wreck." we'll talk about that as well, wednesday, march 28th and "starting point" begins right now. ♪ no way to control it, it's totally automatic whenever you're around ♪ >> that's off my playlist, the pointer sisters "automatic." how long has it been since you've heard the pointer sisters? >> never. s that been that long for you, bishop? >> even the bishop it's been a while. we welcome bishop t.d. jakes to our panel. i hate to show, this is the galleys, but the book is out called "let it go, forgive so you can be forgiven." those who know me know i'm not a forgiven person and john fugelsang is with us, political comedian and will cain, columnist at theblaze.com. our starting point this morning is new information to tell you about that puts a new twist on the trayvon martin case.

abc news is reporting the lead homicide detective investigating the shooting wanted to file manslaughter charges against george zimmerman from day one but sources tell abc news the state's attorney's office says there was not enough evidence to make an arrest and this revolution is coming the day trayvon's parents were in washington, d.c., demanding justice for their son. listen. >> trayvon was our son, but trayvon is your son. >> that's right. >> a lot of people can relate to our situation, taken breaks their heart, just like it breaks mine. >> joining us this morning, trayvon's parents, tracy martin and sabrina fulton along with attorney breenjamin crump and crystal high, going to be honoring trayvon tonight. i want to talk to sabrina and tracy. it's been a month now, how are

you doing? >> i'm taking one day at a time. i have strong faith in god and i know that everything is going to be fine. it's just like trying times right now and it still hurts us. we still cry. we're praying a lot and a lot of people are praying for us, so that helps a lot. >> i'm sure a lot of people are praying for you. as you were talking bishop jakes was nodding his head yes, that you're praying and that's holding to you together. tracy, an abc report of an investigator who right after the shooting felt that george zimmerman should be arrested and should be charged with manslaught manslaughter. he was overruled by the state's attorney what shade not to charge him, there wasn't enough evidence. what do you make of that report, sir? >> it's obvious that the investigator who's experienced in what he does saw fit that an

arrest needed to be made, and to hear that the state attorney's office said that there was not enough evidence is just heart wrenching. because that lets me know from the outset that something wasn't right about the investigation. >> you have met with the special prosecutor, angela corey. she's been trying to answer all the questions that you have as she's spent the last couple of days trying to get her team to look closely at every aspect of this investigation. what kinds of questions have you had for her? what do you want her to explain to you? >> why was our son gunned down. why wasn't this individual arrested. why was evidence not processed? why wasn't the right thing done from the beginning in this case. >> and why do you think, what is the answer to those questions? why do you think in your mind

the right thing hasn't been done? >> i really don't know. i really don't know what ties zimmerman has to any individual. all i know is that my son was carried away in a bdy bag, and zimmerman was left to go and shower and sleep in his bed. >> mr. crump, if i can ask you some questions as you've been discussing over the last day or so, some information has been leaked about trayvon's school record, his suspensions, things like that, of course those things are protected by federal and state law because trayvon was a minor. who do you believe is leaking this information and to what end? >> whoever is leaking it, it is a smear attempt, to get us off focus, to demonize and blame the victim, soledad. the real issue here is george zimmerman, an armed vigilante disobeyed the police that night,

and starting to pursue trayvon to have this what we now know fatal encounter, and that is the important thing. nothing matters, but what happened on february 26th, we know trayvon was never arrested, never suspended for anything violent and never been suspended for anything criminal. if he experimented with marijuana with his friends, even that there, is irrelevant, and it is just the police trying to make him look bad. they say oh, don't listen to what zimmerman did. forget that 911 tape. forget he disobeyed us, and this armed vigilante can't get away with this. what necessariage does that send to the world. >> do you think race in your mind was a factor, no doubt to you? >> well, i certainly think when you listen to the 911 tapes, that's why he was suspicious to zimmerman. now why the police, ask the

higher ups accept his story above tray skrvon and not do a background check, not a drug and alcohol analysis on a person who just killed a kid who was unarmed, and don't do a background and drug and alcohol analysis, and do that on the kid, it doesn't add up. that's why people are outraged and people are rallying saying enough is enough. how long is it going to take before he's just arrested. we're not asking for an eye for an eye. we want him arrested and equal justice under the law. we don't want no more, no less. >> i talked to a guy yesterday on the show, joe oliver and he described himself as a friend of george zimmerman's and he's african, he's like i fully get the conversations that are happening around race in this story, but in his mind this had nothing to do with race. i'll play a little bit of our interview for you that we had yesterday. >> i understand completely the

furor and anger that's out there over this case. if i didn't know george zimmerman i'd be right out there, too, but i do know george and i do know the portrayal that young black men have had. i experienced th ed thad that g. i get that. i understand that. but in this one spark incident, that wasn't the case. race had nothing to do with it. >> tracy, do you believe in your mind that race had everything to do with this case? >> i believe so, and it's just amazing to me how zimmerman's friend can go on not knowing my son, not knowing the circumstances. if he listened to the 911 tape, it clearly states that zimmerman was profiling my son. so for this individual to go on and say that george was not a racist, maybe he wasn't a racist to him while they sat around and

talked, but clearly on the tape he was profiling my son, and that leads me to believe that he in fact was a racist. >> sabrina, i'm going to ask you a question that is really a terrible thing i think to have to ask a mother but i know you got trayvon's body back and that he's been buried and a lot of the conversation was about injuries to george zimmerman, bruises that he had, broken nose, that he had cuts and lacerations that he had. tell me about the injuries that trayvon had. did it look like he had been the victim of a beating in some way? >> i couldn't absolutely tell that, because it was difficult for me to see my son's dead body. when i did see him, it was after he was fixed up, so i did not see him prior to him being handled by the funeral home.

i have no confidence that my son chased this guy. i really blee that this guy chased my son and my son was protecting himself. my son was exercising his stand your ground rule. >> what do you think, tracy, that ultimately justice looks like? is it the arrest? is it a conviction? is it people having a conversation? the story has gotten much bigger than literally about your son. it's also sort of about black young men and how they're treated by the police in this country as a hole. what is justice? >> to me justice would be starting with an arrest, then with the conviction, and then being sentenced to, for the crime that he has committed, a crime has been committed here.

