our coverage continues right now. thanks, anderson. it's been an extraordinary night. let me come back to a few in a moment. more on newt gingrich's victory in south carolina, mitt romney, rick santorum and ron paul.

>> well, he was right. this is going to be armageddon

and i'm going to win. he didn't just win by a small margin, he had a thumping victory tonight. someone told me that your fathe tonight. a lot of what dad does is through service to his country. and again he's got a very clear vision of what he wants to go with the american people ex-understands we're in a crisis situation and he's the only candidate including the president who cuts spending, consult welfare and cut fand u fnding and he did this about with a democratic president. i's governed before and he knows he can govern again.

>> what did you think of the interview that his ex-wife gave? i know that you and he both tried to get abc not to run it and were unsuccessful. in the end, it doesn't look like it damaged him but how did you feel on a personal level to see such an incredibly personal interview attacking your father in that way? >> it well, we have -- i haven't actually seen it, but i can tell you that of course in these times when it is heated things come out of the blue. you don't expect it, but the reality is, the people of south carolina were not interested. they knew who they wanted to be leading the charge. they do elect presidents here. and they knew who has the capability and the background and the capacity to go toe-to-toe with barack obama. and they made a statement and that's what we're here to celebrate. >> do you think that your father is a reformed character? he certainly tells me that he is, and you've told me last week

that you felt he was. do you feel that he really is genuinely a different man now to the man that he was maybe in his 30s and 40s? >>, absolutely. i mean, several things have happened since then. he's owned several small businesses, he created successful businesses. he's had two grandchildren. he's gotten closer to god, his faith is deeper and stronger. i see that through interactions with him. on the campaign trail, the man he is today is much more patient, much, much more interested in listening to people, and he really is -- when hetalks about why he's running, he is so authentic. he's running for president because he knows he's the leader we need. i'm proud of him because he's on the campaign trail working very hard because he knows that america needs a real leader with courage. and my dad is that guy. >> i did another interview with

former president jimmy carter this week in which he accused your father pretty directly of using what he described as subtle racial terminology to whip up support. how did you feel when you heard that? because your father certainly had a whack at jimmy carter tonight so he clearly wasn't very happy about it. >> well, our father is very much equal opportunity in the realm of his heart. i can't imagine anyone who actually knows him having any room to even discuss the fact of whether or not he has an issue with race. that is not the man we know, and the fact of the matter is, we love the man who wants everyone to have a job, everyone to have a better job, and everyone to have the opportunity to own the job. that's the america we loove and that's our father. >> now, you managed to, between all of you, persuade rick perry to come on board and got his endorsement. who's next for your predatory clutches? who are you targeting? >> i love the way you frame that

question. we obviously are very thrilled with governor perry's decision. >> thankful. >> he's a wonderful guy. he's a real american hero. he served in the military. he's a very good governor. he's -- my father thinks very highly of him. we're thrilled for his endorsement. he's going to lead the tenth amendment project. we're welcome to anyone who wants to join the conservative movement. we really are about people returning the power to the people, not to government. that's what dad's all about. sto we'll wait and see who's next. >> i believe this may be the first time your father's had an outright state victory in his i lustrous career. i would imagine this would give him a huge amount of increased energy driving into florida, but he knows in florida it will be one hell of a battle with mitt romney. i imagine whatever the upside of armageddon is, i can't imagine what that would be, whatever it is it's going to rain down on your father's head.

what do you think his strategy will be in florida? >> well, i happen to be from florida now. i've been in the miami area for over a decade. i can tell you that my father has worked diligently for many, many years to include the hispanic as far as every part of his being. there's been an inclusion component in our campaign fryer to our campaign. we have volunteers and staff at all levels in the hispanic community. th thal be a component. we can't match romney it dollar for dollar, but romney can't match barack obama if he gets there. this isn't about a dollars game but this is about people understanding the ideas and the solution and courage our father has, the fact he has a history of governing successfully. that he promised when they came together tand produced the congress of america they would vote on those tenets. they did within the first hundred days. he delivers on his promises. once that message is out loud and clear, i think we'll have a very good chance of at least

