health care. today, the supreme court upheld his signature legislation. the president acknowledged as much when he spoke shortly after the ruling came down. >> i know the debate over this law has been divisive. i respect the very real concerns that millions of americans have shared. >> so, what will today's health care decision mean in the election? joining me now, massachusetts governor duval patrick. welcome, governor. i suppose it's an interesting day, isn't it? it's obviously a very big -- >> it's a good day, piers. >> right, it's a good day. could it backfire in the longer term the election? could this now galvanize the republican base vote to come out and cause you bigger problems than the success is worth enjoying in the short term? >> well, let me say first, piers, something that may cause you and maybe some of your more cynical viewers to roll their eyes. the victory today is not a political victory. it's a victory for the american people. it's a victory for the 30 million people who have no health care. for the 130 million who have a

pre-existing condition or who are at risk of going bankrupt. or were at risk of going bankrupt if they were seriously ill. it's a victory for all of the young adults who are able to stay on their parent's health insurance plans till the age of 26. this does a lot of good for a lot of americans. in the same way that the model for it here in massachusetts did a lot of good and does a lot good today for our citizens here at home. so that's the first thing. and that's important first and foremost to the president and to me. politically, i think what you see is the republicans, once again, are demonstrating that their only plan and their only agenda is to say no when the president says yes. it's true of health care. it's also true of his jobs plan. it's true of deficit reduction. whole host of things. so that choice, which is not a neutral policy choice, it's really about, are we in this together? are we going to do what's

necessary to lift the country? versus what congressional republicans have been driving. which is to tear each other apart. and tear the country down. i think is more and more on display for the american people to choose. i think the american people will choose wisely. >> now, i come from a country where free health care for all is a given. so i've always found this kind of an odd debate. that 30 million people more could be covered by this. and there's so much anger about it. it seems alien thing to me. i understand today the way the republicans are now trying to reframe this, having suffered obviously a loss today, is this question of it becoming now a tax, not a penalty. they're saying it's going to cost the american public $500 billion in taxtaxation. what do you say to this charge now? it's just a new tax? >> well, two things i would say. first of all, i think it was the congressional budget office that projects that health care reform, the affordable health care act actually reduces the

deficit by hundreds of billions of dollars. that it doesn't added a costs, that it actually reduces costs. the fact is that health care costs across the country are too high and have been getting too high and by sharing the exposure, if you will, across all of the population, we will see nationally what we see here at home in massachusetts, that those costs are moderating and going down. so there's going to be a good, in that respect, in that fiscal or financial respect as well. i think the republicans have tried every which way to sort of misrepresent what health care reform is about. instead of really defending the indefensible. the status quo is not perfectly fine, piers. health is a public good. that's what the president is standing for. and his belief that everyone ought to have access to adequate care.

and this is not -- >> let me just jump in there. we're in a curious position. where the public look at this and they go, well, hang on a second, president obama himself before he was president opposed this. mitt romney brought in romney care in your state. >> yes. >> and you yourself say the list of horrors he came up with never materialized. how do you explain to the public that the president didn't agree with it? given that you're trying to attack mitt romney for bringing a version of it in your state which apparently has done a lot of good? >> well, the thing the president didn't agree with is the same thing i was skeptical about. that's the so-called individual mandate. but i get it. i get the idea. it's a basically sort of old-fashioned insurance idea. which is you spread the risk as broadly as possible so you bring down the costs for everybody.