everyone's trying to turn the focus off of george zimmerman and trying to make george zimmerman become the victim, when in fact trayvon is the victim. trayvon's family is the victim. we have a dead 17-year-old son that life will never be replaced, and you have these people out trying to make zimmerman as to be the victim. >> crystal i'll give you the last question. politics365 is honoring trayvon for being a game changer, an agent of social change. how do you think that people harness the anger, the energy of all the marches and all the conversations and turn that into something that's productive and positive out of this young man's life and it doesn't fester and become something who areible? >> i think it starts with recognizing how game changing this experience actually is. we face a paradox in this

country, when it comes to young people and people of color, whereas you know, on one hand we face these high unemployment rates and undereducation rates and end up on the wrong side of the health care and digital divide and you think about the stellar leadership in our communities, look the the work of folks like marc morial with the national urban league or at&t's tanya lombard. uplifting trayvon's name, making sure we recognize that he stands at the pin icica icanacle of whs to be a young person of color, vibrant, full of life, so much promise, so much potential and also represents the pitfalls of being a young person of color, and so i think that recognizing his legacy, his potential, who he could have been, what hes aspired to be and taking this energy, taking some of theening aer, taking some of the

frustration and channelling that in a way that lets people say hey, he is our arab spring. trayvon martin is our call to action. let's not have violence beget more violence but take protective measures of where we want to see our communities go. let's go to the hill. let's go to our local community leaders. let's go to state legislatures. let's get civically engaged in a way that's positive and continue to drive change in a progressive manner. kristah lie, editor-in-chief of politics365, benjamin crump, representing the family and sybrina fulton and tracy martin, trayvon's parents thank you for being with us. >> thank you. coming up the congressional forum that trayvon's parents attended. we'll talk to congressman maxine waters and congressman emanuel cleaver straight ahead. tomorrow we'll have -- a town

hall, shooting it tomorrow and watch it friday night at 8:00 p.m. and 10:00 p.m. eastern time "beyond trayvon." if you'd like to register to join the audience, you can do so on our website until 9:00 a.m. we'll talk to t.d. jakes, the bishop is here because all of the questions bring up the issue of forgiveness. i don't know how, you hear the pain in every word the parents say. how do you move on? how does a community move on? is it even possible. all that is straight ahead. first to headlines and christine romans has has for us. >> good morning, soledad. some terrifying moments on a jetblue plane. >> take it down! >> a pilot put in a choke hold, restrained by passengers on a trip from new york to las vegas. the pilot, after he suffered an

apparent mental breakdown in the middle of a flight. you can hear him ranting about the middle east and a bomb and the plane going down, all on this video here. that's when a group of passengers who were on their way by the way to a security conference, jumped into action. >> i saw about two or three guys right next to him jump up and another four guys rush right past him towards the front of the plane. >> started to curse at me, hey, you better pray, iraq and iran, and so i said you know what? i'm going to show you what iraq and iran is, and i took him in a choke hold. >> take a look at the images the pilot being wheeled off that plane, restrained and in a stretcher, before he was taken away in an ambulance. the co-pilot quick thinking somehow got him out of the cockpit, locked the door behind him so he could not get in the cockpit again. newt gingrich playing off about a third of his staff, cutting back his campaign appearances. he says it's a change in

strategy to make it to the gop convention in tampa, but it is fueling speculation this morning he may be dropping out of the race, and that's what a majority of republican voters want to see. a new cnn/orc poll says 60% of them say the former speaker should get out of the race now. coming up, soledad will talk to gingrich communications director joe desantis about the new development of the gingrich campaign. gas prices rising for 19 days in a row, national average $3.91 a gallon, up 17 cents just this month according to aaa. more than half of you traveling americans out there say if gas prices rise at least another 26 cents you're going to be making changes to your summer vacation plans this year because of the high cost. get out your dollar bills, the mega millions jackpot bigger than ever. no one picked the winners in last night's drawing for $363 million. so the jackpot goes up to $476

million for friday. that would be the largest lottery jackpot in u.s. history. soledad i put in ten bucks with dean and the floor crew but i also have the statistic for you, you are 18 to 120 times more likely to die from a flesh eating bacteria than win the lotte lottery. it's a $10 risk i'm willing to take. >> if i win i'm like pack up my stuff and send it home. still ahead on "starting point," forget high school, forget your golden years, what age are we the happiest? there's a new study that has the magic number. i'll take a poll of the panelists and see if they agree. final day of arguments over the president's health care law. we'll talk to senator jack reed straight ahead, a democrat who helped craft the law along with jeff toobin who yesterday was calling the thing a train wreck. we'll leave with you senator reed's playlist, a suggestion from his daughter emily, it's

hannah montana so again a suggestion from his daughter's emily. best of both worlds. i think that's the theme song from "the hannah montana show." you know who you are. you can part a crowd, without saying a word. you have yet to master the quiet sneeze. you stash tissues like a squirrel stashes nuts. well, muddlers, muddle no more. try zyrtec®. it gives you powerful allergy relief. and zyrtec® is different than claritin® because zyrtec® starts working at hour 1 on the first day you take it. claritin® doesn't start working until hour 3. zyrtec®. love the air.

♪ what on earth do you think you are ♪ ♪ a superstar, well, right you are ♪ ♪ well, we all shine on ♪ at the moon and the stars and the sun ♪ that's u2's cover of "instand karma" off john's playlist. >> hannah montana and darfur. was it a train wreck for the oba obama, and it looks like the fate of the individual mandate could be in jeopardy. justices offered sharply divided views on the federal health care

reform bill. perhaps what is most telling so far is justice kennedy expressing skepticism on the mandate's constitutionality. >> and here the government is saying that the federal government has a duty to tell the individual citizen that it must act, and that is different from what we have in previous cases. that changes the relationship of the federal government to the individual in a very fundamental way. >> today will be arguments in the final two issues of the case, whether they can extend medicaid to a larger pool and if the mandate is found unconstitutional, can the rest of the law survive? joining to us talk about that, senator jack reed, democrat from rhode island and member of the committee which crafted the health care law and cnn's senior legal analyst jeff toobin. we'll start with you, senator reed if we can. you heard jeff toobin describe this as a train wreck. would you say that's how it's

gone so far, sir? >> not really. i think what yesterday demonstrated serious, hard questions to be asked, not unusual, typical on the supreme court argument. the real discussions i believe begin once the lawyers leave and the judges in their conference begin to talk about the law. i think they understand its historic importance of this case and i think they also understand the realities of this case. health care is 17% of our gdp. it's 60% of bankruptcies have a major factor of health care cost. so i think they are looking for a way to sustain this legislation, not to strike it down. and i think also, too, they have to be conscious of what they might be doing in the future. there are people from generations who have spoken about medicare as being in position of a tax for health care i don't want or don't need. that will pick up with great fervor if this decision is struck down and i think they

have this broad historic cont t contexcontex context. >> when you heard donald varelli stumble, it was a hot mess, i want to play a little bit of the audio from his arguments where he started choking up a little bit. listen. >> insurance has become the predominant means of paying for health care in this country. insurance has become the predominant means of paying for health care in this country, for most americans, for more than 80% of americans, the insurance system does provide effective access. excuse me. >> so he stops to take a drink of water and a couple of minutes in, the other justices start peppering him with questions. is this typical or did it seem to be atypical from what you know, jeff? >> no, it's not typical. it was awful. i mean that thing you quoted was