holding our own, and this is going to be a long race. this is not just florida. there are many, many more states out there. >> and final question, laladies. where's the party snont i can get the last flight out of here and join you. >> that's exactly right. we're in the hilton in columbia. we have a great dj. we're having a lot of fun. people are very excited. they've worked very hard here in south carolina. we're so thankful for the people here in south carolina that once again have picked the right man to be the president and the nominee nominee. >> well, a great night to be a gingrich. have a great night. >> thank you, piers. so some of the biggest smiles of the night. has tonight's big win for gingrich reset the presidential race? with that, my colleagues. woel come back, guys. >> thank you of i was just reminding myself it was after new hampshire i was with you in atlanta there at the mother ship as we call it, and it seemed

then like this race was nearly over. this was mitt romney two for two, ahead in all the poefls in south carolina and we really thought this might be the beginning of a very, very quickened to the race. now knit romney is not even two for two. he's back to one out of three. santorum won in iowa and now gingrich we see not just winning tonight but actually thumbing romney to second place. everything's changed, hasn't it? >> it certainly has. i think there's no doubt and i think it's going to be a race because florida, you know, ten days between now and january 31st, piers, a lot could ham. here's one thing that i think is definitely going to happen. there is going to be an enormous amount of attack add tiedzing in the major media markets in flori florida. you're going to see a tremendous amount of those super pac negative attack ads coming in.

millions and millions and millions of dollars. it worked against neuwewt in io. we'll see about florida. the other thing we know will happen next monday night and thursday night, two major republican debates. we'll have the cnn debate next thursday night in jacksonville, florida. and all of us know how powerful these debates have been. so ten days is a lifetime in politics. anything could happen between now and january 31st. >> it certainly is. john king, what's fascinating to me about this is i was told, look, when it gets to south carolina, the evangelical south will rally against newt gingrich because of all the baggage, the marriages, all the stuff you got into with him in the debate in spectacular fashion. and yet the opposite seemed to happen. it seemed to rally him to say, you know, don't judge me on my past. i'm here for the future. and he seems to have won that debate pretty comprehensively. his ex-wife goes on television

with what in normal circumstances could have been an incredibly damaging interview, and it seemed to just galvanize his vote any higher. >> as that sinks in, we'll see if there's any impact, as the character questions sink in with the vote err. you can count on santorum and romney getting more into the character debate. they'll start with ethics but start to backhand into personal character. an important point, evangelical voters in a state with 9.9% unemployment, they were voting more on passion and unemployment. this was a dramatic shift, could be a game-changer if it continues. south carolina coming to the conclusion they believe newt gingrich has the right disappearance to be the republican nominee. that has been romney's argument, don't put a washington insider, put a governor, business pman. hurt by newt gingrich. who can best beat barack obama? that's the number one concern among republicans, especially

conservati conservatives. south carolina, they are hungry for someone who is debate fiercely, passionately against barack obama and hopefully beat him. that has been the strength of the romney argument all along, a majority of south carolina republicans tonight say they think gingrich is a better candidate. gingrich is winning big so in some ways you discount those numbers. but if you can carry anything like that, that he's the better experienced to be president, the better candidate to beat obama, it if he can carry that forward in florida, romney has problems. >> gloria, let's talk about mitt romney. this has been a bad night for him. >> terrible. >> it's been a bad week. i thought that his performances in the debates were pretty lackluster. he looked weak on this whole tax issue. he should have just come out and come clean i think. and now he's under real attack. and he doesn't seem to have a change of gear where as gingrich looks really fired up. >> right. i mean, romney needs to have a change of gear. i think what the campaign discovered is inevitability is

not a great campaign strategy. i don't think they'll talk about that, about how electable he is anymore. i think what you'll see is a different, finely-tuned mitt romney. they realize they can't have all the surrogates attacking gingrich. that romney has to take it to gingrich directly. i think we saw a little bit of that tonight in his speech, but what they're going to talk about is the fact that newt beginning riv rich is a lobbyist, someone who lobbied, as they say, for freddie mac. when you look at the value of housing and how it it's declined in the state of florida, they'll go after him on that. they'll also say he ace out of tuch with the touch with the republican party. that he called the budget right wing social engineering, something that almost every house republican voted for, you know. so they're also going to say that he's unreliable, that he's erratic, that you need somebody who is steadier at the helm and who can be depended upon to beat barack obama.