it's been an essential part of the success here in massachusetts. i think the president understood that, having seen, of all of the different experiments that are considered and debated in public policy, there's one that's actually been tried. we tried something here in massachusetts. we've tried something nationally. and the supreme court has affirmed the authority of congress to try something. i'm excited about that. >> governor, thank you very much for joining me. >> thanks for having me. more now on our big story. rick santorum's made no secret of his opposition to obama care. he said today, quote, the outcome is a worst of all scenarios. welcome back, senator, how are you? >> i'm doing well, piers, how are you? >> so eye guess you're foaming at the mouth with blind rage, are you? >> well, how about feeling very, very sad about what this means for our country but frankly very

excited that the battle is joined and it will be a battle between now and november and the stakes are very clear. that we now have a system that is going to make every single american dependent in one way another on the federal government for their health care. the reason we separated from you folks over across the pond. because we didn't want to be ruled by people who had that kind of control over us. president obama feels very comfortable in that elite air he breathes in the white house of making decisions for everybody. average americans are now going to make the decision whether they want that or not. >> just referring to my little place across the pond. of course, over there, everybody gets entitled to free health care. what is wrong with that in principle? what's wrong with a great country like america -- >> -- gets that health care as you all know. there's a big difference. saying you get health care and actually getting the kind of care that you need when you need it. and we've seen this with socialized medicine not just in the uk but in every other place that has tried it.

it is absoluteabsoluteily inetho what the principles of our country are all about where government is telling everybody what they can't have and what they can't have and how . much they're going to pay for it and you must do it and if you don't the irs is going to track you down. this is not america. this is not what this country -- founded and made it great and we're going to have an election all about that in the fall. >> now, you described romney care in massachusetts as the model for obama care. this is back in february. you said that the base on the very same foundation -- some respects governor romney's plan is even worse. you went on to say, therefore, i'll repeal it. wow, you said, what a big difference. i'm for government running your life. only out of the state capital, not the nation's capital. how awkward is it for you that the guy that won the republican

race and now has to take on barack obama, what you sense is a vulnerable area, is the guy that basically inspired the whole plan to start with? >> well here's what i know. i know that if barack obama is re-elected president, obama care will be implemented because he will veto anything that weakens that law. i also know governor romney has given up the pledge that he will sign to appeal obamacare and do whatever he can to weaken the law. so that's the clear choice for me. the issues that i was bringing up during the campaign were really campaign issues. not issues as to who would happen if governor romney actually got elected president or not. i think he's made it very clear what he wants to accomplish is to repeal obama care. trust me, we will hold him at that word. i believe he will keep it. >> yeah, but here's the problem. you know, he's the guy that came up with the brilliant answer to health care problems in massachusetts.

a big state in america. it was called a mandate. moment barack obama comes up with the same idea, he slams it as disgraceful and the end of the world as we know it. you can't really sustain that as a creditcredible position, can you? i salute you, mr. president? >> well, i think what you're seeing is it hasn't worked in massachusetts. health care costs in massachusetts are number one in the country. they have a series of problems with people who decide to take the tax, in other words, pay the fine, instead of buying insurance, because it's cheap cheaper. particularly younger and healthier people who are dropping out of the system. it doesn't work. what does work is free people, free markets, bottom-up solutions. that's what makes america great. >> okay, okay, final question. final question.

if it was such a catastrophic disaster, romney care, why should we elect him as president of the united states, if he on his fundamental point, got it horribly wrong? >> well, i would just say this. what he said is they did some things right. they did some things wrong. he learned from those mistakes. i'm using his language. this is something he would oppose. that he would repeal. and let me assure you that republicans from the house and senate will be chomping at the bit to do just that if we're successful in november. >> final question. you believe this will re-energize the tea party who have been on the back burner a bit. do you believe this is exactly the kind of issue that will galvanize them back into the action? >> i don't think there's any question. i mean, i feel frankly very re-energized. i was stunned by the decision. very disappointed in chief justice roberts who just pulled

this out of thin air in an attempt to understand the attempt to not inject himself into the political realm but going and rewriting the health care bill which is what he did in this decision is more than injecting himself. it was a mistake. and it needs to be corrected. at the voting booth. and i think people will be energized to do just that. >> senator, always good to talk to you, thank you very much. >> my pleasure, piers. thank you. patrick kennedy's a former congressman. a health care activist. and the son of the late senator ted kennedy. listen to what house minority leader nancy pelosi said today about the senator. >> we called it the great unfinished business of our country, of our society. i knew that when he left us, he would go to heaven and help pass the bill it inspiring one way or another.