his opening line to the justices, and you know these lawyers, they work for months to gran an opening line, something that will focus the justice's attention and that stumbling opening was how verrilli started and ahem, excuse me, i'm having my own problems here which -- >> oh, judge and be not judged, bishop. >> reporter: exactly, which is a good reason why i should not be solicitor general of the united states, but this is, it was a problem. now, you know i don't want to overstate it. these justices, they know what they think about these issues. the lawyers i think really don't matter all that much, but you know you want to put your best foot forward and they didn't. >> jeff, this is will cain. i want to try to make this clear to the audience what we heard yesterday and see if you agree with me that the justices were constantly asking the solicitor general for a limiting principle, if we allow you to do this what can't do you and scalia and roberts used the example of food and alito used

the example of burial insurance and the mistake he made i think is the same mistake that the senator just made, with all due respect essentially responded with a policy argument instead of a legal argument. he never answered the question, where does your power end? >> reporter: well and it was interesting, the person who really took on that question most enthusiasticcally was stephen breyer who in many respects took over the defense of the law from donald verrilli and said look it's up to congress to define the limiting principle. we have political checks. if jack reed's constituents think he's doing a bad job and thinks he's overstating they'll throw him out of office but it's not the supreme court's job to decide what the limits of what congress should do are, and frankly, i thought that was a lot more persuasive than anything donald verrilli said in defense of the law. >> let me ask the question of senate reed. say hypothetically this in fact is struck down. can the bill live without the

mandate? that's kind of the direction we're heading now. what happens next? >> i don't assume that's the direction we're heading. i think -- >> i meant in terms of the conversation, not in terms of whether or not it would be struck down, sir. >> again, i think that, i feel that the law will be sustained. i think jeff said it very well, that these judges probably have a pretty good sense of what they're doing. they were pressing for a limiting principle but as jeff said accurately justice breyer pointed out that's sort of almost a case by case basis, based on the legislation. so i think that they're going to give it fair consideration or i'm confident they'll uphold it. i think what they not only decide but what they write in their opinions and probably more than one opinion, will suggest, if there's ways to modify it, if there's ways to make it constitutionally permissible in its case they do strike it down so at this juncture to talk

about what's plan b, i think we have to wait for this decision and i think we can't essentially also relieve them of the need to make a fundamentally and historic decision about the constitutionality of this case. >> senator jack reed joining us from the state of rhode island and jeff toobin, thank you very much. still ahead on "starting point," which age were you the happiest? >> right now, today, my birthday. i feel like a jerk mentioning your own birthday. >> no, i love it. >> what an arrogant thing to do. >> today a new study is athank says there's a certain age that is the happiest age. we'll poll everybody and see if they agree. and in honor of will cain's 23rd birth day we leave you once again with willie nelson the only person he likes to highlight on this show. ♪

our get real this morning is about the happiest age. bishop, what do you think is the age at which people are most happy? >> your 50s. it takes a while. >> that would not be the answer the poll gave. >> the day before birth. >> and will cain says today because he is 37 today? >> that's right. >> our get real, yeah, 37 for will. mine was 26. i thought 26 was a great year. >> the happiest? >> definitely. a british website calls friends reunited, 70% of people over the

age of 40 pick 3 as their happiest age. 6% their college years, 16% childhood. >> jesus might disagree and so would john belushi. >> 33 is the perfect age, had enough time to shake off your naive childhood years, awkward teenage years and have youthful years. how about people who find joy in their job? >> are you going to read the rest of this explanation by the psychiatrist? despite the presence of the bishop here? >> absolutely, absolutely. people who find joy in their job is 20%, i'm right behind them and a woman interviewed in "the new york post" 33 makes sense because it is sexy. she says you're hitting your stride. >> you're hitting your stride, a

lot more confident and can attract younger guys. >> honey that works at 46 as well. i tried not to curse today because occasionally i let it slip. >> if the lord didn't like sex he wouldn't let you cry out his name. >> go forward. >> ahead on "starting point," wall here -- we're going to talk about newt gingrich getting rid of a third of his campaign staff. >> i made the man laugh. >> why he thinks that could be a winning move. moving on. and one on one with carmelo anthony. >> really, did you take him? >> i threw him about a question about president obama, a five-time nba all-star, olympic gold medalist. we're back in a moment. what's this? [ male announcer ] quaker oatmeal squares

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♪ that's the canadian invasion "one hand collapse the other" from joe desantis' playlist this morning. the campaign is seeing a radical facelift, announced a new campaign manager, laid off a third of the staff all this amid a new cnn poll that shows that 60% of republicans think newt gingrich should drop out of the race. joe desantis joins thus morning. a third of the staff out shall the campaign manager out. i think people could look at all this joe and say this is an indication that this campaign is on its very last legs. is that a fair assessment? >> no, it's not. it's just an indication that we are reorganizing to ex-cute the strategy we think we need to win the nomination and right now what that's going to mean is that if you look at the math, we're not going to get to 1,144 before june 26th, the last two primaries so what we're going to

have to do is convince delegates in the 60-day period between the last primaries and the convention that newt is the candidate to defeat obama and to change washington. and so once you realize that's the way we have to go forward, we'll focus on key states to pick up delegates, we're going to engage, continue engaging the national media and engaging in the national narrative and continuing to take the fight to obama, like newt has done with his $2.50 gas plan which put the white house on defense for the past three weeks. >> will cain, question for you. when you hear a plan like that, what's your takeaway immediately, that this is a strategy to try to win the white house is what joe is saying? >> one of the questions i have for joe, would love to hear from joe the assumption, they're also going to deny mitt romney his ability to get to 1,144. does newt gingrich's presence help or hurt that, help rick santorum's quest to deny that. >> by newt gingrich staying in the race you hurt his ability to

get to 1,144, which means that eventually it, the strategy is to be a spoiler and clearly sounds to me the strategy is not that newt gingrich could possibly win 1,144 at this point. >> can he win 1,144 at the convention. your own poll which you referenced earlier showed gingrich dropping out of the race helps mitt romney dramatically more than it helps rick santorum so if newt were to drop out of the race, i apologize, it would actually virtually guarantee mitt romney the nomination. if conservatives really want to rally around a conservative standard bear, someone whose platform is going to be bold, conservative, going to be reform oriented in the tradition of reagan and thatcher, they're going to have, they need newt to stay in to prevent a romney nomination. >> of course the word of the

campaign is in huge debt, we were talking about that yesterday and there was a report that mr. gingrich is selling photos at 50 bucks a pop to try to raise money. we now know he's not going to travel as frequently, going to start just chatting with the voters or potential voters online. all of this to me seems to say what the strategy is here is try to figure out how to not spend money and stay in the campaign without putting the expenditure in. is that what's happening? >> clearly you need to design a structure and a strategy around the financial realities of your campaign. our real sit we have 176,000 donors but 95% of them have given less than $250. it is a small donor-driven campaign and we're still seeing the steady stream of small donations coming in. it's one of the reasons why newt is still in the race, he feels like he owes it to the donors that are keeping this campaign afloat so we have the financial means to execute the strategy that we're employing, and we