because in the end it's going to be a race about who's best able to beat the president of the united states, and romney has to show in these debates coming up, including the one with wolf on thursday, that he can take it to barack obama and go the long haul with him and win for the republican party. that's what they want. >> it's going to be a fascina fascinating week. wolf, i hope you're ready to eclipse john king's current crown of best question in debate history. a lot of pressure on you now, wolf. >> i'll do my best. >> to get one over mr. king. >> thank you. i'll do my best thursday night 8:00 p.m. jacksonville, we'll all be there. >> be there. >> going to be terrific. convict gralt lai congratulations on the brilliant coverage. wolf, gloria, john, thank you all very much. when we come back, how will mitt romney and rick santorum respond to tonight's gingrich's sunch and will his winl in south carolina give him the

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the republican party doesn't demonize prosperity. we celebrate success in our party. those who pick up the weapons of the left today will find them turned against us tomorrow. that's the choice our party gives america. >> just days ago mitt romney had a solid lead in south carolina. then gingrich sturnlged in the polls. joining me to talk about what happened, a man who knows south carolina very well, spokesman for former governor mark sanford, currently the longer serving spokesman at the u.n. thanks for joining me. a big night in many ways. maybe not, though, the end of it the story for a long way because florida is looming large in every sense, isn't it? >> yeah. i think the beauty is that we have 50 state that's are very different. south carolina is a very interesting state. they usually go with the eventual gop nominee, but i think they got it wrong this time. i think for some reason there was a lot of pressure to support

newt from the media. he did a great job in the debates. he gave to the media. people like that. south carolinians like that. there are a lot of retired folks and snowbirds in south carolina. >> my sense was this, don't americans just like a politician standing up going, no! and taking on his critics, his enemies, his ex-wives, whoever it may be? they like this pugnacious style that newt gingrich has and they don't really like the fact that mitt romney is always the same paced, even tempered guy, smooth, slick businessman who may be completely detached from their world. >> i wouldn't call mitt smooth or slick. i think he's a nice guy and i think people try to make him more than just the nice guy. he needs to just be mitt, and i think he is that earnest guy who's just going to be honest. an he needs to draw attention to the fact that newt gingrich is a master of government. he's the former speaker of the house. the south carolinians i think

really liked the fact that newt said, you know, i messed up, i'm sorry. i've talked to my crater and i really wanted to move on. people like that. i think americans want to forgi forgive. bull in ten days we have a lot of snowbirds in florida, a lot of people who reflect more of all of america, all of the united states. i think you're going to see florida come around and mitt's going to be back on top and romney will be the nominee. >> but before florida we have two more debates this week and newt gingrich is really turning it on. >> he's graits. >> it's the first time where i see the debates are almost winning primaries. >> well, i think that's true. i think people want to hear a nice sound bite and newt has great ones. but in the end, i think that we've got to talk on the romney camp about electability because newt is not electable. he is absolutely not someone who's going to beat barack obama. and the more the romney people talk about that -- >> do you really believe that? >> i think it's absolutely true.

i think there's no question newt gingrich cannot beat barack obama. >> okay. fascinating observations. i'm not sure i agree with you. i thai newt gingrich has got something going for him right now, which is momentum. and in politics that can be very powerful. >> the only thing i can say is iowa and new hampshire he was fourth and fifth. yes, he did well in south carolina but now we have a big state. he doesn't have a lot of money. florida is about who has a ground game, operations game. one last point is, mitt romney 2008 got 15% of the vot$2008 go. he double his voting this time around. so i think a lot of people saw him and now are supporting him, more than ever. >> bring on florida. rick grunl r grun elle, thank you very much. rick santorum didn't make much of a dent in south carolina tonight. what does that mean for florida? here with me is senior santorum campaign strategist. a tough night for you guys. the gingrich surge became a reality and he stormed it. where does that leave you? >> well, actually, this was

about the second best night we could have. we certainly wanted to win south carolina. that would be great, but with newt gingrich winning that means there's been three regional primaries and three completely different winners. first time that's ever happened in the united states. it shows how wide open this is and i think it really means a lot. it shows a distinction between the three candidates. it's a great story line. you have the redemption in some sense of newt gingrich. you have mitt romney spending more money than anybody knows what to do with to basically win only one out of three and rick santorum the blue collar worker officially wening iowa. i think this is going to be a lot of fun. many more states. >> how angry are you about what happened in iowa? with tons of momentum, had you been declared the outright winners, it would have made a big difference for your ability to raise money and do more ads in south carolina and so on.

