and talk to people, not just do fund-raisers. go out and talk to people in the country and find out what's happening. >> mitt romney certainly seems to be placing the blame on president obama. there's no doubt a nearly 40% drop is terrible. what's lost in the romney comments is the fact that the three years we're talking about, the three years the federal reserve study looked at, are from 2007 to 2010. president obama didn't take office till 2009. so president obama, and his supporters, say, well, you can't simply blame him. you have to look at the situation he inherited. in case you think i'm simply siding with president obama here in this tit-for-tat, let me point out president obama seems guilty in similar tactics in recent attacks on romney. he zings romney for some bad economic stats in massachusetts. some of which can also be blamed on, well, you guessed it, the economic situation he was handed when romney took office. keeping them both honest on both sides. here's tom foreman. >> reporter: let's look at those

numbers. if you ignored who the candidates were, you said what does it really tell us? look, here's the 2010 figure. according to that study of the median family worth. and by comparison to what was before in 2007 under george bush $126,000. if you just look at those two unin, this looks huge. it looks obviously like things were much better here than here. but the key is you have to go beyond that and you have to look at what's happening beyond it. which is the question of this. what were we losing money on. the simple truth is we lost money on our jobs because a lot of people weren't making the money they expected to make. we lost money on our savings because people weren't expecting that either. the big loser, this is the key to all this, the big loser is over here in the question of savings. or the question of home ownership. right there. that's where the big, big precipitous fall came in terms of what people were owning and where they lost all of their

family value. and look at this chart when that happened. if you look at u.s. home prices, the number one driving force in changing that change in value, net value, median home value, happened right in here. president obama didn't take office till about here. you can see this gigantic climb in home values. huge fall off the cliff. he wasn't in office till here. so you're absolutely right. to suggest that somehow it's his policies that led the way to all of this is simply not true. the numbers say that's not the case. >> mitt romney certainly is saying also that president obama hasn't done enough to help get home prices back up, get people out of the water fast enough. we mentioned in this intro the obama campaign's now going over romney's massachusetts record using kind of the same criteria they're crying foul against, no? >> you're right. republicans have a fair complaint to say maybe the president should have stopped this sooner. should have turned it around sooner.

that's an absolutely valid complaint. but on the other side, the democrats are now coming back at the republicans with the same tactics. they're saying romney, the figure they love to cite over and over again, he created fewer jobs than any other governor in the country. if you look at the increase from his time when he was in office to here, that's a small, like, 1% gain in terms of jobs in his state. what they're not counting is the nature of the economy in massachusetts. massachusetts was also hit by huge recession. right before he took office. one that hammered technology companies and massachusetts has a lot of them. so the simple truth is both sides are using the same trick on each other. there may be more or less blame either way. but it's the same trick. it's equally unfair on both sides. >> joining me now to get into the raw politics, kevin madden. democratic strategist and obama 2012 pollster cornell belcher.

he knows the president isn't responsible for the 40% drop in net worth. someone who heard the answer he gave this morning be able to tell that? >> i think the governor is talking more about the divide right now between the president's posture on the economy, some of the rhetoric that he's using, and the real -- the perceptions i think and the realities that americans are feeling every single day in this economy. the president's talked about that we're making progress and the private sector's doing fine. but people are feeling very real anxieties about everything like tom said about housing prices and the amount of savings that they have. and as well as the rising costs that they're seeing. whether it's at the gas pump or whether it's for food prices or everything from health care costs, energy costs, to education costs, higher education costs. all of those are rising right now. and the president's policies right now haven't done enough to get us out of the economic doldrums that we've seen over last four years. and that's the reason that we're having this election.

is we're putting a context right now of our vision for the future and how to fix the economy against president obama's and his policies and record over the last 3 1/2 years. >> gas prices have been falling. cornell -- >> they're still very high though. >> the obama campaign, cornell, is saying people should look at the upward trend of job creation under obama, take into account the dire economic situation he inherited. shouldn't the obama campaign do the exact same thing for judging mitt romney's record as governor of massachusetts? >> think when we judge romney's record in massachusetts, you have to look at what, in fact, he did, in massachusetts. you know, the same sort of policies he put in place in massachusetts is the same policies he put in place right now. which is, again, doubling down on giving massive tax breaks to very wealthy individuals, while raising taxes and fees on middle class families. and slashing public sector jobs. look, over the last 16 months, we've had positive job growth in the private sector. for last 16 month, we've lost jobs of teachers and first responders and firemen.