think that by the end of this process, remember, iowa was only 11 weeks ago. you think about all the ups and downs, you know, since the iowa caucuses, and then think about the fact that -- >> for your campaign there haven't been a lot of ups and downs. you won two states. you probably could argue that for someone like mitt romney there's been a lot of this. >> right, georgia which was a lot of delegates as well and south carolina is a key state, because it is, it was winner take all and 23 bound delegates. the states we've won have been impactful in terms of the delegate count. is there there's only two of them, that's the problem. >> conservative states also awarded delegates, for instance in oklahoma we came in third but walked away with one less delegate than rick santorum from the state. so we think that if you look at the actual delegate count,

obviously governor romney is ahead in the delegate count but we're pretty competitive in terms of the number of delegates we have. >> you have 136. governor romney is a with a head, got 469 delegates, he's actually way ahead of the number two guy, rick santorum who has just over 250 delegates there so that might be a huge challenge to you. joe desantis, gingrich communications director and we'll follow what's happening with the campaign as it carries on. thank you for talking with us. appreciate your time. >> thank you for having me. still ahead on "starting point" a passenger basically has to choke out a pilot at 30,000 feet as the pilot freaks out on the flight. we'll tell you what happened after this was shot. you're watching "starting point." short break and we're back in a moment. [ woman ] my husband, hank, was always fun.

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welcome back, everybody. final day of arguments over at the supreme court over president obama's health care law. it was a very tough day for democrats yesterday as the administration argued its position on the individual mandate, the key component in the sweeping health care reform law, and jeff toobin had some pretty harsh words for how it went. take a look. >> this was a train wreck for

the obama administration. this law looks like it's going to be struck down. >> the court's swing vote, justice anthony kennedy, appeared to be siding against the administration. this morning we talk with minority whip steny hoyer from maryland. nice to see you, sir. thanks for talking with us. jeff toobin, on our air a few minutes ago as well said it was a train wreck even from the opening statements, seemed disorganized, seemed like there was a lot of stumbling. would you describe it that way, this presentation as an opening arguments as a train wreck? >> -- of one of my top staffers who worked on this bill and who is very knowledgeable about this issue indicates there was a rough start but that both justice roberts and justice kennedy at the end were asking questions of the other side, that seemed to reflect a fairness of view. we'll see whether that's the case but the case isn't over until it's over, and the

justices are going to have to reflect upon the issues here, and they'll meet in joint session with one another and discuss it. it's way too early to say, a, it was a train wreck or this case is over. i think this matter will be resolved, that the mandate is, in fact, constitutional and this bill will go forward. >> so what are the political implications? because ultimately i think that's what a lot of people are examining for either option, either it's constitutional or ruled unconstitutional. if it's ruled constitutional, what are the political implications and if it's ruled unconstitutional, what potentially are the political implications for president obama and any re-election campaign? >> of course there are an awful lot of portions of this bill very popular with the american people, clearly the fact that their children or themselves can't be precluded from preexisting conditions. they like the fact that young people between the ages of 22 and 26 that can't find insurance can stay on their policies, they

certainly like the fact seniors, their prescription drug costs are going down. there are a lot of component parts. when you say unconstitutional, will they find the mandate unconstitutional, the balance of the bill okay, do they work together and therefore the whole thing falls? we don't know the answer to that question but i think frankly there is no doubt there is a problem. the problem is making sure that 30 million to 50 million americans have access to affordable quality health care. we think the bill that was passed, signed into law does that and we frankly haven't heard any alternatives from republicans on how to get that done but everybody agrees that on skrebjective is one that nee be accomplished. we'll see what the ramifications will be after the court makes its decision. >> john? >> you mentioned some of the positive aspects of the bill from eliminating preexisting conditions to allowing people to be covered under their parents until age 26, the problem

progressives is they don't like the mandate, see it as a conservative idea that the democratic party adopted to are this bill. is there a concern that the supreme court if striking this down will dispense with all the good things of the bill or do you think there's a chance that only the mandate may be struck down and the elements that americans of both political stripes favor may still survive? >> well, i don't know the answer to that question. i think experts don't know the answer to that question at this point in time. clearly we believed and it's ironic as you point out that the mandate was a conservative idea, on how you get people involved in the insurance pool, to spread the risk and bring costs down. that clearly is the objective, and it's ironic that now the conservatives that came up with this idea are so vigorously attacking it, largely because i think it was a democratic, what they perceive as a democratically sponsored piece of legislation. of legislation.

i don't really think we know the answer to whether we can keep the good stuff and lose the bad stuff because the bad stuff being from people's perspective the mandate. what we're saying is everybody has to be included in the risk pool otherwise you don't bring the price down. if you don't bring the price down, neither government, business nor individuals will be able to afford having health insurance and if that's the case, our society won't be as healthy and our people won't be as protected. >> i want to shift directions if i can for one moment. you guys, house democrats, just yesterday put out your budget proposal for the coming years. in it you put out a proposal that doesn't really touch on medicaid and medicare. i want to you ask this. most people watching know i come from a conservative perspective. medicare, medicaid, social security take up 40 plus percent of the budget. most people project it will take

100% of our budget. is it possible to achieve a balanced budget without touching these programs? >> i think as you may have known, i've given a number of speeches on the fact that chris van hollen has been very involved in this as well. we need to solve our budget deficit and debt problem by balanced package. a balanced package that reflects something along bowles-simpson proposal where everything needs to be addressed. what we don't need to do is what republican budget does and what our budget does not do and that's destroy the guarantee that medicare will in fact be available. we need to make sure it's fiscally sustainable, absolutely. do we need to, however, put at risk the receipt of medicare and the insurance of medicare for our seniors and others? the answer to that is an emphatic no. our budget we put forward is a balanced package. it's like the president's badge. balanced in terms of revenue,

cuts and moving forward to reduce the deficit. very frankly the alternative budget offered by the republicans today and tomorrow is not balanced. it will not bring down our deficit in the foreseeable future. and the cuts that it proposes simply shift from the middle class and poor, burdens to them, and wealth to the wealthiest in america. that's not a fair program. that's not a balanced program. it's not a program that we think will get us from where we need to be, where we are, to where we need to be. and in fact, in the republican budget there are no specifics. and they are unrealistic in terms of cuts that can be effected and unrealistic in terms of the $10 trillion in revenue cuts that they suggest can be offset with the elimination of preference items they refer to. generally but not specifically. they don't take on the hard

