pain reliever orthopedic doctors recommend most for arthritis pain, think again. and take aleve. it's the one doctors recommend most for arthritis pain... two pills can last all day. ♪

last week marked exactly ten years since the term "brick" was coined. the catchy acronym for brazil, russia, india, and china used to describe the new powerhouse emerging markets. but the man who invented the moniker now says one of the four has been a great disappointment.

no, not russia with all its recent troubles, not brazil whose economy contracted in the last quarter, and certainly not china which continues to power on. goldman sachs' jim o'neil says the country that has been the biggest letdown has been india. he pointed out last week that india's inability to attract foreign investment could actually lead to a balance of payments crisis. from bric to basketcase, what in the world is going on? some numbers tell a troubling story. growth has dipped to 7% for the first time in two years. the indian rupee is asia's worst performing occurrency this year, falling to a historic low against the dollar. india's deficits are soaring, and funding is drying up. india received less than $20 billion in foreign direct investment in the first six months of 2011. china got three times that amount. even russia with the smaller gdp took in more. why is india struggling?

sadly, the real problem isn't economics. india has a very dynamic private sector, probably the most dynamic in the emerging markets. but it has a government that simply doesn't work. and it's not for lack of knowledge. india has the know-how. the government is, after all, led by a reform-minded world-class economist, prime minister hussein. the problem is politics. the world's largest democracy seems to be paralyzed. singh's government recently announced a plan to open up india's retail sector to foreign investors. a continuation of the reforms that jumpstarted the economy 20 years ago. the proposal would have made it easier for big western chains like walmart to set up shop in india. now indian agriculture is hugely inefficient. middlemen take huge cuts. and because supply chains are inefficient, up to 1/3 of farm products, vegetables for example, rot before they reach the market. so the walmart model would transform india's agriculture

and its retail sectors. it would empower farmers, lower prices for consumers, and create huge gains in productivity. but it was not to be. india's opposition turned this into a story of the big guy fighting the little guy, walmart versus the mom and pop. parliament was gridlocked for days, and politicians mobilized mass demonstrations. [ chanting ] >> small stores across the country were kept closed and in protest. so what does the government do? instead of standing firm, it backtracked and canceled plans to reform the retail sector altogether. this is a depressingly familiar pattern. for two years now, india's government has done nothing, hanging on to power, presenting no plans to open up the economy, raise living standards, build infrastructure, or attract new investment. in the west, india's leaders sell the story of a dynamic, incredible india. ♪ india ♪ incredible india

>> but at home, they pander to populist protectionist sentiment and dole out subsidies and do basically nothing. and that paralysis is hurting the economy. india's blessing and curse is that it has a messy, chaotic, decentralized democracy. unlike china, it has no unified se sense of direction. but the prevailing view has often been that when the going gets tough, new delhi gets its act together. that's what it did 20 years ago when it was on the brink of defaulting in a balance of payments crisis. well, this time once again, it's time for urgent reform. new delhi has for years expressed pride in being part of the brics. well, if it doesn't get its act together, ten years from now, people might still be praising the brics except that the "i" in bric might stand for indonesia, not india. and we'll be back. we have an all-star panel looking at american politics,

russia's protests, and europe's woes. stay with us. ♪ [ male announcer ] a simple gesture can spark romance anytime. and when it does, men with erectile dysfunction can be more confident in their ability to be ready with cialis for daily use. cialis for daily use is a clinically proven low-dose tablet you take every day so you can be ready anytime the moment's right, even if it's not every day. [ man ] tell your doctor about all your medical conditions and medications and ask if your heart is healthy enough for sexual activity. don't take cialis if you take nitrates for chest pain,

as this may cause an unsafe drop in blood pressure. [ man ] do not drink alcohol in excess with cialis. side effects may include headache, upset stomach, delayed backache or muscle ache. to avoid long-term injury, seek immediate medical help for an erection lasting more than 4 hours. if you have any sudden decrease or loss in hearing or vision, stop taking cialis and call your doctor right away. [ male announcer ] ask your doctor if cialis for daily use is right for you. for a 30-tablet free trial offer, go to cialis.com.

long-lasting, too. yeah, i could really use this silverado. deer. fish. fantastic. ♪ this holiday, chevy's giving more. now qualified buyers can get 0% apr for 72 months on a 2011 chevy silverado. or 0% apr financing for 60 months plus no monthly payments until spring. ♪ [ whooping ] ♪ it was the best day ♪ it was the best day ♪ ♪ it was the best day ♪ 'cause of you we make a great pair. huh? progressive and the great outdoors! we make a great pair. right, totally. that's what i was thinking. all kinds of vehicles, all kinds of savings. multi-policy discounts from progressive. call or click today.