and now he can rest in peace. joined now by patrick kennedy. patrick, how do you think your father would have felt today? >> well, i think he would have been thrilled that not just members of congress have guaranteed health care anymore but that all the constituents that elected him now have access to health care, that members of congress are fully happy to have. my father saw it as simply a matter hypocrisy. that these people who are criticizing health care take government funded health care themselves. and he just thought it was a matter of fairness. and he thought it was a moral issue. it was about whether we wanted to treat others the way we ourselves would want to be treated. and i recall that what made him really so passionate about this was when my brother ted had bone cancer and my father and mother had to worry about whether he

was going to survive but they didn't have to worry about whether they would get the health care that he needed. but they saw other families going through the heartache of not only hoping that their loved one got better but were worried about being bankrupt in the process and i think that's what rubbed my father so against his sense of compassion and social justice and it's what fueled his effort to fight for this, for his whole lifetime. and keep in mind, piers, he worked with senator hatch. he did work with then governor romney of massachusetts. he was always anxious to work across party lines because he always felt this was in the best interest of the nation. as governor patrick said earlier, i think everybody will benefit because you get the efficiencies of having everybody in the system in which case you can really implement health care. which today we don't have a

health care system. we have a sick care system, which means people oent get care when they get sick and that's not really both cost effective and it's certainly not humane if we look at the system as it is today. >> were you shocked that justice roberts -- chief justice roberts was the deciding vote today? >> i was shocked that he was just the deciding vote and that kennedy, you know, also didn't join him. it was also something that was a lot of commentary. but process is what it is. at the end of the day, i think it's individual families who get stuck in jobs who don't want to change jobs because they are worried about losing their health care or who are really on the margins, who are trying to get health insurance but can't because of a pre-existing condition. all of those families are going to sleep a little bit better knowing that in the future this is one less worry. now, i understand, you know, my

former colleague rick santorum before me said that, you know, people are going to be -- you know, have this worry about government run this. well, it was the insurance industry that's unregulated that was running people's health care lives before and i don't know how many people feel really good about hmos, that as much as they pay for their premiums, whenever they needed health care, insurance company's business model was to say no. and i think that's the real issue here. it's not a question of, you know, whether people are going to pay because they are paying already for health premiums. and those health premiums are going up. what this is about is, let's get people the coverage that they are paying for and right now it's about government stepping in and making sure that insurance companies aren't going to continue to profit off of other people's misfortune and when they need health care, denying them that health care because that's how they make a profit. i salute the president for standing up for really the

largest mass of american people who, you know, are worried every day about getting sick because they are worried about it bankrupting them. president obama didn't have to worry about health care. my dad didn't have to worry about health care. mitt romney doesn't have to worry about health care. it's the average american who's worried because they are worried about a catastrophic illness putting them in the poor house and i think that's not american and i think the supreme court up held really what is in the best interest of this country today. >> patrick kennedy, thank you very much, indeed. coming up, three people who know the supreme court better than just about anybody else. what do they think happened behind closed doors? [ male announcer ] don't miss red lobster's four course seafood feast, just $14.99. start with soup, salad and cheddar bay biscuits then choose one of 7 entrees plus dessert! four perfect courses, just $14.99. come into red lobster and sea food differently.

[ male announcer ] ok, so you're no marathon man. but thanks to the htc one x from at&t, with its built in beats audio, every note sounds amazingly clear. ...making it easy to get lost in the music... and, well... rio vista?!! [ male announcer ] ...lost. introducing the musically enhanced htc one x from at&t. rethink possible.

introducing the musically enhanced htc one x from at&t. good afternoon. chase sapphire. (push button tone) this is stacy from springfield. oh woah. hello? yes. i didn't realize i'd be talking to an actual person. you don't need to press "0" i'm here. reach a person, not a prompt whenever you call chase sapphire. when it comes to home insurance, surprises can be a little scary. and a little costly. that's why the best agents present their clients with a lot of options. because when it comes to what's covered and what's not, nobody likes surprises. [ click ] [ chuckles ] we totally thought --