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passengers have to tackle a ranting jetblue captain. people on board talking about how close they feel they came to disaster this morning. former governor mitt romney showing his lighter side on late night. you can hear what he thought about rick santorum in a romney administration. >> really? >> yeah. plus, a bishop on our panel with a new book called "let it go" it's about forgiveness. a session on that straight ahead. you're watching "starting point." back in a moment. [ female announcer ] if whole grain isn't the first ingredient

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welcome, everybody. our "starting point" is that jetblue pilot that was screaming they're going to take us down ranting about the middle east and maybe a bomb on the plane. got some new video this morning of the pilot's mental breakdown and it was happening at 30,000 feet in the air. trayvon martin's parents are grieving and demanding answers. listen. >> we are praying a lot. a lot of people are praying for us. >> that's from our interview this morning. brand new information about just who stopped the local police from arresting george zimmerman seen there. my one-on-one with melo. we talk about hoodies.

we talk about lyinsanity. it's wednesday, march 28th. "starting point" begins right now. ♪ >> that's congresswoman maxine water's playlist. bishop jakes, is this your 30th book? >> quite a few of them. >> i think it's 30. 15 of them have become best sellers. >> you're making me blush. >> he's modest. i'll brag for him. how many of those best sellers of 30 books -- >> i had 32. something like that. >> you're young yet. i'm blushing too. >> you have been following this story. this is cover of "the new york post."

this is your captain freaking. the details of this jetblue pilot who had to be put in a choke hold and restrained by passengers. a trip going from new york to las vegas. apparently he suffered a complete mental breakdown in the middle of the flight 3.5 hours in. you can hear him on this tape ranting about the middle east and a bomb. a group of passengers describe it as six big guys on the way to a security conference in vegas jumped up and brought the whole thing to an end. listen. >> i saw two or three guys right next to him jump up and another four guys rush him toward the front of the plane. >> he said you better pray. iraq, iran. i said, you know what? i'm going to show you what iraq and iran is. i took him in a choke hold. >> never have people been so happy there are a bunch of people on the plane who could do a choke hold. what's going on, do you think?

this is second in a couple weeks. we had the flight attendant who freaked out before the plane left the ground. >> i think there's a lot of stress. people are under a lot of pressure right now in their personal lives and professional lives and everywhere of their life and we have to watch for more than our stereotypical ideologies of terrorists and look at the people who work around us every day. when they implode or explode, they don't warn you before they do. >> i think it's too early to tell. i hope this pilot gets the care he needs. i would like to advise the gingrich campaign that funds are low and tickets on jetblue will get cheap this week. >> amazing reaction. six guys jump up and take this guy down and suggestses th s the living in a post-911 world. we respond to these threats more than we used to. >> god bless the co-pilot that took control of the situation. >> pre- 9/11 people would have

let it drag out to see where it goes but the co-pilot thought the pilot was behaving erratically. he started off the flight fine. the tv screens were broken. he got on the overhead and talked about that. didn't seem like he was losing it. the co-pilot, the minute things started to spiral out of control, his first instinct was get him out of the cockpit. lock him out, which is what he did. >> encouraging reaction of the fellow passengers. makes me feel safer. we can say, wow, a pilot flipping out makes me feel insecure. reaction of passengers makes me feel safer. >> be careful who you fly with. if there's not six big guys on flight, don't go. >> maybe you're one of the big guys. we're all one of the big guys now. >> you're absolutely right. i got to practice my choke hold a little bit. it's been a while since i needed to do that. >> that would be the -- can you imagine the bishop doing the -- that would be a whole other headline story. my goodness. you would be praying over him. that's what you would be doing.

we'll get to other stories making headlines this morning. christine has those. >> in the planes, trains and automobile department. this bus was blocks away from the station in downtown stockton when another driver saw flames coming out of the back of the bus. he alerted the bus driver who got all passengers out safely. the cause appears to be mechanical. incredible video released of a police chase in new mexico. the actual chase happened earlier this month on i-40 in albuquerque. it blocked traffic for hours. police responded to a call of a stolen bus. they tried to ram the bus to stop it but failed. the bus thief was slowed by road spikes but kept going. police caught him after more than 30 miles when a trooper in an suv gets the bus to spin out and crash. the 27-year-old driver in case you're wondering is now behind bars. head to head battle between

mitt romney and barack obama in swing states, the president is holding his own in two of them and statistical dead heat in the third. the poll just released this morning. president leads romneys by seven points in florida and by six points in ohio. pennsylvania is considered a statistical tie with romney. mitt romney cracking wise on late night. he had a surprise suggestion for a running mate on "the tonight show." >> tell me about vice president. what are you looking for? >> i haven't actually put a list together at this stage. it would be presumptuous number one. >> not even with the wife? you know, honey? it's never come up? i'm not even running and i discuss it with my wife. i'll give you a list of candidates. you give me one word on each person. give me one. >> a couple words maybe. >> chris christie? >> indominable.

>> a man of strong will. >> when asked to describe potential running mates. he said press secretary to newt gingrich. >> thank you. >> was this a train wreck for the obama administration. senior legal analyst jeff toobin says the fate of the individual mandate could be in jeopardy. the justices offering sharply divided views on the controversial provision at the heart of the 2010 federal health care reform law. most telling moments of the argument so far is when justice anthony kennedy who is usually the court's swing vote expressed skepticism on the constitutionality of the mandate. listen. >> here the government is saying that the federal government has a duty to tell the individual citizen that it must act and that is different from what we have in previous cases.

that changes the relationship of the federal government to the individual in a very fundamental way. >> today there are arguments on the final two issues of the case. joining me, jeff toobin, cnn senior legal analyst and gregory is one of the lawyers arguing against the health care act. nice to see both of you. when the justices start asking questions like that, can you automatically tell the direction they're headed or is it sort of strategy of asking questions and we'll find out -- we won't know until they make their ruling? >> i think it's a little bit of both. it's always hazardous to read too much into the questioning but i will say we are pretty optimist optimistic based on the tenor of the questioning. i think the justice expressed fair concerns with them and we're optimistic. >> do you think, jeff toobin, that mr. katsas' optimism is

merited. the solicitor general seemed to be struggling a lot. here's a little bit of what the justice said. >> tell me if i'm wrong about this. i thought a major, major point of your argument was that the people who don't participate in this market are making it more expensive for the people who do. it's not your free choice just to do something for yourself. what you do is going to affect others, affect them in major way. >> you could hear giggling almost behind what she's saying. she's sort of advising the solicitor general. i think the point you're trying to argue is this point. let me hand it to you, sir. >> she wasn't the only liberal justice doing this. steve breyer at one point took over the argument for the obama