now time for a check of today's top stories. former czech president havel has died. havel was one of the leading anti-communist dissidents of the 1970s and '80s. havel was 75. clashes between pro-democracy protesters in egypt and the country's security forces are occurring for a third consecutive day. the recent wave of violence which began friday has left at

least ten people dead and 500 injured. the death toll from a tropical storm that deluged the southern philippines has risen to more than 500. the philippine red cross says another 500 people are missing after entire villages were swept away. the survivors in the hardest hit areas are coping with no electricity and a lack of clean drinking water. over 500 palestinian prisoners are scheduled to be released from israeli prisons later today. it's the second phase of a prisoner swap that began in october with the freeing of israeli soldier jilad shalit. an early winter storm is brewing in the southwestern u.s. that's expected to bring blizzard conditions and heavy snow to the southern high plains tomorrow. the national weather service has issued a winter storm warning for new mexico, the panhandles of texas and oklahoma, southeastern colorado, and southern kansas. those are your top stories.

now back to "fareed zakaria gps." there's much to talk about around the world. so let's get straight to our terrific "gps" panel today. joining me, author, reporter, radio host, kurt anderson who wrote the cover story for this week's "time" person of the year cover. peggy noon yoon, the "wall street journal" columnist. "the new yorker's" editor, david remnick, and gillian tett, editor of "the financial times." we have to start with unewt. everybody's talking about him -- >> newt who? >> you had a column -- i loved this. you talk good a friend who devises bumper stickers for state and had a bumper sticker that said "california -- it's all true." meaning everything you hear about california is true. and your bumper sticker is, "newt -- it's all true." explain. >> well, he's a very sort of character. there's a lot going on there. he is -- i mean, if you ask is this man experienced and accomplished, yes.

is he intelligent, yes. is he erratic, yes. is he herky-jerky and drawn to eccentric, arguably, ideas, yes. has he known great success as a leader, yes. has he failed as a leader, yes. there's a heck of a lot going on there. he's a heck of a dramatic package. in a way, i think he's the first possible president about whom too much is known. normally we don't know quite enough. but this is way too much information. >> what do you think? >> it's a good point. the question is, of those things that we know, where about his personal life or about his chaotic intellectual life or about his quickness on a debate stand, is any of it disqualifying? you watched that last debate, and he tore the guts out of romney when he said, of course you're not a career politician, you lost to ted kennedy in 1994. good point. and then at the same time, he says that palestinians are an invented people, which is a really slimy remark. we're all invented peoples, most

of us on this globe -- americans, israeli, palestinians, and he knows that. but what he's doing is doing something extremely cynical. and he's full of these moves. and the question is -- is he really emerging as somebody truly popular, or does the republican party keep putting up one non-romney after another? i think it's the latter. >> let me make the case for naught -- >> good luck. >> he is intelligent, he's attracted to a lot of ideas. a lot of ideas, by the way, that are not particularly friendly on the right. i think the right will be surprised the more they look into all the things he's been fascinated by, he has an eclectic mind. people say he hasn't been disciplined. this guy's been 15 years on the national stage. >> but he has a third grade temper. >> but he's weathered it all. how do you manage to do it? how many former speakers do you know who are still at the center of american political life? this guy has managed to endure through all that. i mean, he's written books -- >> and i think the embrace of

newt is also evidence for this yearning for something that looks authentic and something that surprises occasionally. as opposed, say, to mitt romney, the presumptive. >> when newt makes a gaffe in the context of the republican primary, views on immigration, it's never that he's trying to pander. it's the opposite. he's expressing his own views, and you know that they're heartfelt, but they may not be popular. >> no. he's pandering plenty. the palestinians as an invented people was a pander to a certain part of the base. the immigration stuff, it's all thought through. i think newt always thinks like our current president that he's playing a higher, longer game. and i think in a way that can -- i don't think it's so genuine. >> the issue is whether the american people are looking for ideas or looking for execution. newt is clearly an ideas machine. he's very entertaining. at the end of the day, america's facing huge challenges which

will require execution. and that really is what the contest between romney and newt's about right now. >> i'm not even sure they're ideas that are ideas -- the synchronicity is not there. if you catalog his ideas over time, they include health's healing chairs and honeymoons on mars and a had the of other biz bizarro things. that i don't think the american people when they're judging who they want as president of the united states will consider ideas that have anything to do with anything. >> one part of the republican primary that interests me is the search for a way to attack obama on foreign policy. and it's been tough because osama bin laden and gadhafi and, you know, the move -- the trip to asia seemed to go well. so israel has become this one area where you can show this -- you know, undying frailty. this moment where in the republican debate -- no, in the conference, the republican jewish conference, they each were trying to show just how