[ all scream ] obscure space junk falling from the sky? we cover that. moving on. aah, aah, aah, aah. [ male announcer ] we are insurance. ♪ we are farmers ♪ bum, ba-da-bum, bum, bum, bum ♪ the highest court in the land has spoken. we will continue to implement this law. we'll work together to improve on it where we can. but what we won't do, what the country can't afford to do, is refight the political battles of two years ago or go back to the way things were. >> president obama's big victory on health care. joining me now is tom goldstein. he's argued over two dozen cases before the supreme court. and david ripken who represented 26 states that challenged obama

care. and jonathan turley, professor of law at george washington university. let's start with you, david ripken. you must have been shocked. >> i was surprised. i think it's useful to point out the majority of the court actually overturned the statute as written by congress. what they've done is rewrote the statute in two key respects and up he upheld their own product. so it has both good parts. it struck down the legal theories, the constitutional theories, that were so dangerous. namely, commerce clause. what unfortunately, the court has done after that is rewrite the individual mandate as a tax. and rewrite the medical provision as somehow giving the states choice. so it's a mixed bag and i was surprised indeed but it has a lot of good things for us and certainly not a victory for the obama administration. >> tom goldstein, would you go along with that?

it seemed to me the media were all caught pretty much by surprise. this went against the perceived wisdom. there was a kind of reframing by the supreme court of the entire debate because the obama administration had never really pushed, look, this is going to be a tax. how do you think this is all going to play out now? >> well, on the bottom line, people felt the statute was in trouble because the oral argument seemed to go badly for the obama administration. so that was the shock. the majority of the supreme court voted to uphold the statute. it's very hard to cast this as a loss for the obama administration. all the critical pieces of the statute are constitutional and upheld. david's absolutely right. there's some pieces to a tool kit that conservatives can use in later decisions. there are limitations here on excesses by congress that could be significant. but for today and for the next several years, this is just across the board win nearly. >> jonathan turley, as professor of law on the panel tonight, from the legal perspective

purely, do you think the supreme court acted correctly? >> well, i have mixed feelings about it, quite frankly. i favor national health care. but i shared the views, the concerns over federalism. i'm a big supporter of federalism. and i have a column coming out in the morning in "usa today" saying that i felt this opinion did great harm to federalism. what happened is chief justice roberts really uplifted federalism. he said that you can't base this law on the commerce clause. and in that sense people like david were vindicated. but then he said you can do all of that under the tax authority. and what that does, in my view, is it reduces federalism to a type of line. it's very impressive the way chief justice described it. then he showed how you can just get around it. more importantly, when you look at the tax power, it lacks all the limiting principles that was

so obviously missing for federalism. and so some of us were left scratching our head of, all right, so what's the limiting principle again on the tax issue? he says that the federal government can use this functional approach of the court and can use taxes, even simply to influence the conduct of citizens. that's pretty breathtaking. and so for people who are advocates of federalism, there's a sense of betrayal here. that this was a friend who may have harped federalism significantly. >> david rivkin. is what we've seen today, led by chief justice roberts, is it a form of judicial activism do you think? >> it is a form of judicial activism. i think all three of us agree that chief roberts wrote the statute to save it. but, again, the statute upheld

was not the statute that congress passed. but i'm more optimistic. for a simple reason. there are limited principles associated with the tax power. from now on, no politician who enacts or tries to enact a mandate accompanied by this kind of a penalty will be able to maintain as president obama. speaker pelosi and harry reid. that this is not a tax. all they paid a high political price. for fr now on, that would be associated with the tax provisions. they have to originate in the house and i'm not convinced that that would not be a future case where this kind of tax would be struck as a direct tax if not a portion. the court majority kind of brushes by this but this is, by no means, resolved.

