the fact that the witness i cross examined, mike mcqueary, did not sustain the count of sodomy that the government had promised which cost joe paterno his job. we felt we were a little rushed based on the fact that discovery was given to us, thousands of pages, right before trial started. but joe amendola rose to the occasion and we presented some key evidence. that's part of the reason we got the acquittals that we did. >> people have been raising eyebrows at joe amendola's conduct over the last couple of days. he seems to be taking a strangely frivolous view of what is going on, cracking jokes, saying today he would have a heart attack if his client was acquitted. what was that about? >> well, you know, you have to understand joe has worked tirelessly, and i mean the man has worked 17-hour days, dinner

being brought to him at his home. i've seen the work he's done. he's vetted all the tapes, one of the persons that found the silver bullet that we thought we had that showed the police misconduct. so if he appears frivolous on the surface, he's worked this case harder than any attorney i've seen. >> is it your intention now to appeal? >> we will appeal. we have several issues. the judge ruled against us but acknowledged the law was tight in the area and it may be a novel argument. the danger for the government by going forward with victim eight, is if we're successful on the appeal, the entire set of charges is likely to come back for a trial. >> most legal experts are saying there's no chance for a

successful appeal tonight. that's been the reaction so far. >> well, i understand that. what i'll say to those legal experts, i agree with them that an appeal is not going to be easy. but what i would say they weren't in all the closed sessions. they didn't hear everything that was on the record and they're unaware of the actual record that exists because a lot of it isn't public. >> there was suggestions that jerry sandusky wanted to testify, wanted to go on the stand. but in tend he didn't. why was that? >> jerry did want to testify, but we never made a commitment in the sense we were 100% positive. i think in the beginning we thought he would need to testify. after the trial was under way, and when the government made known that they had certain witnesses, and also based on the fact that the government was unable or unwilling to put in the entire nbc interview, we made a decision based on what

felt was a good punch against the investigation and the tape not to bring him to the stand. so no one thing comes to mind. but i thought it was a wise decision, because a good prosecutor can make an innocent man look guilty. >> carl remminger, thank you very much. a dramatic resolution to a highly charged, emotional trial. i want to play for you what attorney general linda kelly said tonight. she spoke shortly after the verdict. >> one of the recurring themes of the witness' testimony, which came from the voices of the victims themselves in this case was, who would believe a kid? and the answer is, we here in bellefon bellefonte, pennsylvania will believe a kid. >> this is jerry sandusky in

prison, his booking photo. a man behind bars where he's likely to stay now for the rest of his life. i want to go to the attorney for victims number three and seven. what is your reaction of your client to jerry sandusky's conviction? >> i spoke with my clients as soon as i was able to leave the courtroom this evening after hearing the verdict. i described the scene to them, and truthfully, in many ways, there was an element of disbelief. extremely relieved. my clients both expressed a great deal of relief that this has finally kurd. one of them said, thank god he's in jail. another one said it's been a long time coming. so a great deal of relief and gratitude to this jury for hearing what they had to say in this courthouse. >> it took a lot of courage for

your clients to take the stand and you could tell how emotional and painful it was to relive the experiences they had to endure at the hands of jerry sandusky. what is your feeling about sandusky? >> my personal feeling about jerry sandusky is that this is the first time that he has ever been held accountable for what he's done. he got what he deserved tonight. i believe that is how my clients feel. i know that's how they feel. i believe that this jury saw the courage of my clients and the other victims who testified in this case and responded. they got up there and they told the truth about something that many, many adult survivors of childhood sexual abuse keep secret for their whole lives. they told the truth in front of the world and it took a great deal of courage to do so. >> will they be pursuing civil

actions, either of your clients? >> at this point, the facts are still developing in this case. i have no doubt there will be civil actions. we have a dual justice system in this country. the civil system, i believe, will uncover even more information about who needs to be held accountable in these cases. and at this point, though, we're just focused on this evening and tonight is the victim's night. it's the night that jerry sandusky goes to jail after many, many, many, many years. >> it certainly is, and my congratulations to you and your team and my very best wishes to your client. you've obviously had to endure this for a very long time and tonight at least have seen the monster responsible end up behind bars. thank you very much for joining me. >> thank you. thank you very much. joining me now is attorney and author lisa bloom. lisa, pretty dramatic scenes

tonight. what is your sense of what should happen next >> i'll tell you what should happen next that probably won't. you talk about the monster of jerry sandusky. there are other monsters in this story. the adults that knew for 14 years knew there was a child rapist in their midst and failed to act. why? because they wanted to protect a football team. a football team over children that they actually saw being raped. i'm talking about local law enforcement, campus police, university administrators. here's all of these people that had reports and failed to fact. and we here children will be believed for law enforcement in pennsylvania. they were believed in 2012 and 2011, but what about the last 14 years? what about all of these adults who failed to act? there were child endangerment charges brought in philadelphia today against the priest that saw there was molestation and failed to act and protect.