committed they were. then michele bachmann trumps them by saying, i went to a kibitz when i was 18. >> a socialist experiment, i might remind her. as a jewish american i find it disgusting. i know what he's going after. he's going after -- he's going after a small slice of jewish americans who donate to political campaigns. and also to christian evangelicals. the signalling is obvious. what they're doing is obvious. but what they're describing in terms of the, say, the palestinian/israeli conflict has no bearing on reality whatsoever. it's ignorance combined with cynical politics and irrelevance. it's really awful. it's really awful. >> do you agree? >> yeah, i do. >> gillian? >> i do. and i think that given the current moves in iran at the moment and what's happening in the region, that is likely to become more and more relevant going forward. >> and then the other place where i noticed that there is

some traction is iran. there's this feeling, again, i think somewhat unrealistically that we're going to be tougher on iran. so that gingrich says he wouldn't bomb iran, but he would effect regime change. good luck. >> good luck. >> look, ideas are one thing. knowing about complexity and dealing with complexity is quite another. i think president obama knows very, very well that this campaign is not going to be about foreign policy. it's just not. it's about the economy, the economy, the economy, and who you want in your living room, as bill clinton famously said, for the next four years. that's it. that's where the race is won and lost, been foreign policy. >> the problem is the foreign policy choices across the middle east now are complex and subtle. and it's all a hollywood idea that you have the good guys, the bad guys, the islamists, you had the americans, the west, the east, now it's really breaking down. and someone like egypt right now is absolutely highlighting the complexity and subtlety of these choices because not only do you have the muslim brotherhood that's recently come through

strongly in the polls, but you also have a much more potentially radical group of islamists coming up. and so, you know, what should america do when it looks at what's happening in egypt today? there is no single set of good guys to champion or cheer for. >> and at the same time, considering how really we're essentially beyond some lines, ignoring foreign policy, foreign policy has a way of rearing up and biting you in a way -- you know, when it's not expected. it's still huge. it's still important. and it is still an area where deep thought and sophistication are needed. >> and where the bipolar view that americans who don't really spend much time reading about, thinking about foreign policy has become less effectual and -- >> absolutely -- >> than ever given what's happened in the last year. >> and in order to prove that we mean what we say, we're going to come back and discuss foreign policy and all things foreign when we come back. they came to see us in florida...

make that alabama... make that mississippi. the best part of the gulf is wherever you choose... and now is a great time to discover it. this year millions of people did. we set all kinds of records. next year we're out to do even better. so come on down to louisiana... florida... alabama... mississippi. we can't wait to see you. brought to you by bp and all of us who call the gulf home.

and we are back with kurt anderson, peggy noonan, and

gillian tett. the germans seem to be getting more and more of what they want. they've in effect been able to get three governments repoliced, in spain, in italy, and greece. they've gotten almost every european country other than britain to sign on to the tighter fiscal union. but will that stop a crisis? don't they still need some kind of -- you know, at the end of the day the federal reserve stopped the crisis in the united states and said we sort of guarantee everything. do you need that move to take place? >> well, i don't think europe is about to blow up right now. but i think it's going to be smoldering dangerously for a long time. because essentially the germans are certainly exerting more and more authority over the area. and they have got some of what they want. but they haven't got enough to actually create a proper fiscal union of the sort that most economists think is really needed now to make the euro zone work. and you've still got a lot of tension between different countries. you've still got a lot of the resistance inside the ecb to doing what many people think it should do, which is namely

monetize, to really step in and support the program. so there are many, many questions out there. and unfortunately, that's going to continue until probably at least march because that's when they're supposed to be creating new institutions which will essentially be funding a lot of the overhaul. so it's very nasty -- >> will the markets wait until march or for the schedule. >> that is the crucial question. never mind what the equity market is doing or the euro, the really important thing is that deep inside thecocks cogs of t european financial, the machine, things are gumming up financially. and banks are finding it hard to get funds. they're going to have to raise money early next year. european government are going to have borrow a lot of money. the cost of borrowing has just jumped for italy above a level that's symbolically dangerous. so there is real concern that the cogs in the machine will gum up and essentially force some kind of resolution sooner rather than later. >> do you imagine it won't be some big event that makes things

fall or maybe things happen but some obscure thing on a thursday morning that will suddenly make everything trip in a bad way in europe? >> i think it could -- >> that's my anxiety. >> people are exhausted. i mean, people have been marched up and down the euro zone hill now dozens of times. think about the summit, the crises. this endless game of brinksmanship going on when people keep threatening thing and going to the brink and pulling back. so traders are exhausted, bankers are exhausted, politicians are exhausted. and those are risks that we'll get to, say, two days after christmas when everyone's supposedly on holiday, particularly the euro zone, and something nasty will happen. >> kurt, i have to ask you about your wonderful cover story -- >> thank you. >> so do you think that what we are witnessing right now is a kind of generalized uprising of young people, or is it -- why are so many people getting uppity all at the same time? >> well, it's hard to think that it isn't some -- a social network contagion.