it's like a domino effect, isn't it? >> the real interesting thing about iowa is we spent by far the least amount of money and we know officially we won it. what it tells more importantly is that in america it's not about who spends the most but who has the most compelling message and messenger. we can look back, sure, would it have been great? we would have had a lot more press and so forth. we still raised significant money coming out of iowa. only three people for all practical purposes are left on the island, if you will. we're one of them. there's all these states ahead. so we're pretty excited about where we are. >> at what point, though, does the campaign hit the buffers in the since at some stage there's going to be have to be a two-horse race. everyone knows ron paul won't get out so rick santorum if he doesn't perform very well in florida, for example, he will get a lot of heat from other republicans to do the decent thing and stand aside. at what point do you think you would reach that moment if you had to? >> well, let's put this in

context first of all. before tonight, the highest finish newt gingrich had was a fourth in iowa and a fifth in new hampshire, beat both times by rick santorum. now we're really down to three candidates, they'll all receive more scrutiny, particularly newt gingrich. i think the question that's going to come up with all of them is, which one can beat obama, which one might be a risk in the fall, and frankly i think that this thing is so wide open right now they've all won one out of the three states. i mean, it's equal right now, and we have a lot of debates coming. it's no longer about the tv commercials. when you get down to three candidates, people are paying attention to all of them. last week rick santorum, most people felt won the debate thursday night. we have two coming up this week including one on cnn thursday night. we're looking forward to another winning debate. >> final question -- the one thing that rick santorum has done is propel himself almost from nowhere into serious contender here.

if he ends up in a position where he could be a running mate to either newt gingrich or mitt romney -- i accept you won't throw the towel in. he may yet go on to win it. but would he be prepared to be a running mate to either or both of those candidates? >> not even looking at that right now. rick santorum got in this race to be the next president of the united states. he feels like he obviously is the best contrast with obama. unlike the other two, he didn't support mandates. unlike the other two, he didn't support the bailouts. unlike the other two, he has significant foreign policy experience. rick santorum is in this because he believes he's the trusted conservative that could can be the next president of the united states, has the best opportunity to beat obama and that's where our focus is going to remain. >> john, thank you very much for your time. >> thank you, sir. and thank you for a great interview with the first with the santorum family and karen and rick together. i think that's the first time that ever happened. our phones have been ringing off

the hook with people saying it was a great interview. i think you got a lot of new fans last night. >> well, say what you like about your man, but it's a great family and they've been through a hell of a lot. i thorough 30 enjoyed meeting them all. >> well, thank you. when we come back, why south carolina's evangelicals went for gingrich and to look ahead to the critical battle in florida. when you have diabetes... your doctor will say get smart about your weight. that's why there's new glucerna hunger smart shakes. they have carb steady, with carbs that digest slowly to help minimize blood sugar spikes. [ male announcer ] new glucerna hunger smart. a smart way to help manage hunger and diabetes.

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we went out all across this country in these three states now but let me assure you we're going to florida, arizona, colorado, and everywhere else across this country. >> three states, three winners. now the focus shifts to florida. joining me is a chairman of that state's republican party, leonard curry. giving us some perfespective on newt gingrich, brian wright senior pastor of johnson ferry baptist church. mr. curry, all eyes on florida now. polls at the moment have

romney ahead 43%, i think santorum second with 19%, gingrich has about 18%. but i would imagine after tonight these could change quite rapidly. weigh saw a movement in south carolina which really, really was dramatic in favor of gingrich and away from romney. what are you expecting to happen in florida? >> well, i think -- you know, it's like in the nfl. they say on any given sunday. we're down to the final four, these are all profession alz. they've got great resumes, know what they're doing. with these debates i say on any given debate, the last two debates in florida, particularly the one hosted by cnn and the republican party here in jacksonville i think is going to be critical in voters making up their minds. >> there were lots of rumors flying around earlier tonight that jeb bush would give an endorsement to mitt romney. that now appears to be untrue and what we're hearing is he's decided to not endorse anybody. what are you hearing?