those are middle class jobs that count also. so, you know, tact insics aside it's about the policies romney would implement if he were president. giving breaks to the wealthy while struggling middle class families get the short shaft and the higher fees. >> something cornell referenced. the obama campaign has jumped on the comments mitt romney made. to cut government even smaller. romney seemed -- now saying, look, romney is taken out of context. let's play for viewers exactly what he said. >> more firemen, more teachers. did he not get the message of wisconsin? the american people did. it's time for us to cut back on government and help the american people! >> isn't the implication there we don't need firemen, police or teachers and to cut government, that's where you would fire? >> no, the implication is we have very different world views on how we help spur economic growth.

governor romney's made very clear that what we need to do is put more faith back in the american people. allow businesses both big and small to grow -- >> -- he's talking about cutting government and he's citing teachers -- but he's citing teachers, firemen and police -- >> -- we help spur the economic growth by putting federal taxpayer dollars into growing the size of government and hiring more government workers it the big problem here is that in order to get the local tax base. that's the other thing to remember too. localities. they're the ones that hire first responders. they're the ones primarily responsible for education funding. what happens is we're not going to have a federal government write a check. what happens when those -- when that money is gone. if you have a one-time hit, what happens when you don't have a local economic growth -- >> but, again -- >> if you don't have the growth in the local economic base, you can't sustain teacher, firemen and police officers. what you have to do is grow the economic base. >> doesn't it sound like romney

is saying we don't need more teacher, firemen or policemen and we got to cut government? is he saying to cut -- to fire some? >> no, no. i think he's saying that when we're looking at growing the economy, the most important thing to do is grow the private sector. when you have a very robust private sector, then you can sustain the jobs of firemen, teachers and policemen. look, that's an important point that governor walker even made. >> cornell, is that -- you think what romney was saying? >> look, i think what you see is two very different visions. all due respect to the other side on this. you see one vision where you see president obama saying, you know what, we got to invest in those things that help empower the middle clasp it the idea we're going to cut teachers and police officers and somehow that's going to lead to a more pros purse and stronger and safer future for americans -- you have to scratch your head. i mean, you know what kind of thought process is it that if i cut back on teachers, i have less kids getting, you know, into college and i cut back on first responders, somehow that's going to help our country grow

and be successful? i mean, i just -- you know, with all due respect, you have two very different visions. with one about investing in those things that help the middle class grow and the other about cut back on those things that help the middle class grow. >> let us know what you think. send me a tweet. @andersoncooper. a stunning day in the jerry sandusky trial. prosecutors calling two powerful witnesses. jury's hearing from the accuser. and also from the penn state coach who claimed he actually caught sandusky in the act. we have a live report from the courthouse. plus latest on the deadly and fast-moving wildfire in colorado. chad myers tells us why firefighters could face a tougher battle tomorrow -- next. where is it ? it's gone. we'll find it. any day can be an adventure.

that's why we got a subaru. love wherever the road takes you. wow, there it is. tdd# 1-800-345-2550 you and your money deserve. tdd# 1-800-345-2550 at charles schwab, that means taking a close look at you tdd# 1-800-345-2550 as well as your portfolio. tdd# 1-800-345-2550 we ask the right questions, tdd# 1-800-345-2550 then we actually listen to the answers

tdd# 1-800-345-2550 before giving you practical ideas you can act on. tdd# 1-800-345-2550 so talk to chuck online, on the phone, tdd# 1-800-345-2550 or come in and pull up a chair. throughout our entire lives. ♪ one a day men's 50+ is a complete multi-vitamin designed for men's health concerns as we age. ♪

it has more of seven antioxidants to support cell health. that's one a day men's 50+ healthy advantage. graphic emotional testimony today in the jerry sandusky trial coming from two of the prosecuti prosecution's star witnesses. it started with the now