i would like to see these other adults who knew as much as 14 years ago, that this was going on and failed to protect children. i would like to see them charged, too. >> i think a lot of people feel that, and then there's the hero worship toward joe paterno has almost blurred the lines of how this should be viewed. i didn't hero worship him because i looked at a man who clearly been aware of what was happening and clearly either turned a blind eye or willfully covered up for what jerry sandusky was doing. as a result, other young boys were abused. >> one of the witnesses in this case who said he saw with his own two eyes a child being raped in the shower by jerry sandusky, said it was one of the most difficult decisions in his life whether he was going to go to the police or not and didn't go to the police. why is that a difficult decision? you seea child being raped and you think it's a difficult

decision? what is wrong with us? we put sports above a child being raped? >> putting aside the rape, the mere fact that he concedes and admits that he was regularly having naked showers with these boys -- >> of course. >> is abuse in itself. that's what i wouldn't understand. he's already admitting a form of child abuse. >> a janitor said he saw oral sex being performed. he told another adult. neither of them went to the police, because football is more important? i mean, this is astounding to me, and we have to call this what is it is. it's child endangerment. when an adult sees a child being assaulted or molested and doesn't report it, the time has come to round up those people and accuse them of child endangerment, because that's what it is. >> the investigation should be carrying on at a fast rate to get to the bottom of who knew

what when and who covered up. >> are law enforcement so blinded by the aura of big sports that they didn't do anything? >> sara, you've been involved in this right from the start. you heard a very highly charged lisa bloom there saying other scalps should be taken. what do you think of that? >> well, it's not about what i think. this is not a case that's over. and maybe with jerry sandusky, maybe he won't be charged again. that's something prosecutor also have to decide. but within this community, this isn't over. this is something that's affected penn state. this is a very big state in a very small town. a very close town. penn state university still has two officials who are charged with perjury and failing to report an incident. the one that you guys were just talking about. there's a potential for more

charges. the a.g. was walking around, the attorney general was walking around saying it's an ongoing investigation. people are still going before the grand jury. we heard from men who are coming forward as soon as this week saying that they too are victims. one of them was jerry sandusky's adopted son. even though i think there was a sense that you could feel, just because of the sheer amount of people who ended upcoming out to the courthouse to hear the verdict, that they wanted some kind of closure and answers, i don't think that this is something that's going to stop. i think it's something that's onedness going and it will be several years before it's resolved or we know what happened or who knew what exactly and when they knew it. >> do you feel that the conviction of jerry sandusky may open the flood gates to you to a proper investigation in which people are far more forthcoming,

in the sense that jerry sandusky was a well respected figure for a long time, despite what he was doing and worked closely with paterno, who was a legend. and this may have blurred the lines of how people viewed all this. now that he's been convicted of 45 different forms of child abuse, it may be that the conspiracy of silence has been operating may evaporate. what do you think? >> well, i know that jerry sandusky's attorney got up on that podium and said he's still innocent and intends to fight this on appeal. many members of the community believe that he had no chance at a fair trial because of the attention this case got. as far back in 2011 when we first broke the story and he was under investigation, we were hearing the same things you just said. when he's charged, people will

start coming forward, the flood gates will open. and that didn't happen this time. you know, didn't happen when he was charged. so i'm not quite sure. this is a tricky situation, because he was a really high profile figure. you have a lot of emotion connected with penn state and you have a crime where historically people don't want to talk about it. so it's a trifecta of a tricky situation. >> you've done some terrific journalism on this. i congratulate you on that. i salute you and your journalism for helping bring jerry sandusky in. so well done on that. >> thank you, piers. when we come back, the impact on the victims, the community and what's next for jerry sandusky and penn state. es in 75% of your mouth, listerine cleans virtually your entire mouth. so take your oral health to a whole new level. listerine... power to your mouth.