>> okay. now i have to leave it. thank you very much. i appreciate you joining me. next, the president won the battle but will he lose the war when it comes to the election? we'll battle it out when we come back. it's very important to understand how math and science kind of makes the world work. in high school, i had a physics teacher by the name of mr. davies. he made physics more than theoretical, he made it real for me. we built a guitar,

we did things with electronics and mother boards. that's where the interest in engineering came from. so now, as an engineer, i have a career that speaks to that passion. thank you, mr. davies.

whatever the politics, today's decision was a victory for people all over this country. whose lives will be more secure because of this law and the supreme court's decision to uphold it. >> our mission is clear. if we want to get rid of obama care, we're going to have to replace president obama. my mission is to make sure we do exactly that. >> supreme court decision was the good news for the president today. a clear case of you win some, you lose some. attorney general holder was held in contempt by the house over the fast and furious gun running sting. what does all this mean? here to talk about it, ryan liza, washington correspondent for "the new yorker." katie pavish, news editor for the town hall. and author of "fast and furious." and charles blo. welcome to you all. ryan, let me start with you. you've heard all of the people tonight giving your views. what is your overview of who's

the winner today? >> i think in situations like this, you probably don't want to get too cute and counterintuitive. one of the candidates running for president wanted the supreme court to uphold this law. one did not. so to me, the clear winner is obama. and his administration. this is obviously the most significant thing he's done in his first 3 1/2 years. and i don't read much into the opinion that even, you know, conservative legal types should be cheered by -- it seems that whatever the court took away with the commerce clause, they gave back with roberts' interpretation of the taxing authority. and i don't really see any future obama or democratic policies that would be affected or circumscribed by the way the commerce clause was interpreted. i think it's a pretty significant victory for obama. one caveat. the romney campaign just got a jolt of excitement and enthusiasm. he has now defined this election as not just about the economy but about repealing obama care

if he's elected. i think that matters for something. the fact that conservatives are rallying behind romney anew is probably a good thing for him. >> yeah, i mean, katie pavlish, there's no doubt that's happening. the romney campaign said today they raised $2.7 million, maybe as i'm speaking going to $2.9 million, since this happened this morning. clearly, the right is being excited by this. and feels this is going to give them momentum to have a new vote winning strategy based on repealing this. >> i think so. let's not forget the issue of obama care, although it's a win for president obama today in the short term this wasn't a partisan thing. it wasn't just republicans who didn't like obama care. independents especially in swing states wanted the entire bill repealed. so although the supreme court disagrees with them on that, this does give them an alternative to president obama,

saying that romney, on his first day, he said he's going to repeal this. and i don't want to be stuck with president obama in the second term who has given me a bill i don't want in the first place. and that now is a permanent thing unless we have a getting republicans 60 seats. what was the key topic in that election? it was obama care. so people -- i heard you mention it in the begin of your show. that the tea party's kind of been dormant. well, that's not true. they had a huge role in the wisconsin recall. now that they have a bigger ground game, you can expect to siem so of the same results in november. the tea party taking action on this. >> charles blow, it's clearly a good day for barack obama. a day he wasn't expecting. put it into context here. the fact the republicans are raising so much money on the back of this. clearly their base is getting rallied. does that really matter? or is what happened today one of the reasons that so many people voted for barack obama in the

first place? >> absolutely. think the last part of your question is exactly the right way. this is a huge win for barack obama. you can't cut this any other way than that. nothing succeeds in america like success. and he has exceeded not only in passing this law but in defending it in court. the republican establishment has been trying for some time now to try to cast barack obama as delegitimate in some way. this was a big part of that. that he had overreached. that he had gone beyond the law and the constitution. and what today's ruling says is that he has not overreached. that this is well within the confines of the constitution. this is not a president who is delegitimizing the american structure. that he is, in fact, working within the confines of the constitution to improve the country and, in this particular case, by making us healthier as

a whole. i think that part keeps getting lost in this. which is that, you know, we can't be a competitive force in the world unless we are better educated and healthier than we are now. the parts that are going the fast rest the part that are most likely not to be covered by health insurance. that is huge for barack obama. both in historical terms and also in the short term. when we talk about, you know, most of the country doesn't like -- would like to repeal the health care act or don't like it what those polls also include are a lot of people who think the health care act should have actually gone further than it went. they are not necessarily saying we think it went too far. every time someone mixes those two things up, they're being very disingenuous and playing around with numbers. >> piers, let me just add one thing -- >> charles, let me just hold you all there.