18-year-old accuser whose allegations first triggered this entire criminal investigation against the penn state assistant coach. in court documents, he's known as victim number one. he's described meeting sandusky when he was just 11 years old and detailed how their contact escalated from kissing to repeated sexual a salt. jurors also hear from the mike mcqueary the former member of the coaching staff at penn state. says he witnessed san ducky in the middle of a sexual act in the locker room. prosecutors allege that former penn state vice president gary shultz who's facing perjury charges in the case withheld information during the investigation. our national correspondent jason carroll, who's covering the trial. also cnn contributor sarah gannon, who won a pulitzer prize for her coverage. also, former federal prosecutor jeffrey toobin. one of the most powerful

witnesses was accuser number one. what did you hear today? >> based on courtroom reaction, anderson, it was extremely compelling. this is an 18-year-old young man. when he walked into the courtroom, he looked vulnerable. quite frankly, he looked scared. when he sat down and began to testify, he really became emotional when he described the abuse which he says began in 2005 at the hands of jerry sandusky. mostly occurring in the basement of sandusky's home. anderson, he said it always began the same way. started with a back rub. he went on to say, quote, after rubbing and cracking my back, putting his hands down my shorts and blowing on my stomach, he, he had -- then they paused for a moment, broke down and began crying. before he could finish, he looked directly at jerry sandusky who was sitting in the front of the courtroom. jerry sandusky looked at him. then he went on to say, he put his mouth on my privates. at that moment, i looked at the jurors who were sitting over to my left. juror number 9, she's an elderly woman in her 70s. if you recall, during jury

selection, she was one of those who said, i feel as though it's my duty to protect children. she had her hand over her mouth during this testimony. so it clearly had a major impact on her. >> sarah, the sandusky defense attorney, joe amendola really pressed witness number one. inconsistencies in his grand jury testimony. how did he handle that? >> honestly, anderson, he broke down at one point. and looked directly at the prosecutor and asked him for help. he say, please make him stop asking me the same question. you know, it was interesting, because during cross examination, joe amendola was harping on the fact his story changed slightly. accuser number one said on the stand -- he was quite honest, i thought, with jurors. he said, look, i testified three times before a grand jury. i told my story to multiple police officers. every time, it was someone new. i didn't feel comfortable with someone new. i was embarrassed and i was holding back. i'm hear today telling the

truth. amendola kept coming back at him with the same question. he just broke down at one point. you know, he's 18 years old. and he looked at the prosecutor. he got no help. he gathered himself. he answered the question one more time. then they moved on. >> how does that play to a jury? he's pressing a witness about apparent inconsistencies. is that a winning strategy? >> often it is. in this case, i doubt it. given the magnitude of these charges. given the number of accusers. given how embarrassing the information is. it would not be surprising if an 18-year-old kid told the story somewhat differently. look, amen dola is doing his job. i don't begrudge him that. what's mike mcqueary's incentive to lie here? he looks horrible. he's the one who didn't go to the police when he sees jerry sandusky ra dusdusk dusky r pai.

why would he lie about this? yes, it's possible someone would could have told inconsistent stories. >> what did mcqueary say on the stand today? >> mike mcqueary has basically been saying a lot of what we've been hearing all along. basically, he said he went into that locker room during that alleged incident. heard rihythmic sort of slappin sounds. skin on skin count. we he says he allegedly saw jerry sandusky embracing a young boy. at one point that really seemed to grab the juror's attention. was when prosecutors put up a huge video screen and showed actual pictures of the show. and then put mannequins to position it exactly where sandusky was standing and where this young boy was standing. certain point, the defense tried

to poke holes into mcqueary's theory. what sort of specifics were you telling others about this, university officials. but mcqueary seemed to stand by his story. saying all along i know what i saw. >> what about these allegations of new documents that were released today that alleged that officials at penn state withheld the evidence that was subpoenaed by the grand jury? >> it was actually part of the response that prosecutors filed because one of those officials, gary shultz, is trying to get his charges dropped. so prosecutors filed this response that said, look we just obtained these new documents that show more evidence in your case. they're using it to bolster their case. they're saying he kept some kind of file. we don't know the contents of the file. only it was some kind of file about allegations made against jerry sandusky. we know shultz, this defendant, is one of the only people that knew about several different allegations.