he showed no emotion when the jury found him guilty and showed no emotion when he was led from the courthouse. jerry sandusky being convicted of 45 counts, the verdict announced late friday night. we're here with dr. drew penske and the son of former president ronald reagan. dr. drew, what is your reaction to the culmination of this trial? >> i deal with this so much, and for people that are themselves victims, this could be a day of vindication and for other kids out there who quietly suffer in silence. >> is jerry sandusky a classic pedophile predator? >> he is, to the extent that --

it depends on how you interpret what you're seeing. think about it this way. if you have a son or daughter and you find a grown man with that child in a shower, that's enough. that's all i need to know. you have somebody that is in serious trouble at that point. >> that to me was already a form of pedophilia. >> absolutely, 100%. >> i have three sports mad sons. if any of them had said to me, one of my older teachers is having naked showers with me -- >> and we hug a little bit, we soap each other up, what's the big deal? it's a massive violation of personal body boundaries. it is somebody who is in serious trouble. if you notice one of the doctors that evaluated him said he saw

serious psycho sexual problems. >> michael, we had a conversation about this, you suffered abuse when you were 8 years old at a camp. this kind of case for anyone that's been through this must bring back the sharpest of emotions. what is your feeling seeing somebody like sandusky being convicted? >> you feel vindication. you feel you tifinally may get . what happens now is he becomes our abuser, because we see a sandusky person that abused us that was never brought to trial or put behind bars and we've been carrying the burden of our sexual abuse all these many, many years. and i'm so worried that if he was found not guilty, you would find another generation of children who had been sexually abused remaining silent for fear

if they said anything, nobody would believe them. >> having been through it, what kind of courage did it take these victims to get on that stand, do you think? >> the most unbelievable amount of courage you could ever imagine. this happened to me in 1953, piers. and we're now in 2012. it's a closer time frame for them. but you are reliving what happened to you yesterday afternoon and hoping people believe you. >> drew, michael's reaction shows the depth of the scarring from these things. >> it's unbelievable. kids that age, when terrorizing things happen feel responsible. this is my fault. and the perpetrators play on that. they groom them and let them believe they're in control of this.

they believe they caused it, and then me as my sexual self, my self as a man, i have this horrible secret and there's something wrong with me. these are tremendous burdens that stay with them the rest of their life. it never fully goes away. >> michael, what are your feelings towards a man like sandusky? >> evil, just pure, pure evil. that's what these people are. people need to understand it. like you say, he didn't do anything -- walking out in the trial, didn't smile, no emotion at all. these people don't show emotion. they don't think they're guilty of anything. this is their life. >> they believe that kids do want this. >> in fact, we came on to them and we caused them to be in this situation. >> and these pedophiles cleverly construct a relationship. a lot of these boys said they would receive gifts from him.

>> you're special, you have special abilities, you're a special person, and then brings that in, in a way -- >> my parents broke up when i was 3 years of age. don taught me how to throw a football, a baseball, taught me how to trampoline. when i took second place in a yo-yo contest, i didn't think i could be a reagan and be second to neighbor. he traded in my second place for first place. my parents took that, framed it and put it above my bed at the ranch. that's where it was. and he used that to begin the process of taking me home and sexually abusing me. >> michael, thank you very much. dr. drew, thank you very much. next, the sentencing phase for jerry sandusky and what this case means for america.

jerry sandusky guilty of 45 of 48 counts after the jury deliberated for nearly 21 hours. welcome back to both of you. we talked about this case in the last few weeks. let me ask you, lisa. you've dealt with many sex cases like this in the past.

what do you think of jerry sandusky, is he a classic sexual pled for? >> absolutely. he's a sociopath. it's not that he doesn't get it, he feels nothing about this. he thinks that they've betrayed him, if he feels anything. we evidence talked about this before with you. he groomed them like a classic child sexual predator with all the things we talked about. there's also a real emotional component to you that michael reagan was talking about earlier, where they make the classic predator makes the child feel really special. and i'm the only one who recognizes how special you are, and you need me for that reason. and that becomes part of why these kids can't let go, and then there's the guilt, that they know they took those gifts and the predator plays on that, and plays on that guilt.