take a short break. i can actually see katie's lips pursing in fury. when we come back, i want to ask you, katie, why. the weather pat. i upgraded to the new sprint direct connect. so i can get three times the coverage. [ chirp ] [ manager 2 ] it's like working in a giant sandbox with all these huge toys. and with the fastest push-to-talk... i can keep track of them all. [ chirp ] [ chirp ] [ male announcer ] upgrade to the new "done." with access to the fastest push-to-talk and three times the coverage. now when you buy one kyocera duracore rugged phone, for $49.99, you'll get four free. visit a sprint store, or call 855-878-4biz. [ chirp ]

visit a sprint store, or call 855-878-4biz. agents, say hello to the biggest hailstone in u.s. history. oh, that will leave a dent. which is exactly why we educate people... about comprehensive coverage. yep. the right choice now can pay off later. looks like a bowling ball. yeah. oh! agents, say hello to the second-biggest hailstone in u.s. history. [ announcer ] we are insurance. ♪ we are farmers bum-pa-dum, bum-bum-bum-bum ♪

back with me to talk more about health care. katie, i left on a cliffhanger of your pursed lips. what was rocking your boat there? >> well, piers, you mentioned president obama's promises when he ran for office in the first place. he promised not to raise taxes on anyone making more than $250,000 a year. he broke that promise by implementing obama care. we're going to see, as you already mentioned, $500 billion in taxes.

the biggest tax hike in american history. 14,000 new irs agents harassing americans because they can't keep their plan that president obama promised they could keep. 11 million americans who have a plan with their employer now will no longer have a plan. youth unemployment is going to go through the roof because employers aren't going to want to hire short-term workers because they're now required to provide health insurance. so speaking of promises, president obama has broken more of them than he's kept because of this health care ruling. >> okay. ryan lizza, what do you think of that? >> i don't think i could fact check every one of those. the one thing the court said today that puts obama in a little bit of a bind is they have -- they basically said to congress, look, don't play games. if something's going to be a tax, call it a tax. the court has emphasized that this payment that you will now

have to make or penalty if you don't have health insurance is indeed a tax. the problem with that politically in terms of the romney campaign coming back very strong on that is we all know romney did the same thing in massachusetts. i was a little surprised earlier, piers. you had rick santorum on there. he did not hold back in just blasting romney's massachusetts health care law. so it tells you a little bit that this debate is not as clear as, you know, romney might want it to be in the general election. and, frankly, we'll see in the coming weeks if romney keeps coming back to this or not. up till today, republican leaders and romney specifically didn't really want to talk about anything but the economy for some very good reasons. if romney's going to win this race, it's going to be on the economy. and i wonder if the romney campaign stays with this attack on obama's health care law -- >> let's go to -- let me go to charles blow.

looks like you're ready to blow appropriately. this is the crux of it, isn't it? the problem for mitt romney -- the governor of massachusetts, which is the state where romney care was brought in, say actually it's been rather good, the state of massachusetts. probably using it as an example of what a good steward he was when he was there. and what a good idea it was. but he's boxed himself into a corner. with rick santorum. the whole thing didn't really work out. he wished he hadn't really done it. therefore he can attack obama. it's not a very credible position, is it? >> i think mitt romney at this point has a chair in every corner of the room. he's boxed himself into every possible corner and every possible issue. romney care is only one of those issues. and getting back to the people who may, you know, the idea of taxing people because they do not buy into the health care, the people who don't have health insurance are the strongest of obama's supporters.