and i don't mean a social network in the necessarily in the new facebook/twitter sense. but in the sociological sense that has been for some time. you know, it overwhelmingly, in protest after protest -- obviously the stakes are different in syria than they are in oakland. but they are by and large middle-class people. the more educated members of their society who are -- have reached a sense of grimness about the prospects of their country, their democracies, their personal likelihood live decided in this contagious way to get off the couch and take out the earplugs and express complaints out in the streets. >> what do you think? is it -- what i'm struck by is it's happening in dictatorships, but it's happening in democracies. lots of established democracies. >> yes. i think we're in an age of -- we both know this and don't notice it fully. we're in an age of the overthrow

of establishments, period. as americans, we are always moved by the stirrings of others toward freedom, and we understand what's going on in america against establishments. but it is also true, and my great concern is that this inherently makes the world less stable. i am old enough -- maybe we all are, too, to appreciate stability. particularly in the age we're living in with extraordinary weapons and independent actors and free agents of all sorts. it seems there's a difference in the desire for change and the desire in an unfabstable feelin world to keep things as -- >> and the history for the last 200 years and more. >> it is -- >> but i think destabilization

can be thrilling and useful and necessary. if we're destabilizing the idea of a radical income equality in the united states of america, if we're destabilizing the idea in russia of brutal authoritarian rule, if we're destabilizing the include of a mubarak military rule of egypt, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, then that kind of destabilization, as perilous as it can be in the short term, as unnerving as it can be to some in the short term is necessary and real and right. >> yeah, but there's a little rough beast that's our come around at last -- >> well, the rough beast in russia, where i just was, is to have 50,000 people on the streets protesting against a cleptocracy at the top -- >> sure -- >> about somebody who -- >> excessive bullying regime. >> then it's absolutely necessary. you know what the motto is in russia on the streets? evolution, not revolution. >> and that is a critical issue

because it's better to have constant small adjustments rather than to try and repress change in the name of stability. and eventually you create more instability when there's an explosion. you've seen that -- exactly. >> yes. there's a whole range of rhetoric on the street. but in the end, what this did was reawaken the people that needed reawakening, all of us, on what has happened to our country in terms of radical income in equality. >> and by the way, here as in europe, no one-size-fits-all silver bullet marxist dream is being proposed to solve the problems. which one of the heart noting things is -- >> the fact that people on the street are reading jizac or gramshi, whoever it may be -- >> and ron paul -- >> nine. l -- fine. i don't think we'll see that revolution in the united states of america. if we do see increasingly legislation and a political awareness at least to the change in what we're talking about,

that is all to the good. and who else was doing it before occupy wall street? >> and coming to david's point. in the case in russia, you do have quite a rag-tag group of people who were actually coming out at the moment. but they are to a surprising degree, middle class, what th ththey -- they're middle age and getting involved and asking for evolution if you like in terms of political development. >> and on that note, we're going to have to end. thank you very much. kurt anderson, gillian tett, david remnick, peggy noonan. what was the poem peggy was quoting? go to our web site to get the answer. we will be back.

our question this week from the "gps" challenge -- which country crowned a new king last week? is it, a, bhutan, b, malaysia, c, tonga, d, liechtenstein? stay tuned and we'll tell you the correct answer. go to cnn.com/gps for ten more questions. while you're there, check out our web site, the globalpublicsquare. find interviews and takes by our experts refreshed every day.

don't forget, you can follow us on twitter and facebook. this week's book of the week is steven koch's "struggle for egypt." a sweeping struggle of egypt with a vivid final chapter describing the country's revolution. the single best book to read about egypt right now. i thought i knew a lot about the country. i learned a lot reading this book. now for the "last look." when you send 1.5 million soldiers through a war zone, when you spend $800 billion on an effort, when you have 505 military bases or outposts in a country, when you have untold tens of millions of pieces of equipment in the nation, moving day is going to be even more challenging than it usually is. and so it is as the u.s. military pulls out of iraq. some of the bases are beingets are fitted for civilian -- being retrofitted for civilian use. this camp was once a detention center. now it's a hotel. i hike what the decorator did with the barbed wire, a nice

touch. most of the equipment wasn't worth shipping back, so some of it has been sold. there was apparently ample interest from neighboring nations in surplus u.s. military equipment. and some of it by a recent count, 2.4 million pieces of equipment worth at least $250 million have just been given away to the iraqis. but there's one piece that is not being left behind. this is the prison cell where saddam hussein was held until he was hanged. and you see the dings in the back wall -- that's where his toilet was. that artifact bizarrely is being proudly brought to america where apparently it will be displayed in a museum. for this week's "gps" challenge question, we asked you which country crowned a new king last week. the correct answer was b, malaysia. the 81-year-old ascended the throne this week of it is his second stint as a king. the first was in the 1970s. malaysia has a unique system where nine