>> you've had to counsel kids that go through this kind of thing, the victims here obviously now adults. but what do you say to them to try to get over the experience they've had at the hands of this monster? >> it's an experience that you can't really get over, and even reliving it is retraumtization. but they should get help, and take solace in the fact that they finally brought this monster to justice and start there and give themselves time. it happened 14 years ago, their recovery is not going to happen overnight. but it's a start and they need to take it all in and get professional help and just step by step. >> and the fact that when they first came forward, they were believed by the authorities, that this jury very, very quickly in 20 hours said we believe all of you, that's going

to help them heal. victims who are believed when they first reveal what happened to them heal much better than victims that are disbelieved. >> they do, but there are layers of trauma. many victims of sexual abuse turn to drugs, anxiety. there's been many ways that their lives have been up ended. it's about putting it back together without the guilt. and to move forward from there. >> lisa, you've been involved in the serious sex crime area. clearly other people are culpable here in different degrees of severity. i think that you have a number of people around penn state, around the sporting sector, whether it was joe paterno or others, who turned a blind eye or covered up. and we've had parents that were

aware it wasn't quite right but didn't do anything. what do we do about that, do we think, looking forward, what do we do? >> i think this is an enormous opportunity for everyone that has anything to do with challenge, whether it's pools, camps, any program that deals with children to start educating the staff, the children, the parents, and we have to be proactive and get out there and tell the world about these predators, how they behaved, talk to children from the time they're young in age appropriate language. but we really have to dispel the myths and tell people the truth. there's many touch. often people think it will never happen here. there are schools, camps, places that are going. this could never happen here, but it can happen everywhere and unless people are vigilant and know the signs and then they

have the moral where withal, this is going to continue and we have an enormous opportunity because this case has been so publicized all over the world to do something important to really change this. >> very quickly, about dottie sandusky, who did take the stand and defended her husband, sort of practicing the see no, hear no, speak no evil defense. no, i didn't see or hear anything. do you think that she lied or is in denial about this? >> it's hard to say she lied. i think there is an element of denial and another aspect of her personality, maybe she's not the warm, caring individual but one who in fact is called and maybe colder than jerry sandusky in the fact that she can take in all this information, probably as much as you're talking ashlt parents being aware. she had to be aware of some

inappropriate behavior. but she had to put it away and so she was an enabler in some way. >> thank you very much. we'll be back later in the hour. up next, our talk with jeff daniels.

truth, power and the media. colliding like never before in "the newsroom." aaron sorkin gave us "west wing" and "the social network." with me now, the star and writer of the show. welcome to you both. so i was at the premiere of "the newsroom" in new york. lots of cable news anchors racing to see how accurate this was. and i think it's fair to say the general consensus was it was pretty darn accurate. people really enjoyed it. i found it -- very sort of thrilling reality check. to see it through the prism of your character, jeff. i'm curious about your motives here. i'm an unashamed "west wing" fan. it's a great privilege to have you here.

what are you trying to achieve with the cable news genre, if anything? >> i've got one goal. that's to entertain the audience for an hour. we shoot our show on stage seven. that's the same stage where they shot "the monkeys," and we're going for the exact same thing. >> are you though? because i always see underneath this stuff. you do like to make a point. some of the criticism in the reviews i've seen is not centered really around the show or jeff or anything else, it's always about sorkinisms. that this is somehow some offensive new term for the stuff you put into these shows. tell me about that. criticism you get. >> i do enjoy it. i enjoy language very much. it sounds like music to me. and enenjoy oratory.

i grew up in a family where anyone who said one word when they could have used ten just wasn't trying hard enough. and i was the dumbest kid in my family. so i'd sit at the dinner table just listening to fantastic arguments like i was watching a tennis match. i grew to really like that. i love the sound of a point really well made. of somebody saying, but you haven't thought about it this way. what if this were to happen. as a writer, i grew up just wanting to imitate that sound. >> it's a fantastic speech at the start of episode one that your character, will, makes, jeff. he's goaded by the moderator. into finally let what he really thinks. let's watch a bit of it. >> i didn't identify ourselves by who we voted for in the last election. and we didn't scare so easy. we were able to be all these things and do all these things because we were informed.