administration. i mean there was clear frustration on the liberal side with the job that the solicitor general was doing. i think greg is right. he should be optimistic. we don't know for sure based on questioning. we have followed the justices for a long time. the days when the justices used to sort of play devil's advocate and question, those days are really gone. what you see is what you get. almost, not always, but almost all the time. it looked like there were five votes to strike down the mandate yesterday. >> those are oral arguments. they really go to the legal briefs. today they'll focus on the domino effect, right, mr. katsas, can the law remain if the individual mandate is struck down. do you think that's possible? >> i think we have an excellent chance of knocking out at least some parts of the law. the government itself supports our position that if the mandate is unconstitutional than certain

of the core insurance reforms have to fall with the mandate. i think we have an excellent chance on that part of the argument. we also have a broader argument that the entire statute falls. that's a more aggressive argument for us. we're optimistic on that. i think that one will be a little bit more difficult for us. >> final word to you, jeff toobin. what do you think the impact is politically for president obama if -- i get this is a big if and early if but if it fails and deemed unconstitutional? >> i think it's awful. i think it's disastrous. i think it's terrible. this is why people run for president. to do things like this. and if the central achievement of your administration is cast aside by the people behind me, that's not just a political disaster, it's a substantive disaster. this is the what matters in politics, which is what you can

do as president and if they take it away from him, it speaks for itself. >> thank you, gentlemen. we appreciate it. still ahead this morning on "starting point," trayvon martin's parents take their call for justice to congress. we'll talk to a couple lawmakers who want to find out whether his killing was a hate crime. one-on-one with carmelo anthony. what he thinks of linsanity. you're watching "starting point." bishop, we need to hear your music up next. a lot of gospel i'm guessing. [ kyle ] my bad.

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trayvon martin's parents are taking their crusade to capitol hill. we have learned of a dispute over exactly what happened the night trayvon was killed. abc news is reporting that after the shooting the lead investigator recommended that george zimmerman be charged with manslaughter but the state attorney's office determined there wasn't enough evidence to

lead to a conviction. it underscores a lack of standards on how to investigate incidents that involve claims of self-defense. listen. >> i don't know whether it is incompetent or coverup or all of the above. >> trayvon is the victim of a botched police investigation full of incompetence or intelligent mismanagement. >> joining us this morning, democratic congressman emanuel cleaver of new jersey. chairman of the black caucus and maxine waters of california is a member of the judiciary committee. nice to see you both. congresswoman waters, let me begin with you. you heard the folks who were presenting talk about incompetence and botched police investigation. when you actually talk to trayvon's parents, they really talk a lot about their son. here's what his mom said at this hearing. >> trayvon was our son.

trayvon is your son. a lot of people can relate to our situation. it breaks their heart just like it breaks mine. >> congresswoman, what exactly was the goal of the hearing? >> the hearing was organized to get experts in to talk about the laws that appear to be causing a lot of problems particularly as it relates to young african males. as you know, we have discovered that i think about somewhere around 27, 28, 29 states have organized stand your ground laws for example, which is what is being used in this case by mr. zimmerman claiming self-defense. we had them not only talk about that law but other laws and police profiling. what's wrong with the criminal justice system. why is it we have so many young black males that have been profiled and been killed.

it was the kind of hearing that got the experts identifying problems in the criminal justice system and beginning to help us think about what we can do from the federal level. >> c.l. bryant used to run a branch of naacp in a town in texas says he believes that reverend jackson and reverend sharpton are exploiting this issue. he used the words exploiting this young man's death and he's missing the bigger issue which is black on black crime. do you think that's true, congressman? >> no. we have always had to face people making those accusations since the civil rights movement began. that's not going to ever stop. any time someone is forcefully stepping up and speaking out against injustice, there will always be those who will say they are exploiting it for their own purposes. reverend jackson doesn't get a penny for that. reverend sharpton is traveling all over the country and doesn't

get a penny for that. the other issue is there is a problem with black on black crime absolutely. no question about it. but the bigger issue is the low esteem in which black life is held, particularly black males. it doesn't matter whether it is black on black or brown or green or whatever, it means that there is not a high level of appreciation for the life of a black male who is a human being. >> it's been interesting to see the information that's been leaked about this young man. it's protected because it's a minor. some people have said it's been leaked by the police. seems to me to try to undercut his image. what do you think is at work? >> his mother described it perfectly. she said it's a character assassination. we're seeing a lot of facts unveiled each day. as each day goes by, we learn more and more about not only this character assassination and

the leaks but what happened the night of his death. we're learning just as you opened this program that the lead investigator said that zimmerman should be charged with manslaughter. and it was overturned literally by the state's attorney. when we first heard about this case, we didn't know that. an investigation must go on. the justice department must be on the ground. they've got to be involved with this. there are too many unanswered questions and i really personally believe this is a hate crime. >> congresswoman waters, that's been a concern of mine that we've been willing to jump to conclusions this might be a hate crime or willing to explore very important conversations about race but almost at the expense of the facts in this case. you just talked about how important they are. we're still learning them. and we don't know all of them. do you think we've given fair treatment to the actual facts this this case and what happened

on that night? >> a 17-year-old young man is dead. he was killed after it has been revealed that he was being followed. he was not committing a crime. he was not armed. and so as we listen to the 911 calls and we listen to and hear about conversations that trayvon was having with his girlfriend, no. i don't think that -- let me just say this. the evidence really points to a fact that you had a gun holding so-called neighborhood watchman who wanted to be a cop basically who was following a young black man who was unarmed and had committed no crime. that's pretty stiff evidence that this is possibly a hate crime. in addition to that, there are those that have listened to some of these tapes and they hear some words and we want to continue to know more about the

words that were being said by mr. zimmerman because they appear to be words that would certainly lead you to believe that this was a hate crime. >> congresswoman waters is talking about the curse of course and then what sounds at least to me like a racial slur that occurred two minutes and 20 seconds into that 911 call between george zimmerman and the dispatch. thank you for joining us this morning. we appreciate your time. >> good to be with you. >> you bet. join me for the town hall we're going to have. race and justice in america. i'll host that event tomorrow march 29th if you want to be part of the studio audience sign up at our website. it's only going to be posted for another 38 minutes so you want to make sure do you that now. it will air on friday night at 8:00 p.m. and then repeat at 10:00 p.m. eastern on cnn. if you would like to be part of the studio audience, go to our website. still ahead on "starting point," knicks star carmelo anthony