because he was the director of the police department. and there had been a report to police in 1998. and then he was also involved in the report that mike mcqueary is involved in. >> i understand we just got a response from his attorney. >> that's right. i'm reading it to you right now. it's just come to me on my blackberry. this comes from tom ferrell. he represents shultz. he said, mr. shutz did not possess any secret files. all his files were left behind after he retired and were available to his secretaries and his successor. the only, quote, secret, information revealed was the information inaccurately described by unidentified law enforcement sources to the media. that statement coming to us just a few moments ago from tom ferrell, gary shultz's attorney. anderson. >> how long do you think it's going on? >> a few more weeks. he said -- the judge has said he's going to do this quickly, in a couple weeks. i just find it hard to believe

it's going -- you can get that much testimony in that quickly. >> do you think sandusky will take the stand? >> i think it is out of the question. i just don't see how he can possibly respond to all this testimony. >> jeffrey toobin, appreciate it. coming up next, stunning new report levels some serious allegations against the syrian government, saying they're specifically targeting children, torturing them, killing them, using them even as human shields. details ahead. you name it, we're here, anytime, anywhere, any way you want it. that's the way i need it. any way you want it. [ man ] all night? all night. every night? any way you want it. that's the way i need it. we just had ourselves a little journey moment there. yep. [ man ] saw 'em in '83 in fresno. place was crawling with chicks. i got to go. ♪ any way you want it ♪ that's the way you need it ♪ any way you want it ♪

with your photographs. ( younger sister ) where's heaven ? ( older sister ) far. what will you inspire, with the eos rebel t3i and ef lenses, for ron's next project ? learn more at youtube.

in your car. now count the number of buttons on your tablet. isn't it time the automobile advanced? introducing cue in the all-new cadillac xts. the simplicity of a tablet has come to your car. ♪ the all-new cadillac xts has arrived. and it's bringing the future forward.

george zimmerman's wife is arrested.

for months, we've reported on allegations by the regime of

bashar al assad in syria. shocking abuses of kids. really unprecedented attacks on children in this conflict. saying the pro regime forces have used children as young as 8 years old as human shields. eyewitnesses say children of suspected dissidents are being captured and tortured. adults who have simply spoken out against the regime have had their children arrested and tortured. stress positions, whippings with heavy electric cables. cigarette burns. at least one incident, an electrical shock to the genitals. this is on children that we're talking about. the u.n. peacekeeping chief now calling the conflict an all-out civil war. thugs are physically preventing monitors from observing a cease-fire. a cease-fire that doesn't exist, it's in name only. have blocked the security council from taking any significant action against al assad. clinton accused russia of

sending damascus helicopters like this one. regime forces firing rockets over northern alepo province. >> we have confronted the russians about stopping their continued arms shipments to syria. they have from time to time said we shouldn't worry, everything they're shipping is unrelated to their actions internally. that's patently untrue. and we are concerned about the latest information we have, that there are attack helicopters on the way from russia to syria, which will escalate the conflict quite dramatically. >> human rights watch is begging the u.n. security council to tighten economic sanctions and impose an arms embargo on the syrian government. this war photographer spend more than two months under siege in homs. we showed you devastating

footage from a makeshift hospital. robert king has made his way out of the country. he joins me from beirut. i'm so glad you're safe. and that you've been able to focus world attention on what's happening inside syria. the u.n. now has this new report. they say the assad regime is targeting children as young as 9 years old. they're the victims of killings. detention. children used as human shields. we've been documenting. we've seen this for last 15 months. the u.n. special representatives on children and conflict says she's never seen such targeting of children it you've seen it firsthand. you saw children, correct? >> yes. it was horrifying. saw more children than i've seen in 20 years of covering conflicts that have been wounded by this butcher, this regime. and their only crime is they're children of the revolution. >> have you ever seen that in other places? have you seen children directly targeted? at this level?

>> no. in fact, it's horrifying. there's no real words to describe the type of war crimes that are taking place. it is just one small city, town. in syria. but may represent what's taking place all across the country. >> the u.n. peacekeeping chief says syria is now in full-scale civil war, do you agree? >> i think it's still an ethnic cleansing process. i don't think the army has enough weapons to conduct a civil war. to have a civil war, both sides have to be relatively armed. against light weapons, against heavy weapons. i don't think there's any room for reconciliation. i think that line has been crossed. so the next phase of this conflict would be an all-out civil war. whether it's starting now or a week from now or a month from