by great men. men who were revered. first step in solving any problem is recognizing there is one. america's not the greatest country in the world anymore. >> it was fascinating watching the room reaction. a lot of them sort of nodding along with that. because it was a great speech. a classic, if you don't mind me saying, sorkinism -- >> i don't mind. >> at its very best. it really made you think because you rattled off these statistics about where america's not number one anymore. made the point, it used to be a great country and it could be a great country again. right now, it's not the greatest country in the world. let me ask you a difficult question. when you said it, did you believe it yourself? >> it was interesting to do the speech, to work on the speech. that came late. there were some drafts where it wasn't there. there was something that happened at northwestern that was referred to. and then i think it was one of

the last couple of drafts before the pilot. >> last thing written. >> here comes the speech. let's see it. i remember reading it going, you may not like it, you may disagree with it, you know, for those who are patriotic and wave the flag and don't want to hear it. but there's nothing in it that's not true. and that went all the way -- each phrase, each thing that aaron has will say, it's all true. sorry to tell you, but it's true. so that really resonated with me. and to be able to say that. to be able to take words like the way this guy can put them together and throw it at the lens, throw it at an audience, it's -- for an actor, it's gold. >> i suppose critics will say you've got to live in the real world, in the sense that if you

try and do it in the purest sense, what your character does in this show, it doesn't rate, especially if it's not big breaking news. i can tell you for a hard fact, that that is true. >> but the good news is -- >> and it's hard, so how do you tackle that? >> let me say i don't have to live in the real world, i'm a fiction writer. so i get to write a democratic administration that can get things done. and i get to write about a very idealistic newsroom where these guys reach high, so they fall down a lot. there's no question that the antagonists in this show is -- doesn't come so much in the form of a person, although that's the role jane fonda plays and that's the role that chris messina plays. it's ratings.

that if we have a problem in this country with the news, it's at least as much the consumer's fault as it is the provider's fault. but the show doesn't live in the real world. it seems like it does because it's set against the backdrop of real news events. we never do fictional news on the show. it's all real. the characters are all fictional and not based on anybody. i know you're going to get to that question. but it's -- they're constantly referencing don quixote, brigadoon, camelot. its parent company is atlantis. these are all imaginary lost cities. >> let's take a short break and come back and talk more about [ bleep ].

people don't come here looking for handouts. we are a nation of strivers and climbers and entrepreneurs. the hardest working people on earth. >> president obama speaking today. i'm back now with jeff daniels and "the newsroom's" creator aaron sorkin.

hardest people on earth. is he slightly deluded, president obama? just taking up from your character's speech at the start of the first episode? are americans still the hardest working people on earth? >> well, i have no idea. i've never tested how hard other people in the world work. but it's good oratory. >> you didn't write that speech? >> no. but jon favreau, not the actor but the president's speechwriter, would tell you that barack obama is the best writer in any room that barack obama is in. i always smile when people have a problem with the teleprompter. he's the guy who wrote what's on the teleprompter. >> yeah. let's watch how this speech goes on. it's quite interesting what he then says. >> and nobody personified these american values, these american traits, more than the latino community.

>> shameless. i would have thought. again, you could expect that to pop up in "the west wing" at some stage as a campaign message. for a president to be standing there today, deliberately pandering like that to the latino community at a latino conference. >> right. >> am i being too cynical here? >> no, no, of course you're not. listen, he's at a latino conference. governor romney spoke there yesterday. i think. and they both need the latino vote. but i will say that i -- it's -- it's nicer hearing that than hearing about the lazy mexicans who come here who are draining our resources. selling drugs and shooting guns. you get up at 6:00 in the morning and see who's waiting at the bus stops. any time a new hotel opens in town, see who's snaking around the block three times waiting for a job.

>> have you ruined it basically for every american president by making bartlett so likable, principled and everything else that he was? have you basically ruined -- do all of them now get unfairly compared to bartlett? i've seen polls that bartlett would have made president time and again. >> again, i have the benefit of fiction. i don't just get to decide what bartlett says. i get to decide what everybody else says and does too. it's a lot easier for bartlett than for a real president. >> jeff, what is it like to work as an actor with someone like aaron's words? because he famously -- strides over everything himself. this is absolutely his stamp on almost every word you will be in the end acting. >> every word, yeah. you memorize every word. that's the drill. i was doing a movie with meryl streep once. "the hours." we were going to walk through a doorway.