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>> after the adrenaline starts pumping. >> after i dig deep. >> after i've gone all out. >> after i've been taken to the limit. >> i refuel with chocolate milk. >> do you believe that? olympic athletes after they've been taken to the limit they refuel with chocolate milk? it's a new ad. it features an olympic gold medalist and also knick carmelo anthony. i asked him like that? really? seriously? at the end of a tough workout or tough game, you have chocolate milk? he says yes. here's what he said. tell me about a couple projects you are working on. first the chocolate milk. >> absolutely. >> first time there's chocolate

mi milk. >> first time they actually doing got chocolate milk. it's a fun campaign. it's a fun experience. i'm just glad to be a part of it. >> the ad shows you drinking back chocolate milk after a workout. really? >> it's a great way to recover. i think with kids nowadays and people in general athletes they don't really understand what it takes to recover. i don't think they are knowledgeable of that. and in order to prepare for the next battle and next victory it starts right after you finish that game or that performance. >> tell me about the injury that you had when you were out for seven weeks. it coincided with linsanity that made all of the headlines all over new york and everybody was talking about it. was that hard to be sidelined and injured and watch that? >> it was a little bit of both. it was kind of hard to be injured and not actually a part of it and have to be part of it from afar on the sideline. it was fun at the same time to

just see how new yorkers came back together once again over linsanity and over new york knicks basketball and for him overnight to just pop up and bring it back. it was fun. it was fun for everybody. >> there's a picture of you on your twitter page in a hoodie. and many people have been posting i am trayvon martin. tell me why this case has been important to you. >> it's very important. i think it just brings an understanding to the situation. i've been hearing comments and people talking and stories and everybody has their own opinion. i don't think people should be judged by what they wear and their clothing and things like that. i'm a big believer in that. they talk about only the bad guys, only gangsters and thugs wear hoodies and dress like that. if you look at the history, thugs are dressed in suits. gangsters are dressed in suits. you don't know where it's coming from. that's just a very sensitive situation, sensitive topic right now. i feel for the family.

for trayvon's family. for them to have to go through that tragic moment and for them to have to answer questions and for them to have to turn on the tv, to read in the newspaper, people's opinion about it and was he wrong, was he not wrong? i feel more for the family right now. >> you have a small boy, child. he's five. what kinds of things does he ask about? >> right now he always ask me about the hoodie situation why is everybody wearing hoodies and we watch television and we see it. his main man is obama and he always asks me, daddy, can you call mr. obama and find out how he's doing? son, if i could get in contact with him -- >> i think you could. i think carmelo anthony could. >> i probably could but i can't call and say, listen, mr. president, my son wants to talk to you. >> i think there's a short list of people who could do that. >> i'm grateful enough that he

know who president obama is and he looks up to him. >> i read you were 18 years old when you got your first big check. is that right? >> i just turned 19. >> how big was that check? >> it was a lot of zeros. >> like millions plus. >> i didn't really know. >> what did you do with that first check? >> i bought my mother a house first of all. bought me a car. living on my own, paying my own bills, opening up a checking account and getting taxed. >> what's fica? why is it taking all my money? >> why does it take half of my check? i had to become a man overnight. >> what's been the biggest honor if you will playing for the united states and the olympics? >> it's the best experience. >> bigger than playing for the knicks? >> it's a different feeling. it's much bigger than playing for the new york knicks. now i'm representing the city of new york. i'm representing the state of

new york. with the team usa i represent the whole country. in '08 when i won a gold medal and hear that national anthem and hold that flag up and hear everyone chanting usa in the stands gave me goose bumps. >> i liked him a lot. he was great. my kids came so he took pictures with my sons who could not speak. still ahead this morning on "starting point," money ball. how about magic ball. magic johnson buying one of the most storied baseball teams of all time. and could health care become president obama's running mate? the fate of his signature legislation could be in limbo. that's straight ahead. you're watching "starting point."

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♪ >> bruce springsteen from stephanie cutter's playlist. christine has a look at the headlines. >> the search resumes for a woman missing in a deadly wildfire in colorado. the bodies of an elderly couple found near their home in the fire zone in jefferson county. the fire destroyed 23 structures so far and scorched 4,500 acres. authorities canceled a precautionary evacuation of 6,500 homes after winds died down and residents there were no longer in danger. >> we'll start out there in the fire zone. rockies of colorado, wyoming and parts of montana. we'll see some winds today but most of it will be north of the fire zone. 30 to 40-mile-an-hour wind gusts

there. dry conditions. winds for the most part will be relatively light today and tomorrow. that will help fire firefighters g get a handle on that. zero percent containment there. severe thunderstorms across mid-atlantic states and big warmup after a bit of a chill or blast of reality shall we say from yesterday. 68 in new york city for the high temperature. that will be 81 in atlanta. 69 degrees expected in chicago. christine, back up to you. thanks, rob. in the 1980s he was a lake errr superstar. magic johnson now about to become an l.a. baseball owner. one of them. magic part of a group that won a bidding war for the dodgers. they'll pay $2 billion to buy the bankrupt franchise from frank mccourt. the deal still has to be approved in bankruptcy court. soledad? >> interesting. thank you. we're just hours away from

hearing what will likely be the last ever debate over president obama's health care legislation. the supreme court will question whether the constitutionality of the entire law is tied to the legality of what they talked about yesterday which is the individual mandate. that mandate was under intense fire. our own jeff toobin says it does not look good for the obama administration. listen. the days when the justices played devil's advocate in question, those days are gone. what you see is what you get. almost. not always but almost all the time. it sure looked like there were five votes to strike down the mandate. >> stephanie cutter is deputy manager of president obama's re-election campaign. good morning. nice to see you. thanks for being with us. >> good morning. >> you heard jeff toobin saying it was a train wreck yesterday. what do you think the political implications are of this if it's not upheld? >> well, let me first say that

let's remember that it's at the supreme court because it's worked its way up through the court system. we've seen very tough arguments. very similar arguments that we heard yesterday from conservative judges. both came around and ended up upholding the law. what happened yesterday is not foretelling of where the court is going to come out. we believe the law is constitutional and for good reason. it is activity in our economy when someone chooses not to get health care because they pass along the cost to you and me who do have health care and there are real consequences if the court doesn't uphold the law. those consequences are everything from parents not being able to put their adult children on their health care or kids with pre-existing conditions being discriminated against from insurance companies. this is a serious issue. it's something that the president is absolutely committed to seeing through. he's absolutely committed to ensuring everyone has access to quality affordable health care.

we're hopeful the court will find it constitutional. >> but what if? what if the court does not? what if the court finds it unconstitutional? what happens to the signature piece of legislation that president obama has put so much political capital into? what's the ramifications of that? >> i don't want to -- i know you are asking me about the politics. we don't want to engage in hypotheticals right now. we believe the law is constitutional. i did explain some of the consequences of what would happen if the court didn't find it constitutional. that's real impacts in people's lives. people are already benefiting from this law. what do you say to seniors getting 50% discount on prescription drugs that they no longer get that discount? those are consequences that we'll see. the court is in the middle of its arguments. today is the last day of arguments. we've got probably several months until it issues it's ruling. we have to see what it does.