now. i don't know when that will take place. but it's obvious the country's heading in that direction, if it's not already there. >> but this is ethnic cleansing to you? >> yes, you know, they're killing the revolutionaries. then they're going after their children to kill them. the reports of them raping the women. so you're wiping out two, three generations of people and to me that is -- describes ethnic cleansing. >> clinton said today the u.s. is concerned russia is shipping attack helicopters to syria. how would that change the dynamic on the ground? just yesterday we had reports of helicopters being used, which is clearly, if true, an escalation of the conflict. how would helicopters change the dynamic? >> yes, they are using. they're already using helicopters. i've heard from the people of

alcaser yesterday that they were using airplanes. >> you saw a lot of death very up close. you're now out. sometimes when you leave a conflict zone, i know you haven't had much time to reflect. but, you know, you have at least a little distance. you probably have a little more sleep than you've had before. what do you think about now? i mean what is it like to no longer there be? what stays with you? >> just the stories. the people. there's a bit of survival guilt. a little bit of remorse. just the friends i made along the way. and -- i want to continue the relationships we've built over this time. but i also have to continue and report on what's going on in their country. >> would you want to go back to syria? >> yeah, of course. maybe not to the same town but, you know, i'm not done there. i'm not going to let our colleagues die in vain. i'm not going to be intimidated by this regime.

and i'll continue to do my rock. >> well, robert, i really appreciate you talking with us. again, you've taken so many risks to try to get these images out. i really just -- i thank you for that. >> okay, thank you, anderson, i really thank you. >> very brave reporter. coming up, a story we've been following for years that keeps getting, well, more intense. a school in massachusetts that uses electric shocks on its students. students with severe developmental behavioral problems. autistic students. report from human rights organization goes into graphic detail with what they say are more i tooing claims about what's happening at the school. they call it torture pure and simple. i'll talk with an attorney for the school when we continue. not once in my life

did i ever think i would have heart disease. she just didn't fit the profile of a heart event victim. she's healthy, she eats properly. i was pushing my two kids in a stroller when i had my heart event. i've been on a bayer aspirin regimen ever since. [ male announcer ] aspirin is not appropriate for everyone. so be sure to talk to your doctor before you begin an aspirin regimen. i know if i take my bayer aspirin i have a better chance of living a healthy life. [ male announcer ] learn how to protect your heart at i am proheart on facebook. a body at rest tends to stay at rest... while a body in motion tends to stay in motion. staying active can actually ease arthritis symptoms. but if you have arthritis, staying active can be difficult. prescription celebrex can help relieve arthritis pain so your body can stay in motion. because just one 200mg celebrex a day can provide 24 hour relief for many with arthritis pain and inflammation.

plus, in clinical studies, celebrex is proven to improve daily physical function so moving is easier. celebrex can be taken with or without food. and it's not a narcotic. you and your doctor should balance the benefits with the risks. all prescription nsaids, like celebrex, ibuprofen, naproxen, and meloxicam have the same cardiovascular warning. they all may increase the chance of heart attack or stroke, which can lead to death. this chance increases if you have heart disease or risk factors such as high blood pressure or when nsaids are taken for long periods. nsaids, including celebrex, increase the chance of serious skin or allergic reactions or stomach and intestine problems, such as bleeding and ulcers, which can occur without warning and may cause death. patients also taking aspirin and the elderly are at increased risk for stomach bleeding and ulcers. do not take celebrex if you've had an asthma attack, hives, or other allergies to aspirin, nsaids or sulfonamides. get help right away if you have swelling of the face or throat, or trouble breathing. tell your doctor your medical history and find an arthritis treatment for you.

visit celebrex.com and ask your doctor about celebrex. for a body in motion. the fast moving wildfire in colorado turning deadly. more fire crews on their way to battle the flames. will the weather help or hurt their efforts? of bedrock. concrete. and steel. our cloud is the smartest brains combating the latest security threats. it spans oceans, stretches continents. and is scalable as far as the mind can see. our cloud is the cloud other clouds look up to. welcome to the uppernet.