these are the poorest people in america. the large segment of them are a minorities in america. a large segment of them are young people in america. if you look at any poll, these are the people who have the strongest levels of support for barack obama. so it is so disingenuous for people on the right who are not even in this category, to then throw up their hands in a huff and say, oh, this is a tax. this is a tax they're not even going to have to pay. they're not even subject to this. the very people who all of the republican policies basically take a knock at is ridiculous. >> katie, you are ridiculous apparently. >> i'm ridiculous and disingenuous, right? look, this is a tax. and considering only 53% of people in this country pay a federal income tax and now are going to be paying into this obama care tax, which you just

called not a tax. >> who said that -- no, no -- >> you said that. yes, you did. you said it's not a tax. >> don't be putting words into somebody else's mouth. >> you said this was -- >> -- and then you can go and say whatever you want to say. >> -- you said this was not a tax. the supreme court ruled today it was -- >> who said it wasn't a tax? i never said it wasn't a tax. please -- >> not to mention -- >> the truth will set you free -- >> okay, i will talk to you about the facts if you stop interrupting me. >> no, if you say a fact, you can say that but if you try to put words in my mouth, that's not going to work. >> the supreme court said today also that states can opt out of certain medicaid plans. which cover the people who you're discussing. if you really want to talk about it the supreme court ruled on that. the states don't have to comply with these federal standard of medicaid without the federal government, you know, intimidating them, saying they're no longer going to get coverage. now, going back to point, republicans shouldn't be championing health care and all of this for minorities and poor people -- >> i didn't say they shouldn't be. >> the way you do that is not

through the -- >> i didn't say that -- >> stop interrupting meg. >> you're not going to say things that are not true on the air and attribute them to me and expect me to stay silently by -- >> i'm not speaking to you. i'm speaking to people listening. i'm not talking to you, mr. blow. >> not going to happen. >> back to the point of -- you don't do this through the government. we've already seen our premiums rise which affects young people. it affects minoritminorities. and the people just on the bubble of being able to get health care in the first place can no longer afford it. for this to be called the affordable care act is in your words disingenuous. >> no, you're disingenuous. >> i'm afraid chief justice morgan is going to have to rule at this stage. we've run out of time. i rather like the dynamic we're creating tonight between the various campaigners. i'm sure we'll have you both back maybe to act as some kind of moderator but thank you for a lively debate, all three of you. >> thank you, piers.

>> thank you, all, very much. appreciate it. next, you heard what rielle hunter told me last night. she said she thought john edwards was temporarily insane. i'll ask top doctors how that sounds to them.

fever, fatigue, cough, or sores. you should not start humira if you have any kind of infection. if you're tired of going around in circles, get headed in a new direction. ask your gastroenterologist about humira today. remission is possible. ♪ ♪ [ male announcer ] we believe you're at your best when you can relax and be yourself. and at thousands of newly refreshed holiday inn hotels,

you always can. holiday inn. stay you. and now stay rewarded with vacation pay. stay two weekend nights and get a $75 prepaid card.

>> there is no humble us over what she has gone through. >> there is a reluctance on her part to accept the bleeding obvious. if you are starting an affair with the famous married politician, there is a sense of responsibility that goes with that. it was not a moral judgment so much as surely must see that you have some responsibility but she didn't want to have any.

>> that is narcissism. not wanting to take responsibility, not wanting anything and clique. >> they were both narcissus? >> very much. what did you make of it. a lot of women found her disagree. men are more sympathetic, i guess. >> because she is attracted. clearly she is very angry. she is defensive, she makes excuses both herself and for john edwards. and she doesn't really feel sorry at all for what happened. she is sorry she is misunderstood picture is sorry that she is unpopular. she is angry about it. but she does not believe that what she did was wrong because for her, it was something good. it lead to something good. that is why people don't like her because she is not taking responsibility for the pain that she caused. it is not believable.