>> the stories i'm hearing, what i'm reading, is he as not planning on endorsing. certainly we've seen this primary season, a lot of surprises so nothing would surprise me at this stage. but i expect florida to remain competitive and volatile right up until, again, the last debate. >> let me bring in brian now. the evangelical issue in south carolina was fascinating. everybody expected newt gingrich to cop a lot of flack frankly for his marital baggage, particularly with his ex-wife giving this dramatic interview. but actually the rehverse happened. why do you think that happened, the evangelicals sue porting him? >> i think most of all we're looking for a candidate that can help barack obama. i think when newt gingrich came across so strong in the debates it really galvanized a lot of folks and wanting to support him.

there was an obvious, dramatic change this past week because ever the debates. and i think the gingrich camp probably needs to write a thank you note to john king noor opening question because it really threw a softball to newt that he was prepared for that really caused people to be excited about how he responded. >> yeah. i'm not sure softball is the right word. i think it was a perfectly valid question based on the sense that, as in previous elections, this kind of bombshell of an ex-wife coming out making all kinds of claims of open marriage and so on would potentially be incredibly damaging to his campaign. but the way that newt gicngrich handled this was so right on the point. he went after john king. he went after his ex-wife. he went after the whole thing. and at the end of it, the crowd gave him a standing ovation and you could almost feel voters in south carolina rushing to the polls. >> there's no doubt that people in south carolina can respond to

that kind of fighting spirit to stand up to those who may have a viewpoint that they really have a strong disagreement with. it is going to be interesting to see, over the course of time, though, for evangelical voters who learn from scripture and the teachings of jesus christ that marriage is really a stake red calling. over the course of the campaign as they reflect on what's happened in newt's life with regard to marriage because of adultery two times, tlg be interesting to see how that affects every lo venvery long e voters. people right now are so interested in finding a candidate that can be successful in the election. >> it seems to me that actually they're more concerned with somebody who can beat barack obama than they are about his marital woes 10, 15, 20 year s anyway, fascinating. thank you both very much. coming up, what went right for newt gingrich in south carolina and what went so wrong

for mitt romney? that question after the break.

growth. steady growth like this. >> that's ron paul earlier. tonight's gingrich victory has left the gop race wide open. joining me is author of the reagan revolution, andrew broadberg and amy holmes anchor of glenn beck's the blaze. welcome to you. let's start with you michael. a few interesting things most of which you just reminded me your father was the first divorced man to become president. so this whole debate about newt gingrich's marital baggage, you could argue that tonight the people of south carolina, very evangelical lot have voted with their feet and said, we don't care. >> yes. i think the issues are much different than in 1980 when my father ran. but the campaign in 1980 was scared to death that ronald reagan had been married to my

mother jane wyman. they tried to hide us in events and bring us out with separate rooms, not getting the idea that patty and ron and marine and michael were part of the same clan and remind everyone that ronald reagan was married twice. now you're in the middle of what's going on with gingrich. you're right, people look at the fact that barack obama need to be replaced as the main issue of the campaign, not the private life of one of those who's running for office, which my father would not have paid attention to the private life at all because we had that discussion back in 1960 with richard nixon and john kennedy and the photographs the rnc had. >> andrew, let me bring you in. you're looking a lot less evil than you were the other night, which is a good start to the proceedings. that's a joke obviously. >> thank you. >> let's just -- >> british humor. >> let's talk about the issue of newt gingrich's morality or otherwise as to how important it