the director said -- they said, meryl, just say a couple things coming through the door. she said, what, i have to write it too? i've never heard an actor say that. you had david harris sitting there. he came up with two lines. why do i have to write it? that's how i feel. you've got aaron sorkin. a singular voice. you don't have a committee. you don't have executives. you don't have three or four writers on it. he's got every word on it. >> the same token, when i'm writing it, i get to know that jeff is going to be playing it. that emily's going to be playing it. john gallagher, sam waterston. that these people are going to be playing it. you don't need a half panel speech here. it's going to happen on jeff's face when he lights the cigarette. >> i read an interview with you, it was after the drug bust thing that happened to you. you were talking about you liked to just disappear on your own. at the time, it would be with drugs. but you wanted to go to vegas on

your own rather than go with other people. just have a night in a clean hotel room as you put it. that is a strange thing to do. why do you like that solitude? >> well, i liked it then because of the drug use. i didn't party with other people. i never did drugs with other people. i only did it by myself. now solitude is about writing. because so much of that process is thinking about what you're going to write before you write it. and i'm also a father now. so, you know, when i'm not working, i like to spend my time with my daughter. >> did you, like the beatles, did your best stuff on the drugs? >> you know what, i don't -- the last thing i want to do is make drugs sound good to anybody. bill maher once said drugs sure haven't heard his record collection. and i don't think i did do my best stuff while i was high.

even if i had, if i was writing at shakespeare level high and the hackiest hack level straight, i'll take not being high and a hack. >> have you arrived at a good place in your life now do you think? >> yeah -- >> the hard way maybe but you have? >> i'm the luckiest guy in the world. like i said, i love being a father. i get paid to do exactly what i love doing. exactly what i love to do for free. and i get to work with the greatest people in my industry. >> without being too intrusive here, according to the photographs i saw after the premiere, you are dating a beautiful woman from "sex in the city," is this true? >> every so often -- i am a single man. but every so often an otherwise brilliant woman will have a short lapse of judgment and agree to go out on a date with me and that's what happened with

kristin davis who was nice enough to be my date for the l.a. premiere the other night. >> you make a very nice couple. >> thanks. we'll see what happens. >> thank you so much. >> thank you. >> sunday on hbo at 10:00 p.m. it's a terrific show. thank you, gentlemen. but it's time for your medicine, okay? you ready? one, two, three. [ both ] ♪ emma, emma bo-bemma ♪ banana-fana-fo-femma ♪ fee-fi-fo-femma ♪ em-ma very good sweety, how do you feel? good. yeah? you did a really good job, okay? [ female announcer ] to nurses everywhere, thank you, from johnson & johnson.

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jerry sandusky is guilty. the former assistant football coach was convicted of 45 of 48 counts of child abuse and the jury deliberated for nearly 21 hours. a huge cheer went up from the crowd when they heard the news. jerry sandusky was led away in handcuffs. he showed no emotion when he walked by the cameras. he's in jail and will likely spend the rest of his life in prison. sentencing is 90 days away. his attorney says he plans to appeal the verdict. again, former penn state assistant football coach convicted of 45 of 48 counts. jerry sandusky is guilty as charged. that's all for us tonight.

"ac 360" starts right now. our goal here has always been to bring about a fair and a just result in this case. that goal has been accomplished. >> listening to linda kelly, the pennsylvania attorney general making comments on the courthouse steps. it is now 11:00 in the east coast of the united states. want to bring you up to date. former penn state assistant football coach jerry sandusky led from a courthouse in handcuffs. these the images we saw about 20 minutes ago. their lead defense attorney joe amendola, said he would be shocked if his client was acquitted. in fact, they convicted him on 45 of the 4 counts he was charged with. 45 of the 48 charges he was charged with. sentences could come any time within the next 90 days. if the verdict stands, this man

who earned and betrayed the trust of so many children will likely die in prison. as we said, sentencing will be within 90 days. we have a number of legal analysts who are joining us. mark gerigos from the defense side. marcia clark, as well. we have reporters jason carroll, susan candy all of whom have been covering this trial from the beginning. there you see, jerry sandusky in a police car about to be taken off to local jail where the rest of his life, as we said, his new life, has begun. his new life in confinement. momentarily, we expect to speak to an attorney for at least one of the victims who testified in this trial. there were 10 alleged victims, eight of whom we heard the testimony of in this relatively short trial. also relatively short deliberations. 21 hours for some 48 counts in all.