another keeping them honest report. it's a story of a school called the judge rosenberg center in massachusetts. are given electrical shocks to try to control their behavior sfim sometimes they're strapped down with restraints and shocked. the school says it's the last refuge for some students no other facility will take. there are parents who stand by the school and say it has saved their children's lives. there's public outcry over what's going on at the school. the jrc for short. reached a new level when a video was released showing the so-called aversive therapy technique the school uses. i want to warn you, it's hard to watch. it shows a then 18-year-old student named andre mccollins being shocked 31 times over the

course of seven hours. [ child screaming ] the video is from 2002. mccollins is no longer at the facility. his family recently settled a lawsuit against the jrc. now, as we said, nearly every time we dig into this story, we find new elements. we uncovered this report from a group called mental disability rights international. a human rights organization that advocates for people with disabilities. in 2010, the group issued an urgent appeal, saying the severe pain and suffering perpetrated against children and adults with disability at jrc violates the u.n. convention against torture. the report quotes former students and teachers from the school. their accounts suggest the treatment goes far beyd the electrical shocks you just saw. some of the treatment is called behavioral research lessons. one former student quoted in this report described them like this. they try and make you do a bad behavior and then they punish you. two guys came in the room and grabbed me. i had no idea what was going on.

they held a knife to my throat and i started to scream and i got shocked. i had brls three times a week for stuff i didn't even do. it went on for about six months or more. i was in a constant state of paranoia or fear. it was more stress than i could ever imagine. horror. the jrc denies that any student has ever been threatened with violence to elicit an unacceptable behavior. the school compares the shocks to a bee sting. in this report, a former student says it's much worse. i got the shocks for swearing. saying no, leaving a supervised area without asking, and even for pop a pimple. any noncompliant behavior. i had one electrode on each arm. it was the worst pain, like a third degree burn. they tell people it feels like a bee sting but they lie. also described in the report, systematically withholding food. being deprived of food all day. in the evening, in their behavior improve, getting some sort of mashed food sprinkled

with liver power. here is a lawyer for the jrc. also dr. louis craus. roush university medical center in chicago. doctor, as a child psychiatrist, you say treatment like this is tantamount to using cattle prods on autistic children. aren't there some kids who simply can't be controlled any other way? that's what the school officials say. and have been rejected by other schools. >> you know, that's ridiculous. as though this is the only school in the country that takes care of very difficult children. their probably isn't a state in our nation that doesn't take care of kids like this. but they don't use these types of adversive treatments. there are many other treatments that have research bases to them. that can be used often in a multidisciplinary-type way. often bringing in consultants when necessary. but not using aveadversive therapy. >> why is no other school in the country -- and we can't find

anyone else in the world using it? >> the schools that say they don't use it, that treat the tough kids, the very difficult behavior disordered students that they can't treat without the adversives, they come to jrc. so jrc is treating the most difficult cases of behavior disorders in the nation. the toughest cases are at jrc. >> doctor, do you buy that? >> i don't. i've worked in several residential facilities. i worked at the illinois state maximum security youth certanten joliet for years. i just don't buy it. developmental pediatricians that work in very tough facilities. with kids that do really disastrous things. there are other techniques. simply because somebody has a no refusal policy doesn't mean they're necessarily taking care of the toughest kids. it means they want to get as many kids as they can.

>> michael, the thing -- even the toughest prisoners in this country are not allowed to be, you know, strapped to electrodes and have shocks given to them to control their behavior. even the wildest animals are not systematically shocked. so why is it okay to do this to kids? some of whom who can't even communicate? >> well, it's just an absurd comparison. >> why is it an absurd comparison? you have prisoners who have violent, a threat to others -- >> anderson, let me answer your question. you wouldn't perform any treatment on a prisoner if they didn't need it. you wouldn't do dentistry. you wouldn't give them chemotherapy. you wouldn't amputate a limb. you don't give any treatment to a prisoner. you give treatment to someone who needs a treatment. the students at jrc, the clients at jrc, they've been trying. all these other programs, they were expelled from these programs. >> why is it humane to do this to a child when it's not humane to do this to a hardened

criminal? >> why is it humane to just let them bash their heads till they have a stroke? why is it humane to give them so much antipsychotic medication that they are canatonic? >> it's not just severe behavior. sometimes it's done to prevent, like with the severe behavior, you know, noncompliant behavior. if a student gets out of seat, they can be shocked. >> it's false. all of this treatment is approved by the court. it's approved by the parents. it's approved by physicians. >> mccollins when he was shocked more than 30 times over the course of seven hours and strapped down in four-point restraints that was all priorly approved by the courts? >> yeah, he had attacked a staff person earlier that day. he was struggling with the staff. the staff were doing everything they could to help him. >> so you're saying he needed -- but you're saying he needed to be shocked more than 30 times over the course of seven hours? >> well, at the trial, the