she is obvious about what she is. >> this is one of the more remarkable moments last night when she was discussing birth control. close watch this whose idea was it not to use birth control? >> we were both adults. we did not use birth control. >> why? >> we were in love. >> what does that have to do with it. the guys going to be president. he wants to be. this seems extraordinary. these little details. what you thinking. >> we want. clearly. >> i found that breathtaking. the idea that the explanation, if the explanation had been we did not use birth control because we were about teenagers, you have to believe it. the fact of the excuses we were adults? >> idea with parents and affairs, a lot of the fares,

within couples. you heat it on the head. if that was an immature young girl, and that is also what john edwards was, he was an amateur young adolescents man in that a fair. >> i completely agree. i absolutely agree. and i don't question whether she was in love or even john edwards was in love. they are in last and they were selfish. acting like teenagers because they were mentally teenagers. here is another thought. perhaps she liked the idea of getting pregnant. she wanted something that basically made the statement that their relationship was real and allen. she might have liked the idea. on some level. >> one of the things that came through was that i have been informed as a matter of fact that the reason of the last few days, the kids of john edwards, especially his older daughter,

they knew the affairs would be revealed in this book, casting aspersions on their father. shocking she could do thinking there were three children greeting their mother, don't you think? >> yes, but what about john edwards not coming all the way claim to his kids? you know what? that is the problem with a narcissist. they think they can control it. she thinks she can control the media. you don't feed the beast a little bit at a time. they will buy your head of ethics >> thank you very much. coming next, only in america has the perfect way to prevent a spouse from cheating. if you're watching, this 1 is for you. >>what? >>sorry. he wants you to know about priceline's new express deals. it's a faster way to get a great hotel deal without bidding. pick one with a pool, a gym,

a great guest rating. >>and save big. >>thanks negotiator. wherever you are. ya, no. he's over here. >>in the refrigerator? [ engine turns over ] [ male announcer ] we created the luxury crossover

and kept turning the page, this is the next chapter for the rx and lexus. this is the pursuit of perfection. this is the next chapter for the rx and lexus. agents, say hello to the biggest hailstone in u.s. history. oh, that will leave a dent. which is exactly why we educate people... about comprehensive coverage. yep. the right choice now can pay off later. looks like a bowling ball. yeah. oh! agents, say hello to the second-biggest hailstone in u.s. history. [ announcer ] we are insurance. ♪ we are farmers bum-pa-dum, bum-bum-bum-bum ♪

for tonight's only in america, a sure-fire way to stay faithful. more than 20% of all american men will commit adultery. as we saw from my interview last night, it can have devastating consequences, not the least of which use insanity. >> he was not in his right mind when he did that. he was all over the place. he was temporarily insane. >> adultery cost edwards his presidential run, his marriage, and is larry. didn't play all that well for her either.

>> what do you think your public perception is right now? >> destroyer. dillon, evil. all of that. >> but help is on hand for all potential adulterer's with this new device. the nt team wearing. there is an ingredient on the side when it is looked on at least an imprint. it reads simply i am mary. if he takes out the ring and claims he is single, his wedding finger will have a line. the website has a lifetime guarantee and it cost just $550. given the cost of john edwards and his adultery seems an absolute bargain. that's all for us tonight. ac 360 starts now. fossett a big day for the court behind me. and especially for millions of americans without health insurance. we're not losing track of them tonight. because health care reform which the supreme court affirmled today was president obama's accomplishment. comes in the middle of the

campaign. the political dimension is more than just avoidable. it is epic. few expected the individual mandate, that people buy health insurance or pay a penalty, would survive. fewer still expected thief justice john roberts to save it. he latched on to the penalty part. calling it a tax and deeming that constitutionally kosher. >> i know the debate over this law has been ddivisive. i respect the very real concerns americans have shared. i know a lot of coverage through this health care debate has focused on what it means politically. it should be clear by now i didn't do this because it was good politics. >> president obama today. here's mitt romney. >> i disagree with the supreme court's decision. i agree with the dissent. what the court did not do on its