is. because there was this pivotal moment in that debate when john king off the top put it directly to him and gingrich went on the attack. and he went on a fantastic kind of assault back. for all the media on dwelling on what he believes is trivial nonsense from his past. do you believe that was really a turning point for dealing with that kind of baggage? >> we've got a situation here where newt gingrich right now, before that you had chris christie, donald trump, any candidate that goes out there and attacks the mainstream media immediately gains 20 points amongst conservatives. the people in south carolina have been attacked mercilessly whether for their evangelical faith or whether for supporting the tea party by the mainstream

media. they're looking for someone to defend them when they know there's a double standard in the media. four years ago the media knew john edwards was carrying on an affair while he was claiming to be a family values liberal while his wife had cancer. and everybody knew in the mainstream media that he was carrying on that affair, yet on the eve of this debate abc news played that thing up against newt gingrich, they saw that as dirty tricks and they voted for him because he stood up to what is going to be a media defense of president obama in this election cycle. >> amy holmes, let me bring you in here. another way of looking at this in a white house way is that this is all quite good for barack obama because you've got the heavyweights of the republican party right now just taking seven lumps out of each other every two seconds, negative ad, negative ad. all of this stuff accumulates and becomes i would imagine a

rather useful punch bag for barack obama when he works out who the nominee is going to be, doesn't it? >> sure. president obama he gets to just sit back, eat the popcorn and watch the show. he doesn't have to spend his own money attacking any one of his potential opponents right now. and then he can, of course, use all of these attacks and accusations in a whole string of clips in his own ads. he can say, as his rival candidate, whether it's romney or gingrich or ron paul or rick santorum, he can just quote them out of their own mouths against whoever he's up against. but i want to get back to andrew's point about lts media and how newt gingrich so successfully put the media in the crosshairs. i think tonight showed the media is really the loser. public policy polling found 77% of south carolina gop primary voters have an unfavorable view of the media. we know newt gingrich talked a lot also about the media elite. so the media i think in

attacking newt gingrich, by saying they were somehow doing something faivgvorable for the electorate, they got that thrown back in their face. >> wait a minute. wait a minute. >> i think the -- >> amy, what you may also be seeing is some brilliant politics by newt gingrich. i mean, remember at the end ever the debate, the very first thing he said was, john king did a great job. of course he did because he put the question to him. newt gingrich could feign outrage, go on the attack and actually it was clearly a vote winner in the empassioned way he defended himself. i thought john king was perfectly right to ask the question, perfectly entitled to ask it off the top. it's what everyone was thinking. but newt gingrich was also perfectly entitled to go on at tack. michael? >> it's aum about how you react to these things. newt gingrich reacted directly, hit it out of the park. look at mitt romney reacting to, are you going to let us see your

taxes? >> he looked weak on that. >> he's so weak on that. i think i tweeted the other day, i'd rather go down swinging with newt than muttering with mitt. mitt can't find his voice. and, in fact, newt gingrich has found his voice and it's taking -- >> that's a good point. andrew, that's a good point, isn't it? >> whether mitt romney wants to accept it or not, the last three years was the era of the ascendancy of the tea party and he's done everything he can to say, well -- he likes to parrot tea party phrases and tea party ideas that are out there only because of the tea party, but he wants to distance himself from the people that were maligned by the media. and they see that defensiveness. they see the distance that he's created between the tea party. and people out there don't feel like he's been in the trenches defending them. >> piers, i want to get to your point about how newt demonstrated how to handle one of your greatest liabilities an he did. he handled it brilliantly.

that is is in contrast with mitt romney. what's so strange about it is, mitt romney is rich. he started bain capital. it was engaged in all of this kind of banking. yet he zntd have an articulate either explanation or defense or however you want to put it. it's like he's a deer caught in the headlights and that's so strange. it reminds me of rudy giuliani back in 2008 when he was running for the gop nomination. one of the first questions he got was about being pro-choice and he didn't have an adequate answer. yet that was his biggest liability going in. it was weird. >> let me get the final word with michael. >> there's two republicans, the rockefeller republicans or the reagan conservatives. the battle is between those two republican parties. tonight the reagan republicans won. >> yep. indisputable. michael reagan, a good night for all reagan conservatives, andrew, nice that you and i have patched things up, amy, thank you for your contribution, too. >> thank you.