expert for the plaintiff, mrs. mccolin, testified thatted an verdiadversives are needed f some people. adversives were needed for andre mccollins. his opinion was on that day they should have stopped after five applications. this is something that happened ten years ago -- >> that doctor who is saying they should have stopped -- you just said this stuff is all court approved. and doctor approved. you just talked about somebody who said no, this kid did not need to be shocked 30 times over seven hours. >> no, this is the plaintiff's expert at the trial. you're missing the important point, anderson. adversives, he testified, adversatives are needed for some tough cases. adversives were needed for andre mccollins. on that day with that severe behavioral outbursts, he would have stopped after five application. this is ten years ago. this is now how jrc would handle it ten years into the future,

which is where we are now. >> the treatment of these types of kids for shocks, i mean, can you imagine any situation where shocks would be valuable? >> i cannot imagine any situation where using this type of shock treatment or any type of adversive treatment would be a reasonable approach to help these kids. when you look over the report among some of the kids that are accepted into this program, you've got kids with posttraumatic stress disorder. the concept of shocking these kids. if you look at the practice parameter for the american academy for child and adolescent psychology. the treatment of children in residential facilities. this just came out. they're very specific about not using adversive treatment. they're very specific on using multidisciplinary approaches. and this -- there's no construct of this occurring. you know, this is all based on

antiquated theory. from skinner that basically has been debunked many years ago. human beings are much more complicated than simply behavior. >> michael this report from this organization you say what, that it's -- it's just false? >> well, they're -- no, it's a joke. i mean, that agency never told jrc they were doing an investigation. they never came to jrc. they never asked to come to jrc. they only talk to people on the internet, on record, being against adversives. it wasn't an investigation. the report isn't worth the paper it's written on. the fact of the matter is i've been representing the school for over 20 years, anderson. i see these people. they are on so much medication they can't even open their eyes. they can barely walk. they're drooling on themselves. they're coming from the institutions that say they can treat these behavior disorders without adversives. guess what, they can, they just sedate them. they see these kids getting less

applications a week. the behavior's gone. they're in the classroom. they're learning. far more humane than what this doctor is talking about. >> doctor, do you agree this might work to control behavior? it seems like what you're saying this is just unethical, just inappropriate, whether or not it actually can control some behavior. >> there are a couple of issues here. number one, adversive treatment at best is painful. at worse, potentially a torturous process. it is not research based. it is not peer reviewed. this type of treatment was used prior to sensory integration modalities with occupational therapy. prior to different types of medication managements. prior to more intensive speech and language work. prior to positive behavioral treatment plans being implemented. some would take -- most of my work is with child advocacy. i certainly use psychotropic

medications in my regimes. it's one small part of what we do. the reality is -- >> but it's what these kids -- >> excuse me, i would -- >> let him -- >> -- these kids with behavioral disorder, that's what they get. they get that small part of the doctor's practice he's talking about. they get the drugs. massive doses of drugs. >> dr. kraussy's basically saying you guys dope these kids up. >> i understand. he's cutting me off. he apparently didn't like what i was saying. the reality is the child psychiatrists really don't dope kids up. there are medications. clearly tranquilizers that can potentially be used. that is not what we do in the great majority of children. >> okay. >> when medications are used. the point is -- you know what -- >> small majority of students -- >> you're a joke, sir -- >> we get the small majority of students this doctor is talking about. the doctor's not familiar with

the literature. in the last five year, there have been several peer reviewed articles -- >> michael, come on, if this thing worked it would be used more across the nation. it would be used in some other country. no other place uses this. the guy who runs your school and came up with it had to resign. >> no, it's being used in other countries -- >> didn't the guy who created the school have to resign? >> he retired, okay -- >> under -- to avoid prosecution. >> well, you come to the school, anderson, you'll see these kids, you'll see how -- >> again, you're not answering -- >> yeah, but anderson -- >> destroyed videotapes -- >> are we here to talk about the treatment? is that the issue, anderson? >> you're talking about how this is peer reviewed and is so widely approved. if the guy who created this destroyed documents and had to resign to avoid prosecution, that's part of the story. >> i'm talking about the peer

reviewed articles. the kids that you're forgetting about, anderson, you're not focusing on. >> i appreciate you being on and doctor as well. >> if i could establish, i'm not aware of any peer reviewed articles but so much again. >> the doctor needs to look more closely. >> send us all your peer reviewed articles. >> i'd be happy to do that. up next, the latest on the dead lie wily wildfire in color.