people have been wrong in predicting how a court will rule. in 2009 the obama administration was arguing in front of the same court a voting rights act case. the press after the first day was like the press today. we're doomed. we're going to fail. the court will rule against it. it ended up ruling 8-1 for us on a voting rights case. >> i will tell you the press is often wrong. i'll tell you that for sure. >> those are your words, not mine. >> i have said them before i have to tell you. joe biden speaking in iowa. what's the strategy there? >> yes. yes. he's giving a speech in davenport, iowa, to lay out the real difference in visions on the economy between barack obama and joe biden who are building an economy meant to last. that starts with good manufacturing jobs, which are coming back after two decades of being lost in this country of being shipped overseas. they are coming back. we've had highest rate of growth in manufacturing over the last

15 years. if you compare that to economic vision of some of our potential opponents that it's very stark difference. we believe that workers are critical to success of our economy. we believe middle class is the foundation of a successful economy. the other side wants to go back to risky deals, outsourcing and philosophy if those at the top do well, everybody else will do well too. we saw that. we saw that throughout the last decade and it didn't work. so he's going to lay out fundamental difference in values in this economy in davenport, iowa, today. and we think that the choice is pretty clear. >> so president obama at the end of a press conference made a comment about trayvon martin, which everybody was talking about and continues to talk about. he said if i had a son, he would look like trayvon. we heard from competitors, newt gingrich and rick santorum saying this. listen. >> is the president suggesting

that if it had been a white who had been shot it would be okay because it wouldn't look like him? that's just nonsense. dividing this country up is a tragedy this young man was shot. >> and then again politicizing it. this is again not what presidents of the united states do. what the president of the united states should do is try to bring people together and not use these types of horrible and tragic individual cases to try to drive a wedge in america. >> do you think this case is dividing people and driving a wedge in america? >> that's certainly not what the president said. the president took a question the other day in the rose garden and he spoke from the heart. empathizing with parents who lost a son in a very tragic incident. i think it's despicable that people like newt gingrich and rick santorum are trying to make this a divisive issue. they should listen to their own words.

nobody doubts the president's commitment to bringing this country together. on their campaign trail and last desperate hopes as they move through the primary process, they should watch their own words. >> stephanie cutter is obama campaign deputy manager. thanks for talking with us. we appreciate it. straight ahead, bishop t.j. jakes joins us on how to forgive. his new book is called "let it go." my playlist hall and oats "private eyes." all energy development comes with some risk,

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let it go. bishop jakes has a new book. i read it. it was amazing. i'm not a particularly forgiving person. a lot of what you have -- will laughs. >> that's not true. >> it's really true. i'm not a mean person. >> she said it ten times this morning. >> there's a difference between being a mean person and not a forgiving person. what's your advice for helping people let it go? >> it's important that you let it know that forgiveness is not against pain. it is really toxic to your own heart and your own spirit. my contention is a gift you give yourself. it doesn't exonerate the perpetrator and have anything to do with justice. it just unlashes you from being attached to one event and allow that to continue to feed and

muster in your own heart. >> are there slights too big to be forgiven? >> forgiveness does not exonerate the perpetrator. it says i won't allow myself ten years from now to sit on the side of the bed seething in anger at this individual and it's saying that i unhitch myself from this incident and move on with my life. >> i get that you're saying i forgive you not for you but for me. i'm doing this for my own benefit. >> you say it's a zero sum game. there's a certain amount of space for blessings is the word you use in the book. if you are sort of filled with this other stuff, the good stuff can't come in. >> exactly. you only have so much energy to energy certain things. if you energize your history, you can't energize your destiny. you either go forward or backward. so many of us spend so much time regurgitating the same things over. >> that's human.

that's not hurtful. forgiveness is a constant theme christ comes back to again and again. my question for you is for folks who -- i always wonder, what advice do you give people who want to give forgiveness when it has not been sought? if someone has not asked for forgiveness, what advice do you give? >> that's covered in the book. >> that's a very important issue. some of us have forgiveness against people who are dead. if you allow them asking for forgiveness to be the catalyst whereby you are liberated, you give control back over to the person who may be evil and may be dead and not even think about you. they may not pay you back the money. they may never reconcile the issue in your life. this puts the thermostat to the air conditioning back in you rather than allowing your enemy or perpetrator to have thermostat in a room that you have to live in. it's about control. forgiveness is seizing control of your life and bringing it back within your reach not standing over a tomb asking someone who is dead to say if would you have apologized before

you died, i could have been happy the rest of my life. this is sad control. >> you don't need to hear someone say i'm sorry to forgive? >> you may not have that luxury. not every situation allows you to have that. you can forgive without it because forgiveness is a decision. >> i want you to walk us through that decision. i'm struggling on that. we have to take a commercial break. we'll continue our conversation with bishop t.d. jakes. with these 4g lte tablets, you can do business at lightning-fast speeds. we'll take all the strawberries, dave. you got it, kid. we have a winner. we're definitely gonna need another one. small businesses that want to grow use 4g lte technology from verizon. i wonder how she does it. that's why she's the boss. because the small business with the best technology rules. contact the verizon center for customers with disabilities at 1-800-974-6006.

welcome back. you're watching "starting point." there's more with bishop t.d. jakes with a new book out called "let it go forgive so you can be forgiven." i'm not the only person wrestling with this. can you forgive and elect not to allow that person in your life to repeat the harm they caused or is it a lack of forgiveness if you part ways. do you have to forgive and say i'll allow you to come back into my life? >> two different things. she's confusing forgiveness and trust. forgiveness is something that you do that is within your power to do it and your decision to be able to do it. just because i forgive you does not mean i want to do business with you again or i want to get remarried to you again.

that's trust. the onus of rebuilding trust is on the perpetrator. forgiveness is something i do myself. >> that's in conflict with forgive and forget. you're not suggesting we should have to forget? >> you can't forget unless there's something wrong with your brain. i think that's unrealistic. you can forgive so that the pain of the memory does not continue to contaminate your life. >> first step toward forgiving. what's the first thing you should do? >> you can't forgive what you don't confront. it's not realistic to say to his parents you should forgive zimmerman and the police. you can't forgive what you don't confront. you have to be strong enough to confront it and have your say. r you have to have a feeling of justice before you can move on. >> our end point is up next. bishop t.j. jakes with us. his book is called "let it go." commercial break. back in a moment.

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time for end point. i'll begin. will cain is 37 today. as we bring in our cake, i hope you have a knife for me. grab that. fantastic. we have one candle on will's cake. we won't let you get to end point today. we'll let you john, begin end point for us. >> never shot a massive bloated bureaucrat government bill through congress when people haven't had a chance to read it unless it's the patriot act. i'll be in albuquerque this saturday night with sexy liberal tour and my solo show is in seattle next tuesday. >> sexy liberal tour. very afraid. >> bishop, final word this morning. >> my end point is mental health, spiritual health is very important to you. getting control of your life and not allowing other people to control your space or mood or attitude. let it go. move forward. >> let it go, will cain. blow out