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will be giving away passafree copies of the alcoholism & addiction cure. to get yours, go to ssagesmalibubook.com. mitt romney's been taking alots of heat over his tax returns and corporate career, accused of cutting jobs not creating them. where's the truth? with me is michael kranish and scott helman. they've covered romney for year is. and carol roth, business strategist and author of "the

entrepreneur equation." michael and scott, you wrote the book on mitt romney. on the face of it, romney has a brilliant resume to be president. he's ran bain, bailed out the olympics. all these good things. and yet at the moment, this message is being translated into he doesn't understand the cares and concerns of ordinary people. he's a job slayer, not creator and so on. where is he going wrong in selling this message? >> well, piers, it's interesting because we go back in his history to 1994 when he ran for the u.s. senate against edward kennedy, a lot of the same issues came up. for example, there were ads run by the kennedy campaign against him saying he was killing jobs. this should not be a surprise at all. also interesting on the tax returns you brought up, in '94 mitt romney challenged ted kennedy to release his tax returns. kennedy obviously being wealthy. kennedy declined. romney said, if he'll release his, i'll release mine. the issue of tax returns has been going on for 18 years.

if romney next week continues to say maybe or i'm not sure or a few years, it will justasked abe will say, what about yourself? you challenged kennedy. you need to see the tax returns from 1984 at least to 1999, the time he ran bain capital. then you would really learn exactly what he earned at companies that may have been closed down. you would get a much better idea. if he only says the last few years, there will still be questions raised about this. >> let me bring carol in. i suppose the suspicion is growing is that in these returns are some murky stuff. that will help make people think lesser of him. tell me about wayne, for example. because you could argue that bain just did what other companies do, they go along and bail out struggling companies, they make cuts to improve the business, and yes, they want to make a profit, but by doing so, they've also saved a lot of jobs. there are two ways of looking at what they did, aren't there?

>> there always are, piers. the problem is that the american public doesn't understand finance very well. so his campaign is saying, let's take the nfl strategy. we're in the fourth quarter and we have a bit of a lead. instead of going on the offense here, we're just going to run the ball. we'll go to the pretty convenient defense. and what happens in those scenarios in the nfl is that the other team starts saying, hey, i've got nothing to lose. they start chipping away at that lead. i think the same thing is happening to romney. he's on the right side of this issue. it is it all about the economy, and he has a track record not just at bain but in massachusetts and in the olympics as well as mr. turnaround. he has turned around everything that he's touched. but somehow the campaign has him scared to come out and take that stand. if you look at the one time he got applause in that debate, it's when he said i'm not going to apologize for my success. and everybody went, yeah, and

then he kind of backed off. i just think he needs to bring it and own it and say, you know what? i'm not going to apologize. i turned things around. we need turn around this economy. and he'll be in good standing then. >> let me bring in scott there. i don't know what's stopping him. what i do know from watching him, the body language of mitt romney all week and newt gingrich is that mitt romney now looks on the defensive and newt gingrich looks on the attack and is gaining confidence. from what you know about mitt romney when you did this book, it seems a bit strange that a guy who's run such huge businesses and been so successful wouldn't be a bit more chest-beating about this. why isn't he showing more passion? >> i think one of the big problems for him is the occupy movement. i mean, income and equality is suddenly the issue that everyone has been talking about for the past few months, and it's the one issue that's really uncomfortable for him. he's incredibly wealthy and he's

not done a terribly good job showing that he can empathize with people who aren't. look at his comments the past few weeks, like his speaking fees of $375,000 weren't that much money. and firing people. it comes out he pays a low tax rate. i think in some way that's is his biggest opponent, the occupy movement and sort of the consciousness that that occupies. because, look, like you just said, i don't think people begrudge him his wealth. they want to be successful. they want role models. but are you comfortable in that? and do you know how to talk to people and get down on a level and say i get it, i've been there, i've had friends who are there and he's not been able to do that. >> i think one of the problems is certainly when he dismisses the money from speaking, which is whatever it was, 350 grand or whatever, that's a lot of money, isn't it? we've got to leave it there, i'm afraid. scott, carol, michael, a pleasure talking to you. that's all for us tonight. monday i'll talk exclusively to

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