colorado's massive fire now

covered 68 square miles. the fire's claimed its first victim. a 62-year-old woman whose body was found inside her burned home. officials hoped to send 30 field crews in tomorrow. it's so big, you can see the smoke from denver 60 miles away. evacuated pets are being housed at the county humane society. some people are refusing to evacuate. want to go to meteorologist chad myers for more. what is it going to look like tomorrow, chad? >> it's going to look bad. the western flank. this is roosevelt national park. the problem is, we talked about this a little bit yesterday, in that national park, 70% of the trees are dead because of a beetle infestation. so this isn't burning live trees. this is burning just dead timber that's just ready to burn. the good news is not many people live out that way because it is national park. this thing grew about 10,000 acres. 7,000 to 10,000 acres overnight. that's about ten square miles. and today was a good day. the winds weren't bad.

winds were down. tomorrow, they pick up a little bit. even at this point in time, gusgust s only 16 miles per hour, anderson. you get higher elevation though. higher up towards estes park. we have gusts to 22. that's the danger category. that's when sparks can fly. we won't get those winds tomorrow. they will die off. thursday, we could see thunderstorms. that sounds like a good thing. except for the lightning part. but very little rain. saturday and sunday, the winds could be back to 40. they need to get a handle on this tomorrow. a lot more following. let's check in with isha. >> george zimmerman's wife, shelly, is free on bail tonight, after being arrested on a perjury charge. prosecutors say she lied at her husband's bond hearing about their finances. due to those accusations, a judge ordered george zimmerman back to jail earlier this month. she helped one of boston's most wanted evade police for 16 years. now catherine greg is preparing

to serve hard time. a judge sentenced the girlfriend of alleged mobster james whitey bulger to eight years in prison. her lawyer says she has no regrets. a big reversal in the case of the alleged new york soccer mom madam. an appeals court reducing the bond to $250,000. she will still need to wear a monitoring bracelet. she pleaded not guilty to charges of promoting prostitution. reporters had tough competition getting the attention of l.a. kings goalie jonathan quick after winning the mvp title in the team's first stanley cup victory. his young daughter, madison, ran around, waving at kings flag, and calling for her dad. she's the boss. >> she should be. isha, thanks. we'll be right back. look at the car! my dad's gonna kill me dude...

[ male announcer ] the security of a 2012 iihs top safety pick. the volkswagen passat. that's the power of german engineering. right now lease the 2012 passat for $209 a month. visit vwdealer.com today. and here's what we did today: supported nearly 3 million steady jobs across our country... ... scientists, technicians, engineers, machinists... ... adding nearly 400 billion dollars to our economy... we're at work providing power to almost a quarter of our homes and businesses...

... and giving us cleaner rides to work and school... and tomorrow, we could do even more. cleaner, domestic, abundant and creating jobs now. we're america's natural gas. the smarter power, today. learn more at anga.us. we asked total strangers to watch it for us. thank you so much, i appreciate it, i'll be right back. they didn't take a dime. how much in fees does your bank take to watch your money ? if your bank takes more money than a stranger, you need an ally. ally bank. no nonsense. just people sense. mcallen, texas. in here, heavy rental equipment in the middle of nowhere, is always headed somewhere. to give it a sense of direction, at&t created a mobile asset solution to protect and track everything. so every piece of equipment knows where it is,

how it's doing or where it goes next. ♪ this is the bell on the cat. [ male announcer ] it's a network of possibilities -- helping you do what you do... even better. ♪ we ran out of time tonight. we went long in one of our debates. that does it for us. we'll see you in one hour from now. "piers morgan tonight" is next

with casey anthony's attorney. he's piers's guest tonight. before the two sat down for the interview, mason called casey anthony so she could speak with piers exclusively. "piers morgan tonight" starts now. -- captions by vitac -- www.vitac.com cool casey anthony breaks her silence to me. she tells me she's not a party girl. she's ashamed of the person she was and she didn't kill young caylee. plus, star witness. teenager known as victim number one. shocking charges against sandusky. and the former penn state assistant coach who says he caught sandusky in the shower with a boy. plus, what may be the most stunning revelation ever about the cast of "dallas." >> we're the best of friends and have been for 30 years. >> linda gray and patrick duffy from the imal